Honda Retreats To Hybrids After Failed EV Bet Triggers Record $9 Billion Loss (electrek.co) 145
An anonymous reader quotes a report from Electrek: Honda is waving the white flag. The Japanese automaker previewed two new hybrids set to launch by 2028 after taking an over $9 billion hit over its failed EV bet, leading to its biggest loss in company history. Honda admitted it was "unable to deliver products that offer value for money better than that of new EV manufacturers, resulting in a decline in competitiveness," after suddenly announcing plans to cancel three new EVs in the US in March, warning restructuring costs could reach 2.5 trillion yen ($15.7 billion).
After posting its first annual loss since it became a publicly traded company in 1957 on Thursday, Honda's CEO Toshihiro Mibe revealed the company's comeback plans. Honda is no longer planning to phase out gas-powered vehicles by 2040. Instead, Honda now aims "to achieve carbon neutrality by 2050," including a mix of EVs, hybrids, carbon-neutral fuels, and carbon-offset tech. Starting next year, Honda plans to begin introducing its next-gen hybrids, underpinned by a new hybrid system and platform. Honda said it aims to improve fuel economy by over 10% in its upcoming hybrids. The new system is expected to help cut costs by over 30% compared to Honda's current hybrid system.
By the end of the decade, Honda plans to launch 15 new hybrid models globally. In North America, its most important market, the company will introduce larger hybrids in the D-segment or above. Honda previewed two of the new hybrids during the business update: the Honda Hybrid Sedan Prototype and the Acura Hybrid SUV Prototype, which the company said will go on sale within the next two years.
After posting its first annual loss since it became a publicly traded company in 1957 on Thursday, Honda's CEO Toshihiro Mibe revealed the company's comeback plans. Honda is no longer planning to phase out gas-powered vehicles by 2040. Instead, Honda now aims "to achieve carbon neutrality by 2050," including a mix of EVs, hybrids, carbon-neutral fuels, and carbon-offset tech. Starting next year, Honda plans to begin introducing its next-gen hybrids, underpinned by a new hybrid system and platform. Honda said it aims to improve fuel economy by over 10% in its upcoming hybrids. The new system is expected to help cut costs by over 30% compared to Honda's current hybrid system.
By the end of the decade, Honda plans to launch 15 new hybrid models globally. In North America, its most important market, the company will introduce larger hybrids in the D-segment or above. Honda previewed two of the new hybrids during the business update: the Honda Hybrid Sedan Prototype and the Acura Hybrid SUV Prototype, which the company said will go on sale within the next two years.
If they can't figure out EV (Score:3)
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Not really. EVs appeal to a different market. You have to be able to afford the time to charge one*. Which means your time probably isn't worth much. Sure, I have to slop $100 worth of dinosaur juice in my car. But that's dirt cheap compared to the additional charging time an EV would take.
*Seattle, for one, completely blew the EV economics out of the water when they modified building codes to allow zero parking residential construcion. No more overnight charging. And the traffic cones and old lawn chairs
Re:If they can't figure out EV (Score:5, Insightful)
EV sales are increasing every year in Europe, while fossil sales decline. Same in China, another of Honda's markets.
Honda really screwed up. Their first EV, the Honda e, was small and low range, but it was innovative and really good fun. It showed that they understood EV tech and how to make a great electric car.
For the follow up, they rebadged a Chinese EV, and now seem to have given up. There was supposed to be a cooperation with Sony, but no sign of it.
Quite a few of the Japanese manufacturers missed the EV boat and are struggling now. Panasonic battery tech is okay but struggles against Chinese and Korean products. The Japanese EVs on the market are mostly mediocre. The Ariya is a good car, but the new Leaf is going to struggle to compete on price, and the Micra is a rebadged Renault. Suzuki are messing about with EV versions of fossils. Toyota have and okay but not particularly great EV, but seem to be holding out for the solid state batteries that they have been promising for years. Theoretically great, but in practice they will probably not be competitive on price, at least for as long as it takes everyone else to get their own out.
Meanwhile BYD are installing 1500kW chargers in Europe, and selling cars that take 5 minutes to go from 10 to 90%. Even the daftest EV sceptics have a hard time arguing with that.
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Meanwhile BYD are installing 1500kW chargers in Europe,
Grid capacity. And that includes the local utilities equipment needed to supply the chargers. We had a 12 station Tesla charger installed in a local supermarket parking lot. Once the Tesla equipment went in, the site remained fenced off for 6 months. Reason? No transformers available. And when one was finally delivered, it was rated at 1500 kW. For all 12 chargers.
We have had a couple of charging sites go in where the utility power available was insufficient. And the owners just went with diesel gensets. C
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High power chargers here come with batteries, sized to cover the peak times.
I hear the grid in the US is pretty crap though.
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And when one was finally delivered, it was rated at 1500 kW. For all 12 chargers.
And yet when you plug in 12 cars at once they will all charge at full rates. Have a think about why that is for a movement, if you're struggling think about what is used to store energy in a car and why there is that big arse outdoor equipment cabinet near the Tesla supercharger.
And when you're thinking "nah that can't work", google the word Duty Factor and you'll be well on your way to understanding why you problem isn't one.
Re: If they can't figure out EV (Score:2)
You know that gasoline can easily ignite, right?
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You know it is easier to put out gasoline fire than lithium battery fire, right?
Yup, just smother it with a bunch of lithium batteries. :-)
Re: If they can't figure out EV (Score:2)
So which is now, spontaneous electrocution or spontaneous fire?
Because most modern Li batteries, in particular LiFePO3 batteries, are largely incombustible. You really need to try hard to ignite them, and even then you're likely to fail if you don't know whatbl you're doing.
Gas on thenother hand...
Re: If they can't figure out EV (Score:4, Informative)
While technically correct gasoline fires are horrendous and when they happen on a road they will often lead to a shutdown of the road for many hours at a time. There really is no great different in risk to public and effort from emergency response between an EV on fire and an ICE vehicle on fire.
Let me explain: ... proceed to spend several hours cleaning up the road as the fire will have resulted in major oil and fuel spill that need to be carefully cleaned unless you want your highway to turn into a BumperCar ring. Depending on how bad the fire was this can take several hours and given the amount and type of lubricants employed in an ICE vehicles it's significantly difficult.
Lithium fire: - If it's incipient it can be put out, if it's not then dousing it with water isn't to put it out, it's to stop it spreading while waiting for it to burn itself out. When you're done with your lithium fire you move the husk of the car to the flatbed and open the highway.
Gasoline fire: - If it's incipient it can be put out easily, often with an extinguisher which is always the first step. If it's not then gasoline is insanely difficult to put out due to the amount of cooling you need to apply to everything to prevent re-ignition. Fire departments have a hell of a struggle putting out a fully developed ICE vehicle fire. When you're done you move the husk of the car to a flatbed and
At the end of the day it really doesn't matter what the car is, if you're called out to deal with it, it's gonna be an annoying fire.
- I'm a trained reserve firefighter. Yes I've put out both types of fires, but luckily I've not been involved in any cleanup activities.
Re: If they can't figure out EV (Score:2)
It's also toxic if you ingest or inhale or touch it. People are used to the risks of gasoline, or complacent. Nice thing about lithium batteries is that you won't have to inhale the fumes every morning while stuck in traffic. (Only solution to traffic jams is bikes, buses, and trains. EVs won't solve that quality of life issue)
Re: If they can't figure out EV (Score:2)
But EVs, but maybe self-driving could. You have to admit, individual door to door public transport would be pretty cool.
Re: If they can't figure out EV (Score:2)
*not EVs
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Re:If they can't figure out EV (Score:5, Informative)
If you're in NYC, Chicago, you also need a garage (probably a space heater too) because you're not going to be able to charge those things at most charging stations when it's -10F outside.
I live in Boston, where it gets considerably colder than NYC and have no issues charging outside /w an outdoor L2 device mounted to the side of my house. I also spend most weekends in the winter in the mountains in Maine, where it gets very cold. Also no issues with outdoor L2 charging.
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This is nonsense. People do multi day trips in Europe, e.g. driving from the UK to Italy. There is a guy on YouTube called Andrew Till who does it regularly, and has no issues even in older EVs. Our infrastructure is just much better than the US, it seems.
Or maybe it's exaggeration, because from what I hear the situation in the US isn't that bad now.
Anyway, vehicle too load is great for real camping.
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never forget that America is always too big, freedom loving & exceptional to do soon what others have been doing for a long time.
except for dropping bombs
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Norway seems to have it all figured out. https://spectrum.ieee.org/norw... [ieee.org]
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Please explain how people in Norway cope.
Re: If they can't figure out EV (Score:2)
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Continental Norway is comparable to driving the entire coast of the continental US. Or from Orlando to Oklahoma City if you prefer.
=Smidge=
Re: If they can't figure out EV (Score:2)
I saw a Tesla with Dutch plates on it when I was in Serbia last summer. Thatâ(TM)s a long way from home (nearly 2,000 km) in a less developed country. It seems some people arenâ(TM)t worried about long haul in Europe either.
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Also, if you are dumb enough to do a long haul and find yourself in a 10 car queue for the charger
I have found it is quite common at Airbnb stays and holiday camps that it is usually acceptable to throw an extension lead out the window and charge from that. Sure it is slow but if you are spending a couple of days at a location you can usually get a full charge. The key is to ask if it is ok first. With Airbnd stays I have let them know how much the power I will need will cost them and most are fine giving that for free. With the holiday camp they already had a optional modest extra daily fee they ch
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What the frick are you talking about? Why wouldn't it charge in cold weather? Are you stupid? Have you ever used an EV before?
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And do you really think no one takes road trips in other parts of the world that sells EVs? There's a huge number of charging stations going up every month in the US. There's ultra fast charging technology already being deployed in Europe and China. 10-97% in 9 minutes. CATL just introduced even faster charging. You braindead luddites are insufferable.
Re:If they can't figure out EV (Score:4, Interesting)
People don't take long haul trips in Europe.
You don't know much about Europe do you. You'll find vehicles registered from every EU nation in literally every other EU nation, especially around vacation season. Some people (like infamously the Dutch) travel to every corner of the EU (and beyond) in their cars on long road trips especially in the summer vacation. The Dutch in case you were wondering also have the highest EV adoption rate in the EU. There's a reason that for example the Danish news will run traffic updates that include the state of the Gotthard tunnel despite that being 1300km away.
Especially in high vacation season when charging stations can have queues of 10~15 vehicles.
Sounds like a problem at your local beach. I've never had a queue at an EV. Though I'm sure it does occasionally happen one or two days a year in specific places.
Also, if you are dumb enough to do a long haul and find yourself in a 10 car queue for the charger .. go to an RV campground and rent a space instead. Keep some high voltage adapters and plug into the RV electric ports to charge.
Wow you've just added hours to your trip instead of just waiting for the 10 car queue to clear (by the way 10 cars in a queue at a typical Tesla supercharger would very likely have you plugged into and charging within 45min).
EVs only work if you live in a city and never leave it.
You should tell that to my friend who drove her EV across Australia (a place where charging infrastructure is even worse than America). She'll be shocked to know her trip didn't actually happen.
If you're in NYC, Chicago, you also need a garage (probably a space heater too) because you're not going to be able to charge those things at most charging stations when it's -10F outside.
*Checks watch*. Okay I was worried I slipped back into 2010, but no I'm still in 2026 where EVs have absolutely zero problems what so ever charging at -10F so I'll just assume your knowledge of the situation is wildly out of date.
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Honda was not able to match the cost and still ensure expected f
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You get in the driver's seat and it immediately feels more intuitive to control.
Also some continuity. I know they're adjacent model years, but my 2001 Civic Ex (135k miles) and 2002 CR-V Ex 62k miles) - both w/manual transmissions - have almost identical controls placement. But maybe that's common, idk.
Re: If they can't figure out EV (Score:2)
" Honda design is typically more well thought out than a GM or Ford or Nissan vehicle"
Unless it's a Honda EV SUV and then it's made by GM.
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Nothing wrong with EV version of fossils. I am on my fourth electric car, the first three are being also sold as ICE cars and the current one (Hyundai Inster) is a modified ICE car. Suzuki really should make an electric Ignis. If they do, it might be my next.
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There are a few that are decent, but mostly they are inferior to pure EVs because the design is always compromised by the need to have the fossil drivetrain option.
That said the guy I mentioned who does UK to Italy regularly used to do it in a 6 year old Kia e-Niro, which was available as a hybrid.
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Not really. EVs appeal to a different market. You have to be able to afford the time to charge one*. Which means your time probably isn't worth much. Sure, I have to slop $100 worth of dinosaur juice in my car. But that's dirt cheap compared to the additional charging time an EV would take.
Yeah, no. They need to use "modern" fast charging batteries, as does every EV brought to market in the next couple of years. Both BYD and CATL have solved this problem -- https://electrek.co/2026/04/21... [electrek.co]
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Right.
BEVs are like Gucci.
Honda isn't seen to be Gucci.
No one wants a Honda BEV.
Charging time, even for the kewl new Chinese BEVs make them... Difficult to justify. Unless your time isn't constrained (read "you're rich").
When ARE taking off around the world, is hybrids of various kinds. FCEV hybrids, etc.
The most interesting that I've seen is by Mazda. They call it a plug hybrid, but it's a BEV with a small wankel engine (with re-engineered edge seals) that ONLY charges the batteries while you drive.
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"EREVs" also have a "full on engine" that needs just as much maintenance. They're also very inefficient because the conversion chain of fuel > mechanical > electrical > battery > electrical > mechanical is much worse than fuel > mechanical.
There are reasons to have that kind of system but efficiency ain't one of them, and if you aren't aiming for efficiency in a personal vehicle what the fuck are you even doing.
=Smidge=
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Honda just needs to build in one of their super-quiet EU3000i generators with a modern EV version of the CRX.
Make it run on propane so can swap out a tank at any US grocery store in 1 minute and be good to go.
Re: If they can't figure out EV (Score:2)
Have to pay fuel tax and use a LPG tank rated for fuel use
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One of my Hondas gets such good fuel mileage I'm forced to pay $170+ separately per year for road tax.
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That seems to be to perception of some people, but for most of the country in practice it's the opposite.
EV owners that have a house or have charging where they live just plug in when they park and then it charges when they're doing something else. A few seconds plugging in is much less time consuming then driving to a gas station and spending a few minutes filling up.
If someone doesn't have the ability to park somewhere they can charge (either home or work) then an EV isn't going to work out for them.
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A few seconds plugging in? Are you just plugging directly into the output of a nuclear plant?
And, not everyone owns a house... some do live in apartment buildings without garages (some have a garage, but no power to the garage). And, of course, there's the need for electricity to power all these charging stations.
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A few seconds plugging in? Are you just plugging directly into the output of a nuclear plant?
Are you really that dense? Once you plug in your car in the garage, you don't have to stay with it. You ca go into the house and get on with your life (or slouch in front of the TV, if that's what you want) while your car charges.
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Again... "And, not everyone owns a house... some do live in apartment buildings without garages (some have a garage, but no power to the garage)." -- to quote myself from about 25 minutes ago.
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I feel like you must have forgotten to read every other sentence of my post and only read the sentence in the middle.
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You are an idiot. Read his post
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I assume these people also avoid electric hot water heating because the wait to have a shower would be too long.
Re: If they can't figure out EV (Score:2)
You donâ(TM)t need to stand there holding the plug while itâ(TM)s charging! I canâ(TM)t imagine it taking more than a moment to plug it in.
Re: If they can't figure out EV (Score:2)
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It's not a different market. EVs are the way of the future. They made up 25% of cars sold worldwide [theevreport.com] last year, a massive gain from five years earlier when their global market share was just a few percent. They're continuing to grow fast almost everywhere. Ten years from now, ICE car sales will be a rounding error in many countries.
Honda failed to make competitive EVs. Instead of continuing to invest and figuring out how to compete, they're giving up. That's a recipe for obsolescence.
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if you drive your car 24/7, sure, that makes sense.
But if you sleep, chances are your car and charge when you're parked.
And depending how far you drive - if you drive less than 50 miles a day, you don't need to upgrade anything - just use a Level 1 charger. Yes, the slowest charging in the world can work surprisingly
Re: If they can't figure out EV (Score:2)
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charging is problem for a lot of people but not a big deal for many, many more.
it's not necessary to wait for the ideal solution. if that were the case cars would have taken much longer to dominate.
much better batteries are coming soon but even the ones from 5+ years ago were good enough for the vast majority.
Re: If they can't figure out EV (Score:2)
Re:Honda is cooked (Score:3)
China's R&D into EV's has paid off and now they are the lowest-cost-producer and have the most EV IP. China even invested in factory robots, making it hard for Japan to compete on labor costs by using robots.
Yes, the Chinese gov't subsidized much of the R&D, but it appears to have worked.
Detroit is also probably F'd. They can live on gasoline laurels for a few decades, but will probably gradually shrink. Most small cars will be EV such that gas stations will gradually close shop, making gas cars eve
Honda makes EVs? (Score:2)
So....quit before they've even tried?
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Until recently, they made a couple of EVs using GM's BEV3 platform. The partnership with General Motors has been dissolved and Honda is now focusing on hybrids, instead.
Re:Honda makes EVs? (Score:4, Informative)
No one in America really wants them (EVs).
That's a pretty simplistic generalization. BEVs account for about 6% of new vehicle sales in the US, and have been as high as 10% in recent quarters. [ref [caredge.com]] In California, it's like 13% market share. That's small, but hardly "no one". By comparison, muscle cars are about 1% of new car sales.
Put differently: if "no one" wanted EVs, then how does Tesla keep turning a profit?
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"That's a pretty simplistic generalization. "
It's really a Republican generalization. It's a troll, as always comes from. that poster.
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Muscle cars (big ICE engine), sure.
How about regular ICE vehicles (including diesel)?
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PHEV, dammit! (Score:2)
They will regret it (Score:3)
In 90s, people used to access internet via dial up modem and the largest modem manufacturer was Hayes. Suddenly, they went bankrupt.
What went wrong?
The highest data rate, a phone modem can support is 56 kbps. They made 56 kbps. Unfortunately, ISPs were not ready. They were still on 28 kbps. Since Hayes 56 kbps model were expensive, they had to heavily discount them and went into a big loss.
What was their response?
They retooled the manufacturing to produce 28 kbps. By the time, they went into full production, the ISPs switched over to 56 kbps. They couldn't sell their obsolete 28 kbps modems.
I see some parallel here.
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You got your timelines wrong. When Hayes went bankrupt, hardly anyone had DSL.
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15 years later, sure. It's almost as if ISDN didn't even exist, or fractional T1. History's not /.'s strong suit, or anything else.
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Sure, businesses used ISDN and/or fractional (or even whole) T1... but, you're not running either of those to your residential 2-bedroom house, same with an OC-768 line... you could, but I doubt it'd be as cost effective as DSL or cable modem (when they became available).
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I personally went from dial-up to cable modem. No DSL or ISDN in between.
Re:They will regret it (Score:4, Interesting)
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Hayes' real problem was that clones got cheaper, as they usually do. Hayes tried to stay ahead of the curve by making ever faster modems, but when the ISP ceiling that you mentioned hit, they couldn't use that curve anymore, and were stuck competing on price alone, the clones' forte. The premature "56" model mistake was just icing on the death cake.
Honda Hybrids (Score:5, Informative)
No charge worry.
No stress about battery.
No modification of my driving style.
It was really a no brainer for me. Yes, I may eventually go full EV. But at this point in my life and on my budget, this just works for a relatively small extra cost. .
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However, I'm a bit surprised Honda can make such fantastic (series) hybrids, but can't build a decent EV. EVs should be simpler.
Should have brought them out sooner (Score:3)
Hybrids are a pathway to EV, but until chargers are as common as gas stations, they're the right way to go.
I have a plug-in.
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Hybrids were a pathway to EV, until chargers were more common than gas stations, except in countries that lagged the rest of the world.
Hybrids are kinda "ick" .... (Score:4, Interesting)
I've been driving EVs since I first got a used Tesla S (2014 P85D). I have a 2020 Chevy Bolt EV I use as my daily driver right now. I recently rented a 2025 Toyota Camry Hybrid, which seems to be in high demand and very highly rated/recommended out there.
My experience was ... disappointing. Now granted, it delivered on the fuel economy part. I drove it several hundred miles over a few days' time and when I went to refuel it before the rental return, it only needed 6 gallons of gas to fill it back up. But the whole driving experience felt like a big step back from any EV I'd driven. You had the constant sensation of a gas engine turning on and off at various times, and a constant reminder the battery pack in the vehicle was tiny and only a part of a more complicated system. (You could put the car in "EV mode" to make it drive only on battery, but it would only allow it at very low speeds, like driving around parking lots.) Ultimately, it was just a car lugging around all the things required for an internal combustion engine AND electric vehicle parts at the same time. Double the complexity and a rolling compromise. (Better interior than I'm used to seeing w/Toyota though.)
I'm kind of confused w/Honda. Their "EV strategy" seemed to me like it was basically about trying to sell that Prologue which was really a GM designed car getting rebranded as a Honda product + hand-waving that they'd do cooler stuff soon.
Truthfully? I think one of the big challenges with EVs across the board is trying to mask the high cost of the battery pack, motors and other electronics involved. You can "do it right" by not caring and slapping a high price tag on it. Then you get an EV that still maintains people's expectations for "fit and finish", a nice interior, and really good handling. The BMW i4 eDrive 40 is a great example here, or even the Porsche Taycan EV. But most people just want a cheap car that's reliable, avoids the need for gas fill-ups and oil changes, while still handling well and feeling like corners weren't cut on the build quality, interior and exterior. That doesn't really seem to be doable, yet? Tesla sure doesn't. They just design vehicles that few people think look great on the outside. but "wow" them with all the infotainment / computer capabilities on the inside. Keep the interior really bare-bones but put that big touch-screen front and center to distract them. Spend enough on the seats so they're really comfortable, but use a real basic "skateboard" suspension and frame across the whole product line. It goes fast enough in a straight line so they'll ignore other handling issues.
Don't get me wrong. I like Tesla vehicles. I'm just being real about what one is and isn't. I don't think an established brand like Honda is comfortable making all those compromises, and they're just not seeing a profit margin in converting what they build now into a full EV?
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That was my experience owning a hybrid. Ultimately, the controller part that mated the EV and ICE vehicle parts was what failed, and the cost of trying to fix that negated pretty much any fuel savings we'd ever get out of the vehicle.
A plug-in hybrid with a proper battery that can run as an EV for short trips and us
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I think one of the big challenges with EVs across the board is trying to mask the high cost of the battery pack, motors and other electronics involved
That may have been true until recently. Now in many countries, where vehicle cost are determined by actual vehicle costs and not politics, BEVs are the cheaper option in both up front purchase cost and running costs.
GM is a Liability (Score:2)
Worse idea (Score:3)
ICE is going to be banned in half the world (Score:2)
Europe is set to require 90% of all new cars sold by 2035 to be EV. There are ICE bans set to happen by 2035 or 2040 in various parts of the world. But Honda, run by a bunch of selfish boomers, is willing to torch the earth even if it destroys their company.
Honda Used to Make Small, Fun, Good-Looking Cars (Score:3)
I'm still looking for an EREV (Score:2)
The EV customer base is limited (Score:3)
People who live in condos, townhouses, apartments, single family homes without driveways - those people don't have a place to charge their vehicles at home. The optimal use case for an EV is a house with a garage and a charger in the garage. That group is wealthier, but more limited in number. What vehicle is that group going to choose? Single family homeowners with garages are probably going to go for higher-end electric vehicles. Hondas are a largely reliable economy to mid-range cost vehicle, for which that first group I listed above is the customer base, it seems to me. Honda might just be catering to their target audience.
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You can't have EVs without cheap electricity
On a per-mile basis, EVs are already cheaper. Compare a Model 3 using 0.25 kWh/mi at $0.20/kWh (charging at home, US residential rates) versus a similarly-sized sedan getting 38 mpg at $3.00/gal. The Tesla's "fuel" cost is $0.05/mi; the sedan's is $0.08/mi.
Cheaper electricity helps - such as using off-peak metering or residential solar. More expensive gas also helps - like misadventures in the Middle East, or a gas tax that reflects the actual costs of highways and environmental damage.
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Personally the maths is way more complicated for me, because I have solar, so charging looses me $0.15/kWh in grid feed earning making it $0.02/km vs $0.21/
Two problems with that (Score:2)
The bigger issue is AI data centers. Utah for example is about to put one online that uses more electricity than the entire state. You cannot double the demand for a product overnight and not have costs shoot up. Especially with nobody actually building out new infrastructure because we are too busy grabbing every single dime we can get our hands on and giving them to Elon Musk so that he can be
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With either party, you won't get electricity as cheap as you think... they'll charge you as much, and maybe a little more, than you currently pay.
https://www.instituteforenergy... [institutef...search.org]
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(Oh... forgot to add... guess where the minerals and materials we need to make the solar panels and wind turbines come from (or are made)? Your buddies in China (where either the minerals are refined or the thing is built in a polluting factory)! And, how does that stuff get to the US? On diesel-powered ships (even if it's an electric motor turning the prop) or maybe jets (both of which are still polluting).)
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