US Demands Reddit Unmask ICE Critic, Summons Firm To Grand Jury (arstechnica.com) 148
An anonymous reader quotes a report from Ars Technica: The Trump administration has stepped up an effort to unmask a Reddit user who criticized Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE). After failing to obtain information through a summons issued (PDF) to Reddit, the government reportedly issued a subpoena demanding that Reddit provide the information and appear before a grand jury in Washington, DC. The Intercept described the subpoena today. "According to a subpoena obtained by The Intercept, Reddit has until April 14 to provide a wide range of personal data on one of its users, whom US Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents have been trying unsuccessfully to identify for more than a month," the article said.
The legal saga began in US District Court for the Northern District of California. On March 12, the anonymous Reddit user whose information is being sought filed a motion (PDF) to quash a summons seeking a host of information from Reddit. The summons was issued by the Department of Homeland Security and directed Reddit to turn information over to an ICE senior special agent. The summons cited authority under 19 U.S. Code 1509, which is part of the Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act of 1930. The motion to quash said the summons is not authorized by the law, which deals with imports of boats, alcoholic drinks, and animals, among other things.
"J. Doe is a US citizen who has not traveled out of the country, is not engaged in any international commerce, has no business concerns outside the United States, and primarily uses their Reddit account to engage in political speech relevant to their local community," said the filing by the Civil Liberties Defense Center (CLDC), which represents the Reddit user. "Yet the government claims the right to obtain Doe's name, telephone number, home address, banking and credit card information, IP addresses, telephone model number(s), and the names of any other accounts associated with their Reddit account. The information sought by the government in no way pertains to customs or importing or exporting merchandise, and is clearly intended to chill free speech." "We should be very, very, very concerned that they've now taken one of these to a grand jury," said David Greene, senior counsel for the Electronic Frontier Foundation. "It's something to be taken very seriously."
A Reddit spokesperson told Ars today that "we seek to inform users of any legal process compelling disclosure of their data, as we did in this case, because users should have the agency to protect their own information and are often better positioned to challenge requests that impact them."
"We do not voluntarily share information with any government, especially not on users exercising their rights to criticize the government or plan a protest. We review every inquiry for legal sufficiency and routinely object to requests that are overbroad or threaten civil rights. When legally compelled to disclose data, we provide only the minimum required and notify the user whenever possible so they can defend their interests."
The legal saga began in US District Court for the Northern District of California. On March 12, the anonymous Reddit user whose information is being sought filed a motion (PDF) to quash a summons seeking a host of information from Reddit. The summons was issued by the Department of Homeland Security and directed Reddit to turn information over to an ICE senior special agent. The summons cited authority under 19 U.S. Code 1509, which is part of the Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act of 1930. The motion to quash said the summons is not authorized by the law, which deals with imports of boats, alcoholic drinks, and animals, among other things.
"J. Doe is a US citizen who has not traveled out of the country, is not engaged in any international commerce, has no business concerns outside the United States, and primarily uses their Reddit account to engage in political speech relevant to their local community," said the filing by the Civil Liberties Defense Center (CLDC), which represents the Reddit user. "Yet the government claims the right to obtain Doe's name, telephone number, home address, banking and credit card information, IP addresses, telephone model number(s), and the names of any other accounts associated with their Reddit account. The information sought by the government in no way pertains to customs or importing or exporting merchandise, and is clearly intended to chill free speech." "We should be very, very, very concerned that they've now taken one of these to a grand jury," said David Greene, senior counsel for the Electronic Frontier Foundation. "It's something to be taken very seriously."
A Reddit spokesperson told Ars today that "we seek to inform users of any legal process compelling disclosure of their data, as we did in this case, because users should have the agency to protect their own information and are often better positioned to challenge requests that impact them."
"We do not voluntarily share information with any government, especially not on users exercising their rights to criticize the government or plan a protest. We review every inquiry for legal sufficiency and routinely object to requests that are overbroad or threaten civil rights. When legally compelled to disclose data, we provide only the minimum required and notify the user whenever possible so they can defend their interests."
freedom (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: freedom (Score:3)
Laws with mission creep (Score:5, Insightful)
The use of the Smoot-Hawley Act to get this information is, as the defendant's argument points out, a weird use of an act with a totally different purpose. As is so often the case, the executive is seeking to get its way with legislation that wasn't intended for their purpose. It's how our freedoms die; laws nibble away at them without it being deliberate. If you can find a witch to hunt with the law, even better; the present growth of live face scanning technology in the UK is being driven by examples of sex offenders being spotted with it.
It's so much easier to rule the country if the population is kept surveiled and cowed into silence.
Re: (Score:2)
The affirmative defenses from the person whose name they're trying to get suggests that that law is clearly being abused and has no relevance here, which makes me wonder if someone within the DoJ is intentionally trying to throw the case. Let's hope so!
Re: (Score:2)
Is there a link somewhere to the subpoena? Without that, there's no way to know what's being alleged (and probably not even with that, the details will come out in a hearing).
Without those details, it's all speculation, and revenge fantasy, all blinded by TDS and MAGA insanity.
Re: Laws with mission creep (Score:2)
That's a question you have to ask about a lot of cases nowadays. But I think the best evidence we have from high profile instances of these types of issues suggests these are people doing the best they can with stupid illegal orders from above.
Re: (Score:2)
The affirmative defenses from the person whose name they're trying to get suggests that that law is clearly being abused and has no relevance here, which makes me wonder if someone within the DoJ is intentionally trying to throw the case. Let's hope so!
Could be.
But it could also be the case that the DoJ's lawyers just suck. The DoJ has suffered a massive brain drain of competent attorneys since Trump took office last year. First, they explicitly fired or otherwise drove out anyone who'd gotten tapped for the massive and complex January 6th prosecutions. Then they made clear that loyalty to the president had to take precedence over ethics, legality or morality, and that they would fire any attorney who balked at doing something just because it might g
An obvious attempt to suppress free speech (Score:5, Insightful)
The Trump administration lackeys are looking for someone to make an example of.
If they're successful in getting information about the commenter, everyone will simply stop using their reddit accounts and/or self censor.
Reddit is an obvious target. It is perceived as liberal by people who can't quite figure out that a completely free, easy to use, forum represents "average" not "left."
Re: (Score:2)
The Don Trump doesn't do free, you must pay for everything and he has to get his cut.
looks like a textbook 1st amendment case (Score:5, Interesting)
The only explanation for this reaching a grand jury is after a lawyer has told their handler "this is totally illegal and will never stand up in court", and being told to "just DO IT ANYWAY", making it only very thinly veiled harassment.
One nice thing here though is they can't lean on the individual exercising ther rights. (they don't even know they're the ones being targeted) Reddit is taking all the heat and standing up to the bully on the playground for them, which is awesome to see. And unlike the victim, they also have the resources (legal team, money, patience, media attention) to cleanly defend against this blatant over-reach.
If this plays out like it should, the grand jury will return a "no bill", which basically means the accusation doesn't even have enough merit to pass the lowest legal bar in existence. Or more specifically, "Your case has no chance of winning, and we've concluded they are probably innocent and you are just trying to waste the court's time and/or harass an innocent citizen"
In a more perfect world, filing garbage to grand juries should result in lawyers getting sanctioned (or even disbarred), but seeing as this administration is going through lawyers like kids go through shoes, I'm pretty sure any lawyer that joins this legal team already knows they're disposable. Hire a new one, let them submit some garbage filings, and just about the time the court's ready to start sanctions, kick 'em to the curb and bring in a fresh one. Unfortunately there's not a lot of check-and-balance for this sort of behavior, all you need is enough money to keep feeding into the fire.
Re: (Score:3)
One nice thing here though is they can't lean on the individual exercising ther rights. (they don't even know they're the ones being targeted) Reddit is taking all the heat and standing up to the bully on the playground for them, which is awesome to see. And unlike the victim, they also have the resources (legal team, money, patience, media attention) to cleanly defend against this blatant over-reach.
Reddit took the small step of notifying J Doe that there was a relevant subpoena. The motion linked from the summary was filed by Doe's attorneys (paid for by a nonprofit organization, of which Doe may or may not be a member, not by Doe themself).
Re: (Score:2)
Reddit is taking all the heat and standing up to the bully on the playground for them
Are they? I don't see that in the summary or the articles at all. All of the counter-filings are coming from the individual's attorneys, not from Reddit. Reddit is certainly to be applauded for not just voluntarily complying, for actually going to court, but it seems like *main* thing they have done is to notify the user in question, so the user could get lawyers from a non-profit, and it's those lawyers who are doing most of the work.
It was me (Score:2)
Anyone on the right wing want to defend this? (Score:5, Interesting)
I think the right wing knows this is going to bite them in the ass personally. I mean the rank and file the members of the Epstein class who are actually arranging all this are benefiting from it greatly. But I don't think they can stop because they've given up too many friends and family.
But come on right wingers. By all means defend this. Tell me why it's okay for the administration to go after somebody for some Reddit posts. Explain to me why you think it'll never happen to you.
Re:Anyone on the right wing want to defend this? (Score:4, Insightful)
One way out is to forgive them with empathy they failed to extend to others but not to forget because the primary enemy of all is the wealthy and corrupt that don't strictly adhere to any political party. Remaining divided-and-conquered balkanized, ignorant, or inactive carries water for the greedy criminal class.
Re: (Score:2)
That's...stupid. It's exactly what got you guys in opposition America the political paralysis you've had for the last 10 years. There's regularly people saying:
Re: (Score:2)
Something I've noticed is lately outside of safe spaces the right wing keeps their damned mouths shut. Every so often one of them will jump in and yell TDS or something but they never actually tried to defend the actions of anyone on their side or any of their policies anymore. Mostly they either avoid conversations outside of safe spaces entirely or they lurk and mod everything they don't like down.
I'm a member of the Republican party. I have been on paper for decades, and until 2016 regularly (but not exclusively) voted Republican. In 2024 when the state GOP organization decided to switch from primaries to closed caucus meetings, I decided to get active so I could vote against Trump. I've since decided my participation as a never-Trumper is a good idea, we need more people who are fundamentally conservative (or at least small-L libertarian) to get involved to rescue the party and return it to some
Re:Anyone on the right wing want to defend this? (Score:5, Insightful)
Every Republican president has tanked the economy, and the following Democrat has fixed it. This happened last time trump was in office, and is happening this time too. Biden fixed the economy reasonably well, and trump just fucked it up again. A MILLION AMERICANS DIED UNDER TRUMP that did not have to, because of his ridiculous response to covid. You're delusional if you think trump is doing anything good for the economy this time around. He started an unnecessary war with IRAN of all places, after campaigning on stopping wars. You people are the worst, you handwave away everything bad trump does because you think "woke" is still a thing on the left, or that it ever was a thing, and that it's somehow worse than electing a convicted felon insurrectionist as president.
Re: Anyone on the right wing want to defend this? (Score:2)
I think you should take another look at the economic transition from Carter to Reagan.
You can make the argument that Reagan used left wing policies to address economic issues in some instances, in opposition to his campaign promises, or that secular trends or geopolitics hurt Carter, but you can't make the argument that Carter left a good economy for Reagan to fuck up.
Re: (Score:2)
You most certainly can. Carter inherited a bad economy, and put in place specific policies that are, today, seen as the policies that solved the problems, noteably:
- Monetarist economics to deal with stagflation
- Massive Deregulation, especially with transportation
The effects of those policies took time to trickle into the economy, because the situation was absolutely terrible after eight years of Nixon/Ford, which included abandonment of the gold standard, and of course the energy crisis. But those were ab
Re: Anyone on the right wing want to defend this? (Score:2)
So... Like I said, Democrats don't come in and fix Republican messes. Carter didn't fix shit.
Re: Anyone on the right wing want to defend this? (Score:4, Interesting)
I think you should take another look at the economic transition from Carter to Reagan.
You can make the argument that Reagan used left wing policies to address economic issues in some instances, in opposition to his campaign promises, or that secular trends or geopolitics hurt Carter, but you can't make the argument that Carter left a good economy for Reagan to fuck up.
You absolutely can, if you really look at what happened and when. What happened, basically, was that Nixon and Ford left Carter with an incredibly-damaged economy, and Carter fixed it, but the fixes took a while to take effect. If Carter had had a second term, those changes would have taken effect while he was in the White House, but he lost. Reagan is to be applauded mostly for not undoing what Carter did.
What did Carter do? The biggest thing he did was to appoint Paul Volcker as Fed chair. Carter knew exactly what Volcker would do, and knew that it would be painful, but believed the economists who told him that it was necessary. They were right, Carter was right to believe them, and Volcker's medicine of high interest rates got inflation under control and the economy moving in the right direction, even though it caused two recessions. Reagan was smart enough to believe the economists, too, so he reappointed Volcker and made some famous speeches, especially the 1982 one in which he told Americans we needed to "Stay the Course". He didn't, of course, mention that it was Jimmy Carter's course that we were staying, but it was.
The other big thing Carter did was massive deregulation. Reagan is also often credited for deregulation, but he did very little of it while Carter did a lot -- energy, telecoms, trucking, airlines... and more. Carter really was "The Great Deregulator", not Reagan.
None of this is because Carter was some sort of economic genius (though he was an extremely smart man). It's because he got good advisors and took good advice. This is a pretty consistent story, actually. I think there are two main reasons why the economy tends to improve during democratic administrations and decline during republican ones: (1) Democratic administrations make better use of experts and (2) Democrats are less likely to go to war (though they do tend to engage in more small-scale, humanitarian interventions). Those are just my opinions, of course, and this is an incredibly complex space.
Re: (Score:3)
>They’ve led to far more prosperity and far less suffering than your suggested replacements.
Every Republican president has tanked the economy, and the following Democrat has fixed it.
The reality is far different.
Reagan, Bush, and Clinton (dancing the Gingrich agenda) created a twenty year run that especially saw gains in the working and middle class.
Bush 2 had a massive housing crisis (caused by criminally stupid bipartisan Clinton era policy) but mostly righted the economy by the end of his second term.
Obama presided over infamously slow growth that mostly consisted of less than optimal components: a massive outflow of industry to China and expanding government jobs.
Pre-COVID Trump 1 s
Re: (Score:2)
And let’s not forget that these western ideals that lepton disparages are far more important worldwide than lepton’s partisan obsession with falsely blaming republicans for economic downturns. Overall, they’ve brought billions out of poverty and tens of millions out of slavery. Plus the outcomes are immeasurably better than the alternative. Compare South Korea to North, West Germany to East, Sweden after its socialism attempt to the fiasco before, Taiwan to mainland China, Venezuela pre-Ch
Re: (Score:2)
Go educate yourself. THE DATA PROVES YOU WRONG.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
Re: (Score:2)
Ah yes, Wikipedia, that absolutely neutral arbiter of political economic analysis. Notice something? You didn’t address a single fact that I posted, plus you even imply that North Korea is a shining example compared to South.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Notice lepton’s ad hominem? That’s because he’s uncomfortable with the full context. Nothing I wrote is untrue.
Neither he or that ever-so-carefully constructed Wikipedia page defines a great economy in terms of quality of living for the middle and lower quintiles, which are the markers I discussed, but by how easily the rich can afford yachts, mansions, nannies, travel, and lawn care. By his and Wikipedia’s definition, the unions and republican reformers of the gilded age really mess
Re: (Score:2)
Nope. That isn't how any of this works, shithead.
The data proves you wrong. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
You're wrong. You just are. I'm sorry that the facts destroy your narrative, but those are the facts.
Re: (Score:2)
Nope. Absolutely nothing I wrote is incorrect. “Leptons” is deliberately supplying highly aggregated statistics that reveal very little about the actual living standards of the lower quintiles (the proletariat). The statistics I supplied are FAR more relevant, and easily verified, thus “Leptons” deflects (yet again) to ad hominem.
The key underlying problem: the credulous are extremely susceptible to Simpson’s Paradox, and democrats like Leptons are either highly credulous or fu
Re: (Score:2)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
Re: (Score:2)
Ah yes, Wikipedia, that absolutely neutral fully contextual arbiter of political economic analysis. Sure. And notice something? You didn’t address a single fact that I posted about a forty year span.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Notice the ad hominem? That’s because lepton is uncomfortable with the full context. Nothing I wrote is untrue.
He doesn’t define a great economy in terms of quality of living for the middle and lower quintiles - but by how easily the rich can afford yachts, mansions, nannies, travel, and lawn care. By his definition, the unions and republican reformers of the gilded age really messed things up.
Re: (Score:2)
Notice the ad hominem? That’s because lepton is uncomfortable with the full context. Nothing I wrote is untrue.
He doesn’t define a great economy in terms of quality of living for the middle and lower quintiles - but by how easily the rich can afford yachts, mansions, nannies, travel, and lawn care. By his definition, the unions and republican reformers of the gilded age really messed things up.
To put a finer point on it: the Wikipedia page’s concentration on unemployment instead of living wage employment, inevitably backfiring inflationary deficit spending, implicitly crediting naturally long term recovery arcs from shocks to democrats (COVID, housing crisis, etc), and on GDP instead of all quintile quality of living, are all classical tricks of democrat partisan economists.
Re: (Score:2)
You're wrong. You just are. I'm sorry that the facts destroy your narrative, but those are the facts.
In other news, ICE going after Robby Roadsteamer (Score:2)
Pretty Interesting (Score:2)
I'm more interested in Reddit's ability to provide any information beyond an IP address.
I even wondered how Reddit was able to inform the user. Then I remembered direct messages in the platform was likely the way.
Fundamental lack of trust in government (Score:2)
not the whole story (Score:2)
There is most likely more to this than is being reported. My guess is that the Reddit post(s) contained information about internal ICE matters such as intelligence techniques or operational plans that indicates to ICE that the guy (likely a girl) is an insider who is leaking.
Re: (Score:2)
Interesting take. You no doubt believe in Antifa too.
Oh, That's Fucking Rich (Score:3)
Re: Consequence culture (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, it depends. Did he really commit a crime and is the government action just? If yes to both questions, then law and due process should be followed.
But it certainly doesn't fell like it and the government trying to bring an ancient and unrelated law to the table is a bad sign.
Re: (Score:2)
> Did he really commit a crime
Yes he did. He annoyed the ICE. For this, he must burn!
Re: Consequence culture (Score:5, Informative)
The government historically was given the benefit of the doubt regarding whether their pursuit of justice was considered appropriate.
It's called Presumption of Regularity. [harvard.edu]
Recent filings, and arguments, have shown that there has been a shift in the governments approaches, and the judiciary has taken notice that they can no longer just give the government a pass.
Yup.
Re:Consequence culture (Score:5, Insightful)
I cannot image what you mean by "consequenceculture" or who you think the "zealous consequenceculture-people" are.
I'm all into thinking about consequences. You know, cause and effect, physical reality and all that. But all punishment for bad deeds. bad karma and so on. That's how we get things to work and have a civilised society.
So let's think about the consequences of the regime being able to get this guys personal info. Clearly they want it so as to shut him down and silence the criticism of government agency.
A consequence of the regime getting that power in this case through the courts would be that it is much easier for them to do the same in future cases.
A consequence of that is a chill effect in free speech, as nobody will want to attract such harassment
A consequence of that is the regime descending into authoritarianism and ending up like Russia, North Korea or Iran.
It sounds like all of that is OK with you. Is it?
By the way you seem to be judging that the guy was guilty of something and should suffer the consequences. Well, may I ask what his crime was?
Re:Consequence culture (Score:5, Insightful)
A consequence of the regime getting that power in this case through the courts would be that it is much easier for them to do the same in future cases.;
When a new administration comes in and uses the same tactics against those who now cheer such actions and yell "Hooray for our side" will be screaming how unfair it is. All of a sudden, payback makes what seemed like a good idea ta the time wasn't.
Re:Consequence culture (Score:5, Insightful)
When a new administration comes in and uses the same tactics against those who now cheer such actions and yell "Hooray for our side" will be screaming how unfair it is. All of a sudden, payback makes what seemed like a good idea ta the time wasn't.
Did that happen when Trump 1.0 ended? I don't recall that the Biden administration followed the same playbook that Trump did.
Some Trumpists might say yes, pointing to post-Jan 6 prosecutions for example. Well, legitimate crimes need to be prosecuted, even if the other side cries foul.
The problem is that when one side has truly become corrupt, they frame their opponents as corrupt, especially when they're taken to account later.
Re: (Score:2)
When a new administration comes in and uses the same tactics against those who now cheer such actions and yell "Hooray for our side" will be screaming how unfair it is. All of a sudden, payback makes what seemed like a good idea ta the time wasn't.
Did that happen when Trump 1.0 ended? I don't recall that the Biden administration followed the same playbook that Trump did.
Not claiming Biden did it, just that once the precedent is established and power yielded to the executive or government, it becomes one more tool both sides can wield. You saw some of that when Trump made a guns comment and all of a sudden the Bill of Rights became important again.
Re:Consequence culture (Score:5, Insightful)
No, and this is why supporters of Trump's behavior aren't worried about the consequences of these expansions of power. They see liberals' reticence for engaging in the same behavior as a weakness that can be exploited since they don't have to worry about the expansion of power being used against them. I'm not arguing that liberals should abuse these expansions of power - I'm simply explaining why Trump's supporters don't fear the effects of those powers coming back to bite them in times of liberal leadership.
Re: (Score:2)
Our side, we go for the head wound. Your side, you have pillow fights. -- Steve Bannon
Re:Consequence culture (Score:4, Insightful)
No, and this is why supporters of Trump's behavior aren't worried about the consequences of these expansions of power. They see liberals' reticence for engaging in the same behavior as a weakness that can be exploited since they don't have to worry about the expansion of power being used against them. I'm not arguing that liberals should abuse these expansions of power - I'm simply explaining why Trump's supporters don't fear the effects of those powers coming back to bite them in times of liberal leadership.
Indeed. And the only way this ends well is when voters decide that they don't like government abusing power the way Trump does, regardless of which side does it, and begin hammering those who do it in every election.
Sadly, there is zero evidence that most conservative voters care at all about abuse of office or the rule of law. We're going to have to suffer a lot more pain before people start to wake up, I think. Right now, we're at the stage where most on the right just assume that it always was this way, it was just hidden. We're not going to get any change until they decide that regardless of even if power was always abused and the law was always ignored, it sucks and it has to change.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
I hope you're right, but I'm not convinced. I see a lot of people on the right are getting tired of Trump's craziness, but I'm not sure they wouldn't be fine if it were just dialed back a bit, say to Trump 1.0 levels. In a way it may actually be a good thing that we're only a year and a quarter into a four year term. Assuming Trump doesn't keel over he's got a lot of time to convince Americans that it's a really, really bad idea to elect someone like him. Of course, he'll do a lot of actual damage along
Re:Consequence culture (Score:5, Insightful)
Go take a look at how the Biden administration threatened the news media to not cover Joe's dementia
The news media that didn't stop talking about it for the entire year of the 2024 election cycle? The thing Jake-fucking-Tapper wrote a goddamned book about? That the conservative media ran with the entire time in lockstep as they tend to do? The media that excoriated the man for his debate performance so much he was pressured to drop out? Oh such a coverup!!!
Meanwhile Joe Biden right now is out being normal in the real world with no "dementia" to speak of and looking more cognizant than the current sitting President. Almost like he didn't have dementia and was just a man getting older with too much on his plate. Fact is like with Hillaries health concerns Biden's "dementia" was a conservative fabrication and so called liberal media has actually been in the minority for the past decade and a half but conservatives rely on the media-victim-complex too much to admit it.
he did not prosecute Hillary Clinton for the email server
Or maybe instead of some stupid conspiracy which cuts against everything Trump has ever said and done and there just wasn't any evidence there after all and conservatives have been lying about her the entire time. Just like with Comey. Just like with Letitia James. Just like with Bolton. Just like with Hunter Biden.
Maybe Trump and Republicans are just a pack of illiberal liars. Maybe that's our Occam's Razor here.
Re:Consequence culture (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Consequence culture (Score:5, Informative)
And let's not forget how many criminal charges were made against Trump to no avail
Oh my god how could I leave this complete fucking lie hanging.
Trump was charged in NY and found guilty *by a jury* so cope with NYC being lefty all you want it was unanimous.
Also the Mar A Lago documents case and the Jan 6 indictment were not charged because Trump got control of the DOJ and dismissed them so we'll never know now (but we can read Jack Smith's indictments and.. well, it ain't good)
Also let it bee known that Joe Biden did not stop or interfere in the special counsel into his own documents mishandling, sat down for a deposition and allowed the Hur report to be published whil ehe was in office.
He also did not interfere in the special counsel investigation into his own son.
Final Report of the Special Counsel Under 28 C.F.R. 600.8 (Fake elctor plot indictment) [justice.gov]
Trump Documents Indictment [justice.gov]
Meanwhile Trump has mananged to dodge even being deposed for any of this.
The canyon of decency and legality between these two men is enormous.
Re: Consequence culture (Score:2)
"This person organized two riots in calls to murder ICE agents, one that resulted in the hospitalization of an ICE officer and also the death of a police officer.
So please for the love of god tell us you just didn't bother reading the complaint."
What's the evidence of this, though? Statements from ICE? If so, that's not enough credible reason to break through first amendment protections.
Can I see the original comments on Reddit? No? Then we have to trust ICE. And there's no reason to do so for many people.
Re:Consequence culture (Score:5, Informative)
I am wondering how the zealous consequenceculture-people feel about this, getting consequences for what you post online..
I certainly want relevant consequences for actions online, but I fail to see how it applies here.
If someone threatens to kill another person, they should be subject to the law as it relates. This is good.
If someone criticizes the government online, they are subjected to the law of importing boats without paying tariffs. This is bad. That is not what a lawful government does; that is what a tyrannical government does.
Re: Consequence culture (Score:3)
"If someone threatens to kill another person, they should be subject to the law as it relates"
Importantly, the law stipulates the threat must be credible.
Re: (Score:2)
They feel that need need throwaway email addresses, use Tor on top of a VPN and use a free WIFI where there are no cameras.
THEN you may exercise your free speech.
Re: Consequence culture (Score:2)
But everyone tells me that TOR is all that's necessary, and that running it over a VPN paradoxically makes it less secure.
Re: Consequence culture (Score:5, Funny)
These days it is easier to just live in Canada if you want to critize the US government.
Re:Consequence culture (Score:5, Interesting)
Consequence culture is a celebrity doing or saying something stupid and then being excoriated by their audiences and the public.
What's going on here is authoritarian repression of freedom of expression, with the implied threat of serious legal consequences against someone for expressing a viewpoint the government didn't like.
Miles apart.
Re: (Score:3)
Eh, a lot of people also believe in the 'consequence culture' that comes down to 'what should happen to weak people when they attack strong', the whole 'FAFO' fist pumping. Fuck around with ICE, find out what happens.. that is the consequence that makes up their culture.
Fascism culture (Score:2)
Those consequences do not include 1st and 4th amendment violations by the federal government.
Re: (Score:3)
careful what you wish for. according to this:
“John Doe responded by sharing that Ross had lived in Chaska, Minnesota; grew up in Indiana; and served in the Indiana National Guard—biographical details that were circulating widely at the time,” and wrote that “Hopefully he moves up to Stillwater State Penitentiary,” according to The Intercept.
On a different occasion, Doe suggested that another Reddit user write “Urine speaks louder than words” on an anti-ICE protest s
Re: (Score:2)
they already turned over the information of course, this is likely yet another false drama engineered to give people the illusion of privacy on reddit so people will spill thier beans on reddit and give themselves away, not to mention how over-moderated the top subreddits are, so i suspect the comments themselves are now invisble, the user's likely shadow banned, and labelled as 'unpleasent' and this must be a minor user moderated subreddit
me, i suspect that the deep state has backdoored reddit and every ot
Re: (Score:2)
I am wondering how the zealous consequenceculture-people feel about this, getting consequences for what you post online..
Quoted against the censor trolls with mod points. However I still can't figure out what it means and whether or not I agree with it.
Care to clarify? (Couldn't find any helpful clarity within the thread.)
Re:ICE protects women and children from Predators (Score:5, Insightful)
the worship of criminals, is over.
lol, your sad little cult is worshiping a convicted felon and you don't mind at all.
Re: (Score:2)
Typical victim blaming.
Look what YOU made me do! I didn’t want to vote for Trump but you MADE me!
Dipshit.
Re: (Score:3)
Not only that, it protects them from Aliens too! It's the whole package!
Re:ICE protects women and children from Predators (Score:5, Insightful)
Said by the one literally worshiping a pedo.
Re:ICE protects women and children from Predators (Score:5, Funny)
If you campaign against that, then you are evil (and an airhead virtue signaller). Full stop. BLM, the worship of criminals, is over.
OMG ICE arrested Trump? Why I have not read about this!
Re: ICE protects women and children from Predators (Score:2)
The fine taste of boot leather on your lips
Re: (Score:2)
So ICE is about to arrest the rapist and child-molester-in-chief? No? Did not think so.
Poe's Law (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
What are you talking about? ICE and MAGA is nothing but worship of criminals. Criminal behavior for them is a sign of which side ot the natural order they are on.. and they hate 'inferior' races acting above their station by committing similar acts.
Re: (Score:2)
That last one was uncalled for.
Re: Hey ICE (Score:2)
Is it? ICE enforcement doesn't generally target crimes. They target administrative lapses and paperwork issues. Not actions that constitute crimes. For example, a child brought here by their parents has committed no crime.
So, my guess is there's a pretty low bar to clear for ICE to spill over into causing more crime than they are stopping.
Re: (Score:2)
I'm not defending ICE's actions. I can't defend the indefensible. But nobody can be like them and claim the moral high-ground. They won't be around in their current form forever. As tough as it is, I recommend we wait them out, and speak out as needed, firmly but non-violently.
It has been accepted since biblical times that we must not suffer the sins of the father on the son. Let's keep that as a north star.
Re: (Score:2)
Fuck them specifically, yes. But punishment of kin is often wrong.
Re: (Score:2)
I no longer care.
Re:Hey ICE (Score:4, Interesting)
The world isn't such a black-and-white place. Some people live in towns where the job market absolutely sucks. If your choice was watching your own children starve or taking a job at ICE, what would you do?
Yes, there are some truly awful people who work for ICE, but there are also some people who took the job out of desperation and need the paycheck to put food on the table. Let's also not lose sight of the fact that the problem isn't ICE itself, but the administration that has ordered ICE to behave like a Gestapo.
Re: (Score:2)
The world isn't such a black-and-white place. Some people live in towns where the job market absolutely sucks. If your choice was watching your own children starve or taking a job at ICE, what would you do?
Yes, there are some truly awful people who work for ICE, but there are also some people who took the job out of desperation and need the paycheck to put food on the table. Let's also not lose sight of the fact that the problem isn't ICE itself, but the administration that has ordered ICE to behave like a Gestapo.
Nuremburg defense - aka "just following orders", is a failed justification for indefensible actions.
Re: (Score:2)
The world isn't such a black-and-white place.
It apparently is for the current ICE and BCP and the likes of Stephen Miller.
Re: (Score:2)
If your choice was watching your own children starve or taking a job at ICE, what would you do?
"The world isn't such a black-and-white place." Likewise the world is not full of binary options.
but there are also some people who took the job out of desperation and need the paycheck to put food on the table.
Don't care. There were other options. There always is. None of these people are "good" people. Hell most of them wouldn't even qualify as "neutral".
Re: (Score:2)
You do understand there's a difference between being banned from a forum for breaking some forum rule, and being thrown in prison, right?
Re: (Score:2)
And I wasn't banned from a shitty little forum, I was banned by a mod of that shitty little forum FROM ALL OF REDDIT.
Re: (Score:2)
> And I wasn't banned from a shitty little forum, I was banned by a mod of that shitty little forum FROM ALL OF REDDIT.
OMG! That's exactly like going to jail!
> Yes. Your point ?
You appear to think they're the same thing, as you just pointed out. Sorry if reading comprehension is an issue for you. I thought it was obvious in my comment, but apparently not.
A private forum telling you to get knotted is not the same as a government putting you in prison. These are different things. The first isn't just fa
Re: (Score:2)
If you can't follow the rules of a moderated forum you'll be shown the door. Ultimately, a ban from Reddit is meaningless. You can just ignore it and go on living the rest of your life like nothing happened. Try doing the same when you're being targeted by the government for potential legal prosecution.
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
BTW, this is actually a lie. A mod can't ban you from all of Reddit. Only an admin can. So whatever you did was so egregious that someone was able to report it as bad to an admin, and the admin felt it was bad enough to ban you.
Regardless, there's a world of difference between being banned from a website and being thrown in jail.
Re: Same same (Score:4, Insightful)
Why can't both be wrong.
Also, I don't recall armed agents knocking on doors because you didn't like masks. So not EXACTLY the same.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: ICE is essential like ZATCA (Score:2)
Iraq, Iran, and Pakistan are famously places with no terrorism. You must be on to something.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)