Honda Patents a Fake Clutch for Electric Motorcycles (electrek.co) 94
An anonymous reader shared this report from Electrek:
A newly revealed Honda patent shows the company developing a simulated electronic clutch system for electric motorcycles, complete with torque-boost launches and even haptic feedback designed to mimic the feel of a combustion engine.... Instead of using a traditional mechanical clutch, the system uses electronics to alter how the motor responds based on clutch lever position. Pull the clutch halfway in, and the system proportionally reduces motor output. Pull it fully, and power is cut entirely, regardless of throttle position.
But the more interesting part is how Honda intends to recreate the behavior riders actually use clutches for. According to the patent as reported by AMCN, riders could preload the throttle while holding in the clutch lever, then rapidly release the lever to trigger a burst of torque — essentially simulating the hard launches motocross riders rely on with gas bikes. Honda believes that could be useful in competitive riding situations where precise power modulation matters, especially on loose terrain or during aggressive starts.
Honda also appears to be working on recreating the feel of a gas bike, not just the control inputs. The patent describes multiple vibration motors placed in the handlebars and near the clutch lever to provide haptic feedback that simulates engine vibration and even the "bite point" sensation of a clutch engaging. In other words, Honda may be trying to make an electric dirt bike feel mechanically alive, or at least the old-school idea of what a breathing dirt bike used to feel like.
But the more interesting part is how Honda intends to recreate the behavior riders actually use clutches for. According to the patent as reported by AMCN, riders could preload the throttle while holding in the clutch lever, then rapidly release the lever to trigger a burst of torque — essentially simulating the hard launches motocross riders rely on with gas bikes. Honda believes that could be useful in competitive riding situations where precise power modulation matters, especially on loose terrain or during aggressive starts.
Honda also appears to be working on recreating the feel of a gas bike, not just the control inputs. The patent describes multiple vibration motors placed in the handlebars and near the clutch lever to provide haptic feedback that simulates engine vibration and even the "bite point" sensation of a clutch engaging. In other words, Honda may be trying to make an electric dirt bike feel mechanically alive, or at least the old-school idea of what a breathing dirt bike used to feel like.
Certainly more useful (Score:2)
than the fake shift points in their car CVTs.
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Re:Certainly more useful (Score:4, Interesting)
I wonder how many people on this site can ride a motorcycle. They have lots of opinions about the clutch, though.
I haven't ridden in years, but still have the endorsement on my license and my helmet. I've had two (used) bikes: a Kawasaki Kz1000 and a Suzuki GT380. No opinion on this clutch though until I've tried it.
"Shifter" becomes a selector, "Clutch" a safety (Score:3, Interesting)
I wonder how many people on this site can ride a motorcycle. They have lots of opinions about the clutch, though.
I haven't ridden in years, but still have the endorsement on my license and my helmet. I've had two (used) bikes: a Kawasaki Kz1000 and a Suzuki GT380. No opinion on this clutch though until I've tried it.
I have not ridden in decades, off-road. But as an engineer there is a clear advantage here. The throttle only has a certain amount of range, so having some sort of selector to change the interpretation of the throttle range makes a lot of sense. So some sort of "shifter" is necessary for that selection. Now a safety mechanism to avoid accidental selector changes would be a good idea. The "clutch" becomes such a safety in this digital EV world.
Do so now vs Have done in the past (Score:1)
I wonder how many people on this site can ride a motorcycle.
"Can" as in street legal riding today? Or "can" as in have ridden one at some point in their life, either street legal or off-road.
Also ATV have been know to have clutches and shift pedals too.
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I'm not going to look up or anything. All from memory. In the very early 80s I rode a few friends' dirt bikes. I believe it's left foot half up neutral and full up 1st gear. Then down clicks 2-5 gears then up-up back sequential shifting. I did ride a Harley Sportster too late 80s and I think it was the same pattern.
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Been riding since about 1993.
This seems like a lot of fuss. Either get used to the delivery of an electric motor, or stick with internal combustion.
Along with the simulated gear changes, I suppose they'll add some speakers to simulate the noise of of an internal combustion engine, with software subscriptions to make your e-bike sound like the engine of your preference - v-twin, inline four, etc.
Please select from the following:
1. Obnoxious Harley-Davidson without mufflers
2. Four-pot screamer with un-tuned
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I do. Just about a year ago, I bought a 2023 Indian Chief Bobber (dark horse edition)....just shy of 1900 CC of pure fun.
I could not imagine buying an electric motorcycle....even with all the things they may try to emulate.
There's now way they can simulate how a big V-Twin rumbles at idle or roars with gas......no way an electric can simulate that zen as you become one with the road and a mech
Re: Certainly more useful (Score:2)
I wonder how many people on this site can ride a motorcycle. They have lots of opinions about the clutch, though.
I would also question the usefulness of a clutch on an electric street bike.
On the other hand, offroad racing is completely different. Dirtbike throttles are pinned, you shift without the clutch (tire/dirt is the clutch), the clutch is how you control power output.
There is no amount of speed dependent throttle rotation to torque mapping, that can replicate the one inch of left hand finger movement used on a clutch. It's a completely different muscle memory that needs to be learned, and speed dependent mappi
Re: Certainly more useful (Score:2)
I'm pretty sure new riders can learn more throttle = go faster. There was a big fuss in F1 back in the day about getting rid of manual shifters. How many of today's drivers would go back to them now?
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I've been a rider for about 15 years. The absence of shifting is one of the things which makes EVs significantly less fun (in both cars and bikes/scooters). Even video games and movies recognize this in how they implement futuristic EVs.
The clutch on a bike is also more important than the clutch on a car, and it's a big part of the feel of a bike. Motorcycle clutches are 'wet', you can be half-on and half-off clutch. This is useful for helping control against engine torque to the wheels, 'engine braking' as
Re: Certainly more useful (Score:2)
Dunno about bikes, but theres little difference in driving feel (not sound) between an ICE car with an auto box and an EV. Unless you think shifting into D is some kind of at one with the machine experience.
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I want to know if they can replicate a "hover" that you can do with an ICE + clutch, where you can come up to a stop sign, go full clutch and give enough throttle to turn the engine at about 1500 RPM to create gyroscope balance effect and keep you upright, allowing you to ease out the clutch for a takeoff quickly after seeing it's safe to do so.
That would be a trick.
I'd buy an e-MX bike with a real clutch first (Score:5, Interesting)
Honestly, just add a flywheel and give us a real clutch. MX clutches are used to modulate power delivery, and by pre-spinning the flywheel with the clutch in, we have the ability to have instant stored kinetic energy to help maintain speed thru the whoops. We also use this for pitch control in the air - not sure this would work in a simulated clutch.
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I have to say I don't miss having a clutch on either of my OSET TXP 24 or OSET 24.0R, way more fun to ride than the petrol models
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I think it's helpful to point out that bikes often use wet clutches, which work and feel different to the dry clutches used in cars. I'm not sure the average person would understand how important a good clutch is to the usability of a vehicle, and wet clutches on bikes are much nicer to use than those in cars.
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Honestly, just add a flywheel and give us a real clutch.
Why provide a mechanical part that does something more poorly than the parts you already have on the bike? Clutches solve problems created by the nature of the internal combustion engine...
MX clutches are used to modulate power delivery
... they have no purpose in a system where you can modulate the full engine power delivery itself.
we have the ability to have instant stored kinetic energy
Kinetic energy assistance systems are not remotely what anyone is talking about here, but they would potentially have a place. But it is very much worth noting that such a system has an adverse affect on bike stability. Stori
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>> "Kinetic energy assistance systems are not remotely what anyone is talking about here, but they would potentially have a place. But it is very much worth noting that such a system has an adverse affect on bike stability. Storing energy in a moving flywheel enough to make a meaningful difference results in a gyroscopic reaction effect. Do you like high-siding? Because that's how you get high-siding."
We have kinetic energy assistance in current bikes. We can rev the motor with the clutch disengaged,
Re: I'd buy an e-MX bike with a real clutch first (Score:2)
A motor doesnt have anywhere near the rotating mass of a useful kinetic energy storage flywheel. HTH.
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The kinetic energy stored here is in the motor pistons not in a weighted rotational mechanism. It is very VERY different from using a flywheel, the latter of which are not actively used in motorcycles for kinetic energy systems. In fact quite the opposite, some bikes have them to improve vertical stability - not racing bikes mind you because you don't want a system providing variable vertical force when you are heavily leaning into a corner.
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The kinetic energy stored here is in the motor pistons not in a weighted rotational mechanism.
Nope. The pistons stop and reverse direction, so no "storage" here. When I was involved in making billet racing cranks for many of the top racing teams, adding weight to the crank flywheels was common. The clutch basket is also a flywheel, so those are sometimes made of steel as a way to add rotating weight.
Re: I'd buy an e-MX bike with a real clutch first (Score:2)
I have no idea what problem a flywheel would be trying to solve when you already have electric motors with full torque at any speed, putting that aside.
The clutch on a dirtbike is not used like the clutch on other things. They can be shifted without the clutch, part how their sequential transmissions are built, part the friction between the wheel and dirt being so low. You go through the whole range of power and speed back and forth so rapidly you don't waste time on the clutch most of the time, unless you'
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Anyone that thinks you're going to high-side yourself by having a moving flywheel interacting with a clutch either hasn't rode a motorcycle in their life, or hasn't been doing it very long.
Hint: you can use the rotational mass of the engine to keep you upright at stop signs, and then slip the clutch to start moving again with the RPMs you already are turning. This is very normal for experienced riders to do if they don't think they'll be stopped very long (i.e. stop sign with right turn)
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The engine is not a flywheel and doesn't generate gyroscopic forces.
The only motorbikes which have flywheels are explicitly those which do *not* require a driver to lean into corners and attempt to keep the bike upright. For example many touring bikes have small flywheels to smooth out engine performance, but it's small to the point of providing fuck all kinetic energy to the rider and no gyroscopic effects. Some dirt bikes have larger flywheels and they are aligned in an attempt to keep a bike stable and u
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So I can't hover on my motorcycle by spinning 2000 RPM at a stop sign?
Funny, because I do.
You seem to be unaware ... (Score:2)
... what electric motors are capable of. Seriously, a specifically designed for MX purposes e-motor will launch you into orbit if that's your aim. No need for flywheels or other ghetto-type shit / steam age technology.
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I do own an ebike, and have raced MX for years. Your assumptions fail you.
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Electric motors have instant torque without the spinning mass and gyroscopic effects.
Hopefully as well as the simulation mode, they work on creating entirely new ways to control the bike that take advantage of it being electric.
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We also use this for pitch control in the air - not sure this would work in a simulated clutch.
You don't need a clutch for that with an EV, because the instant motor response means that human response time is the weak link in the chain. The vehicle will rotate faster than you can even recognize that it's necessary.
Just what we need (Score:4, Insightful)
Brilliant. In 25 years people will look at these and wonder "what the hell were they thinking?"
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UI and power source are two separate things (Score:1)
So we're taking a superior, simpler power source and drive chain and adding a fake clutch to make it simulate an older, inferior power source and drive chain. Brilliant. In 25 years people will look at these and wonder "what the hell were they thinking?"
Probably not with respect to having a toe shift and a clutch. We still need a selector, At a given moment you want the throttle mapped to a certain range of the full potential power output. It's safer and allows better human control. We still need a safety to make sure a selector change is not accidental.
The user interface and the power source/drive train are two separate things. The ergonomics of the motorcycle UI map quite well to this need for a selector with a safety. This UI evolved over a century o
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So we're taking a superior, simpler power source and drive chain and adding a fake clutch to make it simulate an older, inferior power source and drive chain. Brilliant. In 25 years people will look at these and wonder "what the hell were they thinking?"
Frankly I'm thinking... whatever it takes to sell bikers on replacing their painfully noisy kill-me machines with silent kill-me machines is worth it.
As for the "it's loud so car drivers know I'm there", sorry but the only times I've ever not known a bike was near me is when they were doing something illegal, unsafe, and unpredictable. People who refuse to wear high-vis reflective clothing don't get to pick how loud their vehicles are.
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>"Frankly I'm thinking... whatever it takes to sell bikers on replacing their painfully noisy kill-me machines with silent kill-me machines is worth it."
They are only loud if illegally modified. Mine is no louder than most cars.
The problem with electric motorcycles is that there is not enough room for batteries. Until you can produce something with 160+hp per 600lbs *AND* 250 mile range, not interested.
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No idea why ignorance was modded as insightful.
They are taking an electric motor and re-implementing a control scheme that allows control over the torque delivery that isn't available with just a throttle.
But if you didn't ride motorcycles, you wouldn't know that, and post some drivel about older inferior power source and mention the drive chain twice for unknown reasons..
25 years later they will be saying "what took them so long?".
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In 25 years people will still be collecting and riding their old ICE bikes -- the old electric versions will probably be inoperable due to software lockouts that prevent repair and various other proprietary tomfoolery. Even as a tech enthusiast, I'm loathe to accept that new stuff is superior in usability, let alone utility.
I've driven manual car transmissions my whole life, and I can't stand automatics. I hate the "hill-holder" behavior and the fact the car just lunges forward on its own when I don't push
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Ever heard about QWERTY keyboards?
No, I also think in this era of electronic computers, they will soon disappear into oblivion.
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Nostalgia sells. Even better, it sells best to the people with most of the money.
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No they aren't. They are taking a superior simple power source and simulating a control scheme that previously was used by riders using two degrees of freedom to modulate powers to the wheels in a way that is for the rider easier to achieve than using a simple linear throttle control alone.
I get where you're coming from, on the face of it it sounds similar to the IONIC 5N's fake gear shift that Hyundai introduced, but in this case it's vastly different. The point here is not to simulate the feeling of some
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It's bizarrely common with EV cars already. Some have fake engine noises, and some even have a whole fake clutch and gear shifting system. The silence and instant, uninterrupted torque are the best things about EVs.
Interesting idea (Score:3)
As a motorcycle rider feathering the clutch is a normal action.
Industrial variable frequency drives usually have high torque at low speed setting often used with conveyor belts or positive displacement pumps. This sounds like the same sort of idea.
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Industrial variable frequency drives usually have high torque at low speed setting often used with conveyor belts or positive displacement pumps. This sounds like the same sort of idea.
It's not. That's FOC drive. It allows using [near] max torque at low RPMs. It's the opposite of using a clutch - not using FOC at low RPM is more like having a clutch.
Is it just me? (Score:1)
Or does this sound like an ICE motorcycle with extra steps?
Non-bikers, please don't comment (Score:2)
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You have no idea why we enjoy riding these machines.
Same for people who've never driven cars with manual transmissions.
(Both my 2001 Honda Civic and 2002 CR-V are manuals, as were both my motorcycles [slashdot.org], btw.)
The clutch sounds like a good idea for people who (Score:2)
As for the other "motors"
Sounds like they're trying to make a ladies bike or
maybe a woman's bike for people who ride for reasons other than to go places.
nudge nudge wink wink is she a goer ay?
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"Sounds like they're trying to make a ladies bike"
Wow, that's some 1pth century anti women on bike BS right there.
Reminds me of a similar product (Score:1)
When I was a kid, my friend had a plastic engine that was fastened to the frame of his bike. It had D batteries and made engine revving sounds. It did not actually affect the movement of his bike. But, boy, was really cool.
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Ys, for a kid. an adult wants a pretend part because they can't get with the times is pathetic.
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I rememeber when I was a kid my father telling me about how they used to stick cards in their spokes so their bikes sounded like they had motors, but then they realized it was slowing them down and stopped.
Sad. (Score:2)
Imagine being so insecure you have to pretend to be using an older version of an engine? sad.
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The new Harleys have a feature that randomly dumps oil on the ground to mimic the classic HD experience.
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>"The new Harleys have a feature that randomly dumps oil on the ground to mimic the classic HD experience."
You forgot the horrible out-of-balance vibrations, strange noise, and mediocre performance. Then you would get closer.
There is a reason I ride a 16 valve inline 4 with variable valve timing (and stock muffler).
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Imagine being so insecure you have to pretend to be using an older version of an engine? sad.
I think it's more about wanting to have the option for control you can't get with an automatic, cvt or fixed transmission, but can and are used to with a manual transmission. I have never owned a vehicle (car or motorcycle) without a manual transmission. If you haven't or can't drive a stick, you don't know.
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I don't know even though i have driven stick shift for years. Fortunately I don't have to do that anymore, since manual transmission has become uncommon.
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since manual transmission has become uncommon.
Yup, that's why I'm keeping my 2001 Civic Ex (135k miles) and 2002 CR-V Ex (62k miles), both manuals, as long as I can. I think there are only about 6 vehicles available with a manual transmission now, and two are Hondas - the Civic Type R (basically a $45k race car) and the ~$35k Civic Si - but both my cars are in great shape and run well and I like them. Automatics feel "mushy to me and I'm not sure CVTs are reliable enough yet.
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I haven't expected to read all of this in 2026. 20 years ago maybe, but not now. Are you a time traveller?
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They aren't pretending anything about the engine. They are providing multiple control interfaces that work in different way for people. There's good technical reason to do that, simple linear control is not always the best way to control something. It's the same principle that is in play as to why a car with a single pedal driving mode still benefits from having a brake pedal. Despite both of them in theory acting on the same ultimate degree of freedom (acceleration) there's technical reasons why you split
Stalling an option too? (Score:3)
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Hopefully. Nothing livens up driving like that surge of adrenaline you get in front of a long line of cars when you've stalled your cranky old beater and aren't sure it's going to start again. Something to provide the smell of a burnt clutch would be great too.
Recreating traditional controls can be useful (Score:4, Interesting)
At first I thought this was really dumb. Besides, how can you patent something that's non-existent. But then I figured it can be useful to recreate familiar controls and how they feel. Makes it easier, especially in competition, to back and forth between different types with no loss of skill and reflex. I mean these are recreational machines. Let them have fun regardless.
There is precedence for simulating the action and feel of controls. Happens in aircraft all the time to help ease the burdens of type rating. And I realized that all my newer tractors on the farm no longer have a clutch in the same sense as the old dry clutch days, yet they still have a pedal that simulates it electronically. Technically they call it an inching pedal.
They already have an electric trials bike (Score:3)
https://global.honda/en/topics... [global.honda]
I saw this bike being ridden at one of the FIM world rounds last year. It was fun..sounded like a sewing machine about to spin itself apart at full throttle. Then the rider 'dumped the clutch' and it did what a trials bike was supposed to do. Pretty impressive, really.
The definition of the word (Score:4, Insightful)
The American Heritage Dictionary defines "ersatz" as follows:
adjective Being a usually inferior imitation or substitute; artificial.
adjective Not genuine; fake
Honda's faux clutch strikes me as slightly less ersatz than the vroom-vroom noises pasted on to some electric cars to make them mimic IC vehicles. Still, the idea seems a bit silly. It's like the video game version of a traditional motorcycle.
I'd rather see drivers / riders of these new vehicles lean into their unique characteristics. I think they should develop a new mythos, rather than pasting pictures of yesterday's glories on these whole new beasts. Clinging to the trappings of an IC engine when you have stoopid amounts of torque available throughout most of your RPM range just strikes me as kind of lame.
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Still, the idea seems a bit silly.
Not necessarily. Providing multiple degrees of freedom to modulate an input to a power train does present some real benefits to humans, especially if both control inputs work in different ways with different characteristics.
We are not machines. We can't perfectly modulate a linear input to achieve what we want in every circumstance.
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Good points - thanks. TFA mentions muscle memory, which makes what you said more compelling.
I do wonder if catering to ICE-era reflexes might hinder adaptation to the possibilities that electric motors offer.
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We are not machines. We can't perfectly modulate a linear input to achieve what we want in every circumstance.
But this is nothing more than giving you a more complicated control to use to attempt to modulate the same linear output. Two inputs are better than one? Doubtful, it makes more sense to learn to operate the one input, or to improve the shaping of the one input to make it easier to do the same job with the single input.
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Two inputs are better than one? Doubtful, it makes more sense to learn to operate the one input
Okay apply that same thinking to your brake pedal and accelerator. Ignore everything technical behind it and focus only on you and the control input and the degrees of freedom under control. The degree of freedom is one: acceleration. The control inputs are two: accelerator and brake. You as a human are actively in a better position having one control for accelerating and another for decelerating, even if both inputs can in some combination clash (pressing both at once).
Even in single pedal driving systems
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It's not *just* about the torque.
You don't ride purely for the engine's performance characteristics, there are other factors involved.
I like the noise*. I like the vibration. I like the feedback from the engine and gearbox.
*It's just a Moto Guzzi, not an "enhanced" H-D. It's not obnoxiously noisy.
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I take your points about the importance of tactile and audible feedback. Still, I wonder if esthetics might get in the way of feedback queues specific to electric drive.
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Just pulling a throttle on a silent EV "motorcycle"....even though it might launch you into the future....will not have the same appeal...
Good idea (Score:2)
The point here that I see is they are mimicking the torque modulation techniques used by riders today. This isn't just trying to fake a gas motor's feel--they are catering to the expected user interface to the engine's torque, negative and positive. At least at the start of adoption, this sort of thing could be important for safety and transferring/using as much previous bike handling experience as possible into the new platforms. Now to see if this gets implemented and if it actually is helpful and peopl
So dumb (Score:2)
Speaking as someone who loves driving a stick shift car, the idea of a fake clutch just seems dumb to me.
I drive a stick because I like operating equipment. The clutch has an actual purpose. I don't *have* to have a clutch because clutches are so cool. It's because they do something that is needed by a manual transmission.
If I'm driving an electric car (or motorcycle) there is no appeal to having a clutch, because it's...fake. I'll pass, thank you.
Does it have a kick starter too? (Score:2)
I mean, if we're going to try to mimic the old days, go all in! And how about a fake gas tank and exhaust pipes! And while we're at it, we've got to have that earth-shattering ROAR!
Solution looking for a problem. (Score:1)
Nostalgia's a heel of a drug (Score:2)
At the same time in history, nobody was driving one-speed transmissions. Why? Because it was the
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Some people drive to get from A to B. Other people enjoy the process.
I like driving a manual transmission because it gives me pleasure to exercise my skills and judgement, it's not a case of hanging on to outdated tech, it's just fun. There's lot of old tech that we keep, because it's fun.
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I like manual transmissions because I tend to drive older cars. I could buy a newer car, I have a job and money in the bank, but then I would have less money in the bank in case of an emergency. When you have a problem with an automatic transmission, it tends to be expensive. Most of the time when you have a problem with a manual transmission, it's not even in the transmission. It's a bushing or a mount or the clutch.
Traditional automatic transmissions CAN be good, but most of them suck. CVTs CAN be good, b
At least they can't patent a fake muffler. (Score:2)
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Those things can barely perform when they're hot. Riding off on a cold H-D engine is asking for trouble.
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why does every Harley owner need to idle the thing in their driveway for half an hour before leaving?
Because they use deliberately shitty old technology to produce a specific sound. i.e. because they are shitty old bikes even when new.
Problem is, people are stupid. e.g. modern vehicles are designed to start and go. As soon as the oil is circulating, you can move off. This is true of practically any motor without wet sleeves, up to around 9 or 10 liters. You need to take it easy, until it's fully come up to temperature don't access the high Rs or load it heavily. But your average roofing contractor thinks h
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To quote Dara O'Briain... (Score:2)
But... why??? (Score:2)
Idiotic (Score:2)
I guess (Score:2)
Rolls Royce will have self-driving cars where you have to yell at the simulated chauffeur to drive faster.
If this is anything like the (Score:1)
Boeing MCAS, run!