Waymo is Asking DoorDash Drivers To Shut the Doors of Its Self-Driving Cars (techcrunch.com) 87
Waymo's autonomous vehicles can transport passengers across six cities without a human driver, but the Alphabet-owned company has discovered that its cars become completely inert if a passenger accidentally leaves a door open. The company confirmed that it is now paying DoorDash drivers in Atlanta to close these doors as part of a pilot program.
A Reddit post from a DoorDash driver showed an offer of $6.25 to drive less than one mile to a Waymo vehicle and close its door, plus an additional $5 after verified completion. Waymo and DoorDash told TechCrunch the post is legitimate. The door-closing partnership began earlier this year and is separate from the autonomous delivery service the two companies launched in Phoenix in October. Waymo has also worked with Honk, a towing service app, in Los Angeles on the same problem. Honk users in L.A. have been offered up to $24 to close a Waymo door. Future Waymo vehicles will have automated door closures.
A Reddit post from a DoorDash driver showed an offer of $6.25 to drive less than one mile to a Waymo vehicle and close its door, plus an additional $5 after verified completion. Waymo and DoorDash told TechCrunch the post is legitimate. The door-closing partnership began earlier this year and is separate from the autonomous delivery service the two companies launched in Phoenix in October. Waymo has also worked with Honk, a towing service app, in Los Angeles on the same problem. Honk users in L.A. have been offered up to $24 to close a Waymo door. Future Waymo vehicles will have automated door closures.
Be kind, please rewind (Score:5, Insightful)
The video tape rental business solved this type of issue by billing customers if they returned a tape without rewinding it.
Add an extra charge to a fare if they don't properly close the door. If the door won't close, they can report a fault to avoid the charge. It'll cut down drastically on the need to hire third parties and completely avoid the need to add automatic door closure systems.
Re:Be kind, please rewind (Score:5, Interesting)
The video tape rental business solved this type of issue by billing customers if they returned a tape without rewinding it.
Add an extra charge to a fare if they don't properly close the door. If the door won't close, they can report a fault to avoid the charge. It'll cut down drastically on the need to hire third parties and completely avoid the need to add automatic door closure systems.
This isn't quite the same. A video tape does not block or impede traffic if you don't rewind it. An autonomous car with it's door(s) open does. For these systems to be successful, they need to be able to self correct for errors, including doors left open.
Re:Be kind, please rewind (Score:5, Funny)
This isn't quite the same. A video tape does not block or impede traffic if you don't rewind it.
..says the Millennial who's never held up an angry Blockbuster line on a Friday night waiting for the only copy of Top Gun to finish rewinding.
"Iceman" in the buzzcut was pissed I got the last rental. Never bicycled faster in my life. Almost took out 7 grannies worth of sidewalk traffic at the bus stop.
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Iceman was a character in Top Gun, IIRC. Not sure how it connects with geekmux's story.
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Iceman was a character in Top Gun, IIRC. Not sure how it connects with geekmux's story.
The connection might be that geekmux was "waiting for the only copy of Top Gun to finish rewinding" before he could take it. I'm not sure though - that was just a guess... ;-}
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Iceman was a character in Top Gun, IIRC. Not sure how it connects with geekmux's story.
The connection might be that geekmux was "waiting for the only copy of Top Gun to finish rewinding" before he could take it. I'm not sure though - that was just a guess... ;-}
I feel like I'm having to explain a joke four decades ol..shit. Nevermind.
Jokes people. Just jokes. Yes, of course a reference to Top Gun and a pun on holding up VHS-derived traffic, circa 1986.
(Cripes, one would have thought I said "I'm you Huckleberry, Mav..come Goose me before I fire this laser across the quad." by the way the audience was quite confused. Thou offeth my aged lawn sewn from vintage seed.)
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I feel like I'm having to explain a joke four decades ol..shit. Nevermind.
Jokes people. Just jokes. Yes, of course a reference to Top Gun and a pun on holding up VHS-derived traffic, circa 1986.
I still don't get the joke, even though it seems that you and I are roughly the same vintage. Wouldn't be the first time I missed something obvious while thinking I was the one who was clued in...
Thou offeth my aged lawn sewn from vintage seed.)
Still trying to figure out whether "sewn" was a typo, a misplaced homonym, or a friendly bit of trolling. I guess my brain is having a slow day. :-)
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Now let's get back to why any company in a country where people like that are, ahem, not sufficien
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At the time, there were people who styled their hair to match Iceman (Val Kilmer with bleached short spiky hair), so presumably there was such a person behind in the line.
Top Gun was a fun movie for teenagers, of the "if you take this at all seriously it will collapse under its own weight" type.
Re:Be kind, please rewind (Score:4, Informative)
Millennials are people born from 1980-1995 (give or take.) The vast majority have experience of video tapes, even if DVD was becoming a thing in the late 1990s (though DVDs didn't really take off to the point VHS started to be considered obsolete until the start of the millennium.)
Maybe you're thinking of zoomers?
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It seems like a trivial problem to solve. Japanese taxis have had this for decades, a little button that opens and closes the door. Catches out many tourists.
Recursive self-driving taxi trap? (Score:2)
Basically my own reaction was along these lines, though I think the driver can see if the door is clear before closing it. On the one hand I can imagine trying to do something similar for Waymo, but I still feel like you need a human in the loop to prevent vandalism that keeps the door from closing...
So here's the joke idea: The vandal blocks the first car with its door open and then attacks each of the other cars that come to help. Massacre of the robotaxis?
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If only this could be solved with like a solenoid...
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If only this could be solved with like a solenoid...
It will in the future, per TFS:
Future Waymo vehicles will have automated door closures.
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Yeah, it's not quite the same, but I'd like to think humans are not so universally stupid that leaving car doors open when they walk out of them is a widespread problem (unlike un-rewoundVHS rentals).
$10 is too little. A couple $25 fines and that'll likely solve the problem for those unusual individuals, especially if Waymo transfers most of that to the DoorDash driver.
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Re: Be kind, please rewind (Score:2)
Hit the with the charge of calling out someone to close the door and they'll close the door themselves the next time.
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And closing doors isn't easy. Because there's a lot of things that can go wrong and you still can end up with a stuck car.
Basically, you can try to close the door, but then you have to handle the case where there's something holding it open. Elevators have
Appropriate Hitchhikers Guide Quote (Score:3)
Re:Be kind, please rewind (Score:5, Insightful)
The automotive industry solved this problem with self-closing doors. Waymo somehow didn't figure out that vehicles with this feature should be mandatory for a self-driving car service. This is stupidly obvious.
Re:Be kind, please rewind (Score:4, Insightful)
Waymo didn't make cars. You claim the "automotive industry" solved this problem yet Waymo bought their vehicles from said automotive industry. Also there's only a couple of cars with self closing doors. They are a reliability nightmare, doubly so in a taxi situation.
You're so quick to think you found a clever solution without considering that you created more problems.
The better way to do this would be to address the human element. Simply bill per minute the car is out of service because someone forgot to close the door. People will very quickly correct their behaviour and do so without creating unreliable mechanisms that only train people to leave doors open even more.
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The better way to do this would be to address the human element.
lol he thinks you can fix people
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No. I said you to address the human element, i.e. you need to put in place a system that reflects the fact that people can't be fixed by appealing to something that would cause humans to self regulate - draining their wallet.
Seriously did you read what I wrote at all?
Re: Be kind, please rewind (Score:2)
No, he's right.. you're trying to fix human behaviour by penalizing 'misbehaviour'.
What if it isn't misbehaviour but mistake? What if a family is late for their flight and a piece of luggage moves a door so it only appears shut? A normal human cabbie would just sigh and close the door. Your solution would drain the family credit card instead
Automatic door closers are the answer because that replicates what a real human would do to fix this problem. Until then, getting DoorDash drivers to fix the problem is
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Also there's only a couple of cars with self closing doors. They are a reliability nightmare, doubly so in a taxi situation.
I've never had a problem with a self-closing door on a car. Maybe there's a model that does have problems.
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Do you open and close your car door 60 times a day? Didn't think so. Your sample size is poor. Your equivalence is poor, and you also missed the point. If you have a system that teaches people that the car door closes themselves then any fault will not be rectified by a passenger which will leave your car stranded.
Having self closing doors is very different between an openly accessible continuous transit service, and whatever car you bought that you drive to work. Door mechanisms are a HUGE focus in reliabi
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"They are a reliability nightmare, doubly so in a taxi situation."
Automatic doors are ubiquitous for Japanese taxis.
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Awesome. This is the perfect solution.
we had this a few months back already (Score:3)
perhaps waymo remembers.
https://tech.slashdot.org/stor... [slashdot.org]
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they'll run out of those 25 dollar bills fast...
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Maybe Slashdot can hire a DoorDash driver to check for dupes.
As fun as this would be this story isn't a dupe. The partnership with Waymo and DoorDash was announced only today.
is forgetting really a thing? (Score:2)
i cannot for the life of me think back to a single instance where i forgot to shut the door to my car. are people actually forgetting or are they just being shitty?
i hope the passenger get a hefty surcharge.
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I'm really hoping it's a case of the door not closing completely - where it's held closed but the car's sensor still reports it as open.
But damn, Waymo. Why don't your cars have the ability to close its own doors, at the very least by human intervention from the warmth of an office after verifying the customer is long gone?
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They likely didn't anticipate it, and it's probably so rare that retrofitting every existing car isn't worth it.
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To me the question is how did they fail to anticipate it?
This reminds me of the software I use to do my work, where the devs have literally zero people who have ever done my job on staff, so they have only a vague third-hand clue what the software should actually do. They literally designed it initially to assume that everything was being done on time, and it malfunctioned when it wasn't.
Does Waymo have literally zero taxi drivers on staff, or at least on retainer as a consultant? Because any of them could
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It must be very rare. Waymo has been operating fully autonomous since 2019 and prior to that in test mode with human drivers for years. The first I ever heard of this issue was some months ago. Maybe they did anticipate it, but figured it was so rare that it wasn't worth the extra capital expenditure per car. I'm speculating of course. But logic dictates they would have been aware of this issue since at least 2020 if not earlier.
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The first I ever heard of this issue was some months ago.
It's so rare, even though they're not publicizing it you heard about it months ago, and now you're hearing about it again? That's not how those words work.
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I see an article mentioning 450k rides per week for Waymo. Something which happens once a day is quite rare but also common. Large numbers are weird that way, and it's good evidence that beyond a thousand or so, people are bad at truly understanding large numbers.
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"I'm really hoping it's a case of the door not closing completely - where it's held closed but the car's sensor still reports it as open."
Very likely, my truck does that. The rear door is closed but not hard enough to satisfy the computer. Even worse the rear door is held shut by the front door which is latched so it couldn't open anyway.
So a slightly out of adjustment sensor combined with full hands while getting out results in not enough oomph into shutting the door to fully latch it to the computer's sat
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I'm really hoping it's a case of the door not closing completely - where it's held closed but the car's sensor still reports it as open.
That's a good suggestion.
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One thing is it's not their belonging, it makes a very big difference. Also it's in appearance fully automated. This primes people's minds to assume will take care for itself. Also it's used like public transport. You just get in and out of the metro, you don't pay attention to closing the door. I take it as honest mistake in the context of apparently fully automated public transport system.
Easy fix (Score:2)
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As I understand it, this happens so rarely that even spending $500 on retro-fitting every car isn't justified.
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My guess: the cost of holding up traffic even once, in goodwill if nothing else, makes it worth the cost of the $500 retrofit.
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That's an easy fix, for new waymo cars. Next round of cars need to have autoshut doors and auto retracting seatbelts. So best would be to have cars with sliding doors. Or retrofit current cars with motors to close the doors.
An easy stop-gap measure would be for the car to tell passengers to "please close the door fully when you leave the vehicle". I bet that simple voice message would eliminate the vast majority of left-open doors.
The message could even be anticipated and reinforced by a reminder showing up in the app when the ride is booked.
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That's an easy fix, for new waymo cars. Next round of cars need to have autoshut doors and auto retracting seatbelts. So best would be to have cars with sliding doors. Or retrofit current cars with motors to close the doors.
An easy stop-gap measure would be for the car to tell passengers to "please close the door fully when you leave the vehicle". I bet that simple voice message would eliminate the vast majority of left-open doors.
Then if the door doesn't close within thirty seconds, send a notification on their phone saying that they have three minutes to close the door or they will be charged a $20 fee for someone to come close it. That simple notification will eliminate the rest, or at least would make sure nobody did it twice.
Re: Easy fix (Score:2)
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Can't wait for the opportunistic lawsuits "the soulless self-driving car closed the door on my arm! Gimme a $billion!" Sometimes the easy fixes are less easy than you think!
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Can't wait for the opportunistic lawsuits "the soulless self-driving car closed the door on my arm! Gimme a $billion!" Sometimes the easy fixes are less easy than you think!
You know how many cameras these things have? I think they can probably safely make sure nobody's arm is in the door now. And if not, they could add interior cameras on the door itself using the same wiring harness they would have to add for the door closers anyway.
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Hmmm... (Score:4, Funny)
1. Become DoorDash driver, and follow Waymos when you see them
2. Tell them to leave a door open (not ??????)
ÂÂ. Split the profits!
Sounds like good engineering (Score:2)
Not everything needs to get a clean solution. One that works is often enough, especially when temporary.
I like this approach. It has a certain messy elegance.
You see there are plenty of jobs! (Score:2)
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there is always opportunity for more hierarchy
portable water guys -> service water guys -> drain and grey water guys -> sewage/waste water guys.
What could go wrong (Score:2)
Future Waymo vehicles will have automated door closures.
Given Waymo's excellent record at avoiding problems I'm sure that will be trouble free.
Ironic much ?! (Score:2)
So a human drive a car to an autonomous car to close its door.
What is the point of autonomous driving really ?
You can make a car move autonomously but you cannot swing a door automatically, really ?
Automated door closing? (Score:2)
"Accidentally" (Score:2)
The subject is the message.
Good luck (Score:1)
We can't get people to put the grocery park back in the corral
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We can't get people to put the grocery park back in the corral
We can't get grocery stores to put the corrals in intelligent locations.
Around half of [informally counted] grocery store workers I've seen weigh in on this say that rounding up the carts is the best part of their work day, and zero of the people I've seen raise this complaint have ever actually rounded up a single solitary cart as part of their employment.
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No one will punish you for not returning the shopping cart, no one will fine you or kill you for not returning the shopping cart, you gain nothing by returning the shopping cart -anon
Anon never shopped at Aldi or one of the other stores that makes you pay a deposit for a shopping cart.
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Excellent grasshopper. Now, you understand money, taxes and government.
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We can For $6.25 +$5.00.
Heck, for that, I'd venture a guess that gangs will descent upon stores. Rolling carts out and then having an accomplice collect the return fee.
Why didn't Waymo tack an extra $11.25 fee onto the rider's bill for not closing the fucking door?
Out of the box solution? (Score:2)
Make autonomous cars without doors? /s
automation (Score:2)
IIRC, Tokyo taxicabs have long had automatic door closers under the control of the driver. Waymo should consider using automation.
this future is stupid (Score:2)
Self driving cars but no self shutting doors. I'm pretty sure I saw shelf shutting doors at the grocery store in the 70's.
lmao. product people. (Score:2)
Why pay? do a maneuver (Score:1)
Why not just SMS the rider? (Score:3)
Why not just send a text to the client who just had the Waymo ride, 10 seconds after the door opens and stays open, saying, "don't forget to close the door!"
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Why not just notify the rider? (Score:2)
Power doors are a thing. (Score:2)
So is discovering the bleeding obvious and how hard it is to automate when you try to automate just about anything that has half an ounce of human judgment attached to it.
I once wrote a hundred-plus page memo about the logic design in a plc program to operate five (count em!) five single-axis motion control servos in concert.
Cars have more than five moving parts.
''Accidentally'' (Score:2)
Self-driving cars (Score:2)
...but unable to build a self-closing door?
So the pro labor angle is (Score:2)