Swiss Voters Reject Proposal To Cap Population At 10 Million (theguardian.com) 83
An anonymous reader quotes a report from The Guardian: Voters in Switzerland have rejected an unprecedented far-right proposal to cap the country's population at 10 million in a divisive referendum dubbed "the Swiss Brexit." Some 54.79% of voters were against the proposal by the Swiss People's party (SVP) and 45.21% were in favor. Turnout was 58.86%. A different outcome would have obliged the Swiss government to limit the population, currently 9.1 million, to 10 million by 2050, enacting tough restrictions on family reunification, residency permits and asylum if the number had reached 9.5 million before that date.
Under the proposals, if the threshold of 10 million people was exceeded before 2050, the Swiss government would have been obliged to withdraw from the country's free movement agreement with the EU -- ending its access to the bloc's single market. The SVP, which has the most seats in parliament, has for years fueled anti-immigrant sentiment, especially concerning workers from neighboring EU countries. The party had insisted that a so-called "sustainability initiative" was needed to address the increase in population, which it argued was putting pressure on Swiss infrastructure, housing, social programs, natural resources and way of life. "Voters were worried about negative consequences for Switzerland's relationship with the EU and for the labour market," said Urs Bieri, from the polling firm GFS Bern. "People are also worried about things like having enough care and health workers. Also, there's a feeling that in the current international environment it's not sensible for a small country to do this."
Under the proposals, if the threshold of 10 million people was exceeded before 2050, the Swiss government would have been obliged to withdraw from the country's free movement agreement with the EU -- ending its access to the bloc's single market. The SVP, which has the most seats in parliament, has for years fueled anti-immigrant sentiment, especially concerning workers from neighboring EU countries. The party had insisted that a so-called "sustainability initiative" was needed to address the increase in population, which it argued was putting pressure on Swiss infrastructure, housing, social programs, natural resources and way of life. "Voters were worried about negative consequences for Switzerland's relationship with the EU and for the labour market," said Urs Bieri, from the polling firm GFS Bern. "People are also worried about things like having enough care and health workers. Also, there's a feeling that in the current international environment it's not sensible for a small country to do this."
Re:Moslems (Score:4, Insightful)
This has nothing at all to do with Moslems.
I'm not sure when things changed, but up until around 20 years ago it was quite difficult to move to Switzerland - you had to have some job skills that Swiss nationals didn't have, at least in sufficient quantity. Then they made an agreement with the EU which granted them access to the EU market (and vice versa) with free movement of population in both directions, I knew several people - mostly in Finance - who then moved to Zürich, Brits, Germans and French. There were presumably some Italians who also headed over.
The SVP is a classic xenophobic party and they've essentially been shouting "too many Germans, and other foreigners".
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The thing is , Switzerland was always stuffed to the gills with germans, french and italians. I've never met a more multilingual people than the swiss.
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German-speaking Swiss, French-speaking Swiss, Italian-speaking Swiss. I have no idea how homogenous (aka "inbred") the country's citizens are.
I was speaking to one of the first category around 15 years ago and he said that on his travels within the country, he'd been somewhere where he did not recognise the language and he asked them - presumably in German - what they were speaking. It turned out that they were speaking the (very) local dialect of Swiss German.
3-4 years ago I was in a Ski resort and went
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Romansch gets spoken in the valley west of Chur, essentially between Chur and Disentis. It may also be spoken in the valley S of Tamins but I've never been there so I don't know.
Speaking to a local in a small town (maybe Saas Fee) around 20 years ago, he said that the language spoken there had changed in his lifetime - it was German by then and I can't remember what it had been previously.
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No, there absolutely aren't any such places in England and Germany.
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I live in one and spend a lot of time in the other one.
Utter clueless garbage, it seems you have never been to either one or you'd know that.
Re: So.... (Score:2)
I live in London. Can you tell me where I apparently canâ(TM)t go?
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List them.
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You're thinking of propaganda, and fear-based messaging is at the heart of most of it from every direction.
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Getting what you wish for (Score:5, Insightful)
We know what it looks like when a country's population no longer grows. It's not pretty.
Japan is Exhibit A. Younger people are forced to pay more taxes to take care of a disproportionately large elderly population. Elder care becomes more and more expensive, and difficult to find at all.
Countries that welcome immigrants are able to increase the tax base, and supply critical labor that locals don't want to do, including taking care of the elderly.
Re:Getting what you wish for (Score:5, Interesting)
It is even worse for Switzerland. Switzerland is a high-tech nation that does not have enough STEM personnel, because they do not educate enough. Hence they need a massive influx of engineers, MDs, etc. Many (not very smart) Swiss citizens complain, for example, that many MDs are not Swiss, completely overlooking that the alternative is not having enough. Dumb people that cannot think one step ahead is unfortunately also a fact of life in Switzerland....
Re: Getting what you wish for (Score:2)
And Switzerland needs dental hygenists. If it weren't for Danish dental hygenists working in Switzerland, the Swiss not procreate at all.
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> Dumb people that cannot think one step ahead is unfortunately also a fact of life in Switzerland....
This is completely ignoring the fact the proposal was actually rejected by the majority of voters last Sunday, as were many similar proposals in the past (with only a few dumb exceptions).
The system might not be the fastest, but it's proven to work pretty well.
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The dumb people are still there. Or have you somehow overlooked that a lot of people voted for this? Hence I have no clue what you are talking about when you claim I am ignoring things.
Tokenising the swiss (Score:3)
I was looking forward to tokenising the Swiss citizen. There would be fewer of them than bitcoins and not growing in populations, so by the same logic bitcoinETF use they would appreciate. And they are even backed by gold. Dang.. I'd have made a fortune.
Re: Tokenising the swiss (Score:3)
When a Swiss person dies, does the system experience monetary tightening?
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"We know what it looks like when a country's population no longer grows. It's not pretty"
If your economy depends on infinite population growth it's not an economy, it's a Ponzi scheme. I don't know what a practical upper limit for Switzerland is but there is one.
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Foreigners are totally looking to come to the West so they can pay for Boomers' pensions.
Re:Getting what you wish for (Score:4, Insightful)
Maybe you haven't met any immigrants. What they come for, is a better life. For them, that often means the availability of jobs, often jobs that other people don't want. Despite the types of jobs available to them, including elder care, the jobs and pay are better than what they had where they came from. That makes it a win for them, and a win for the country that welcomes them.
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I am an immigrant.
Never once in my life have I or any other immigrant I've known said they moved to pay Boomer pensions.
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Sounds like we agree then.
Why did you move? I'm guessing it was...for a chance at a better life, just like all of us.
There are only bad options and worse options. (Score:2)
"We know what it looks like when a country's population no longer grows. It's not pretty"
If your economy depends on infinite population growth it's not an economy, it's a Ponzi scheme. I don't know what a practical upper limit for Switzerland is but there is one.
There are only bad options and worse options, depending on your world view. If you're an arrogant asshole with a cushy life, then small population growth is a terrible idea because of climate change or whatever bullshit ideology you embrace without thinking of the consequences. Reduced population means your economy either finds a way to mass murder the elderly or the functioning economy can barely function with all the load caring for the elders. If you're rich and comfortable and far removed, this seems
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In that case, you might say that all of life is a Ponzi scheme. Life itself depends on growth. And eventually, all of life dies, when it can no longer grow.
Cities and countries follow a similar pattern. They must grow to thrive, and when they cease growing, they begin to die.
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I take an opposite view - all life has a growth phase, which ends. Growth is a means to an end (generally, sexual maturity) rather than a continuous process.
If you're talking about population growth rather than organism growth, that is generally constrained by resources and competition. Humans at least have consciousness to perceive that, and thus the possibility of avoiding the worst outcomes of hitting those limits.
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Yes, I agree with that view, that all life is a growth phase that ends. It feels a little like you're switching sides, since you started by suggesting the Ponzi scheme.
Where we probably differ, is in the analogy to population growth. Like organisms, population growth is the healthy phase, that also ends. We can see this in the myriad dying small towns all across the US. These places were once thriving, but are now mostly boarded up. This has nothing to do with constraints on or competition for resources. Th
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> all life is a growth phase that ends [...] Grow, or die.
I'd phrase it, "all life HAS a growth phase that ends", and "grow forever, and die".
I think a stable population size and prosperity are not mutually exclusive. (I think you're arguing they are.) Productivity is the magic that means you can do this without freezing living standards (because it means the same population produces more value).
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Yes, I do think a stable population size and prosperity are mutually exclusive. If a nation is shrinking, it cannot indefinitely thrive. It might thrive for a time, but eventually the shrinkage will take a toll. This is true in nations like Japan, Italy, Spain, and Portugal. Each is struggling to make things work despite their declining populations.
There are some categories of labor where productivity cannot easily be improved. Categories like elder care, medicine in general, home maintenance and cleaning,
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We know what it looks like when a country's population no longer grows. It's not pretty.
Housing is really cheap in Japan, though. Sitting here, looking it Florida's real estate prices... now where'd I put that Infinity Gauntlet?
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Japan's housing is both cheap and expensive, depending on where you live. In cities like Tokyo, housing is very, very expensive. In rural areas, it's cheap.
But supposing housing were cheap everywhere, cheap homes don't care for elderly people by themselves. You've got to have people--younger people--for that.
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But you take in too many, too fast, AND if you allow those that are diametrically opposed to your values and way of life.....YOU LOSE YOUR COUNTRY.
and that's what we're seeing now across EU and trying to combat in the US.
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What makes you think that "our" values are superior to "their" values? Aren't immigrants people too? Don't they want a good life, just like the rest of us? Don't they want freedom and justice, just like the rest of us? Aren't they willing to work *harder* for these things, than most other people who call their nation "home"?
Maybe "our" values are misguided, even bigoted. Maybe we have some important lessons to learn from immigrants.
In the history of the US and many other western nations, immigrants have con
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Controlled, slow, invitation of foreigners to your country is called Immigration, when it happens in an uncontrolled, quick manner, without invitation, that's called an Invasion.
Furthermore "Just because you let someone stay in your house, doesn't mean they get to re-arrange your furniture". You'll never find out if your "values are misguided" if they cease to exist to be replaced by someone else's values. What you are arguing for is to not resist, while your own erasure happens. This is neither logical nor
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Your definition of "invasion" doesn't jibe with history. National borders are a new phenomenon, in terms of history. Until about 1900 or so, people moved to another country by...moving there. There was no CBP to determine who was, and was not, allowed in. In any numbers. If the newcomers behaved themselves and abided by local laws, there was no problem. If they came in and started hurting or killing people, *that* was an invasion.
You used the analogy of someone moving into your house and rearranging the fur
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Infinite growth is an unreasonable expectation.
As for the cohort of elderly needing care... this is a short term problem. As the excessively large post-WWII generation dies off, the following (smaller) generations will not have need for as much elder care. We still need to care for our elders, but even this need will not grow infinitely.
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Infinite growth is an unreasonable expectation.
Correct. No nation, no city, no organism, grows forever. It grows until it starts to die. This is all part of life. But we don't have to hasten the process.
Elder care is just one problem for a shrinking population. Just look at America's small towns, to see what shrinking population looks like. They are places people *used to* want to be.
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There are alternatives to grow::die as a socio-economic system. We could choose to prioritize stability over growth.
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Can you name a single example?
I don't believe there is an alternative to growing vs. dying. Whether it's a living thing, or a civilization, those are the only two choices.
Now, it's true that in living things and in civilizations, at a small scale there is both growing and dying happening all the time, within the same structure. Cells are born, live, and die. Cities grow, and then die, within a thriving nation. But the larger arc is always one direction or the other.
Sanity did prevail (Score:5, Insightful)
And it was both votes ("Staenderat" and individuals) that rejected it. It would have to win both to become law.
The whole thing is right-wing conservative assholes that cannot do actual solving of problems and hence try to compete with simplistic proposals. Fortunately, enough people saw how badly this idea was thought out and how massive negative the consequences would have been (loss of basically all treaties with the EU if the limit were to trigger).
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Its always the same kicking post too, "It must be the immigrants". I had someone ranting to me the other day about how she didnt feel safe anymore and crime was thru the roof blah blah no go zones, No matter what statistics I showed her that in fact crime had consistently been dropping over 20 years and the days while certain parts of town in the 1970s and 1980s you where taking your life into your own hands entering, in 2026 those areas are mostly gentrified luxury appartments, and so on, she just wouldnt
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if you ever engage with her again just ask to see where she gets her information from.
Or just punch her and tell her it can't be a crime because in her reality you're not an immigrant and thus don't count in crime stats. :-)
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People overestimating crime where there is little or none, are basically harmless in the bigger picture.
The deluded morons who want to play nice with "soft" sentencing and pretending crime should be re-defined to not be so 'unfair', are the real threats to society. People cannot logically dismiss actual harm any more than they can dismiss the real consequences.
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The thing is, only about 10-15% of the population are independent thinkers and only about 20% can be convinced by rational argument (about 30% on questions not (!) important to them). The rest is like the person you described. No insight, no understanding and completely closed-off to facts. There is no known way to reach them. Sometimes a major catastrophe in their lives can do it, but even that is not assured to.
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Did it? When you consider Switzerland is 15% non-white, it's very likely that a majority of white Swiss probably voted against it. Sounds like Switzerland is doing nothing to assuage the tribalism and suspicion between races. The feelings of resentment and division will only increase. Votes along tribal/racial lines are bad and unstable.
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I believe non-Swiss-nationals do not have the right to vote there.
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They do not. Voting in Switzerland is "citizens only". Incidentally, the Swiss government does not collect racial statistics on Swiss citizens. The racist cretin above is just hallucinating "facts" because he cannot deal with reality.
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Did it? When you consider Switzerland is 15% non-white, it's very likely that a majority of white Swiss probably voted against it.
Non-white has zero to do with being an immigrant or not. Your assumption shows some real racist bias in your understanding of national demographics.
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And you did pull all that right out of your ass. Well done, racist cretin.
Re: Sanity did prevail (Score:2)
What WAS a real divide in the results, though, is that the initiative got the most support in the regions with the fewest immigrant residents, and vice-versa. (As a reminder, non-citizen immigrants weren't able to vote on this, and anyone who has gone through the process will tell you that becoming a Swiss citizen takes a lot of time
Far Right? (Score:2)
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Why is this labeled as a "far-right" proposal? According to the summary, the SVP has the most seats in Parliament.
The SVP is the most "right-wing" party among the major parties in Switzerland. Although firmly "right-wing" I don't think it should be considered "far-right" though.
Note that Switzerland has a number of "major" parties that cover the political spectrum. Even as the largest, the SVP has "only" 30% of the seats. The second largest party has 20% and it's the left-wing SDP. Neither the left parties nor the right parties have absolute majority. The system functions by finding consensus.
Pyramid (Score:2)
>"Voters in Switzerland have rejected an unprecedented far-right proposal to cap the country's population at 10 million"
That isn't "far right". In the past it was even a "left" position. But I guess everything has to be framed in ridiculous polarizing left/right ways now. Nearly half the population voted in favor, so it is certainly nowhere near "far" anything (implying it is fringe).
It is true that most systems now are set up as a pyramid scheme that requires ever-increasing population growth to be s
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Replying because I don't have mod points. Indeed, this is not "far right" by any stretch. Thank you for pointing that out.
Re: Pyramid (Score:2)
Honest question.. (Score:2)
Re: Honest question.. (Score:2)
But a lot was made during the campaign about how the right-wing SVP argued mostly with usually left-wing talking points: sustainability, preserving natural landscapes, public transportation, etc. But ultimately, it was pretty clear that their argument of "fewer people" was simply them try
No funny here (Score:2)
disappointment