LG TVs Caught Spying Even When Offline or On Standby (theverge.com) 160
A Gamers Nexus investigation found that LG smart TVs are almost constantly logging and uploading data about owners and their homes, even while they are offline or in standby mode. "The company's TV sets scan Wi-Fi networks for nearby devices, record audio logs through their microphones, and use audio and video sampling to recognize exactly what you're watching from across the TV inputs," reports The Verge. From the report: Gamers Nexus partnered with fellow YouTubers Level1Techs and independent security researchers for the investigation, which involved testing retail LG OLEDs. Packet captures showed the TVs scanning the local area network for nearby hardware like phones or smartwatches, as well as logging location data and details of nearby Wi-Fi networks, and feeding the information back to LG Ad Solutions. Perhaps more concerningly, the TVs were capable of recording microphone audio when in standby; this continued even after the TV was disconnected from the internet, with audio files stored offline and uploaded once a connection was restored. Earlier this year, LG was found to be silently installing an adware-like app on Windows PCs that ran pop-up ads for other LG apps and even McAfee antivirus.
Water is wet (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Water is wet (Score:5, Informative)
That doesn't mean drawing outrage and attention to it isn't useful. If bad corporate behavior isn't verified and amplified, no action will be taken against it.
Re:Water is wet (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Water is wet (Score:4, Interesting)
It seems like a LOT of effort is being put into it.
Scanning for WiFi/devices seems almost beneficial to the user. It's like 'preloading connections' in case you want to display something.
Delaying the report until you're online also seems like a standard reliability feature. (ignoring the content for now.)
But other parts of the report, like "recording audio when you're playing through other devices" sounds completely illegal, and 'over the top.'
Are there a lot of EULAs that you have to click through to turn on your TV these days? Is there a shrink-wrap agreement on the box?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Usefor for grandma, who doesn't understand wifi or connections. Except that i deliberately don't give my TV my wifi password or connect its ethernet. But I can't control the neighbors leaving their guest wifi unprotected, so my data can still be exfiltrated.
Re: Water is wet (Score:3)
Hard to watch tv through the foil.
Re: (Score:3)
Re:Water is wet (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Water is wet (Score:4, Funny)
I suggest you watch the video, especially the comments from the LG Ad Services execs:
"We know who is in the LG household. We know which devices are there. We know how to extend that reach into mobile."
"Most people are on their phone while they're watching TV now. Being able to have ad experiences that are both on the big screen but also on the screen in your hand... so within an LG TV household, we can help extend the campaign footprint to the other devices in the household."
Re: (Score:3)
So if you utter 'Motherfucker' a lot in your living-room, the TV plays a Tarantino movie?
Re: Water is wet (Score:5, Interesting)
LG allows you to revoke consent to terms and policies. When you revoke consent you lose access to features, including up to all smart features.
You must accept terms of service to basically do anything, but you can for instance revoke all microphone consent and avoid any concerns of your audio being sent to LG.
Still a shitty company for putting ads on a $3000 tv.
Re: Water is wet (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: Water is wet (Score:4, Informative)
Mine's just connected to a PC. Doesn't get much smarter than that.
Re: Water is wet (Score:5, Insightful)
but you can for instance revoke all microphone consent and avoid any concerns of your audio being sent to LG.
Trusting LG to stop spying on me by telling them "stop spying on me" requires a level of trust I simply do not have. Does anyone really believe that LG will honor any of your choices?
I seriously hope no one thinks that clicking a checkbox actually turns off the LG spy features, because I'm pretty sure it doesn't.
Re: (Score:2)
I seriously hope no one thinks that clicking a checkbox actually turns off the LG spy features, because I'm pretty sure it doesn't.
Why not watch the video and find out? They did in depth analysis of this. TL;DW: It does to some extent, but not completely.
Re: (Score:3)
but you can for instance revoke all microphone consent and avoid any concerns of your audio being sent to LG.
Trusting LG to stop spying on me by telling them "stop spying on me" requires a level of trust I simply do not have. Does anyone really believe that LG will honor any of your choices?
I seriously hope no one thinks that clicking a checkbox actually turns off the LG spy features, because I'm pretty sure it doesn't.
This, they're banking on not being caught and even if they are, get a slap on the wrist and keep doing it.
Re:Water is wet (Score:5, Informative)
Yes, the EULAs for LG TVs are extensive. They present you with multiple pages of agreements and track your acceptance of each one. If an agreement is updated, they prompt you next time you turn on your TV and track your re-acceptance of that agreement. You can't use the TV without accepting, although you can generally opt out of agreements for specific features and advertising in a straightforward manner. It's been a few years since I had an LG TV but I remember being impressed by the robustness of the software simply for managing user agreements. I'm pretty sure if you're being recorded, you agreed to it.
Re: (Score:2)
>You can't use the TV without accepting
You have to accept the top two, but it is perfectly usable without clicking accept on the bottom three. The top two I don't believe (though I haven't double checked) do anything malicious. The bottom ones do.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
All the reason to scream louder. I'm all for it.
Re:Water is wet (Score:4, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Yes.
Your TV sucks up like 20-25% of its power consumption even when its turned off. Before I even got this TV, I used a device between the TV and the wall, to I turn it off when I'm not using the TV (easy with a smart speaker).
When I am using the TV I use a separate device (Chromecast), not the TV itself, so they can't spy on me through the TV itself. Also, the TV lacks Internet.
Tell me again why getting a cheap TV was a bad thing.
Re: Water is wet (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Oh but they can spy on you and they do. They record what is shown on the screen, often as periodic snapshots, to determine what you are watching. It does not matter that you use chromecast; as long as it displays on your screen, the TV Can record it.
And they sneak in and swap out a memory card when you're not home?
Re: Water is wet (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
OMG. Ok I hadn't thought of that. At least the last TV I bought for a relative was just a computer screen for media box.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
And the TV does not have my WIFI password and the MAC address is blocked on my router from both obtaining an IP address and on the outbound firewall rule.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: Water is wet (Score:2)
The summary says they were testing OLEDs, so you need multiply that price by ten. ;-)
Re: (Score:2)
you didn't really think that TV was worth $199 for 75" of 4K HDR?
The models they were testing were $3000 TVs, not your bargain basement rubbish.
Re: (Score:2)
You think this is limited to $199 TVs? The full report (yeah, I watched it) focused mainly on TVs over $1,000.
Not that a TV being $199 is an excuse for spying on people. That's bootlicking bullshit, and you should be ashamed for even hinting that it's fine because of the price of the TV.
Firewall is fire. (Score:2)
you didn't really think that TV was worth $199 for 75" of 4K HDR?
How much for the optional bezel frame made by fashion designers Faraday & Cage?
Would be a shame if a subsidized price fell behind a firewall and still functioned as the owner intended..
Nope (Score:4, Insightful)
TV can't do much in the way of spying if I don't connect it to the internet now can it ?
Run it through other hardware ( assuming you trust it ) that is internet connected and let
said hardware simply pass the audio / video to your TV.
Re:Nope (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2)
No standard consumer TVs has a built-in secret 4G/5G modems.
Wifi is in all the modern "smart" TVs", and there are plenty of companies that sell Wifi access to businesses. These can be a hidden SSID or a broadcasted one (easier detection) with known access rights. But I have zero data on if any of these TVs are paying to access that wifi loophole.
My "smart" TV pings me to connect to the Internet and warns me that my software may be "at risk" if I do not update it immediately. Tricking end-users into connecti
Re: (Score:3)
Given the price point of these TV's I suspect 4G or 5G service is going to be prohibitively expensive to enable. I suppose if they thought the total lifetime revenue they'd be able to earn by snagging your data exceeded the cost to gather it, they'd do it.
Personally, I just don't allow TV's to talk to my local network at all. If for some reason I felt the need to do so, they'd be on a separate vlan with no access to a gateway to the outside world.
Google and Amazon are already doing the same thing along wi
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
They use cheaper version of the SoC with no modem. Even the iPad has no cellular modem (in its wifi version) because of the costs savings.
Also, even if the modem was there built-in to the SoC (and not disabled by eFuses and not binned out from a smartphone batch because of defects), you still need RF transceivers, power amplifiers, filters, antennas... these are hard to hide, especially if you don't have a cellphone tower just out of your living room's window.
Re: Nope (Score:2)
Logic and profit. I used to work on the Kindle which did have cell modules in them (LTE generation mostly). And now I work on cars which also have them. They are expensive to operate when your margins are thin.
I don't have to check every TV. I only have to point out that I am not the one that made the extraordinary claim that TVs have 4G/5G connections, and the OP implied this was common practice and common knowledge.
It does not happen in standard consumer devices. It is not present in the many teardown blo
Re: (Score:3)
TV can't do much in the way of spying if I don't connect it to the internet now can it ?
The problem is the app for the same streaming service might be better on the TV than it is on the cable box. I've given up on the "upgraded" cable box I've had for about a year. The built-in apps generally suck, poorer performance then the old box that was replaced. Most of the apps stutter. The DVR playback stutters. Switch to the corresponding apps on ApplyTV or a Firestick and they are fine.
Re:Nope (Score:5, Interesting)
TV can't do much in the way of spying if I don't connect it to the internet now can it ?
The TV they looked at tried to connect to the neighbor's Wifi. So it could if it found a public (or badly configured) access point.
Re: (Score:2)
Not a lawyer.
They can scan for neighbors wifi connections, but as soon as they try to use it, they're entering a potential legal minefield (If they are caught)
It boils down to the fact that they technically need permission to use an open wifi network.
Some laws which come to mind:
1. The Federal Computer Fraud and Abuse Act (CFAA)
2. Federal Trade Commission (FTC) Act (Section 5)
3. The Video Privacy Protection Act (VPPA)
4. Trespass to Chattels
5. California Penal Code Section 502
Re: (Score:3)
FTA (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Nope (Score:5, Informative)
TV can't do much in the way of spying if I don't connect it to the internet now can it ?
And yet if you actually watch the in depth discussion, the TV very much may find its own way on the internet, even if you don't connect it to anything yourself. A good portion of the story is dedicated to those people who think using them as offline dumb TVs is okay, being wrong.
Good time to mention Plasma Bigscreen (Score:2)
https://plasma-bigscreen.org/g... [plasma-bigscreen.org]
Unfortunately it doesn't appear to be a drop in replacement for smart TVs, but you can get most of the way there regardless.
I don't trust any smartTV providers. LG may be the target of this story, but I'm sure all of them are guilty of this to various degrees.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
My mother's basement gets pr0nHub at 1080p minimum, you insensitive clod!
Re: (Score:3)
Well that's a different, and entirely solvable, problem.
Hoist the colors, ye scallywag!
Re: (Score:2)
The smart TVs run Linux. The problem is, that you need a intact secure boot chain for the CDM to certify that your device is "safe" (against you ripping the stream).
Re: Good time to mention Plasma Bigscreen (Score:2)
You can get Netflix to spit out 1080p if you setup widevine. But 4K streaming is not really practical on Linux, perhaps possible with some hacking I'm not aware of.
But Linux comes with several torrent clients. Almost like they knew a long time ago how to solve the problem of DRM and OS lock in.
Sorry Costco ... (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
I had a good opinion of them until earlier this year. I had even some amount of brand loyalty, I liked one of their monitors and got another one. Turns out the new $1800 monitor I bought came with McAffee adware ready to push into any Windows device it plugs into.
I'm not even sure who to go to at this point, I think it's only LG and Samsung manufacturing OLED panels. I think there are third parties that rebrand the panels with different cases and electronics, hopefully those stay spyware-free into the comin
I wonder whether that is just the US version (Score:5, Interesting)
In the EU, this ranges from highly illegal (under the GDPR) to actively criminal with personal penalties.
Re:I wonder whether that is just the US version (Score:4, Insightful)
in the US, this is called "monetizing" and is business as usual. If you disagree you are just a communist who likes big government regulations. Also corporations can legally buy politicians in the US. Again if you disagree you are just a communist who likes big government regulations.
Re: (Score:2)
Yes. That is why I am asking.
Re: (Score:2)
GDPR is about processing not about recording. It is illegal under the laws for covert surveillance devices that require destroying "smart" puppets that can talk to children and similar stuff you won't expect to have microphones. While the TV is advertised to have one, at least guests may have a reasonable expectation that most TVs don't have one, so there is a good case for a lawsuit.
Re: I wonder whether that is just the US version (Score:4, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
GDPR is also against collection (given that certain exceptions are not given and no user consent), but it only requires it to stop and not the devices to be destroyed. GDPR is about data processing, the other laws are about covert surveillance devices.
Re: (Score:2)
You are confused. If you record data that you are not allowed to under the GDPR, you must destroy that data and all derived data, you must inform all persons affected (within 30 days, no less, and if you do not know who they are you have a problem) and you can be punished. Some countries add personal punishment to that, not just for the organization.
The law about covert surveillance devices is a German one and it is criminal law. It forbids you to own a covert surveillance device. If you did not know it was
Re: (Score:2)
The GDPR is very mich also about recording data. You could try meaningless sophistry, but as soon as you record any data, you become the "data controller" for that data and are fully bound by the GDPR, including the question whether you are allowed to have it in the first place.
Re:I wonder whether that is just the US version (Score:5, Informative)
GDPR [europa.eu], Article 4, clause 2, my emphasis:
So your premise is in direct contradiction with the letter of the law.
Break that shit company up (Score:2)
"LG Ad Solutions" should not be a thing.
Neighbor (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
If it connects to your neighbor WiFi, even better. It will think your neighbor is watching everything and target them and their devices.
You think it has to log the wifi network and not the TV serial number?
Re: (Score:3)
I fooled 'em. I just removed the sticker with the serial number on it from the back of the tv..
Looks like Goldstar ran out of Luck. (Score:2)
McAfee Antivirus? (Score:2)
I thought McAfee was a virus in and of itself. It certainly acts that way
Re: (Score:2)
John McAfee agrees with you. And he has an excellent video on how to remove the anti virus software from your PC.
At what point someone goes to jail? (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
Because of corporate greed and "freedumbs" ...
Re: (Score:3)
Individuals can be charged for voyeurism. Why not corporations?
No voyeurism is only a crime without consent. You gave consent when you clicked "I agree" (despite not reading the thing you agreed to).
Re: (Score:3)
My VIZIO has never been connected to the Internet. When new, it asked for me to agree to terms and conditions, but allowed me to select "Later". It needs this connection to download and display terms and conditions. About once every 6 months, it gives the same popup, but with no option to bypass. A factory reset takes care of that for the next 6 months. Nothing in or on the packaging says "needs an Internet connection".
No voyeurism is only a crime without consent.
There are a few pre-teens running around in my house. Playing Captain Underpants for all
Re: (Score:2)
Who's making the dumb ones? (Score:2)
I hear wal-mart's TV's are sold at such slim margins that some might actually be at a loss for obvious advertisement reasons...
But there are plenty of commercial displays out there set up in mosaic mode that are obviously not smart...
Who's making "TV"'s that are dumb? Sure, I could get a monitor set for HDMI 1, but I don't know of many that are 55" and have even half "decent" sound
Re: (Score:2)
I have a 49" LG ultrawide monitor, which works well for movies, especially ones that are wider than 16:9.
I thought I avoided the problems by buying the "dumb" version (yes there is a "smart monitor" now in addition to "Smart TV") ...
But this one is doing some new bullshit I didn't even know monitors could do, and installing McAfee adware on any Windows device that it plugs into. Can't recommend.
I think we're fast approaching a point where the monitors are enshittified as much as the TVs.
Re: (Score:2)
Insignia sells dumb TV, at least when I had to get a TV for my 80 year old in-laws a couple of years ago. (The whole "You must have a smart TV" thing is so stupid even when privacy issues and nerds aren't taken into account. It's like mandatory smartphones, or mandatory car driving.)
I can't say I was impressed by the quality however.
Never connected (Score:2)
This isn't entirely new. Bits have been discussed before, but this seems to be a more through investigation.
This is why my LG has never been connected to the 'net, and it's always been used as a simple screen.
But still, frak LG for all this.
Why should the NSA hack you (Score:2)
When you spend money for the surveillance devices to put them into your living room?
LG Phone Home? (Score:2, Interesting)
I have a LG WebOS TV. I do not care who knows what I am watching but I would prefer not to have anyone listening to my conversations or reading transcripts of same.
I don't think I've ever displayed my login password on this TV, but I have probably displayed my wifi password, and probably other passwords. A clever program running on this TV could conceivably give away my secrets even though I've never connected it to a network.
Someone do Samsung next I guess, that's the other basically competent brand in thi
1984 (Score:2)
Profiling for adverts (Score:2)
What if LG becomes Fecebook, in the sense that they're selling you to the advertiser. What if LG start putting eSIM devices into the screens so that you get a free picture box in exchange for your preferences to sell to the advertiser? You might not notice it in the menus, but you might get product placement of some sort. It's a horrible future which I foresee.
Where is the story (Score:2)
Where is the story about how our Apple iPhones are already constantly doing the same exact thing?
Laws were broken. (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
I am tempted to physically disable the microphone.
I am far, far more tempted to not buy LG products, or any TV that requires any kind of network connections whatsoever. When I can long get a dumb TV, I will stop watching TV entirely. It won't be much of a loss.
Re:Location of microphone (Score:4, Interesting)
I am curious why a tv even has a microphone.
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
I am curious why a tv even has a microphone.
It is to issue verbal commands.
Or rather, it lets you issue verbal commands, and their on-box marketing provides that as the reason it exists.
Clearly it isn't the only reason.
I got a free firetv in some silly contest and remember it came with a remote that had a mic for the same purpose.
The remote had few other buttons, mostly it was a direction pad interface for navigating menus.
The voice recognition was far better than using the on-screen keyboard!
They didn't use a 'wakeup word' but a button to hold down
Re: (Score:2)
*click* Play apocalypse now *release*
and 3 seconds later it pulls up the movie.
This would make me feel like a boomer, desperately seeking someone to sell him those sci-fi gadgets he was promised back in the 50s...
I can't be the only one who would feel that kind of shame and embarrassment. Obviously there are people who use these features, but I don't ever see them in public or in the workplace doing it. People seem to want to keep this kind of degrading interaction behind closed doors.
Re: (Score:2)
Not one, multiple. Even if you didn't have a TV with a multi-AI client including LG's own "Hello LG" AI assistant, there's still microphones for things such as sound correction and DSP from the shitty shitty little speakers in these things.
And that's before you get into the nefarious things such as content fingerprinting.
Re: (Score:2)
You keep using that word "microphone" in a singular. No the TV doesn't have a microphone. It has microphones. Multiple. The story even covered the relative different sound qualities from the various microphones using a jailbroken LG TV.
Re: (Score:2)
Maybe you shouldn't have skipped the rest of the video then, and you could have understood the issue in its entirety
Re: So what actually was it doing? (Score:2)
What where they rooted the tv then said "sEe LoOk WhAt ThE tV iS cApAbLe Of!!!ii!11". At no point did they actually prove LG TVs indeed spy on you. I believe they do, but this video does not provide an inch of proof.
The video is a joke if you actually want to waste an hour of your life.
Re: (Score:2)
You mean other than actually demonstrate that the TV is taking logs of everything and sending 9MB of text per hour (which were the logs of everything) to a 3rd party? Yeah other than that it's nothing.
At no point did they actually prove LG TVs indeed spy on you.
They... didn't... need to. They linked to examples where LG were directly telling their partners that they are spying on you and were proud of knowing every device in your house. There's no burden of proof once the accused party comes out and flat out admits guilt. Like what do you think LG is selling to partn
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
I think I found it, but all they're talking about is mDNS and a service scan, which makes perfect sense for a modern TV.
You didn't find it. You found the thing they flat out said makes sense to do. Keep watching.
Re: (Score:3)
"Hey LG, find my remote"
"According to our surveillance records, you left it in the bathroom again. It's under the red towel."
"Thanks LG!"