DHS Says REAL ID, Which DHS Certifies, Is Too Unreliable To Confirm US Citizenship (reason.com) 275
An anonymous reader shares a report: Only the government could spend 20 years creating a national ID that no one wanted and that apparently doesn't even work as a national ID. But that's what the federal government has accomplished with the REAL ID, which the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) now considers unreliable, even though getting one requires providing proof of citizenship or lawful status in the country.
In a December 11 court filing [PDF], Philip Lavoie, the acting assistant special agent in charge of DHS' Mobile, Alabama, office, stated that, "REAL ID can be unreliable to confirm U.S. citizenship." Lavoie's declaration was in response to a federal civil rights lawsuit filed in October by the Institute for Justice, a public-interest law firm, on behalf of Leo Garcia Venegas, an Alabama construction worker. Venegas was detained twice in May and June during immigration raids on private construction sites, despite being a U.S. citizen. In both instances, Venegas' lawsuit says, masked federal immigration officers entered the private sites without a warrant and began detaining workers based solely on their apparent ethnicity.
And in both instances officers allegedly retrieved Venegas' Alabama-issued REAL ID from his pocket but claimed it could be fake. Venegas was kept handcuffed and detained for an hour the first time and "between 20 and 30 minutes" the second time before officers ran his information and released him.
In a December 11 court filing [PDF], Philip Lavoie, the acting assistant special agent in charge of DHS' Mobile, Alabama, office, stated that, "REAL ID can be unreliable to confirm U.S. citizenship." Lavoie's declaration was in response to a federal civil rights lawsuit filed in October by the Institute for Justice, a public-interest law firm, on behalf of Leo Garcia Venegas, an Alabama construction worker. Venegas was detained twice in May and June during immigration raids on private construction sites, despite being a U.S. citizen. In both instances, Venegas' lawsuit says, masked federal immigration officers entered the private sites without a warrant and began detaining workers based solely on their apparent ethnicity.
And in both instances officers allegedly retrieved Venegas' Alabama-issued REAL ID from his pocket but claimed it could be fake. Venegas was kept handcuffed and detained for an hour the first time and "between 20 and 30 minutes" the second time before officers ran his information and released him.
They'll need a second form of ID (Score:5, Insightful)
like being white for example.
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Re:They'll need a second form of ID (Score:5, Informative)
Family Guy called it years ago. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DL... [twimg.com]
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I doubt that will be something that will convince them, but if they're going to play these kinds of games that's fine. With this in mind if ICE tries to stop me, I'm going to treat it like the deadly threat to my safety and liberty that it clearly is. I suggest everyone else do the same.
Only the goverment (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: Only the goverment (Score:3)
When one party actively sabotages the government, you can't exactly expect it to work.
It's not even that. Under this administration, the government is (re)arresting US citizens and using REAL ID, the thoroughly Republican legislative effort, as an excuse for fucking up. There's likely nothing wrong with REAL ID itself, just with the government arresting brown people and making excuses about authenticity of their papers afterwards. Par for the course for Trump, fuck up and blame the government he's responsible for.
Re:Only the goverment (Score:5, Insightful)
Ah yes the "both sides" argument. So I'm going to need some citations here.
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It all depends on your viewpoint. Republicans think Democrats screw up government for their world view, Democrats think the same of Republicans. That is how we have gotten to the mess we are in now. The reality is that neither party is "small government," and both parties support their pet spending. While I don't condone much that this administration is doing (really can only think of one thing), it is exactly what their party faithful have asked for.
Looking at the world in black and white terms will always
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Soooo, both sides,
Whatever. That's just lame and lazy, no one lies like the trumpers. They're in their own league of bullshit. if you can't see that, pull your head out of it.
Re:Only the goverment (Score:4, Insightful)
Remind me again which side is cheering for masked secret police to abduct people into rental vans?
Re: Only the goverment (Score:5, Insightful)
The Biden administration increased ICE funding and promoted its expansion
And were ICE agents masked? Were they taking in American citizens and ignoring their documentation when provided? Were they arresting people when they showed up for their court-ordered date as part of their process to regularize their immigration status? Was the US shipping people without due process to prisons in El-Salvador?
The problem isn't that ICE exists, or that enforcement against undocument immigrants is a thing. the problem is what they have been allowed to become. And don't get me wrong, ICE wasn't without its problems back then, and shipping some people out of the country without due process *was* happening under Biden's administration, and even under Obama's administration. It should not have been allowed. They weren't being sent to prisons, though.
The democrats don't have to be perfect. In order to avoid the "both sides" argument, it's enough to show the MAGA republicans are fascists and therefore significantly worse. There's no denying this.
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"I don't need citations, it's obvious" = "I need to hide the fact that I have no evidence."
Re: Only the goverment (Score:3)
Nobody can change immigration laws because... *points to MAGA voters*
Even without MAGA, they were there. It's all about following the law until either side tries to make the laws better, then out from the woodwork pops these... it's not about the law it's about keeping people out of the country. MAGA at least pulled the mask off. But don't pretend both sides were not trying to fix immigration laws, they were.
Re: Only the goverment (Score:5, Insightful)
Right now, the leader of the Republican party is working for Putin, Netanyahu, and the Saudis, to the detriment of the American public...
This is nothing new, since they have rallied around Starve The Beast [wikipedia.org] for over 30 years and claim that government doesn't work, then actively dismantle it when they are elected to prove themselves right
Which party are _you referring to?
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False!. He's also working for Argentina.
Re: Only the goverment (Score:5, Informative)
You need to stop watching right wing news and repeating it until you believe it
I'll let AI answer your attempts to confuse, please take the time to consider that you may be a dupe
>>And, how is the Republican leader working for Putin, Netanyahu, and the Saudis. How is that any different than Biden or anyone?
Republican Leader (Donald Trump)
The current or presumptive Republican leader, Donald Trump, has faced specific criticisms regarding his interactions with Vladimir Putin, Benjamin Netanyahu, and the Saudis:
Russia (Putin): Critics have described a "pro-Putin shift" among some Republicans and pointed to Trump's past actions, such as reportedly having several phone calls with Putin since leaving office and considering a peace plan for Ukraine that involved territorial concessions, as evidence of a stance beneficial to Moscow. Business ties and past political relationships between Republican figures and Russian interests have also been highlighted as a concern by critics.
Israel (Netanyahu): Trump and congressional Republicans have consistently offered strong support for Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Israel, with some advisors having close personal or business ties to the Netanyahu government. This support has led to accusations from some progressives that the U.S. has not adequately held Israel accountable for its actions in conflicts, such as in Gaza.
Saudi Arabia (Saudis): Concerns have been raised over the close personal and business ties between the Trump family/administration officials (like Jared Kushner) and the Saudi royal family and sovereign wealth fund. Critics point to large business deals, the rehabilitation of the Crown Prince's global image, and a transactional approach to the relationship as potentially compromising U.S. national interests.
>>And, the Democrats wanted to open the borders and let all the 'illegals' in.
No, the official Democratic Party platform does not advocate for "open borders" or for letting all undocumented immigrants into the country without a legal process. The claim that Democrats want open borders is widely considered a political talking point used by opponents.
Instead, the Democratic Party platform generally supports:
Securing the border using a mix of technology (such as scanning technology at ports of entry, aerial systems, and drones) and, in some strategic locations, physical barriers, while also calling for sufficient funding and staffing for the Department of Homeland Security (DHS).
Comprehensive immigration reform for the existing immigration system, which is widely considered to be broken and backlogged.
Expanding legal pathways for immigration, including for high-skilled workers, students, farmworkers, and those with U.S. citizen family ties.
Providing a path to earned citizenship for undocumented immigrants who have lived in the U.S. for a significant time, pay taxes, pass a criminal background check, and meet other strict criteria.
Prioritizing the deportation of individuals who have committed violent crimes or pose a threat to public safety, rather than broad, indiscriminate mass deportations.
Addressing the root causes of migration by working with international partners and improving economic conditions in other countries.
Ensuring humane treatment and due process for migrants in U.S. custody and improving the asylum processing system to be faster and fairer.
While there are internal debates within the party, particularly between moderate and liberal Democrats on specific enforcement policies, the consensus is on a system that is both secure and humane, not an elimination of borders or enforcement. Party leaders have actively engaged in bipartisan negotiations on border security legislation and criticized political obstruction of such efforts
Mod parent comment UP. (Score:2)
Re: Only the goverment (Score:5, Insightful)
defining the "bad" based on skin color isn't a good gauge to use.
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"It will take time, though"
Funny, I seem to recall Orange Jesus telling us the exact opposite before the election.
Papers please! (Score:5, Insightful)
So we're at the Papers please! stage of fascism now. Cool. Next up loyalty oaths.
Re:Papers please! (Score:5, Insightful)
We're now beyond that stage, because you can have the federal government approved ID and have them not accept it.
I am a big white guy, but I have an aggressively Hispanic name. The whole thing (all three parts) is extremely common in Mexico. While both of my parents were born here, none of their parents were. Most of them came from Europe, but one was a Mexican citizen. I have an allegedly real ID. When all this bullshit kicked off, I refreshed my passport, and I carry the passport card.
The question is, if it ever comes down to it, will they even accept my passport card as proof of citizenship?
P.S. I've sworn two formal oaths to uphold the constitutions of the USA and California.
Re:Papers please! (Score:5, Insightful)
They do not care about ID. They care about terrorizing you and acting all powerful.
Re:Papers please! (Score:5, Informative)
In the Mexican Repatriation [wikipedia.org] during the early part of the Great Depression, between 300,000 and 2 million people of Mexican heritage were forcibly removed from America, even though a large percentage of them were born here.
There were no records kept, just a brutal attack on fellow Americans to distract the rest from the poor management of the government and inevitable steps to the Great Depression
Sometimes History is not content to simply rhyme, it clearly repeats itself.
One of the factors leading towards this was the absolute control of the media by Randolph Hearst, and his consistent propagandistic support for policies that set Americans against each other
It should be obvious the Fox News plays a similar role now, and all the Americans born since Hearst's form of Yellow Journalism was flushed down the toilet need to learn why it must be done again
Re:Papers please! (Score:4, Insightful)
P.S. I've sworn two formal oaths to uphold the constitutions of the USA and California.
Sorry, but that's not enough. If you want to be sure the current federal government will protect your rights and/or liberty, you also need to formally swear fealty to Donald Trump.
Re:Papers please! (Score:4, Funny)
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So in this world you are advocating here all of us are going to have a passport card on us at all times?
Re:Papers please! (Score:5, Informative)
Loyalty oaths? You mean like the one you force school children to recite every single day?
Re:Papers please! (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm actually not a fan of that either. Especially the "under god" line they tacked on in the 1950s.
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"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.". And yes, that was entirely from memory.
Re:Papers please! (Score:5, Informative)
And yes, they still recite it. There is a Supreme Court ruling that any school child has a Constitutional right to refuse to recite the Pledge, but not many kids are going to have the guts to invoke that right when the teacher is leading the whole class in reciting it.
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That's already happening - new federal employees must swear an oath of allegiance to Trump to follow his policies and such.
Though I think Project 2026 has something to say about that as well. Yes, there is a new Project 2026 document which contains some of the stuff in Project 2025 that hasn't been done yet (e.g., banning pornography) but adds more stuff that they would like done as well
Re:Papers please! (Score:5, Insightful)
I was going to challenge you on that, since the only oath a federal employee has to swear is to honor the constitution. But to even get past the interview stage now you have to declare your loyalty to trump so really that amounts to the same thing in the end. And if a democrat does win the next presidency (which i feel is unlikely), he or she will have to completely clean out the bureaucracy and start over, probably doing their own form of loyalty oaths, which is a very bad thing.
Administrations have often done things that run afoul of the constitution (and congress too) but in the past when such things were challenged and ruled against by the courts, the president and the administration backed down and honored the constitutional decision. This administration ignores the courts and actively fights the constitution when challenged. It really is a stark turn for the United States.
Re:Papers please! (Score:5, Interesting)
Here is the essay Federal applicant's have to make now:
How would you help advance the President’s Executive Orders and policy priorities in this role? Identify one or two relevant Executive Orders or policy initiatives that are significant to you, and explain how you would help implement them if hired.
So the easy way to answer your question is did Biden, Obama, Bush, Clinton or even Trump1 have anything similar?
Re:Papers please! (Score:4, Insightful)
Um, the guy at the top was using loyalty oaths 6 years ago. We're already into the Concentration Camp stage of fascism, with warrantless & process-free seizure adding a little drama to being off-white: they're taking you just because, not telling anyone where or why, that birth certificate or passport could be fake - bye.
Next is shooting people who disagree, on a whim and in the street.
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"God gave me freedom to spew killer germs everywhere!"
MAGAT!
Re: Papers please! (Score:5, Insightful)
Do you mean when employers in "at will" employment states asked for proof of vaccination? Just like the way doctors offices and hospitals require everyone receive certain vaccines in order to be hired? I recall a lot of that happening under Trump actually.
Re: Papers please! (Score:4, Interesting)
I’m guessing immigration is a Fox talking point today.
Re: Papers please! (Score:5, Informative)
Q: And, where did all the things that require vaccination come from?
"The United States has a long history of school vaccination requirements. The first school vaccination requirement was enacted in the 1850s in Massachusetts to prevent the spread of smallpox.[21] The school vaccination requirement was put in place after the compulsory school attendance law caused a rapid increase in the number of children in public schools, increasing the risk of smallpox outbreaks. The early movement towards school vaccination laws began at the local level including counties, cities, and boards of education. By 1827, Boston had become the first city to mandate that all children entering public schools show proof of vaccination.[22] In addition, in 1855 the Commonwealth of Massachusetts had established its own statewide vaccination requirements for all students entering school, this influenced other states to implement similar statewide vaccination laws in schools as seen in New York in 1862, Connecticut in 1872, Pennsylvania in 1895, and later the Midwest, South, and Western US. By 1963, 20 states had school vaccination laws.[22]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
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No you didn't. It's not the fact that it was compulsory that created a problem, it's the fact that attendance increased. The vaccinations would have been necessary even if the increased attendance would result from other forces than the law.
Re: Papers please! (Score:5, Insightful)
No, it should be considered child abuse to deny a child an education.
Re: Papers please! (Score:5, Informative)
Public health mandates save tens of thousands of lives, many many more hospitalizations. Get over yourself.
Re: Papers please! (Score:4, Insightful)
What if I don't want to live in a world where I'm not free?
You have options. Someone should probably let you know though that no one has ever been free to do whatever they want in any developed society. Even when all you have is a village, if you fuck up too much you're getting voted off the island. If you want to become a hermit, that's possible now. It's not really legal, but if you're good at it, no one will be able to stop you.
Why can't you legalize suicide so I can legally buy an exit pill
Are you worried about posthumous conviction?
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Are you at least getting paid to lick boots or does it turn you on?
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Ohhh, Auchey!
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Re:Papers please! (Score:4, Insightful)
That's what the people who want to do it have to figure out, they just can't say "everyone has to carry papers now and have to prove citizenship to authorities" unless it is the law that you are compelled to show ID when requested?
This is just a way of saying "But it's hard work! Can't we just break the law a little to make it easier?"
Re:Papers please! (Score:4, Insightful)
Depends on the circumstances. Now is it the practical move for most to show their ID? Yeah, sure. But If you're just on public streets, not driving and a cop asks you to ID yourself you are under no condition to do so unless the officer has reasonable suspicion. Could they make that up? Sure but also if you don't have it what are they gonna do? They either arrest you or let you go and in just about every state that's unlawful detention. But that's for local and state cops, who have to responsible for their actions (usually)
Also I'd have to ask if you are conservative or not because it's no longer surprising but getting pretty alarming that the conservatives who were so apoplectic for the past 10 years about the idea of "if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to worry about" justification for government overreach are so very quick to justify it now.
That shouldn't be principle you just let go of, so now me, the soyboy liberal is fighting for the idea that yes, this is America, you can walk around without ID and if you aren't doing crime then fuck off, you don't get to hassle me.
and both parties gleefully joined hands to pass shit like the Patriot Act.
Sure, this can be true but it is also true only one party is pushing it as far as we are here today. Even after the Patriot Act there was pretty strong bipartisan push back on the idea of a Federal ID system for those very reasons and now it's being made real in only the worst ways. We don't even get the convenience of a real ID system, we just have to ad-hoc it lest the secret police decide to not believe you or are in a bad mood. Only one party supports this state of affairs.
Turns out, the presidency just naturally lends itself to more authoritarianism then a Senator or House of Reps. does.
Not really, you see we have a choice in the matter and we chose the more authoritarian one. The man said he was gonna do a bunch of authoritarian shit and we said yes, please sir. You don't get to play the "Oh just how it is" card, there is culpability.
It requires FIVE types of ID... (Score:5, Informative)
I got my RealID some years ago. It required 5 types of ID. I used my passport, social security card, voter ID paper, phone bill and electric bill. All that satisfied the RealID requirements
What else do they need? /p?
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Re:It requires FIVE types of ID... (Score:5, Informative)
Read the click-bait article carefully. They are not saying real ID is unreliable, they are saying a real ID card can be forged. When there is suspicion of a forged document it can take longer to verify its authenticity.
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In that case, they should make it electronic,
They absolutely should not. Digital ID is all kinds of a bad idea for all kinds of reasons.
Re: It requires FIVE types of ID... (Score:2)
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If the goal is to make sure that the ID card they check matches you... if my pic was taken when I was 150lbs., it's gonna look different after I gain 80lbs. and start boxing (getting pounded to hamburger changes the shape of your face... look at Stallone).
The only way to do it right would be: the usual pic and address stuff, also do fingerprint and a pin-prick blood sample... think Gattaca. My face could be damaged boxing or in an accident, my fingerprint could be unreadable (some finger-losing or scarring
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I'm in my mid 70s now, and my fingerprints are so worn down that when I turn pages in a book, I have to watch the page numbers to make sure I'm not turning more than one page. A few years ago, I found it impossible to set up the fingerprint reader on a new laptop because of that. I have no idea how that happened, because you'd think that as they get worn down they'd also grow back, but not this time. Are they so badly w
Re:It requires FIVE types of ID... (Score:4, Insightful)
(getting pounded to hamburger changes the shape of your face... look at Stallone).
Stallone is an actor, not a boxer. He played a boxer in a movie series about one. Ever heard of make-up?
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Re: It requires FIVE types of ID... (Score:5, Insightful)
"Yes, we detained this person without anything even approaching probable cause. But in our defense, we were trying to detain a WHOLE BUNCH of people without probable cause."
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In that case, they should make it electronic, so that cryptographic solutions, such as hashing, can be applied to them. In fact, once they do that, they can capture everything about the person. So when that person has to show an ID, the reader of the entity doing the asking will only be able to read what it has access to. Like Law enforcement can access driver's license and insurance, but not immigration status. ICE can access passport, but nothing else. TSA can access passport, but nothing else. IRS can access social security number, but nothing else. The readers would all be exclusively electronic, so that no person can read all the details of the ID holder and gain more than s/he needs to do the job
Not everyone carries an electronic device with them at all times. So what then? The device addicted among us always seem to forget that not everyone is so afflicted.
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I’m surprised it isn’t already. In the EU all ID cards must have a ICAO 9303 compliant chip. The US passport already does, so I would have expected the ID card to implement it as well.
It’s strange that the US is at the cutting-edge for some technology and decades behind in others (banking, basic government administration).
Per https://www.dhs.gov/enhanced-d... [dhs.gov]
EDLs make it easier for U.S. citizens to cross the border into the United States because they include:
A Radio Frequency Identification (RFID) chip that will signal a secure system to pull up your biographic and biometric data for the CBP officer as you approach the border inspection booth.
A Machine Readable Zone (MRZ) or barcode that the CBP officer can read electronically if RFID isn't available.
And:
No personally identifiable information (PII) is stored on the card's RFID chip or can be transmitted electronically by the card. The card uses a unique identification number that links to information contained in a secure DHS database. This number does not contain PII.
When you get an EDL, you will also receive:
Information on how to use, carry, and protect your license.
A shielded sleeve that prevents anyone from reading your license.
So, it should have a way to electronically verify that the license/ID card is real (and what name should be on it)
Back to the filing in question, from the submitted affidavit: https://storage.courtlistener.... [courtlistener.com]
11. One individual remained at the worksite. One HSI Special Agent approached the individual, later identified as Plaintiff’s brother, Carlos Garcia-Venegas, who did not understand questions posed to him in English. ERO Deportation Officer came to assist through asking questions in the Spanish language however, the individual exhibited body language indicating an intention to flee. Once the ERO Deportation Officer found that Plaintiff’s brother posed a flight risk, the ERO Deportation Officer began to apprehend Plaintiff’s brother. Plaintiff then began to move quickly toward the arresting ERO Deportation Officer, posing a possible safety threat and potentially attempting to intervene in an ongoing apprehension.
12. An HSI Special Agent moved in between Plaintiff and the arresting ERO Deportation Officer and asked for Plaintiff’s identification, which Plaintiff vehemently refused to provide, insisting that he was not required to produce any documents and became confrontational.
13. Plaintiff began moving away from the HSI Special Agent in an effort to go around him. The HSI Special Agent instructed Plaintiff to stop, but the Plaintiff quickened his pace until he was circling around the arresting ERO Deportation Officer and his brother. The HSI Special Agent stopped Plaintiff by grabbing his wrist, as the HSI Special Agent was concerned for everyone's safety due to the presence of a concrete pad with exposed rebar and other sharp objects in the area, and due to Plaintiff’s refusal to comply with any commands given.
14. Plaintiff, continued to refuse to comply with commands and stated for the first time in the encounter that he was a U.S. citizen. The HSI Special Agent stated that if Plaintiff could provide identification demonstrating his citizenship, he would be released.
15. Plaintiff continued to use physical force against the HSI Special Agent by wrenching his arms and body, in an effort to resist law enforcement actions and create a risk of bodily injury to the officers. The HSI Special Agent employed multiple deescalating control techniques to secure Plaintiff for both the safety of officers on scene and Plaintiff until another HSI Special Agent was able to assist. Plaintiff continued to resist and was directed to the ground by two HSI Special Agents. Plaintiff was then handcuffed, with his hands restrained behind his back.
16. Only after being cuffed, Plaintiff stated that he had identification in his pocket. He was then brought to stand by the government vehicles. A subsequent search of his pocket by the HSI Special Agent located Plaintiff’s wallet, containing Plaintiff’s REAL ID-compliant Alabama driver’s license, as well as a second driver’s license. The HSI Special Agent needed to further verify his U.S. citizenship because each state has its own REAL ID compliance laws, which may provide for the issuance of a REAL ID to an alien and therefore based on HSI Special Agent training and experience, REAL ID can be unreliable to confirm U.S. citizenship.
17. Plaintiff agreed to communicate with law enforcement while the officers verified his U.S. citizenship. Plaintiff informed the HSI Special Agents that he knowingly transports illegal aliens for Southern Home Crafters following his employers’ direction and with the owner’s knowledge.
18. I was advised by HSI Special Agents that Plaintiff was referred to the U.S. Marshals Service for further investigation under Title 18 in reference to resisting federal officers and interfering with a federal investigation. I am unaware of any resulting criminal charges or the outcome of any investigation. 19. After U.S. citizenship was verified, the handcuffs were taken off and Plaintiff was released. Plaintiff was handcuffed for approximately 18 minutes.
So, REAL ID CAN be unreliable to confirm U.S. citizenship BECAUSE each state has its own REAL ID compliance laws, which may provide for the issuance of a REAL ID to an alien (in addition to the usual issues of it being lost and/or stolen).
I am curious what the
Re:It requires FIVE types of ID... (Score:5, Insightful)
They are not saying real ID is unreliable, they are saying a real ID card can be forged.
The pretense is now set for your legit ID being fake. If the government doesn't like you they can just declare your ID is forged and ICE can snatch you up.
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and ICE can snatch you up.
Those uniforms don't look authentic to me.
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The pretense is now set for your legit ID being fake.
Your ID is a piece of plastic until it is authenticated. Just like your badge or your access key.
Re:It requires FIVE types of ID... (Score:5, Informative)
Indigenous ID's have been claimed as fake by ICE too.
Elaine Miles
Elaine Miles, an Indigenous actress, faced a situation where she was detained by ICE agents who deemed her tribal ID "fake." This incident occurred while she was walking to a bus stop in Redmond, Washington, and was reported by multiple sources. Miles, who holds a federally recognized tribal enrollment card from the Confederated Tribes of the Umatilla Indian Reservation, has faced similar experiences in the past, with her son and uncle being detained by ICE agents who initially refused to accept their tribal IDs. This situation has raised concerns about racial profiling and the treatment of Indigenous people by immigration enforcement agencies.
Salon.com
Re:It requires FIVE types of ID... (Score:5, Insightful)
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Like that'll stop the criminals. Doesn't stop the ones already playing policeman and wearing masks.
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+100
Don't worry... it'll descend into an "It's all Trump's fault" argument
*hands jonsmirl a big bucket of popcorn and opens the beer cooler*
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And reading between the lines, they just want to claim any documents that is inconvenient to their objectives may be fake. Modern licenses that do real id are the most counterfeit resistant physical ids ever, including generally the ability to quickly scan and be corroborated instantly by smartphones in the field.
It's a BS excuse to ignore fourth amendment rights even when a citizen does everything exactly 'right' above and beyond what they should have to do.
Re: It requires FIVE types of ID... (Score:2)
Re:It requires FIVE types of ID... (Score:5, Insightful)
That's accepting the claim at face value. In practice, modern licenses are the most forgery resistant id cards ever. There's zero excuse for ICE to declare a counterfeit when they can just scan the back and instantly get online corroboration for the id card.
This is just an attempt at an excuse, because they have a mandate to round up select ethnicities and some of them actually having valid ID is an inconvenience they want to ignore.
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I got mine with just the passport and a bill showing my address. What state were you in?
Easy (Score:3)
Tattoo babies born in the USA to US citizens with "Made in USA" on their bottoms. /s
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"What happens when they molt?!?"
Excuse to issue the (Score:2)
"Trump ID Card"
"Could be fake"? (Score:2)
"Could be fake?" Anything could be fake. Even a passport. That's a really stupid thing to claim.
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No. That is a statement of "You have no rights and we decide what happens here!".
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The masked guy's claim to be an ICE agent could also be fake. Now what?
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Local police arrest them and charge them with the catch all disorderly conduct charge. It probably won't stick but it would gum things up.
Not sure why this is suddenly popping up (Score:5, Informative)
Real ID was never about validating citizenship, which is something that I argued time and time and time again when people argued for shit like Voter ID laws. You can be a non-citizen and totally get a validated Real ID.
I'm curious as to why this is suddenly coming up. Is it because some entity is trying to head off Real ID voter ID requirements for 2026? To be fair, that person would be correct, since Voter ID is a poll tax *and* Real ID doesn't provide any guarantee you're legally allowed to vote. So this is the correct approach. But it's curious watching this blow up all over the internet suddenly. I thought this was widely known.
The ONLY documents that provide proof of citizenship are: A Passport, a Passport Card, and maybe an Enhanced Driver's License in a northern border state.
Re:Not sure why this is suddenly popping up (Score:5, Informative)
It's suddenly popping up because Trump wants to deport everyone they can get their hands on, lawful status or not. And they're picking up citizens along the way.
Re: Not sure why this is suddenly popping up (Score:3)
Valid U.S. passport or passport card (Preferred)
Original or Certified copy of U.S birth certificate (issued by a city, county, or state vital statistics office). â€oeAbbreviated†or â€oeAbstract†certificates are NOT accepted.
Valid Permanent Resident Card
Foreign passport with valid U.S. Visa and approved I-94
They're already going after citizens (Score:4, Interesting)
They're also trying to make Trump derangement syndrome in illness which is the same thing Joseph Stalin did where he declared his enemies mentally ill and have them locked up.
These aren't clever men they're just using existing tactics to institute a fascist authoritarian state. But the tactics work.
And there is a bunch of people reading slashdot right now that are looking forward to it. The Fox News Grandpa's that get off on seeing ice goons crack heads.
A lot of them will be dead before the worst of the shit happens and before it happens to them. But if you're under 60 this shit's going to fuck you up.
Re:They're already going after citizens (Score:5, Informative)
ICE didn't exist until George W Bush (Homeland Security Act of 2002), and much of its powers stem from this act.
In short, much of the power that Donald Trump derives today was directly adopted by the Republican Party after 9/11. This is why it's critical to follow these laws.
With the talk of denaturalization, and potentially modifications/reinterpretation of the 14th Amendment, this only furthers these aims that were started over 2 decades ago under the guise of Republican leadership. In fact, the Republican Party has basically only accomplished two things in the last 25 years: A significant restriction of rights for everyday Americans, and massive fucking tax cuts for the wealthy.
If the 14th Amendment goes, and it looks like it's in the crosshairs, that is a significant step up that will inevitably allow Republican leadership to define citizenship however they wish to do so. And that should be scary as fuck.
In short, stop voting Republicans for any office, at any level of government.
Re: (Score:3)
While it’s true that much of the power that Trump exercises today nominally derives from GOP post-9/11 legislation and policies, that misses the point of Trump’s admin’s behaviour, because it makes it sound as though they are somehow constrained by legality. They have repeatedly demonstrated that they do not feel in the slightest constrained by legality, only by pushback. They’ve ignored Congress and the Supreme Court as well as lower courts whenever it suits them, and just done what
Trump lost 94% of his cases in lower Court (Score:3)
Trump is sold something like 2 to 4 billion dollars worth of pardons. It's a little hard to get an exact number but it's definitely not less than 2 billion and it could be as high as $6 billion.
Funny (Score:2)
Because I remember having to bring a birth certificate to get my current state driver's license.
But then, this regime has never heard the word "perjury".
They're not wrong... (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
The ID proves who the holder of the ID is, and then they look him up in their database of who is a citizen.
This "Real ID does not mean citizenship" idea is being repeated over and over again here, seems to be a concerted effort to try to discredit this story.
RealID not intended prove citizenship (Score:5, Insightful)
RealID isn't intended to prove citizenship. Citizens can get them, as can immigrants with lawful status in the country. That was on purpose, because people with lawful status also travel, enter federal buildings, and do lots of perfectly legal stuff in this country.
The problem is the Trump administration is intent on finding any reason to kick people out of the country, whether they have lawful status or not. The RealID doesn't tell them whether they have to let you go because you're a citizen.
Re: (Score:2)
To qualify for RealID your local state also must review and see a valid proof of your identity other than the previously state issued photo ID (I guess some states were lax on this previously). basically your birth certificate, social security card, and proof of residence within the state (electric bill, property tax bill, etc.).
Citizenship was never even mentioned, just that the id would be needed in the
Re: (Score:2)
To obtain a ReaIID, you do not need citizenship, but you do need to demonstrate legal status in the country. That could include one of the following:
- birth certificate from a US state;
- US passport;
- proof of permanent residency (green card); or
- employment authorization documents (i.e., visas or work permits.)
An electric bill or property-tax bill may show proof of residency but it does not show legal status.
Judge should laugh at that. (Score:5, Informative)
Yes, REALID is just a new driver's license and of course they can be faked.
The major problem is that the racists in ICE etc. like to think that illegal immigration is a serious crime, far worse than say bank robbery.
But you do not get a lawyer in immigration hearings because the Supreme Court has said it is NOT a serious crime - only being the equivalent of a Tort / Civil Infraction (i.e. speeding tickets). That is why you are not entitled to a lawyer for an Immigration Hearing (or traffic ticket), but you cannot be tried without one for a felony or misdemeanor
Re: (Score:2)
But you do not get a lawyer in immigration hearings because the Supreme Court has said it is NOT a serious crime - only being the equivalent of a Tort / Civil Infraction (i.e. speeding tickets). That is why you are not entitled to a lawyer for an Immigration Hearing (or traffic ticket), but you cannot be tried without one for a felony or misdemeanor
What are you talking about? You most definitely have the right to have a lawyer represent you for an immigration hearing or traffic ticket. The government just won't pay for one, unless you're mentally disabled.
Lawyers say... (Score:2)
The real purpose of REAL ID (Score:2)
They should have the data ... (Score:4, Informative)
This was kinda spelled out in TFS, but as I understand it, Real ID was just supposed to certify that you are who the ID says you are. It wasn't suppose to verify U.S. citizenship and non-citizens can get Real IDs too. But... you have to show a birth certificate or passport (for which you had to show a birth certificate) to get your Real ID. So they have, or had, your citizenship data at one point. The ID just doesn't show that. Perhaps they just need to update the ID with different shapes/colors for U.S. citizens / non-citizens, etc...
As a note to U.S. citizens, in addition to (or instead of) a Passport Book, you can get a Passport Card [state.gov], the size of a credit card, noting that it's only good for travel by land and sea from Canada, Mexico, Bermuda, and some Caribbean countries. It's less expensive than a Passport Book - Adult price for Card: $30 vs Book: $130. And you can have both.
Real ID should be repealed (Score:2)