Border Officials Are Said To Have Caused El Paso Closure by Firing Anti-Drone Laser (nytimes.com) 116
An anonymous reader shares a report: The abrupt closure of El Paso's airspace late Tuesday was precipitated when Customs and Border Protection officials deployed an anti-drone laser on loan from the Department of Defense without giving aviation officials enough time to assess the risks to commercial aircraft, according to multiple people briefed on the situation.
The episode led the Federal Aviation Administration to abruptly declare that the nearby airspace would be shut down for 10 days, an extraordinary pause that was quickly lifted Wednesday morning at the direction of the White House. Top administration officials quickly claimed that the closure was in response to a sudden incursion of drones from Mexican drug cartels that required a military response, with Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy declaring in a social media post that "the threat has been neutralized."
But that assertion was undercut by multiple people familiar with the situation, who said that the F.A.A.'s extreme move came after immigration officials earlier this week used an anti-drone laser shared by the Pentagon without coordination with the F.A.A. The people spoke on the condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak publicly. C.B.P. officials thought they were firing on a cartel drone, the people said, but it turned out to be a party balloon. Defense Department officials were present during the incident, one person said.
The episode led the Federal Aviation Administration to abruptly declare that the nearby airspace would be shut down for 10 days, an extraordinary pause that was quickly lifted Wednesday morning at the direction of the White House. Top administration officials quickly claimed that the closure was in response to a sudden incursion of drones from Mexican drug cartels that required a military response, with Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy declaring in a social media post that "the threat has been neutralized."
But that assertion was undercut by multiple people familiar with the situation, who said that the F.A.A.'s extreme move came after immigration officials earlier this week used an anti-drone laser shared by the Pentagon without coordination with the F.A.A. The people spoke on the condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak publicly. C.B.P. officials thought they were firing on a cartel drone, the people said, but it turned out to be a party balloon. Defense Department officials were present during the incident, one person said.
Re: The balloon never knew what hit it (Score:2)
Ok, your us of a definitely sucks eggs. How can "white house" tell FAA what to do? That NTSB lady should shut it down now, noone can tell her what to do from what I've seen. If she can that is...
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Re: The balloon never knew what hit it (Score:4, Informative)
Ok, your us of a definitely sucks eggs. How can "white house" tell FAA what to do? That NTSB lady should shut it down now, noone can tell her what to do from what I've seen. If she can that is...
Yep.
The administration isn't even capable of lying convincingly any more.
The fact Trump hasn't fired Pam Bondi after her disastrous display. Shows she was doing exactly what he wanted.
pedo protecting, lying and incompetence goes right to the top.
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Standard operating procedure (Score:2)
Unitary Executive Theory [cornell.edu] is a thing that Conservatives and the Trump administration strongly support and are operating as if it is already established fact.
FAA is part of US Department of Transportation, which is an executive department. This means that DOT is head by a secretary appointed by the President. And FAA is head by an administrator appointed by the President. So regardless of one's opinion of UET, it would not be unusual for a sitting President to ask heads of departments that he appointed to do
99 balloons (Score:4, Insightful)
Just one? That's ok then, I guess.
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*has terrifying flashbacks to the recentish Celestial Toymaker episode.
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That will be the workaround, send 100 balloons and one drone with drugs... while everyone is looking high to the balloons, send the drone low and no one will notice! :D
Or send the drone attached to the balloon, only after it pops (ie: taken down), it will be activated after a few seconds and fly away
So ... (Score:4, Insightful)
Seems though it, was the drones? Just that the drones required the laser and the FAA freaked about the laser and shut down the airspace.
I mean, if they are not firing the laser at Commercial or GA aircraft indiscriminately, why would the FAA need to close the airspace? And, right off the bat for 10 days?
Someone at the FAA is either on heavy anti anxiety meds that no longer work, or they wanted to make it a big deal, Right?
Maybe I am wrong but, I don't get the decision making tree here.
Re:So ... (Score:5, Insightful)
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Laser operators are going to mistake a 737 for a cartel drone?
Re: So ... (Score:5, Insightful)
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Yet just a few years ago, we had a MASSIVE huge balloon, a spy balloon from China slowly wend it's way across the whole US over military bases and other sensitive sites on the ground.....and didn't take any action till it had essentially completed it's mission and they shot it down with a missile over the ocean off the east coast I believe....
Is there not a happy medium for dealing with UFOs?
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well, at least one of those was actually really a weather balloon... but panic is always the best choice for many officials
Re: So ... (Score:4, Informative)
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Military tends to be better trained than law enforcement and my gut tells me if you deployed these to 100 commands and put them in a dozen hands at each one. You'd be due for an incident somewhere in 4 years.
Training people so they can hand over a firearm without negligent discharge is impossible. Why? I dunno but every year people shoot themselves or someone else despite X and Y number of certification and training hours and even deployment of tooling like clearing barrels.
SO WHAT WAS YOUR RATE? (Score:1)
I was a boatswain mate and deployed twice doing interdiction operations and exercising right of transit passage in the Persian gulf and the straits of hormuz. we intercepted nuclear centrifuges on their way to syria as well.
When i got out i signed up for a cop forum to see if i wanted to do that sort of work, at the time I thought they were all fake because of their rambo gung ho talk of blowing people's faces off which contradicted literally all of my training. of course smartphones would eventually bec
Re:So ... (Score:5, Insightful)
I get it, but, really? Laser operators are going to mistake a 737 for a cartel drone?
These are CBP laser operators. You know, the agency responsible for the current crop of ICE agents who couldn't catch a clue if you carefully placed it in their hands.
I seriously would not discount the likelihood - never mind the mere possibility - of one of those yahoos mistaking a jumbo jet for a drone.
The Bible sez Tribulation would only be 7 years (Score:1)
Re: The Bible sez Tribulation would only be 7 year (Score:2)
Of course not, they would fire the laser at the capital building.
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Yes, the folks who murdered a US citizen instead saying that it was related to the immigrant that was allegedly in some building around, but neither the woman being pushed around or the man who was shot was in their way....
Getting all pissy about getting filmed and yelled at and abusing and killing citizens instead of even trying to do the job they were allegedly there for.
I certainly wouldn't trust them with any equipment that requires a modicum of responsibility, judgement, and capability.
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Happened in the Iraq war. ...
An idiot at a Patriot trigger shot down two Tornadoes in landing approach. Aka: slow, flaps out, gear down
4 pilots dead.
And a Tornado is pretty unique aircraft, despite the fact that Iraq at that time supposedly had no fighters left.
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Correction: "Mistaking a Panavia Tornado with literally ANYTHING in Iraq's inventory." Just look at the Tornado and compare & contrast with the MiGs and Mirages Iraq operated at the time. To get those mixed up with a Tornado, you'd have to be blind, an idiot, or a blind idiot.
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What about the Russians doing that [wikipedia.org] although they used a missile rather than a laser? It was 13-14 months ago.
Re:So ... (Score:4, Insightful)
It happens all the time. In the last ten years the Russians have done it a couple times, Iranians once. Going further back the Americans have done it too. One of the reasons we have civilian access to GPS is because the Russians shot down a Korean 747.
There's a famous video of some carrier personel getting excited about 737s on approach to LAX. More video of the US congress being told they're drones, or UFOs or something.
And those are supposedly trained military types. Well, except for one of the Russian shootdowns, allegedly.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Laser operators are going to mistake a 737 for a cartel drone?
The same laser operators who supposedly mistook a balloon for a cartel drone? Yes, plausibly.
That'd be the only part of this whole story that is plausible though.
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They mistook a party balloon for a drone, so why not?
Then there's simply missing the target and hitting whatever might be behind it. Lasers go a long way.
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Did you not understand my statement?
Re: So ... (Score:3)
Do you not get how stupid these people are?
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Do you not understand that there is no bottom limit on human stupidity?
A person stupid enough to not only mistake a mylar balloon for a drone, but also decide that this particular drone needs to be shot down right now using a new laser weapon in a public airspace over a US city, regardless of consequences, is most likely stupid enough to make larger mistakes.
Are you seriously that naive?
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That said, with the mindset you are advocating
It is not about and has never been about panicking about the worst thing that could happen
no matter how small the chance because, "STUPID PEOPLE ARE REALLY STUPID!"
The fact is that we have air defense systems up and running over the entire country,
since the 50s. Large airliners fly over houses, wires with 100s of thousands of volts of electricity
cross the country. Large bodies of water exist wit
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You really just publicly equated "Shut down specific airspace where a person is actively firing a laser weapon" with "Shut down all airspace everywhere because something similar might happen".
Thanks for confirming there is no lower bound on stupidity.
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I get it, but, really?
Laser operators are going to mistake a 737 for a cartel drone?
Not like the head of the Department Of War (sigh) accidentally texted classified information to a journalist...
Re: So ... (Score:2)
It's a good thing there is AI because they are going to need it too erase all the Trump crayon marks renaming everything.
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MH17. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
I was on the same flight a few weeks earlier.
Fucking ruzzkie murderers from a regular anti-aircraft unit.
Re:So ... (Score:5, Informative)
Not to call you stupid, but you are stupid if you point any laser to a plane, specially at night!! During the day, there isn't much issue but during the night can be very dangerous.
Even weak lasers can travel far, and during the night, our eyes open more to receive more light and see. The fact that a weak can reach the plane and light it enough to cause temporary blindness to pilots, that guess, need their eyes to read all the info and control the plane.
If the plane is high enough, usually isn't much a issue, pilots can recover and the laser may be weak enough by the distance, but during landing and take off this is extremely dangerous. And notice that Landing and Take off isn't just a few meter of the ground, it is until you reach a high enough altitude and speed, so may high enough that some people think it is ok to play. FAA bans the lasers this exactly because of all the variables, starting by the laser power to the altitude and direction of the plane, there are so many things that you have to account for a normal person to even notice. So it is much simpler and safer to ban at all times. Yet there are more and more people doing this joke.
The same with drones, at high altitudes can be a problem, but during take off or landing, they can extremely dangerous... but some people think it is fine to "take a picture"
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I mean, I would rather have the military check their damned target before firing a military-grade laser.
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Re:So ... (Score:5, Informative)
If the border patrol can't tell the difference between a drone and a balloon then it's probably a wise move to make sure there are no planes around where they're playing with their pew pew lasers.
Lasers are famous for doing things you don't expect. Reflecting off a shiny mylar balloon and blinding pilots for example.
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DHS employees can't tell the difference between a white American lesbian and a dangerous criminal illegal immigrant.
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Apparently drones flown by drug cartels actually are an increasing problem at the border. I'm not clear if they are just surveilling border patrol positions or actually carrying drugs.
Re:So ... (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm guessing two things went into the FAA's decision making:
1) Just like there was uncertainty in the reporting, there was also uncertainty in the FAA as to what the hell was going on. So shutting down the airspace is very prudent.
2) CBP shooting down an object without giving the FAA sufficient notice is a big fracking deal. It very well could have been a civilian aircraft. Making the shutdown a 10 day shutdown guarantees that it becomes national news, which guarantees that reporters will dig into it, CBP will get embarrassed, and they hopefully won't do it again.
Re: So ... (Score:3)
Many people have not adjusted to thugs with toddler mentality being given free reign to use deadly force, so you are being really harsh on the FAA. It used to be that the people with billion dollar lasers didn't "shoot from the hip" but the Trump administration has done away with any inconvenient thinking. It's hard to adapt to. I wonder how long it took people to get used to Hitler.... Oh no wait I guess even he ran a tighter ship.
Re: (Score:2)
I mean, if they are not firing the laser at Commercial or GA aircraft indiscriminately, why would the FAA need to close the airspace?
A laser is essentially light. Light with special properties, but still light. Light travels from the edges of the universe to your eye. Obviously, the FAA is not going to try to shut down the entire universe to protect pilots eyes, but they will close down all airspace where that light could potentially hit a pilots eyes.
Since these are not normal lasers used for light shows and such, there is actual danger to the aircraft, not "just" the pilot.
Explain to me why you think the airspace should be open when un
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10 days because there was a previously scheduled meeting 9 days in in the future to discuss protocols for using the laser in coordination with the FAA in order to prevent shooting things down that shouldn't be shot down. But the 12-year old boys in ICE/Border Control decided they couldn't wait to try out their new toy to shoot down a 'dang
People will die (Score:5, Interesting)
This outrageous level of paranoia over "alleged" drone sightings will cost human lives soon.
Here we have the US military mis-identifying a party balloon as a drone and firing a powerful laser at it -- while members of the public get prosecuted every year for flicking their laser-pointers at helicopters and airliners.
In Germany, police will be allowed to shoot at "alleged" drones [theguardian.com] even though it has been clearly proven that most (if not all) of the recent drone sightings were simply mis-identified aircraft lights.
Can anyone see the potential for disaster here?
The mis-identification of aircraft flying at night as "drones" has become rife, dating back beyond the NY/NJ "drone" incidents that caused such concern in the USA a year or two ago. Almost without exception, these "drones" are real aircraft (often passenger flights) carrying people through the skies. How long before one of them is shot down by paranoid trigger-happy idiots?
Paranoia is a mental health issue and it's infecting governments and authorities around the world.
Before someone says "but... Ukraine..." I ask you: how many people have died as the result of actions by bad actors using drones in the USA or outside the war zones in Europe?
That's a big fat ZERO!
Yes, it "could" happen but right now it's far more likely that innocent people will die from friendly fire produced by paranoid idiots on the ground with guns and lasers.
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
For two or three weeks during that time, I saw many aircraft in my area that were unlike any others I had ever seen (and I spent most of my life living under the approach route of an international airport). Th
Re: People will die (Score:5, Informative)
Yeah. Sure. It wasn't that you were misidentifying large, loud, distant aircraft as small, quiet, low flying aircraft. Sure. Absolutely. You wouldn't make such a mistake. Not like all those other people we know are making these same misidentifications. You are the gold standard for reporting drone aircraft. If only we could send you to Ukraine to identify enemy drones...
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If only we could send you to Ukraine to identify enemy drones...
In non-Soviet Ukraine, enemy drones identify you!
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Just throw out a pedo protection story to cover what really bad things you're doing...
The fact Trump hasn't fired Pam Bondi after her disastrous display. Shows she was doing exactly what he wanted.
pedo protecting goes right to the top.
When Trump needs his next distraction he knows where to turn.
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The fact Trump hasn't fired Pam Bondi after her disastrous display. Shows she was doing exactly what he wanted.
pedo protecting goes right to the top.
Note who was chairing that hearing. They don't call him Gym Jordan for nothing.
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You are absolutely right, and the likely response by said officials will be "oops, have a scandal to divert your attention".
And Ukraine is only a problem area because those same officials don't take anything seriously unless it impacts their promotion prospects.
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Yes, it "could" happen but right now it's far more likely that innocent people will die from friendly fire produced by paranoid idiots on the ground with guns and lasers.
The airspace was closed to everything including medevac. There seems to be a variety of avenues for disaster from fools cosplaying Captain Kirk.
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This outrageous level of paranoia over "alleged" drone sightings will cost human lives soon.
Here we have the US military mis-identifying a party balloon as a drone and firing a powerful laser at it
The balloon was released as a real target, it was not some random object that they were shooting at. Do you really think CBP is sitting there demonstrating a brand new laser that was loaned to them and they were just lucky enough to have an object to shoot at? This was a demonstration, not an active response.
If you have a hammer (Score:3)
The best people (Score:3, Insightful)
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Remind me again... What language do they speak in Mexico and why?
Dumbass.
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They speak Spanish and recognize over 68 indigenous languages from the displaced tribes they conquered.
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Now Mexico City? That sits upon the stolen capital of a fucking empire, lol
No more DEI in CBP and DoD ...FAA not on Signal (Score:1)
... only very competent white MAGA men ...
Was the action coordinated on Signal?
FAA should be on the chat...
Shoot first... (Score:3)
Your tax dollars at work, ladies and gentlemen.
One more passenger in the clown car. (Score:2)
Blame it on a boogeyman but, "it was just here, it's gone now." They would should print it on shirts to save some time. Just point and move on to deflection.
The next party balloon ... (Score:1)
... will have cameras and telemetry on it that feed back to TEH CARTELS.
Oh, and it will have fentanyl er I mean candy inside so when it pops everyone gets a treat.
Seriously, if I were the cartels reading this I'd be exploring how to "flood the zone" with party balloons and put cameras on a few of them.
Yeah, that never happened (Score:2)
Yeah, that "drug cartel drone invasion" never happened.
Someone goofed.
Vote for clowns, (Score:4, Insightful)
Get clowns.
This sort of thing is what happens... (Score:4, Insightful)
When a leader's #1 job requirement is being a sycophant and there is no #2.
This is just a continuation of the crap we keep seeing because the cabinet was populated with toadies and Congress is led by cowards. Trump chose an incompetent person to head DHS; who then installs incompetent (or even evil) people to head CPB, ICE, etc.; who then inevitably keep making bad decisions that the population has to live with (or die with, as we've also seen).
The good news is, because of this it'll probably go very badly for Trump at the midterms.
The bad news is, the ongoing damage will take years-to-decades to repair - assuming it can be repaired at all.
Re:This sort of thing is what happens... (Score:5, Informative)
The good news is, because of this it'll probably go very badly for Trump at the midterms.
He's already laying the groundwork to invalidate or take over control of the midterms to ensure that your vote only counts if it's for his toadies.
So that's not really the problem (Score:3)
The real problem is county level voter suppression. The most common tactic is thousands and thousands of illegal signature and voter registration challenges. If you get one you have t
Re: (Score:2)
Well, there was the Steve Bannon proposal about identifying "risky" voting locations and deploying ICE to 'manage' the situation, and the White House refused to deny that course of action. More vaguely they talked about GOP "taking control" of voting locations more directly from Trump, though no one knows exactly what he meant. Around here they are shutting down a number of college campus polling locations and other democratic hotspots to make it more difficult to vote. They both are trying to impair mail-i
Yeah that is a potential risk (Score:1)
I do think that we need to figure out something about how conservative Latino voters are. Also Indian voters. Those are two huge voting blocks for the Republicans that the only reason they don't reliably vote Red is because the Republicans are racist as fuck.
Re: (Score:2)
The two party stuff is just ridiculous to cover the gamut of what people want. Need more diversity of viewpoints and avoiding the potential for one party to go so off the rails and enjoy so much control without having to really work with anyone outside their circle.
Wut? (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
How slow do they think the speed of light is? We fired a laser in the air...better close it for 10 days!
The FAA didn't close the airspace for 10 days because they thought the atmosphere was lasermatrogrified and they had to wait for 10 days for it to dismatrogrify. But it was something equally silly. Per TFS:
Top administration officials quickly claimed that the closure was in response to a sudden incursion of drones from Mexican drug cartels that required a military response, with Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy declaring in a social media post that "the threat has been neutralized."
Translation: they thought a party balloon was "a sudden incursion of drones from Mexican drug cartels that required a military response." But don't worry, "the threat has been neutralized." Phew, that was a close one.
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I expect it went something like this:
Somebody: Hey, FAA, the DOD gave ICE anti-air weapons and they're shooting at something in El Paso!
FAA: Shit. Close the airspace now! We don't need our own Malaysia flight 17, Ukraine flight 752 or Azerbaijan flight 8243!
ICE: It's safe! We got it!
FAA: Jesus. You've got to warn us when you do this stuff. At least everyone's safe. What was it?
ICE: Party balloon.
FAA: !?
Suzie Wiles: Idiots. You can't say that. Let's go with "terrorist cartel drug drone."
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Better a balloon than something else (Score:2)
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A couple of other examples:
- Iran shot an Air Ukraine flight down (this was before the Russians invaded Ukraine) because they thought it was Israeli, and they had reason to expect an air strike from that direction.
- Russia shot an Azerbajani passenger flight down because they were expecting Ukrainian drones (I can't remember whether they were already under attack from that direction).
Re: (Score:2)
There are dozens of examples of smaller flights being whacked by State militaries too- sub-100 passenger planes. You don't want to be flying those around anything hostile.
Who is getting fired (Score:2)
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That someone needs to be held accountable.
I'm not sure what you've seen out of this administration that would indicate holding people accountable for their actions was on the table. I mean, if you said something mean about Trump or his goon squad that's going to garner some attention, but that's really the end of the list.
China just wanted to celebrate (Score:2)
What a lovely gift to give the cartels (Score:2)
So one of the outcomes of this incident is that it tells the
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Do not look into laser with remaining eye (Score:2)
US defeated for less than $100? (Score:2)
So now the Chinese/Russians/Iranians/NKoreans/Danish/Venezuelans/Canadians/PuertoRicans can effectively shut down US airspace for a week+ by purchasing and releasing a few dozen mylar balloons from the dollar store?
99 Red Balloons (Score:2)
Buy a bag of balloons with the money we've got
Set them free at the break of dawn
'Til one by one, they were gone
Back at base, bugs in the software
Flash the message, "Something's out there"
Floating in the summer sky
Ninety-nine red balloons go by
Ninety-nine red balloons
Floating in the summer sky
Panic bells, it's red alert
There's something here from somewhere else
The war machine springs to life
Opens up one eager eye
Focusing it on the sky
When ninety-nine red balloons
What a fucking clown show (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: What a fucking clown show (Score:2)
What happens when it is incompetence that a majority of the voters want? Welcome to the USA.
sad (Score:2)
The really sad part is you know Trump is thinking about his golf game instead of all the people who may have been highly inconvenienced by this event. There will be no reprimands unless someone drives a golf cart across a green.
As usual (Score:2)
"We have the best people."
obligatory (Score:1)