Does a Gas-Guzzler Revival Risk Dead-End Futures for US Automakers? (thedailynewsonline.com) 384
If U.S. automakers turn their backs on electric vehicles, "their sales outside the U.S. will shrivel," warns Bloomberg. [Alternate URL.]
They're already falling behind on the technology, relying on a 100% U.S. tariff on Chinese EVs to keep surging rivals like BYD Co. at bay.... While the American automakers "mostly understand the challenge in front of them, they don't have full plans" to confront it [said Mark Wakefield, head of the global automotive practice at consultant AlixPartners]...
"Now is a great time for the V-8 engine," said Ryan Shaughnessy, the Mustang's brand manager. "We've done extensive customer research in multiple cities, looking at a variety of powertrains, and the V-8 is always the number-one choice." It isn't just customers. U.S. automakers have long been run by "car guys:" enthusiasts who live for the bone-shaking rumble of a big engine. For them, quiet and smooth EVs — even the absurdly fast ones — can't satisfy that craving. They're convinced many American car buyers share the same enthusiasm for what Shaughnessy described as "the sound and roar of the V-8."
Wall Street couldn't be happier with the new direction... Ford's fortunes are also on the rise, as it's predicting operating profits could grow by as much as 47% this year to $10 billion. Ford's stock has risen nearly 50% over the last 12 months. Under the previous environmental rules, automakers effectively had to sell zero-emission vehicles in growing numbers to offset their gas-guzzlers. When they fell short, they had to buy regulatory credits from EV companies such as Tesla Inc. or face penalties. GM spent $3.5 billion on credits from 2022 to the middle of 2025. Now, according to JPMorgan Chase & Co. analyst Ryan Brinkman, GM and Ford each have "billion dollar tailwinds"...
[T]he hangover from all that new horsepower could leave US automakers lagging their Chinese rivals who already build the world's most advanced — and lowest priced — electric cars. Indeed, there is much talk in Detroit about the competitive tsunami that will be unleashed on American automakers once Chinese car companies find a way to break through trade barriers now protecting the US market. [Ford Chief Executive Officer Jim] Farley even calls it an "existential threat"... "They're going to build as many V-8 engines and big trucks as they can get out the factory doors," said Sam Fiorani, vice president of vehicle forecasting for consultant Auto Forecast Solutions. "And as the rest of the world develops modern drivetrains, newer batteries and better electric vehicles, GM and Ford in particular are going to find themselves falling even further behind."
The article notes GM "continues to develop battery-powered vehicles, and CEO Mary Barra said the automaker would begin offering a 'handful' of hybrids soon," while Ford and Stellantis "have plans to launch extended-range electric vehicles, or EREVs, a new kind of plug-in hybrid with an internal combustion engine that recharges the battery as the vehicle drives down the road." But while automakers may be investing in future EV vehicles, they're also "leaning into the lucre that comes from selling millions of fossil-fuel vehicles in a rare moment of loosened regulation."
"Now is a great time for the V-8 engine," said Ryan Shaughnessy, the Mustang's brand manager. "We've done extensive customer research in multiple cities, looking at a variety of powertrains, and the V-8 is always the number-one choice." It isn't just customers. U.S. automakers have long been run by "car guys:" enthusiasts who live for the bone-shaking rumble of a big engine. For them, quiet and smooth EVs — even the absurdly fast ones — can't satisfy that craving. They're convinced many American car buyers share the same enthusiasm for what Shaughnessy described as "the sound and roar of the V-8."
Wall Street couldn't be happier with the new direction... Ford's fortunes are also on the rise, as it's predicting operating profits could grow by as much as 47% this year to $10 billion. Ford's stock has risen nearly 50% over the last 12 months. Under the previous environmental rules, automakers effectively had to sell zero-emission vehicles in growing numbers to offset their gas-guzzlers. When they fell short, they had to buy regulatory credits from EV companies such as Tesla Inc. or face penalties. GM spent $3.5 billion on credits from 2022 to the middle of 2025. Now, according to JPMorgan Chase & Co. analyst Ryan Brinkman, GM and Ford each have "billion dollar tailwinds"...
[T]he hangover from all that new horsepower could leave US automakers lagging their Chinese rivals who already build the world's most advanced — and lowest priced — electric cars. Indeed, there is much talk in Detroit about the competitive tsunami that will be unleashed on American automakers once Chinese car companies find a way to break through trade barriers now protecting the US market. [Ford Chief Executive Officer Jim] Farley even calls it an "existential threat"... "They're going to build as many V-8 engines and big trucks as they can get out the factory doors," said Sam Fiorani, vice president of vehicle forecasting for consultant Auto Forecast Solutions. "And as the rest of the world develops modern drivetrains, newer batteries and better electric vehicles, GM and Ford in particular are going to find themselves falling even further behind."
The article notes GM "continues to develop battery-powered vehicles, and CEO Mary Barra said the automaker would begin offering a 'handful' of hybrids soon," while Ford and Stellantis "have plans to launch extended-range electric vehicles, or EREVs, a new kind of plug-in hybrid with an internal combustion engine that recharges the battery as the vehicle drives down the road." But while automakers may be investing in future EV vehicles, they're also "leaning into the lucre that comes from selling millions of fossil-fuel vehicles in a rare moment of loosened regulation."
Gas guzzling V8s don't seem like a good idea (Score:5, Insightful)
With a long term conflict in the Persian Gulf just started.'
Re:Gas guzzling V8s don't seem like a good idea (Score:5, Interesting)
Nah the US has plenty of oil and gas to keep the coal rolling. And the conflict in the gulf just raises prices making everyone richer, right?. What's not to like. More money for the 1%. Keep those subsidies flowing to the oil companies.
That said, I've always been uncomfortable with the various government schemes to promote/force EVs. I think I'm much more in favor of removing oil subsidies (in whatever form they actually are), and let the market move on its own. However I recognize that the "free" market hasn't really existed for some years, so maybe that's a silly thought.
Re:Gas guzzling V8s don't seem like a good idea (Score:5, Insightful)
the guys that get richer are in the top, everyone below will be poorer!
they are the ones that get better margins and increase their profits, for everyone else, it is just more expense in everything and causing a chain of price increases in everything that used oil...
the other guys getting richer are the EV car manufactures, that while more expensive, can get much cheaper per mile than oil cars, paying themselfs quickly
Re:Gas guzzling V8s don't seem like a good idea (Score:5, Interesting)
"...and let the market move on its own."
Government subsidies exist for when this doesn't happen, at least not fast enough. You have subsidies to promote new markets in the interests of the people, BEVs are a perfect example.
"However I recognize that the "free" market hasn't really existed for some years, so maybe that's a silly thought."
It's a silly thought that this is a free market issue. The interests of society are not always satisfied by free markets, not that we have them.
It is cheaper to buy the government, make the rules and steal the wealth than it is to compete for it with merit. That's where we are now, this isn't a BEV issue but a MAGA identify politics issue. No one wants V8's, they just want a car they can afford to buy and operate, hopefully that doesn't destroy the planet in the process. The V8 is just a BS narrative to justify terrible politics, it will disappear as rapidly as it was resurrected. The people can no longer afford to buy homes and new cars, so who is it demanding V8s?
Re: Gas guzzling V8s don't seem like a good idea (Score:5, Insightful)
Another option would be to tax emissions, given what they cost in mitigation. All that research on how to reduce global warming needs financing, and it only exists because we've manufactured the problem with all these emissions.
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Exactly. Let polluters pay for their fuck-you-I-love-emissions attitudes.
Re: Gas guzzling V8s don't seem like a good idea (Score:4, Interesting)
A carbon tax is the market method to stop the biggest fossil fuel subsidies: public funding for cleaning up the externalities. But it's got the word "tax" in it, so not doing it makes a great campaign slogan.
Nope, still a problem. (Score:4, Insightful)
The problem isn't that we'll run out of oil or gas in this country. The problem is that both are internationally traded commodities and this war is looking like it is having a dramatic effect on prices which will effect Americans at the pump.
I do wonder if this will make a meaningful dent in gas guzzler ownership like last time this happened (although unfortunately last time those change in ownership patterns didn't stick)
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EVs imported get a 100% tariff. Two uncompleted parts of a car (two parts that are officially "not a car"), that require an American to screw them together, can easily be imported without the 100% tariff nonsense.
Re:Gas guzzling V8s don't seem like a good idea (Score:5, Interesting)
We've done extensive customer research in multiple cities, looking at a variety of powertrains, and the V-8 is always the number-one choice."
plus
Wall Street couldn't be happier with the new direction... Ford's fortunes are also on the rise, as it's predicting operating profits could grow by as much as 47% this year to $10 billion.
What Detroit seems to be saying is that their market research shows that people who are dumb enough to be climate change deniers are the same people who are dumb enough to prefer driving ICE over EV, and are the same people who are dumb enough to happy when they are ripped off for massive profit margins when they buy a car.
And so there seems to be a short term business opportunity there.
I'm never going back to ICE from EV, but I guess I'm old enough and grumpy enough to enjoy watching fossil fools get ripped off.
It's a pity the current govt is killing so many foreign civilians in forever wars to try and keep gas prices down though.
Re:Gas guzzling V8s don't seem like a good idea (Score:5, Informative)
What are you talking about? Do you have any idea what the carbon emissions of fossil fuel extraction and refining are? Do you think the sludge that comes out of the ground goes right into a gas tank? I have 2 EVs, and our home is powered from a nuclear plant. I can absolutely guarantee that my pollution footprint is a tiny fraction of yours. I'll make you a deal: we'll both step into our respective garages, close the doors and seal them, put the cars on lifts, and run them at a leisurely 35MPH for 6 hours. I think you'll find your garage environment will be heavenly, while mine will be more earthly.
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I'll make you a deal: we'll both step into our respective garages
Well, you will need to provide a garage if you want to do that test as I do not have a garage. Perhaps that is why I do not want an electric vehicle?
Re: Gas guzzling V8s don't seem like a good idea (Score:3)
I like my EV. 50 weeks of the year I have no concerns with range, charge at my house and pay roughly 30% per mile of what a regular ICE vehicle owner would pay.
I can also admit the technology isn't there for EVs to be good in all scenarios. That's why our 2nd vehicle is a hybrid. 50mpg with no worry about range anxiety is great!
Re:Gas guzzling V8s don't seem like a good idea (Score:5, Insightful)
Of all the idiotic criticisms I've seen of EVs over the years, claiming that lithium is shortlived has got to be close to the top. Lithium is a metal. Once it's out of the ground and in concentrated form, it can be recycled indefinitely. A kilo of lithium in a car battery today will still be in use *centuries* from now, just like gold, steel, silver, etc.
Re:Gas guzzling V8s don't seem like a good idea (Score:5, Insightful)
Lithium extraction in Chile (about a quarter of annual global production) certainly has problems with water usage, but nearly half of the world's lithium production comes from Australia. If you'd like some examples of environmental damage from fossil fuel extraction, I could go on all day, but here are a few random examples: the Niger Delta, Caspian Sea, Columbia's Magdalena River etc. etc. etc. taken as a whole they make ground water usage in Chile look like a rounding error.
Re:Gas guzzling V8s don't seem like a good idea (Score:5, Insightful)
The vast, vast majority of Americans don't live in "remote areas". They live in towns with infrastructure, and don't drive long distances except for the occasional road trip (a rarer thing these days). While the typical American daily travel experience is a longer distance than in the rest of the world, this is by virtue of car-centric infrastructure, with more people in other developed countries walking or taking public transit, but among people who *do drive* in other countries, it's not a huge difference in terms of how far people drive in a typical journey.
In terms of cold temperatures, the performance differences are vastly overstated by ICE apologists. The country with the highest EV adoption in the world is Norway, a country not exactly known for its mild winters, particularly on the coastline facing the Atlantic. I've lived in a cold climate myself and know the experience well of spending much of the year with my gasoline-powered vehicle's auxiliary heater plugged into an electric socket just to keep the vehicle from freezing, but for some reason that constant energy use was never figured into the calculations. With batteries, you know your range will go down a bit, though that is being mitigated somewhat with newer battery chemistries, and you figure that into the range of the battery capacity when you buy the vehicle.
Resale value is the only point I'll concede, but that's really more a factor of how fast the tech has been developing vs the very mature ICE technology. The exact same thing happened with early gasoline automobiles. As the tech matures you'll see the market for used EVs stabilize, and this is already happening somewhat.
An EV from ten years ago is now very usable on its old battery pack. When you buy an ICE vehicle, you look at the odometer and if it has a lot of miles on it you figure the reduced reliability into the price you're willing to pay. EVs have far more mechanical reliability, so you're more figuring in the functional range on the battery pack in the price you're willing to pay rather than the remaining lifetime on the engine.
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Resale values are very interesting. The global market for used EVs in the 2030s is going to be dominated by 300+ mile LFP cars from 2025 onwards, when EV sales really took off. Those cars will have run shallow cycles mostly, so they are going to be very durable assets, and their values will be substantially higher than equivalent-aged ICE models are today. That will likely depress some demand for new cars.
Re:Gas guzzling V8s don't seem like a good idea (Score:5, Interesting)
Our 6 year old EV (Kia eNiro) is just about to tick past 100,000 miles travelled. It still does 275 miles on a single charge (more if you drive carefully) and the BMS still reports 100% battery state of health. I bought it when it was a little over 4 years old, and it has depreciated by about £1500 (USD $2000) since then.
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"The vast, vast majority of Americans don't live in "remote areas". They live in towns with infrastructure, "
This town of 12,000 has a gas station within walking distance of the house, and a fast 24 hour charger a 35 mile drive away. I fortunately have a garage and could charge at home. But then here's the weird places I drive to that are also in the boonies and a problem for finding charging.
There are 2 solutions.
One is the touted solid state battery that results in a 700 - 900 mile range. Then we don'
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The thing is, a high speed charger in the middle of nowhere is going to have to be more expensive than gas to pay off considering they will have to run the infrastructure y to get that much power there.
I wonder just how hard a thing this charger thing is. In Pennsylvania, they have EV chargers in State Parks and State forests. https://www.pa.gov/agencies/dc... [pa.gov]
Some of them are in seriously remote places like Cherry Springs. Black Moshannon is wildernessy as well. All you need is nearby power lines.
Those people that hate EV's are running out of goalposts to move.
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> The thing is, a high speed charger in the middle of nowhere is going to have to be more expensive than gas to pay off considering they will have to run the infrastructure y to get that much power there.
The infrastructure is there already.
How do you think a gas station in the middle of nowhere runs the gas pumps? You think that gasoline just spontaneously goes into the cars? How do you think those gas stations have lighting at night or power modern cash registers and credit card machines and refrigerato
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Have saved hugely by doing this.
Re: Gas guzzling V8s don't seem like a good idea (Score:4, Insightful)
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That's true for diesels and old carberated vehicles, not fuel injected so it is less common now. And yes, plugging in sucks so why would I want a car that requires me to do it all the time? At least with a block heater you can string multiple vehicles on one regular cord.
You are kind of just embarrassing yourself at this point. Your "just so" excuses are entertaining though, so keep it up!
Re:Gas guzzling V8s don't seem like a good idea (Score:5, Insightful)
The majority of Americans are urban or suburban and drive 35 miles per day. Big trucks are popular for a variety of deeply silly reasons, but the vast majority of people just aren't hauling stuff or driving off road. There's a lot of weekend trucker cosplay on slashdot, but the numbers just don't bear it out.
And the funny thing is of course that giant trucks don't even make particularly good work vehicles outside of some very narrow usecsaes.
Re: Gas guzzling V8s don't seem like a good idea (Score:2)
You do not have a clue about driving an EV daily. It is a car with a good range. If you live in a remote location - which most people don't - you have the space to charge your car at home. If you can charge your car at home for most distances you are not going to need another charger in daily life. And if you do travel that far, there will be fast chargers.
In cold weather they work just fine, bit less range but still plenty.
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All good points, but it should also be understood that fewer and fewer people can afford homes and the population is increasingly transitioning to lives where "charging at home" is not viable. That is a huge problem for EV adoption and an issue to exploit for MAGA. BEV is a great solution for the majority but it does require some changes to lifestyle and investment in infrastructure. There is an all-out war to prevent that investment.
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Lithium is *mined* in Chile and Australia more than China, iron ore and phosphate is found everywhere, and so is sodium. China’s moat is industrial and systemic, and the US could have caught up if it had wanted to, but instead it has farted around chasing the nostalgia of bitter old men.
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As they did with solar panels, windmills and batteries they will do now with cars.
Re:Gas guzzling V8s don't seem like a good idea (Score:5, Insightful)
Nevermind how bad they are for the environment vs gas powered vehicles.
There's a lot of things I pine for from the early 2010s. Stable sensible government. Non-enshittified streaming services. Windows 7. But your well and truly repeatedly debunked anti-EV bullshit is not one of those things.
At this point there's no point in even countering what you said given 15 years of debunking history all conclusively shows the worst case for EVs is better than the best case for gasoline vehicles. At this point all that's left is for me to call you either a stupid moron, or a paid gasoline shill. I'll let you choose which you are.
EREVs are not new (Score:4, Interesting)
The BMW i3 was released in 2014.
EREVs are only new to GM.
I had a GM Volt PHEV for 10 years. It was great. But this timeline belongs to EVs.
Gas engines are unnecessary compromises nowadays for passenger cars.
Re: EREVs are not new (Score:2)
Says the guy living in detached single family housing, presumably. For those of us trying to live into more land efficient development, there ainâ(TM)t the charging infrastructure for us. Which would be fine, if there was decent public transit.
Re: EREVs are not new (Score:3)
You got me. But i see plenty of largely unused DC fast chargers in many parking lots. These are totally adequate to charge once a week if you drive an average number of miles, such as for commutting or normal errands. Issues may only arise on long road trips on the busiest days of the year. You won't catch me doing that the day before Thanksgiving in any car again, ICE or EV. Actually I find flights to Asia rather cheap and empty during that time of the year, so that's where i usually end up.
I would love to
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"Actually I find flights to Asia rather cheap and empty during that time of the year, so that's where i usually end up."
So clearly your conversion to EVs isn't for enviromental reasons then. Any flight is equivalent to each passenger driving a small car the same distance in CO2 output.
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That's a chicken and egg problem, and you know it. There was a time when you were the guy with the horse, and he was the guy who lived near a place that sold gasoline.
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Says the guy living in detached single family housing, presumably.
Half of the anti-EV Americans claim America isn't dense enough and the other half claim it's too dense for EVs. It can't be both.
Which would be fine, if there was decent public transit.
That's a different but also big problem.
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...
Unless you don't have a garage on hour house, live in a house built before 1980, or live in an apartment. Then you're SOL. There's no infrastructure for you to have an EV.
And then about only half of houses have the necessary wiring for charging EVs (240V 20A or better). And, it's in their laundry room. So for half the population that rents? Out of luck without running an extension cord out your door.
EVs basically restrict a person to the superchargers or being rich enough to own a house made recently. So, boomers.
Hold on. i'm with you on the apartment part, but not on the older houses part. Installing a charger / running another circuit is 200A service and panel upgrade is $5k - $10k in expensive places. less in cheaper places. And it maybe sets you up to be ready to throw in an electric (induction, hopefully) stove and enough juice for a heat-pump too.
Yeah it's real money, but we're not talking astronomical prices here... compared to what houses and cars cost.
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ugh. /. ate some of that because i used a less-than and a greater than w/o thinking.
"installing a charger / running another 240V 40A circuit is like less than $2k. .... " is how it's supposed to go.
upgrading from 100A service/panel to 200A service is $5k -$10k
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Here in Europe we have 1X35 amps 230V or 3X25 amps 230V to our homes.
Plenty of juice to charge EV's
I certainly will not buy an American car (Score:5, Insightful)
If American car makers won't make cheap, small, fuel-efficient cars, then I'm not interested. I'll happily buy Japanese or Korean instead.
Currently drive a great tiny little Honda Fit stick-shift and I love it... but it's a 2015 model and it won't last forever.
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BYD is going to mop the floor with these chuckleheads in Detroit.
Re:I certainly will not buy an American car (Score:4, Insightful)
I hope so. There's nothing like competition to concentrate the minds of chuckleheads and make them improve their innovation.
Re: I certainly will not buy an American car (Score:2)
I fear the same thing may happen to these automakers as iRobot. They rested ok their laurels, and got obliterated afrer they failed to improve for too long.
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So be it, then. If they can't compete, they don't deserve to survive. Capitalism works that way, or at least it's supposed to.
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The joke is that capitalism is being controlled by a communist country, because short term profit is more important for the USA
Re: I certainly will not buy an American car (Score:2)
Short term profit, with the added side effect of continuing to damage the climate.
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Japanese and Korean could be next on the ban list, after Chinese.
Heavily contingent on which auto companies manage to outbid the others for a regulatory favor.
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I don't live in the USA, so I think I'll still be able to source Japanese or Korean cars.
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I feel like a lot of people commenting on this story have missed that a significant part of it is about American exports.
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The profits from a single overpriced SUV that's really just a pickup truck with seats in the back is several times more than the little Honda fit you drive. Never mind the fact that you haven't bought a car in 11 years...
Re: I certainly will not buy an American car (Score:2)
Well, my Equinox EV compact SUV was $27.5k out the door in August before the tax credit expired. That replaced my Volt at 10 years 1 month. Would cost $35k without the tax credit, if the idiots didn't reduce production.
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It's getting harder to find small cars, but it's still possible. And since I tend to buy second-hand cars that are 3-5 years old, that will improve my chances.
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That's primarily due to EPA safety and fuel mileage standards,.
You realize American cars have gotten markedly smaller, right?
Re: I certainly will not buy an American car (Score:2)
You realise youâ(TM)re talking to a Canadian, not a Yank?
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https://theonion.com/conscient... [theonion.com]
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It's getting harder to find small cars, but it's still possible. And since I tend to buy second-hand cars that are 3-5 years old, that will improve my chances.
For a stick shift? it's getting super lean out there. there's nothing equivalent to the Fit. (hit autotempest.com and search for manuals like 2023 MY and newer). Closest would be maybe a Subaru Crosstrek (which offered manual until ~2024) and some rare Mazda3s ... some low spec Jettas (would NOT own an older VW). Maybe a Civic Si.... (both considerably more expensive and larger than Fit)
There's also the Corolla GR ... (300HP AWD track beast).. even more expensive, but not much larger
if th
A Poor Business Model (Score:2)
The number of American men with small penises who will buy these gas guzzlers isn't enough to support the automobile industry.
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no, i think it is really huge market, seeing how most act and think, following a orange president with small ... hands... sure they want to compensate for something
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Well it's worked out pretty well up until now if we're honest. The "big three" US automakers pretty much abandoned the affordable car market a decade ago and focus exclusively on luxury vehicles for the upper middle class. And that's served them quite well, making money hand over fist. The government EV mandate forced them to spend money on essentially affordable cars (and EVs) which has really hurt them because they can't and don't want to compete for that market in the first place.
Yes, all except Tesla are toast (Score:3)
BYD and a few similar Chinese companies are going to eat them for lunch, or force them to just relabel Chinese cars as theirs, as Volkswagen, Volvo, Nissan, Honda, Toyota, and Mazda are doing.
Picked the wrong time to stop rapidly innovating their EV technology. Oops.
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Tesla is the worst, most incompetent car company on the planet, so much so that they claim they aren't even a car company. Tesla is a vehicle for committing fraud and grabbing government subsidies. Just like every other Musk business.
Their death is ensured, only the schedule is in question. Tesla cannot compete in an industry that requires execution, they have none and cannot develop any.
V-8? Really? (Score:4, Insightful)
Now is a great time for the V-8 engine
This is like watching that section of airplane disaster re-enactment videos where the pilots are confidently flying straight into a mountain. The next section is the sound of GPWS desperately screaming "Pull-Up! Pull-Up!" just before the crash.
The rest of the world is rapidly shifting to EVs, and the US automakers are building a bigger Canyonero. Now with more dead dinosaur exhaust! And we're supposed to be calmed down by the fact that they're bringing an overpriced shitty EV pickup truck in 2 years?
In 20 years, the second Trump's presidency will be seen as the final straw that killed the US economy. Just an example, a company that was trying to make sodium-ion batteries in the US went bankrupt this summer. They had product sitting in their warehouses but were unable to ship it to customers before getting a UL certification. And they couldn't get a bridge loan from the government or investors. The end result: a company destroyed. I'm pretty sure we'll find competing interests in play there.
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"The rest of the world is rapidly shifting to EVs"
Actually its not. The push to EVs is being pushed back against in europe and it looks like the EV only mandated year will be changed. Only Norway has gone full EV so far. As for south american, africa, most of asia except china and australia - forget it, they're happy with ICEs for the forseable.
Services, Light industry and consumer products (Score:2)
gas guzzlers have a murky future (Score:4, Insightful)
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Given the war in the middle east now, I think a lot of V8 drivers are going to be having a lot of regret shortly
Could be good for domestic producers but I don't think it will last long.
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We have oil from south america now, we'll be alright. But just as a precaution, I'm buying a 250 gallon tank tomorrow which I'm filling up.
V8? In a city? (Score:3)
A V8 in a city is strictly for racing. It's got too much power for most purposes. The one place it does have a use, trucks or vans for carrying heavy commercial/industrial loads, isn't a huge market compared to personal use. Big pickup trucks look and sound impressive, until you need to find a parking spot for them. Or deal with rough streets. Or tight residential streets. Or stop-and-go traffic. Then practicality wins out.
I look at the US auto industry today and see it repeating the strategy of the early 70s. We know how that ended. The same motivations are at work now. Their focus groups may say "big and powerful", but consumer wallets say "small and economical".
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I drive a V8 in the city all the time, I don't understand what you're going on about. I have adaptive cruise control and stop n go traffic doesn't bother me one bit. Parking is annoying in the city with any vehicle, that's why there are private parking garages.
Repeat (Score:3)
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As long as I can get a reasonably priced car after my current car bites the dust... hope it lasts a while.
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US OEMs are going to struggle on every level (Score:4, Insightful)
It's not just that they will find it impossible to compete internationally, where Chinese, Korean, European and to some extent Japanese OEMs have all shifted towards EVs (despite the noise about various OEMs pulling back from EV-only strategies, it's clear that EVs are an increasingly large share of the new model mix across the board).
It's also that they are cutting themselves off from economies of scale from global supply chains. This is both due to the tariffs, and also the fact that they are going to be reliant on parts that are being made in ever-shrinking volumes in the future, and at some point that will lead to supplier exists and "last man standing" pricing, driven in part by fixed costs per unit rising as tooling, casting etc gets spread over a smaller volume base, and in part by a shift in pricing power from OEMs to those last few suppliers. Camshafts, crankshafts, timing chains, fuel injectors, mass airflow sensors, catalytic converters, etc, will all become markedly more expensive. That is going to squeeze profitability even with protectionist barriers in place.
I've said it before: the US is on track to be this place where people drive outdated overpriced cars that feels like stepping back in time when the rest of us see videoclips (because really, who's visiting now? I just made excuses for a work trip, and I'm not the only one). A bit like Cuba, except the cars being kept on the road in the US will be giant ugly SUVs and pickup trucks, not nice looking relics from the 1950s. Maybe the true comparator is Russia, where the average non-rich person with a car drives a horrible old shitmobile that no-one in the developed world would ever willingly buy.
It is astonishing and depressing to see the US so comprehensively fuck itself over the past decade, and give up its place as *the* source of technological innovation on the planet.
Root Cause of V-8 attitude. (Score:2)
”Now is a great time for the V-8 engine,"
This note is to Ford Ignorance who can’t man a maintenance bay with a mechanic. The ONLY reason the V-8 is “great” again, is because of all the overly complex and utterly unreliable bullshit you offer as alternatives under the hood. People want the simplicity of the V-8 because the actual engine is what is naturally creating the solution instead of some twin turbo supercharged hybrid dogshit version of a power plant that practically takes a psychiatrist to understand how and why engines
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V8 Engines (Score:5, Interesting)
Ryan Shaughnessy, the Mustang's brand manager
This guy is LITERALLY the cheerleader and promotor of the Mustang, which is tied very specifically to the V8 engine. So this statement really means absolutely nothing in the scheme of things, even within Ford.
I have an F-150 for towing our camper. It has the most powerful engine available for the truck, giving me the highest tow capacity. It is NOT the V8 engine! But the V6 twin-turbo engine. Amazing engine, gives me 20 mpg with just the truck (which is impressive being a full-size bed and super-crew cab), and with twin turbo it accelerates extremely fast as well.
Point is, even those wanting maximum power aren't going with Ford's V8. Even the Ford Raptor trucks, which are all about speed and power, use the V6.
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Without a stick shift, what's the point? Put your foot down and wait for the gearing to spin up. There's always a lag.
Why bother with all that horsepower if you're relying on a computer to give you permission to do something?
Buy the right car and the right mods and you can have full control of all those computers.
Re:Meh (Score:5, Informative)
Perhaps you should try racing off the green light with an EV. You'll be surprised. Even the smallest EVs (at least the ones available in north America) will out-accelerate your stick shift v-8 sports car. And recoup 90% of the energy at the next red light. There's no real lag in actuality. It's mostly an illusion from continuous, compounding acceleration. Human perception is interesting. It's obviously completely unnecessary and wasteful to need 1000 hp in a regular car, but people seem to like it (even if their tires don't).
Re: Meh (Score:5, Insightful)
There's no inherent property of EVs that prevent them from having good suspension and handling. In fact, if anything, it's the other way around: being able to distribute the weight however you like instead of one solid engine block would enable you to make better handling cars.
The bad handling is an American feature, not an EV one. You're getting it with American combustion engine cars, too.
Re:Meh (Score:5, Informative)
EVs have a very low centre of gravity, hence they have a rather good handling, especially in difficult conditions like snow.
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Cornering in an EV is multiple times better then with an ICE car. They have about 0 motivation to roll over, no matter how fast you go. As long as the tires have grip, you can corner.
And nothing beats instant power response at the moment you press the pedal. Only sport cars like Ferrari's get close.
Re:Meh (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:Meh (Score:5, Insightful)
They have been ever since the dual clutch transmission was invented, but that rather misses the point. Shifting gears yourself is fun (ok, maybe not in nose to tail traffic but on the open road...) and makes you feel more involved in the driving process. Its not for everyone but some of us like it.
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For a small price premium I can mod the cockpit of your EV so that you can still stick shift. As a slightly higher cost option I'll even connect it to the onboard computer so that it does something.
Re: rumble (Score:2)
The quote is from the Mustang brand manager, keep in mind. That has a relatively small market share of even US vehicles. And infinitesimal abroad. EVs are superior. Mustang V8 are doomed.
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I have absolutely no doubt that, when talking about people who want to buy a Ford Mustang (non-EV version), his statement about most of them wanting the V-8 engine is correct.
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Mentally they are 12 at best.
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quoting from a previous comment:
"The number of American men with small penises who will buy these gas guzzlers isn't enough to support the automobile industry."
normal people want to go from A to B in a cheap and efficient way, if your intent is something else, go back one line
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I'm not sure who these normal people are because the US market is dominated by large, expensive, luxury SUVs and they sell really, really well.
I'm sure there are people who just want to go from A to B in a cheap and efficient way, but the market doesn't believe they matter (nor does the government).
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heh heh heh. You're right that this list isn't literally "luxury SUVs", which is what the prev poster claimed, but....
they're not cheap transportation from A to B either.
1,2,4,6 are the full-size pickups which are about the same price as luxury SUVs... they can start lower, but very easily get near $100k in the higher trim levels. And none of these are "efficient" in any common understanding of that term.
and everything else on there is $30k+ afaict (and many easily into the $50s before tax). And
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Have you ever felt joy from flinging a car around a corner, or the rumble of a v8 or above? I didn't understand it until I learned to race mx5's at road atlanta 18 years ago. It's not for everybody but for those that experience the glory, there's nothing that can live up to it.
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This is such an obviously wrong way for large OEMs to analyse the future of their domestic market, though. The % of people who buy cars for the reasons you describe is vastly outweighed by the number who buy cars to meet their daily transport needs with as little fuss as possible.
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I disagree as a Mustang owner, there is something about the roar of the v8, the smells, the noise, and the feeling it gives you. I am also familiar with EV's as being a former owner and they're soul-less, style-less, and shout that the driver doesn't want to be tuned into the world around them. They just want to listen to their podcast and go pick up almond milk and avocado toast.
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My day-to-day has to bring me comfortable from A to B (commuting) in the lowest cost possible. An EV gives that, a power car does not.
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