Microsoft is Experimenting With a Top Menu Bar for Windows 11 (theverge.com) 95
An anonymous reader shares a report: Microsoft's PowerToys team is contemplating building a top menu bar for Windows 11, much like Linux, macOS, or older versions of Windows. The menu bar, or Command Palette Dock as Microsoft calls it, would be a new optional UI that provides quick access to tools, monitoring of system resources, and much more.
Microsoft has provided concept images of what it's looking to build, and is soliciting feedback on whether Windows users would use a PowerToy like this. "The dock is designed to be highly configurable," explains Niels Laute, a senior product manager at Microsoft. "It can be positioned on the top, left, right, or bottom edge of the screen, and extensions can be pinned to three distinct regions of the dock: start, center, and end."
Microsoft has provided concept images of what it's looking to build, and is soliciting feedback on whether Windows users would use a PowerToy like this. "The dock is designed to be highly configurable," explains Niels Laute, a senior product manager at Microsoft. "It can be positioned on the top, left, right, or bottom edge of the screen, and extensions can be pinned to three distinct regions of the dock: start, center, and end."
Re: (Score:2)
Get it right (Score:5, Interesting)
Assuming this is the equivalent of the task bar... I may be crazy but to me the natural position is right. In general, because I mostly do web dev and so work with code and web pages, vertical space is far more precious to me than the relatively abundant horizontal space. So I have my task bar/dock as a vertical column on the right, with the Start button at the top, rather than a mostly empty strip along the bottom.
I think there have been desktop systems that had it this way out of the box (NextStep?).
Of course on rotated monitors and vertically-oriented tablets I stick it at the bottom.
Re: (Score:3)
Assuming this is the equivalent of the task bar... I may be crazy but to me the natural position is right. In general, because I mostly do web dev and so work with code and web pages, vertical space is far more precious to me than the relatively abundant horizontal space. So I have my task bar/dock as a vertical column on the right, with the Start button at the top, rather than a mostly empty strip along the bottom.
I think there have been desktop systems that had it this way out of the box (NextStep?).
Of course on rotated monitors and vertically-oriented tablets I stick it at the bottom.
It's a personal preference. I have never liked them along the side. I tend toward top on Mac, Bottom on Linux.
Your preferences are rational and legit though for your work.
Re: (Score:2)
It also depends on the screens you have. I have 3:2 ratio. With KDE plasma I partially mimicked the MacOS way: menubar in panel on top, and fullscreen windows lose decorations.
The bottom panel is a "normal" panel.
I can't do panels on sides: 2 displays next to each other make sides a bit complex, and sides don't work for any kind of text without being ridiculously wide.
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:3)
You got it in one, NeXTStep provided a dock on the right side which grew from the top right corner down. This put the menu in always the same place. This only makes MORE sense in the age of wide screen displays but Apple ruined it when they made it into OSX. You can put it back where it belongs but I believe it requires plist editing, at least it did last time I did it. But that was a lot of versions ago, back when they still called it Mac OS X.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: Get it right (Score:2)
I just use KDE and put the bar at the right. You can have it grow downward but I have it on the whole side which is fine in the widescreen era.
Re: (Score:2)
You got it in one, NeXTStep provided a dock on the right side which grew from the top right corner down. This put the menu in always the same place. This only makes MORE sense in the age of wide screen displays but Apple ruined it when they made it into OSX. You can put it back where it belongs but I believe it requires plist editing, at least it did last time I did it. But that was a lot of versions ago, back when they still called it Mac OS X.
System Preferences > Dock > Position on screen.
It doesn't latch to the top right, but it's centered on the right.
AFAIK, it's always been this way in OSX (I've been running OSX/macOS since 10.2).
The equivalent native Mac function is that the Apple menu is always top-left corner, so you move your mouse to the very corner of the screen, and that's clickable. That's Mac Human Interface Guidelines going back decades, There was a kerfluffle at some point because one revision of OSX made it so the very top-l
Re: Get it right (Score:2)
Yeah you can move it to either side with a setting but if you want it to grow from the corner that takes more work. Assuming it is even still possible...
Re: (Score:3)
RIGHT?????
It goes on the LEFT!
But, yes, I agree with you that vertical space is much more of a premium now than horizontal space given the aspect ratios of monitors nowadays. It was different back in the 1980s when a lot of the UI conventions we still stick with were first established.
Re:Get it right (Score:5, Informative)
Until Windows 10, the task bar was something that could be moved - to the left, right or top: it didn't have to be anchored to the bottom. When Windows 11 was being done, they somehow decided that given the other changes they were doing - like centering the start button, it was too time-consuming to test whether those other 3 options would give optimal results if users dragged the taskbar to those 3 sides. As a result, the decision was made to anchor it to the bottom
If the menu bar is the list of functions that appears at the top of traditional applications - like File, Home, Insert,..... then Microslop is again disrupting everybody's workflow, as if the current dysfunction w/ Windows applications are not enough. I remember that 15 years ago, we used to bellyache about Steve Ballmer, but Nadella is way, way worse. He's perched in the Azure ivory tower, and is just letting, if not causing, Windows to go haywire. Just 2 days or so ago, there was the story about Microsoft admitting that Windows 11 has its issues, and instead of addressing them, they're monkeying around w/ a top menu bar, instead of letting them simply belong to whatever application they apply to and letting those application developers handle them. It's way beyond infuriating
It's too bad that ReactOS is such a POS. Maybe something like LossOS32 might be an alternative (a win32 API on top of Linux kernel project out there), or maybe another ReactOS like project, but this time w/ specific goals, milestones and funding (anchor the ultimate goal to be a Windows 7 drop in, and maybe have 2 projects - a win32 project aimed at all legacy PCs w/ anything from 64MB to 2GB of RAM, and 256MB or more of storage. While another win64 project aimed at today's computers, w/ requirements of 8GB of RAM and 256GB storage. The latter can also be made available for non-x86 architectures like RISC-V, Arm, and even those legacy RISC CPUs that Microsoft abandoned - Alpha and MIPS R4x00, R8000 and R10000
Re: (Score:2)
Naturally, such an essential part of the UI shouldn't be tested because it's too time-consuming.
I'm getting real tired of UX people hard-coding interfaces a particular way, and justifying it because it's wah wah too hard to test. Yeah, it totally has nothing to do with mile-high egos and their "vision" or anything.
This goes for FOSS projects, too. I'm frequently told that Linux desktops are infinitely configurable, but I've been quite let down by the lack of options on modern Linux DEs. That's especially
Re: (Score:2)
The real point is that the flexibility did previously exist, so there was no good reason to change the UI, thereby necessitating getting rid of that flexibility. In other words, for this particular feature, nothing needed to change from Windows 10 to 11. Like I suggested elsewhere, give everybody the Theme option in personalization, where they can choose whether they want their UI to look like anything from Windows 95 to Windows 11
Re: (Score:3)
Some of us use large monitors. Mine is a 42" 4K TV, which I love, because there is so much real estate not blocked by dividing bars. And, a 4K TV is far cheaper than equivalent standard monitors.
Anyway, a top bar on such a large screen would be completely unusable.
Re: (Score:3)
Get it left.
One of the problems is there really is no perfect location. Everything will ruin someone's workflow. Your example on the right while good on vertical screen space would drive me mental due to overshooting from the mouse when accessing a scrollbar (vertical scrolling is easier than horizontal scrolling for this reason). My vote is the bar on the left.
But then it overshooting the File menu will result in starting an app, that's the same problem as on the top.
The bottom right now is one of the plac
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
I like it on the left, so text is truncated more naturally.
Re: (Score:2)
I may be crazy but to me the natural position is right.
If you are communicating in a language that renders from the right side to the left side, then the right side is fine. Perfect even. If your language renders from left to right, then the left side is the perfect side.
Re: (Score:2)
This looks more like the notification bar on the top of Android or iOS, it's in addition to the TaskBar not a replacement. Also it would take up even more of that precious vertical space.
Ads? (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Oh! The Innovation (Score:5, Insightful)
So they took it away, then offer it back and say it's innovation? or news?
honestly. So much said about so little.
Re:Oh! The Innovation (Score:5, Insightful)
You could move it around all the way from Windows 95 to Windows 7.
Heck, search youtube for those videos where they upgrade one windows version to the next all the way from 1.0 to 10 (or 11). I know I remember one where they set custom colors around Win 2.0 and those settings persisted all the way to 7.
Now your choices are "dark mode" and changing font sizes. Hooray.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
And you can still do it on Windows 10 22H2 to this day.
Re: (Score:3)
In XP, one could move the menu within the application. In other words, it didn't have to be the first layer of icons: it could be the second, third or fourth, or even at the bottom of the application in some cases, if one wanted it that way
It's different here: they're talking about anchoring a menu bar to the top, like it was with Mac OS System 9 and earlier, or OS/2. In other words, that will keep changing depending on what the active window is at any given instant. Just perfect to keep distracting a
Re: Oh! The Innovation (Score:3)
It's different here: they're talking about anchoring a menu bar to the top, like it was with Mac OS System 9 and earlier, or OS/2. In other words, that will keep changing depending on what the active window is at any given instant
User will just type a prompt for copilot to move the toolbar.
Re: (Score:2)
what a deformed abomination that was.
Re: (Score:2)
So they took it away, then offer it back and say it's innovation? or news?
No one said this is innovation. This is something you made up in your head so you could get angry. Take a chill pill. But given how you can't currently do it, the fact that they are considering it going forward is very much news.
Re: (Score:2)
I'm not angry. I haven't used Windows in 20 years.
Sorry I just read the last sentence of your post.
That this IS news.. it's just sad. for you.
1984 (Score:2)
You mean a main point of the "look and feel" lawsuits after the 1984 introduction of the original Macintosh? Not "like linux." Not even like unix. X windows was just a way to bring up more VT100 terms at the time. So the real headline would be "final nail in the coffin of the look and feel era." Or "Microsoft finally admits that Apple had it right in 1984."
Not sure Apple got it right (Score:2)
I use a Mac but I still don't like the multi-mode finder bar whereby the menu for the app in focus appears in it. If you want the actual finder bar back you have to click on the desktop first then use it. Not ideal. I can understand why they'd do it in 1984 but there's little reason for it now. Just make main menus appear by default over the main app window like in every other OS.
It's going to be (Score:2)
OS/2 Warp! (Score:2)
Got the bar on the top yo
Re: (Score:2)
OS/2 had a completely different UI. In this case, we have now 30 years of people used to a Windows UI that has the taskbar at the bottom and individual menu bars for each application in each application window. People are used to this workflow, so no wonder, Microslop now has to monkey around w/ it
Maybe it's worth resurrecting OS/2. Anyone know how the osFree project is doing? (OS/2 API on an L4 microkernel)
Re: (Score:2)
OS/2 has changed names several times and now goes by Arca OS. https://www.arcanoae.com/arcao... [arcanoae.com]
I used Warp 4 during the win 95 era.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Yes eComStation folks closed down and Arca Noae took it over. Runs great on new hardware!!
-m
Re: OS/2 Warp! (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
mod parent up!
Win 10 (Score:1)
Nice try, but ... (Score:5, Funny)
Microsoft is Experimenting With a Top Menu Bar for Windows 11
The Windows 11 menu bar will always be a bottom. :-)
Re:Nice try, but ... (Score:5, Informative)
That's the task bar. The menu bar is something unique to each application, and is a part of an application window. For instance, if you open Word, you have File, Home, Insert, Draw, Layout, References, Mailings, Review, View and Help. Whereas Excel has File, Home, Insert, Draw, Page Layout, Formulas, Data, Review, View and Help. It will be different for every application, even from the same company, which is why it's a ridiculous decision to anchor it to the top. That may have worked well in the past for OSs like Mac OS System 9 and earlier, or as someone mentioned, OS/2 Warp, but their users were used to that. In this case, Windows users will have to unlearn something that they've happily lived w/ for 30 years, just so that bored programmers at Microsoft have something to present to their bosses
No Thanks (Score:3)
No thank you. Instead, fix the bugs and remove the advertising.
Re: (Score:2)
"Remove the advertising"?
Isn't advertising the whole business model of most tech companies nowadays?
Re: (Score:2)
"Remove the advertising"?
Isn't advertising the whole business model of most tech companies nowadays?
That or "something, something, Future AI, something, something."
Re: (Score:2)
Yeah... these days, it's probably that.
New Name (Score:3, Funny)
The name will change from Windows 11 to Windows 3.11.
Windows 3.11 (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
I agree w/ your other points, but 32-bit support was the least of their issues during those days, when the top CPUs were 386s and 486s. What win32s did was make available native applications for Windows 95 once it was out, while other win32 apps were being developed
Re: (Score:2)
Start menu (Score:2)
I used to try to use my task bar at the top of Windows, but windowed mode applications would always slowly creep up the screen as they were minimized and reopened with the top of the windowed application ending up under the task bar unable to access the minimize, maximize and close buttons. This behavior happened under multiple versions of Windows.
so there adding Norton Dedktop For Windows to 11 (Score:1)
yea this was there 30 years ago in windows 3.1 3.11 with norton desktop for windows. It was fantastic never chrashed and had norton commander for windows as its file explorer.
Re: (Score:2)
Let's not quibble (Score:3)
They want to put a bar at the top of the screen to show ads. You know it, I know it.
Re: (Score:2)
Microsoft priorities -- (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
Yeah, one more redesign of the UI isn't something anybody asked for. Just like AI -- just because it's shiny and new (or in this case recycled) doesn't do a thing to fix the problems with Win11. Start putting out competent updates and dial back the user manipulation, and maybe then you can think about new features.
Re: (Score:2)
Apple changed the UI to Liquid Glass which has annoyed a majority of Mac users. Therefore Microsoft has decided to screw up their UI as well. Have to keep up after all.
I think both companies have outsourced Marketing to Sirius Cybernetics.
Just like AI -- just because it's shiny and new (or in this case recycled) doesn't do a thing to fix the problems with MacOS. Start putting out competent updates and dial back the user manipulation, and maybe then you can think about new features.
That shoe sure fit well.
Accessing things? (Score:2)
Multiple task bars (Score:2)
Where? (Score:2)
I've never had an easy time trying to get a menubar on linux? I don't mean the useless bar at the top of the screen; I mean actual drop down menu bar that changes based on which app is in focus. Like a Mac.
I sure hope windows does this simply to make all of Linux copy the feature instead of this stupid menu per-window waste they default to since forever. That is, if you can configure a real menubar because I've rarely had that working. again... how does one do this? A specific window manager? for how long
This looks familiar... (Score:3)
Funny how much this looks like how I've had my Cinnamon desktop configured for almost a decade...system menu at the top left, widgets, clock etc on the top right, open applications top center; then at bottom center is the open application windows on each particular monitor, and bottom right is the virtual desktop switcher and system sensors widget. I've used this configuration since switching from Ubuntu 11.04's first attempt at the Unity desktop (tried it for 30 days, it just did NOT work well for me - couldn't be customized at all for one thing) over to MATE on Linux Mint 13. MATE was decent, but I tried out Cinnamon about a month later and haven't gone back. In my multi-monitor setups I have panels (toolbars) on every monitor, with different information on each. Let's see Windows get *that* flexible...
No thanks (Score:3)
Gross.
It's bad enough seeing the sheeple who are content with their task bar icons in the center. We don't need more en-Mac-ification.
Leave the software alone (Score:2)
I don't need new UI features, I need the OS to work and stop moving my tools where I can't find them. At some point UI is going to mature and doesn't need to be changed, so leave it alone if the features are the same. Also, make it better and faster to use not worse.
Re: (Score:2)
The UI was perfect in Windows 7. Everything since 8 has been a downgrade, aside from 10 fixing the issues 8 had, but still being worse than 7
Since Microsoft now has a stable business in Azure, which is the bulk of their business, they should, in Windows 12, give people the ability to pick any "theme" - from Windows 95 to Windows 11 - as their UI, restore some of the applications they mucked w/, such as Paint, Paint 3D, WordPad, Notepad,... and make the only maintenance exercise that they do:
Task Bar anyone? (Score:2)
As part of Win11, that sounds an awful lot like the task bar. Why not just allow the task bar to be positioned at the top as well as the bottom? If it's application-specific, doesn't that belong in the application window as part of it's menu bar or status bar or as a side bar?
Re: Task Bar anyone? (Score:2)
But my thought was: if this will be customisable enough to somewhat serve as a task bar replacement, maybe I could use this to finally get rid of the stupidly-stuck-to-the-bottom W11 task bar. I've used Explorer Patcher before to fix it, but since it's my work computer, that wasn't appreciated by the security guys (it patches system DLLs
I switched to Debian instead of upgrading (Score:1)
still copying (Score:2)
Microsoft is still copying Mac after all these years.
Re: (Score:2)
Well, iOS 26 seems to have copied the Aqua translucent theme from Windows 7
Not what I'm looking for from Windoze 11 (Score:1)
Sorry Micro$oft. This is not the droid I'm looking for from you.
I want
- Less slop
- Less copilot
- Less telemetry
- Less advertisements (I paid for this product, why are you flooding me with ads and upsells)
- Less upselling your services I don't want or need to use.
- Less Micro$oft accounts: 0 (ZERO) would be an ideal number.
MWTA - Make Windoze Tollerable Again! (Great is too far a stretch, you made us upgrade from Windoze that was Great)
Re: (Score:2)
You want usability, reliability, security. MS does not do these things anymore.
30 mins of coding at most for any semi-decent dev (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
Yep. Probably the same time to put that into my fvwm2 setup. If I fuss with it.
MS is making big announcements over meaningless things.
taskbar on top... (Score:1)
Instead of silly cosmetic changes (Score:2)
...fix the bugs
Stop trying to shove new crap at us. If it's good, we will choose it voluntarily. If it's a default that can't be disabled, it's probably bad
Re: (Score:2)
...fix the bugs
I think they cannot do that anymore to any meaningful degree. Too much technological debt heaped up. Windows 11 is basically a stage 4 cancer patient. Still somewhat functional but with no future.
Great artists steal... (Score:1)
...I guess
Used to be possible (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
The might also want to (Score:2)
hire a new person with the part of a job they have for making names for things you build and put on or in the things you and the people in the building with you make.
Screen space (Score:2)
How is it that Microsoft have never understood the relative priority of YOUR actual work area (especially vertical space), compared to the need for imemdiate access to a ton of secondary crap features that no-one ever really uses?
Any of the Office apps and also their programming IDEs immediately come to mind as great examples.
Everyone follow the pied piper (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Probably. Despite the idiots moderating you down.
"Llike Linux"? WTH? (Score:2)
If I want a top menu bar, I can put one into my fvwm2 setup. I do not. Because I know something that MS is completely ignorant of: Vertical screen-space is valuable. These cretins simply do not get it.