Maine Set To Become First State With Data Center Ban (cnbc.com) 58
Maine is on track to become the first U.S. state to impose a temporary statewide ban on new data center construction. "Lawmakers in Maine greenlit the text of a bill this week to block data centers from being built in the state until November 2027," reports CNBC. "The measure, which is expected to get final passage in the next few days, also creates a council to suggest potential guardrails for data centers to ensure they don't lead to higher energy prices or other complications for Maine residents." From the report: Maine's bill has a few steps to go through before becoming law, notably whether Gov. Janet Mills will exercise her veto power. Mills asked lawmakers to include an exemption for several areas of the state where data center construction could continue. However, an amendment to do so was stuck down in the House, 29 to 115. Complicating Mills' decision is her campaign to become Maine's next senator. Mills is facing off against Graham Platner, an oyster farmer, in a high-profile Democratic primary. Platner is leading Mills in most recent polls by double digits.
Bans are not the answer. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Bans are not the answer. (Score:5, Insightful)
I think a fair argument can be made that the buildout is not because people are using, but instead based on an expectation that people *will* be using them.
If it were the case that we overrun the capacity then one would expect companies to be a bit more restrained. Instead almost every google search gets an "AI Overview", inflating the query cost a hundred fold without the user ever actually opting in. So many companies are embedding AI implicitly into existing flows without user demand being actively expressed. This is not the behavior of a market starved of resources that would be saving the capacity for those that specifically opt into it and further the ones that would pay for it.
The scenario that we are under sized for the current demand would imply that no one should be able to see 'free' usage of AI in their experience and would be expected to pay up.
It's not just about the energy, we have water and land usage concerns as well. A few cases around here of farmland potentially going to datacenter buildout, and I'm not sure that's a good long term trade.
It's abundantly clear this is a tech bubble, with some undefined durable demand, but the current speculative buildout may never get fully utilized. By the time the non-bubble demand catches up, there's good chances that we have a whole other approach that dramatically changes what sorts of resources are needed. For example people sometimes defend the dot-com buildout as rational because, eventually, we surpassed even the dreams of back then, but we had to scrap a lot of that buildout as hopelessly irrelevant to the market that was all-in on internet.
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Part of what gets the average ratepayer are the infrastructure costs. Datacentre buildouts require sometimes-massive grid connections. Those upgrades often fall on the general public.
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Note they only temporarily ban it, which would buy them time to work out details precisely like what you say.
Such restrictions to manage the impact can take time to work out, moreso if all the business interests involved benefit by stalling establishing and enforcing such nuanced measures. If the status quo is build without worry and consequence, it's very hard to subtly move things toward still building, but with more responsibility and accountability.
If there is a moratorium, then the business interests h
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It depends on the controlling authority for individual utilities what will be their policies. Most local utilities are government-controlled affairs that get caught up in whatever public/private boosterism prevails in the local political scene. "Pro-business" policies usually include some incentives for locating your business in a particular city or county. And part of that may be a sweetheart deal when it comes to utility hookups (which inevitably leads to costs being passed somewhere else). These poli
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Agreed. I wish people would stop treating data centers as bogeymen. Most people aren't opposed to data centers per se, they're opposed to the side-effects. They're concerned about the energy usage and its effect on consumer energy rates. They're concerned about water usage. They're concerned about noise. They're concerned about heat pollution in the surrounding environment.
The thing is, all those things (with the possible exception of heat pollution) are fixable! They just take money and regulators with t
Re:Bans are not the answer. (Score:4)
Some of the concerns are fundamental.
They tend to prefer getting rid of farmland or forests. Maybe if they tended to target abandoned retail spaces like dead malls and shopping centers, maybe they wouldn't be so bad.
Especially since the current frenzy is a bunch of competitors of whom only some will likely survive a correction in the market. Hell, even without investment failures, a large number of these projects are plagued by logistics issues stemming from people eagerly making commitments they could have never realistically met. So we will end up with some 'datacenter blight' just like overdoing retail has left us with blight.
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"Require closed-loop cooling instead of evaporative."
Then you get big fans that sound like a WW2 propellor-driven 4-engine bomber making racket 24/7/365 as actual fans force the not-all-that-cool air (here in Texas, anyway, where ambient can be 106 degrees Mid July to late September) and drive everyone absolutely over the edge.
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That's the beauty of data, you can put the data center somewhere far from where the data is used. Put it somewhere appropriate, not Texas or other places that are high on ambient heat and low on water.
I've been wondering if geothermal might be a solution, only use the ground as a heat sink instead of a heat source. Here in Michigan's Upper Peninsula the abandoned mines stay at 40F all year round, regardless of the air temperature. Place the servers in the mine, drill some cooling loops into the rock. I do
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In Michigan's upper Peninsula, one out to build their data center in a waterproof tube, submerge it in lake Superior, and never worry about cooling it again.
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This is putting the cart before the horse. If people are using the services supported by the data centers, then why do we need more?
The reality is that the data centers are being built because the AI companies are desperately trying to give the impression that there's going to be a massive increase in demand for *checks notes* spicy autocomplete in the future. But it's far from certain that's true. Everything we've seen so far suggests a bubble - the technology is overhyped, a fair amount of usage of it is
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I agree. I don't care if you have a datacenter or a widget factory, if you are disrupting the electrical grid or polluting rivers you are a problem. Instead of legislating a specific industry, they need to put broader environmental laws in place. That way if somebody wants to make a green datacenter they can, and when the next environmental nightmare fad comes along no new legislation is needed.
I think they are the only answer (Score:3, Insightful)
As a country we don't do nuance. We are All or nothing. We just do not have the educational equipment to pull off nuance.
AI data centers are bad. Really bad. They guzzle drinking water and they go straight for drinking water because their design requires very pure water and its pricey to purify it and they're already losing money hand over fist. They also guzzle subsidized electricity. When one of them gets crapped down into your
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Nope. Hyperscale datacenters are for AI. Which has NO major revenue stream in the foreseeable future. They're burning through venture capital, to the point were reports say there's almost no VC for other business.
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Does AWS or any of the big AI companies really want to build a data center in Maine? It's not exactly near any major Internet backbones or major tech hubs. The electricity there is expensive as well, plus you have to worry about blizzards disrupting your diesel deliveries during a power outage.
It seems like someone is trying to score easy political points "protesting" something that probably wasn't going to be built anyway.
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Does AWS or any of the big AI companies really want to build a data center in Maine?
None so far.
It's not exactly near any major Internet backbones or major tech hubs. The electricity there is expensive as well, plus you have to worry about blizzards disrupting your diesel deliveries during a power outage.
Logistics is not the new hotness. The new hotness is YOLO.
It seems like someone is trying to score easy political points "protesting" something that probably wasn't going to be built anyway.
But . . . but won't anyone think about their freedom?
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What Maine does have (at least inland) is a lot of low cost real-estate, not the timber and pulp industries are insignificant but they own most of it and I am sure they'd love the opportunity to sell a few hundred acres for a onetime 100x multiple of their 'crop yield'.
The other part of this is 'data centers' need to be very well connected, but do 'compute centers'? While that historically has been a distinction without a different, maybe it does not have to be.
Be it for training (bulk data delivered infreq
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Tahoe used to be a bargain, too. Wait until the San Francisco transplants move in and see how cheap Maine becomes.
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Oh for sure, Maine has been on that trajectory for decades. Every since they embraced that "Maine Vacation Land" slogan at the state level.
The traditional industry (fishing, forest products, garment manufacturer, maritime construction) are being displaced. Garments are basically gone. Fishing, maritime construction / maintenance, forest products are learning to adapt mix and embrace tourism, to the extent they are surviving, it isn't just 'Bar Harbor' any more.
Maine is a gentrifying in a big way. Honestl
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Maine currently has four operational data centers and another seven that are announced but not yet under construction [siliconreport.com]. It took me about 30 seconds to find that information. You could have looked it up just as easily. See my signature quote.
Re: I hope nobody in Maine (Score:1)
Progressives are taking a cue from their European democratic socialists and getting really good at regulating industries they barely have.
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They don't ban datacenters, they just ban *new* datacenters, for now.
I haven't read as to what counts as new datacenter construction. If they can expand existing, or renovate existing. If it's anything like retail around here, datacenter operators being pressured to reuse existing infrastructure wouldn't be terrible. We have a blight of dead retail space even as they keep clearing forest to make new retail space. I would *love* if retail industry was forced to revitalize the abandoned retail footprint i
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has data that goes through, or is stored in a data center, otherwise, they'll come off like hypocrites.,
1) It's a temporary ban not a permanent one. 2) There have been no major datacenter projects in Maine yet. 3) One of the reasons for the ban is to allow the state to assess infrastructure changes. Some of these datacenters are being built with a "If you build it, they will come" attitude when it comes to infrastructure demands like electricity and water. In decades past when companies built datacenters, they had to plan for these things and some datacenters built their own power and water plants.
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No different from when ExxonMobil CEO sued to ban fracking in his backyard. We are all hypocrites. I don't want toxic chemicals spilt in my yard but ok with purchasing products that are made in 3rd world countries without regulations on exposure or storage to said chemicals. Ever see how 3rd world countries mine computer parts for precious metals? Data centers suck, they will raise the temp around and will be noisy has hell. I live near a pharmaceutical manufacture that keeps expanding and they are constant
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They're coming off as sensible people trying to find reasonable solutions to real problems. This is only a short term construction ban until November of next year. That will give them time to work out long term solutions and get the proper regulations in place. That seems sensible.
The CNBC article struck me as one sided and strongly pro-business. This article [cnn.com] is more in depth and goes into more detail about what the bill is meant to address. A relevant quote:
State lawmakers are reacting to the "speed, scale and secrecy" of many data center projects, said Jason Beckfield, a Harvard University sociology professor studying data centers. Developers are on highly compressed timelines of weeks and months. Often, projects can feel like they fall out of the sky, he said.
"There's such a strong culture of secrecy around these things, it leaves regular community members and their elected representatives in a position where they can't possibly hope to keep up," Beckfield said.
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Data centers don't build or maintain infrastructure or housing or anything tangible. In fact they are a parasite on infrastructure often causing massive cost increases to surrounding residents. Any job creation is short lived once the thing is up and running.
- It's leaches vs honey bees.
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- It's leaches vs honey bees.
Honey bees ARE an invasive species in North America. Invasive species are bad, right? /s
Paper mills are truly awful to be around. Necessary, but awful.
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Such an arrogant comment...
Datacenters improve the speed of thought... Across every domain. That's not valuable at all. I forgot.
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That would at least bring jobs.
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Datacenters are the least destructive business you could hope for
For whom and in what way? Be specific? Address thing such as the current power infrastructure, the pollution caused by insane permanent "temporary" power generators, the cost of utilities in states being subsidies by tax payers, the water use and water pressure on any given location.
There are many heavy industries which may be less destructive at any given location depending on local resource stresses.
since datacenters need water for cooling (Score:2)
That's stupid (Score:1)
Plus, any state that bans them is literally handicapping themselves economically. They're definitely tax revenue and job generators, although the job numbers are fairly low after the construction phase.
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Building the data center brings some temporary jobs but under normal operation only a handful of people work there. Mostly to change out failed hardware.
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New England BGP (Score:2)
Was anyone planning on building a data center in Maine in the next two years?
Ya' can't get thea' from hea'.
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I grew up with coal mines & "crackers" in my back yard and coal-trains rumbling past at 2-AM. Across town subsurface mine-fires burned for decades spewing massive SO2 & CO into the air. Pretty flames at night
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Problem is a lot of local communities do not understand these facilities.
Was a news story around here where a datacenter project was deeply regretted by the local politicians. They saw "business will build facitlity with huge amount of square feet" and their closest comparison was a textile plant of about that size and how many jobs they used to provide. So they excitedly bent over backwards to accommodate the datacenter project and then ultimately had an enduring employment of about 6 jobs.
Tax revenue? Th
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Better to let the market sort out how many data centers we need and where they should be.
I can tell you've never actually studied economics. The free market is a horrible allocator of resources and never works in the best interest of all parties. A well functioning market is governed by regulations that resolve a whole world of resource allocation issues to avoid things such as the Tragedy of Commons and similar economic outcomes.
The only one benefitting from letting "the market" do its work are those people billing you for using a datacentres. Both directly and indirectly by driving up your co
Bans are not the answer... nor are tax breaks (Score:2)
I don't think bans are the answer. But also, governments that offer bribes [youtube.com] to get data centers built are also doing the wrong thing.
I think data center construction needs to be regulated. The data center must pay property taxes just like everyone else, and it must provide money for every watt of power that it uses... money to build new energy generation capacity and transmission infrastructure so that other people's electricity rates are not affected by the data center.
While I sympathize (Score:2)
....part of me wonders about the opposite end of the 'tragedy of the commons'.
If a state were, for example, to ban all power plants within its borders, should it benefit from electric power created by such plants? (Of course the libertarian capitalist answer is they they're free to do so, but this gives pricing leverage to the states that ARE willing to suffer the siting of a power plant in their borders....)
Same with data centers. I recognize all their ills, and that (it certainly seems) that much of the
Data centers are like hog farms. (Score:2)
Their services/products do not require local production to enable consumption.
That people eat pork does not mean they should want a hog farm and its nasty environmental impacts nearby. There is plenty of land elsewhere. The US is enormous and most of it lightly populated. Logistics is a long-solved problem.
That people may use AI does not mean they need a data centers impact on their aquifers or nor its impact on their power production industry.
Those businesses are already often more distant than not from co