All of Russia's Porsches Were Bricked By a Mysterious Satellite Outage (autoblog.com) 117
An anonymous reader shared this report from Autoblog:
Imagine walking out to your car, pressing the start button, and getting absolutely nothing. No crank, no lights on the dash, nothing. That's exactly what happened to hundreds of Porsche owners in Russia last week. The issue is with the Vehicle Tracking System, a satellite-based security system that's supposed to protect against theft. Instead, it turned these Porsches into driveway ornaments.
The issue was first reported at the end of November, with owners reporting identical symptoms of their cars refusing to start or shutting down soon after ignition. Russia's largest dealership group, Rolf, confirmed that the problem stems from a complete loss of satellite connectivity to the VTS. When it loses its connection, it interprets the outage as a potential theft attempt and automatically activates the engine immobilizer.
The issue affects all models and engine types, meaning any Porsche equipped with the system could potentially disable itself without warning. The malfunction impacts Porsche models dating back to 2013 that have the factory VTS installed... When the VTS connection drops, the anti-theft protocol kicks in, cutting fuel delivery and locking down the engine completely.
The issue was first reported at the end of November, with owners reporting identical symptoms of their cars refusing to start or shutting down soon after ignition. Russia's largest dealership group, Rolf, confirmed that the problem stems from a complete loss of satellite connectivity to the VTS. When it loses its connection, it interprets the outage as a potential theft attempt and automatically activates the engine immobilizer.
The issue affects all models and engine types, meaning any Porsche equipped with the system could potentially disable itself without warning. The malfunction impacts Porsche models dating back to 2013 that have the factory VTS installed... When the VTS connection drops, the anti-theft protocol kicks in, cutting fuel delivery and locking down the engine completely.
Noviye Russkiye jokes aside, (Score:5, Interesting)
what happens if a Westerner drives his Porsche into a tunnel (they have those in Germany, for instance) or parks in an underground garage?
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I suspect this is something of a "takes a while to kick in".
Still makes little sense. Porches aren't really daily driver cars, they're leisure cars. So you put one in a garage for winter, and it won't start in the spring until you tow it outside?
Re: Noviye Russkiye jokes aside, (Score:5, Insightful)
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This does in fact concern both 911 and cayenne.
>This includes popular models like the Cayenne, Macan, Panamera, Taycan, 911, and the 718 Cayman and Boxster.
Also methods of fixing it suggest that there's just something borked with servers or the modules themselves:
>Some drivers reported success after disconnecting their car batteries for up to 10 hours, while others managed to restore function by disabling or rebooting the VTS module entirely. Rolf dealerships have been instructing technicians to manua
Re: Noviye Russkiye jokes aside, (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: Noviye Russkiye jokes aside, (Score:5, Interesting)
"Okay, then what happens to customers living in a nation that stats a war and then cuts off domestic internet access and scrambles sat signals?"
"Hmm. F-ck 'em?"
"Fair enough."
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I don't think it's a matter for QA but rather a design flaw to not have a backup plan in case GPS is not available. Radio signals can be finicky sometimes.
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> Porches aren't really daily driver cars
> Cayenne, Macan, Panamera, Taycan, 911, and the 718 Cayman and Boxster.
Four of the seven models listed are literally marketed as "daily drivers" and/or family cars.
=Smidge=
Re: Noviye Russkiye jokes aside, (Score:2)
Still, you could be in an underground csr park. Sometimes for a few days.
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Definitely not. I'm seeing the same kidney-shaped CUVs that everyone else makes, but with a Porsche badge on it.
What is scary is... what happens if a satellite is knocked out or Internet connectivity destroyed? Especially in a disaster.
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What is scary is... what happens if a satellite is knocked out or Internet connectivity destroyed? Especially in a disaster.
Perhaps there is a personal physical override in those cases. It's certainly a good "remedy" for people who don't pay their subscriptions.
"The system takes between one and four hours to install, and Porsche says it’s about 1,000 euros ($1,140) to fit, with a monthly 20 euro ($23) service charge. "
Oh no! (Score:2, Funny)
Anyway...
Who thought this service was a good idea? (Score:5, Interesting)
I can see a service where you can send a satellite message to disable your car/brick it. But a system where if you lose satellite communication for enough time it bricks itself automatically?
I can see a hundred ways this can go bad - starting with what actually happened.
Horrible business plan.
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Well the company was founded by Nazis...
Re: Who thought this service was a good idea? (Score:3)
Erm no
Adolf Rosenberger[1]Â(8 April 1900 - 6 December 1967) was a successfulÂJewishÂbusinessmanÂand co-founder of theÂPorscheÂcar company.
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There were three total. Rosenberger wasn't allowed to stay long, and you know why.
Re: Who thought this service was a good idea? (Score:5, Informative)
You know Ferdinand Porsche did time in jail for war crimes right?
https://www.warhistoryonline.c... [warhistoryonline.com]
What's your next argument going to be? Hitler couldn't have been a Nazi because he was born before the party existed?
Also Messerschmitt was bought by DASA, which was then bought by Airbus. Willy Messerschmitt isn't the founder of Airbus. Get off the narccs.
Re:Who thought this service was a good idea? (Score:5, Informative)
Porsche was founded in 1931. The Nazi party was founded in 1920.
Two of the Porsche founders (one was Ferdinand himself and the other his son-in-law) joined the Nazi party after the company was founded. The third founder was a Jew who was later attested for "racial crimes" but saved by a colleague bribing the Gestapo and was able to flee Germany.
Does this mean the company was founded by Nazis? Probably not, because many prominent businessmen were basically given the choice of joining the party or having their business confiscated. Could Ferdinand have shown some backbone and not joined? For sure yes.
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Porsche was founded in 1931. The Nazi party was founded in 1920.
Two of the Porsche founders (one was Ferdinand himself and the other his son-in-law) joined the Nazi party after the company was founded. The third founder was a Jew who was later attested for "racial crimes" but saved by a colleague bribing the Gestapo and was able to flee Germany.
Does this mean the company was founded by Nazis? Probably not, because many prominent businessmen were basically given the choice of joining the party or having their business confiscated. Could Ferdinand have shown some backbone and not joined? For sure yes.
Porsche certainly made a lot of weapons and vehicles for the Nazis
Re:Who thought this service was a good idea? (Score:5, Interesting)
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And Boeing made the plane that dropped the atomic bomb and the firebombing of Tokyo. Both of which would have been war crimes if the US hadn't won the war. My point is that there are no clean hands in the ruling classes.
Wow
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And Boeing made the plane that dropped the atomic bomb and the firebombing of Tokyo. Both of which would have been war crimes if the US hadn't won the war. My point is that there are no clean hands in the ruling classes.
And Boeing made the plane that dropped the atomic bomb and the firebombing of Tokyo. Both of which would have been war crimes if the US hadn't won the war.
None of those were war crimes. If you believe otherwise, cite the specific conventions that were applicable at the time.
Besides, do you realize that you're complaining about Boeing making aircraft that were used to bomb not only nazi allies who fancied being honorary aryans, but also actual nazis themselves? And what's the point of this comment? Is this whataboutism, or do you believe Porsche holds a moral high ground for making use of slave labor provided by the third empire?
My point is that there are no clean hands in the ruling classes.
People who were following order
Re: Who thought this service was a good idea? (Score:2)
None of those were war crimes. If you believe otherwise, cite the specific conventions that were applicable at the time.
The fact that you had to add "that were applicable at the time" means that you know that these actions were morally wrong. And this is what GP is discussing: the morality of it. Not the technicality of what constituted a war crime back then. And that technicality would have been different if different people had won that war. See the argumentations at the trials about the holocaust: it's fascinating how many perpetrators acted as though they did nothing wrong, or not *that* bad in the context.
So this is the
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The fact that you had to add "that were applicable at the time" means that you know that these actions were morally wrong. ..
So this is the topic here: nuking and firebombing civilians is bad and should be considered a crime
Nope. Both actions were to diminish the enemy's capacity to fight. Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined were firecrackers compared to Tokyo. The main reason nuclear weapons are banned now is because of the after then known effects of nuclear fallout. Tokyo itself could only feasibly (but not necessarily) constitute a war crime now, simply because we have the capacity for guided munitions. Furthermore, napalm, like any incendiary weapon, is still legal to use. In those days, the only realistic way to bomb anythin
Re: Who thought this service was a good idea? (Score:2)
You are projecting a lot of things that nobody has expressed, I'm not certain how these thoughts made it to your mind but please don't pretend that I said things that I didn't, and don't try to guess what I think, you are failing at it. Let's take a step back. Here is a comma-separated list of things that are all true, all different, and do not contradict each other: killing civilians is bad, killing civilians is sometimes an inevitable side effect of achieving military-focused goals, bombing areas with the
Re: Who thought this service was a good idea? (Score:2)
You are projecting a lot of things that nobody has expressed,
It looked like you were having fun when you did it, so I thought I'd join in, didn't I?
Note how the moral judgement is only applied to the cases where civilians are the primary target.
Obviously I can't tell you what was in their heads with any certainty, but somehow you seem pretty certain that you can. You just did exactly that, after all. More than that, from the very first sentence in your very first post you seemed certain that I somehow "know it was morally wrong", despite the fact that I haven't even made any judgments about morality. Why? Because I wasn't the one out there getting shot, bombed,
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I'm surprised that the person who brought this up didn't focus a little
Re:Who thought this service was a good idea? (Score:5, Informative)
I suspect Porsche was trying to stop thieves who would disconnect the satellite link in order to keep the car from receiving a kill-switch signal.
Disable the car when it loses the satellite link, and that plan is foiled. That'll teach 'em! Oh wait...
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Yeah, the design makes sense, just like the way house alarm is wired, where a sensor opens the circuit in case of a problem, so that if you cut the wire it still triggers the alarm.
They probably thought that satellite outage is way less likely than someone jamming the signal to steal the car and they probably were right, just that when the satellite outage happened, it affected many people at the same time and made the news, while a few cars being stolen by jamming the signal would not have made the news.
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That doesn't sound like the Streisand Effect.
The Streisand Effect happens when someone objects to something that threatens their privacy, and that objection backfires and paradoxically causes more publicity.
It's not just a disclosure that someone doesn't want to occur.
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Re:Who thought this service was a good idea? (Score:5, Interesting)
the way house alarm is wired
"Value Priced" installed alarms do that. I installed and maintained alarms in the 70's. I used two types of systems, for low security, a resistor at the bitter end of the zone. That way a open or short would set off the zone. The other was a oscillating R/C or C/L circuit that was tuned to a unique frequency for that alarm on that zone. Lately, the zones (wired or wireless) use TLS.
As to reporting, most were metallic pair from TelCo (kinda expensive) with line security (variable oscillating), or used dial up every few minutes. A special "OverWatch" mode for dial up was available for an extra charge that stayed connected but that was designed by the company and not something off the shelf. These days, it's done with Internet via cable/phone or wireless. A drop in comms == "Trouble" which is treated as an alarm condition.
Another precaution was a code to repeat in case of alarm. Said code said one style, everything is OK. Said in another style it ment the subscriber was being held hostage. Much fun calling for a SWAT response and very, very expensive when the subscriber got it wrong.
Re:Who thought this service was a good idea? (Score:5, Insightful)
I suspect Porsche was trying to stop thieves who would disconnect the satellite link in order to keep the car from receiving a kill-switch signal.
Disable the car when it loses the satellite link, and that plan is foiled. That'll teach 'em! Oh wait...
If they wanted to stop thieves they wouldn't be doing business in Russia at all.
Re: Who thought this service was a good idea? (Score:2)
Well, they did stop all the thieves there.
Re: Who thought this service was a good idea? (Score:2)
With your solution, all a thief must do is unplug the receiver, or wrap it in tin foil, and theyâ(TM)re home free.
Re: Who thought this service was a good idea? (Score:3)
Actually that's the proper way to design these, of course with some kind of backup way in (usually via a PIN). Only emergency exits and similar should "fall open" in case of outages and even there of course great care should be taken so this can't be easily exploited.
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Horrible business plan.
Great business plan. The high end car industry is full of customer led requests to improve theft protection. Sending a disable command to a car after it has been cut off from communication is about as effective as using Find My Phone to detect a phone in a faraday cage, which is to say fuck-all. It was customers that were driving these kinds of feature requests.
And for all those hundreds of ways that it could go bad, it's been over a decade and this is the first such example. As a customer for me that would
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Put your car in a garage for a year because you will be traveling, and then having that brick the car really isn't good. But I don't feel bad when bad things happen in Russia these days, in the same way I wish that Trump and his administration would lose access to everything, along with ICE, then the government in Israel. This list goes on.
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It gets worse: "The Russian Porsche Macan Club said some drivers had restored function by disabling or rebooting the VTS, while others reported success after disconnecting their car batteries for up to 10 hours, according to the Telegram channel Mash." So it's a theft-deterrent, not theft-prevention.
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No one at Porsche thought to test this out in a mountain canyon? Or does no one take their Porsche into the mountains on a multiday camping trip?
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I can see a service where you can send a satellite message to disable your car/brick it. But a system where if you lose satellite communication for enough time it bricks itself automatically?
I can see a hundred ways this can go bad - starting with what actually happened.
Horrible business plan.
No, it's a great business plan. Add a feature that means the car is undrivable if the customer disables or blocks your location-tracking-for-sale device. Bonus! Make it an additional option they PAID for!
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Actually, I like it. There just needs to be a local override that only the owner would know... say, a passphrase or some other code along with a key. That way, external events can not disrupt the normal operation of the vehicle. Yes, there is now the risk of getting kidnapped or otherwise violated to get that information out of you, but, no anti-theft system can be perfectly reliable while allowing reliable operation of the vehicle.
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This is what I think all PATS systems should have. Some mechanism where the entire thing can be disabled completely, or reset.
It would be interesting to open source this, but having a balance of security and open source is difficult, but doable. The key (heh) is placing the PATS module somewhere on a vehicle that is a PITA to get to, like between the gas tank and the bed of a pickup truck, for example. From there, having a user selectable set of protectors. It could be something as simple as a switch, i
Couldn't happen to nicer people (Score:5, Insightful)
I wonder how many of those Porches (and Mercedes and others) were stolen from Ukrainian dealerships in the first place.
Personally knowing medics in Ukraine that have to use modified secondhand family vans because the Russians looted all the ambulances and cleaned out the car dealerships, I have to say "So what?"
Brick them all.
Re:Couldn't happen to nicer people (Score:5, Insightful)
Also busses, tractors and combines and all sorts of farm equipment, everything that could be looted from businesses and homes was looted. Hundreds of thousands of children were kidnapped.
ruzzia is a scourge, always was always will be, unfit to exist on this planet.
Every time I say it here, I am moded down as a troll, doesn't change the reality.
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IF this tech spreads? What makes you think it hasn't already?
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Precisely! While a lot of Russians may be opposed to this war themselves, they've got to wonder whether their property will be subject to seizure whenever Western entities - be it governments, companies, NGOs,... - have a beef w/ them. Right now, it's Ukraine, but what if the West doesn't like Russian policies against LGBTQ+ or any other pet cause of the West?
That's why, in the long term, once the war ends and everything dies down, chances are that Russia will be lost to Western business forever. They
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this can equally well be used in authoritarian countries (Russia, US, China, etc) to track or disable the vehicles of dissidents or keep protesters from following ICE vermin.
The OnStar system in my previous vehicle still reported to OnStar (or someone) even though it did not HAVE OnStar installed or activated. I was out west where the nearest cell tower was over 60 miles away and was using an SDR and traced it to the trunk on the drivers side. I was looking for some SCADA signals in the 800-950 Mhz range and said "What the actual hell is THAT!?" when I saw it was always near, and always fairly strong. I assume it was beaconing for a cell tower since it was a repeated signlal wi
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No. I got rid of the car about a year later. It didn't bother me because at the time, I thought it was just a snitch, like the any other cell phone. Didn't occur to me they could shut off my car but I feel stupid I didn't think of that. Too trusting.
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US auto companies use cell phone system for vehicle tracking and geo-fencing on high-risk loans
Since cell coverage is nearly universal in US, it works just fine
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While you're probably not wrong I also hold steadfastly to my conviction to never buy VW group. Or BMW. Or MErcedes for that matter.
I had a JAC drive in front of me two days ago. Didn't know the brand. Googled it. On the website, they reiterated three or four times that 75% were owned by VW... I found it cute how they think that's something they can brag with.
To be fair though... there aren't any good car brands coming to mind. When others notice the trend back to physical buttons, Mazda, the last holdout,
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Another issue is how components are expensive. For example, a co-worker had a relay replaced. A normal relay is about $10-$20. Because this was part of a SBC... it cost hundreds. Just getting something like the steering wheel position sensor on my vehicle ran a small fortune. If these are wear items, they should be treated as such and have the part that wears out easily accessible and replaceable.
Then there is the looming specter that cars can't be maintained. Once the car maker stops making boards fo
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I wonder how many of those Porches (and Mercedes and others) were stolen from Ukrainian dealerships in the first place.
Personally knowing medics in Ukraine that have to use modified secondhand family vans because the Russians looted all the ambulances and cleaned out the car dealerships, I have to say "So what?"
Brick them all.
Probably stolen from the UK or Western Europe. Maybe even as far away as the US.
A lot of the UK's stolen cars end up in Eastern Europe, some even keep the UK number plates for that authentic feel.
Re:Couldn't happen to nicer people (Score:5, Funny)
why is this retarded shit rated as insightful?
Start of first shift in St Petersburg I see
can it do stuff like cutting fuel delivery at spee (Score:2)
can it do stuff like cutting fuel delivery at speed while on the road?
Russian Porsches disabled (Score:5, Interesting)
Well....
shucky darn.
John Deere remotely disabled a bunch of tractors that Russians stole from Ukraine in 2022.
Now Porsche can do the same thing to all of their vehicles in Russia.
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Now, I agree that this is the sort of thing we need to restrict government access to, lest we fall to authoritarianism. But, if you're saying that the US already has, in the context of a story related to Russia no less, then you really don't know what you're talking about. That you specifically called out interfering with key law enforcement activities, for which I voted and actively support, makes me suspect the latter.
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Well, if you support "lawn forcement" checking stopping people and checking their papers on the street at random, then you have no respect for the Bill of Rights, and are generally an un-American piece of shit. Shame on you. Nothing worse than a bootlicking cuck.
Yeah, interfering with Fascist "lawn forcement" is sometimes a good thing. Remember, catching fugitive slaves, enforcing segregation laws, and internment of Japanese people were all once legal. Laws written by a bunch of old impotent men, enforc
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I don't care how much you want cheap labor that you can exploit and crush, but I think that's a bad thing that hurts American workers and the migrants. I don't care how much you want to inflate the representation and electoral power of blue States with people who can't vote, it's still wrong. I don't care how much your heart bleeds for people who spat in our collective faces and wiped their asses on our laws, but
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Fuck the majority and fuck you. If this were the old Slashdot, most people here would have been LIVID at the thought of ICE pigs stopping people on the streets at random, asking for their "papers please", and often arresting them or being violent EVEN IF THEY SHOWED PROOF OF US CITIZENSHIP. When did Slashdot become the home of bootlicking bitter old codgers instead of libertarian in bent?
As far as "dumbocrapsee", the rule of the voting rabble (deplorable trash) shouldn't be paramount or unlimited. That's
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I agree that Rockefeller should fry in Hades and that his name should be erased.
This being said:
(1) The penalty for possession of small amounts of weed was liberalized to a $100 fine in the late 1970s, likely when you were a toddler.
(2) Under Bloomberg, the NYPD was in the habit of arresting people for possession of small amounts citing "public display", which was a misdemeanor, so didn't affect voting rights.
Pig: turn out your pockets
Joint falls on ground.
Pig: Oink! Oink! It's on public display now.
Most
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I'm also okay with our immigration laws and the enforcement thereof. I don't see any sincere justification for the current resistance. I do see plenty of lies being thrown around, and very disingenuous arguments against.
Basically, someone got you all whipped up into a frenzy so you w
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I'm fine with less assimilation ... hearing different languages, seeing different cultures makes my city (NYC) worth living in. You mean the WHINING of everyday citizens, right? Oh, ohhhhhh, there's food other than meat, potatoes, and burgers. Boooohoooboooohoooboooohoooo!
I'm OK with reasonable enforcement of immigration laws, not with stopping people not engaging in overt criminal conduct on the street and asking for papers like it was the USSR in 1985. (And sometimes, still harassing them AFTER they'v
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You sound like you're really stressed out. Cities are bad for mental health. The pollution, noise, and the perverse estrangement of crowds isn't good for you. NYC is not worth living in. It's worth visiting on occasion, but it is not worth the cost or stress of being
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No technology, no problem. (Score:3)
I'll keep driving my car that A. doesn't have any of that stuff and B. is to old for anyone to want to steal /25 year old truck with a bulletproof engine /10 year old car with same
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Point being, don't assume that being 10-25 years old means nobody wants to steal it. If anything, it looks like, "doesn't have any of that stuff", does make it far more likely your car will be stolen.
Wrong headline (Score:2)
I wonder if the development and service costs for this feature are included in the price? -Just another reason not to buy a Porsche.
Come to think about it, how many honest hard working people in Russia can actually afford a Porsche? -That one guy is who I feel sorry for.
All in all itâ(TM)s just (Score:2)
Another brick in the wall.
Go Ukraine..... (Score:2)
Sounds like there is more to this... (Score:3)
It sounds like there is more to this. Satellites don't respect political boundaries. Also, a simple "loss of signal" happens when you park your Porche in a garage - it doesn't even have to be a multi-storey underground one, I bet the satellite signal is blocked easier than that. And yet we've never heard of any issue with this outside Russia, so there's more to the story than Porche being stupid thinking that they should disable cars who lose satellite connection.
What could it be? (Score:3)
Russia scrambling satellites to avoid getting hit by Ukrainian drones and missiles?
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Yeah, famous German carmakers have turned ... (Score:2)
... complete retard in that way.
Disclaimer: German here.
German carmakers today are precisely at where US car-makers where in the mid to late 60ies: aloof, disconnected and arrogant, relying to much on brand-recognition to pull off non-sense like planned obsolescence or subscriptions for your heated seats.
Something doesn't add up (Score:3)
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Yay, more enshittification (Score:2)
Another thing that doesn't work unless it gets a periodic OK from the cloud overlords.
If I've got the key/fob in my hand and can manipulate that and controls on/in the car at the same time, I ought to be able to drive it. What if I need to get help in an emergency, or flee some disaster, and this piece of shit is the only thing in my garage? If I survive, can I sue?
Imagine the hilarity... (Score:2)
Imagine the hilarity when tow trucks incorporate similar anti-theft systems...
They can ask their own government to help (Score:2)
In Soviet DDR... (Score:2)
Explanation Doesn't Make Sense (Score:2)
When the VTS connection drops, the anti-theft protocol kicks in, cutting fuel delivery and locking down the engine completely.
So Porsches can't drive through tunnels, into underground garages, deep valleys, or through sky scraper canyons?
This explanation doesn't make sense.
Ha! This is why... (Score:2)
Unless (Score:2)
Someone found the OEM "secret code" to brick them. You know, like the ones John Deere used to brick the Ukrainian tractors that were pillaged by the Russians?
Porsche? (Score:2)
Owning or using Western cars discredits the Russian industry, therefore the Kremlin, so it should be illegal. They just need to hop into their Ladas even if the original ones were Italian Fiat models licensed to the USSR. It's a three-day special industrial operation.
Self inflicted (Score:2)
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The anti-theft system in For Your Eyes Only was also very effective. I'm sure Q had the parts numbered for just such emergencies.