EU's Microsoft Teams Alternative Draws Bad Reviews From Officials (politico.eu) 67
The European Commission has rolled out Element Pro as a self-hosted "sovereign back-up" to Microsoft Teams and the reviews aren't great. Politico reported that several officials questioned its usefulness and usability, with one calling it "absolute shit." Politico reports: "I don't understand the added value here," one official wrote on an internal staff message board, seen by POLITICO. Another described the tool as "absolute shit." A third official said that, judging matters on how well Element Pro works compared to Teams, the U.S. would "instantly win the war" if it ever decided to switch off its technology. All the officials were granted anonymity to speak freely.
The Commission hosts the Element system on its own infrastructure rather than relying on Microsoft's cloud. That gives the institution greater control over its communications data and systems. "That is not the case with Teams, where all we have is a guarantee that Microslop will not peek inside," a fourth official wrote, presumably referring to Microsoft, in internal communications viewed by POLITICO.
Element is a U.K. company whose software is used by governments and public-sector organizations in Europe. The application works much like Teams, allowing staff to hold "audio and video calls with Commission colleagues, send and receive files, and create dedicated 'rooms' for projects and conversations, much like chats and channels in M365 Teams," according to the Commission memo. "Obviously there are going to be some teething issues," said Element CEO Matthew Hodgson, adding there will always be "cognitive dissonance" when switching to a new app, if only because the "buttons" are in a different place. He noted that the United Nations and NATO also use Element Pro.
"Change is always painful, particularly if it's a switch from a much-used program like Teams."
The Commission hosts the Element system on its own infrastructure rather than relying on Microsoft's cloud. That gives the institution greater control over its communications data and systems. "That is not the case with Teams, where all we have is a guarantee that Microslop will not peek inside," a fourth official wrote, presumably referring to Microsoft, in internal communications viewed by POLITICO.
Element is a U.K. company whose software is used by governments and public-sector organizations in Europe. The application works much like Teams, allowing staff to hold "audio and video calls with Commission colleagues, send and receive files, and create dedicated 'rooms' for projects and conversations, much like chats and channels in M365 Teams," according to the Commission memo. "Obviously there are going to be some teething issues," said Element CEO Matthew Hodgson, adding there will always be "cognitive dissonance" when switching to a new app, if only because the "buttons" are in a different place. He noted that the United Nations and NATO also use Element Pro.
"Change is always painful, particularly if it's a switch from a much-used program like Teams."
Frist Psot! (Score:2, Offtopic)
Trying to keep traditions alive!
Constructive responses anyone? (Score:3)
"Absolute shit" is not quite constructive, and the CEO alleging that it's probably because the buttons are in the wrong place is also very bitter and not very helpful. And all these petty bickering useless fucks are in positions of power.
Re: (Score:2)
Slop is the fastest way to fix security issues in Excel while simultaneously breaking Paste.
Slop speedboat FTW!
Re:Constructive responses anyone? (Score:5, Informative)
Pretty much this. Element has it issues, but the major problem is that users expect it to work like Teams or whatever they were using before the switch so they complain. When our company switched to Elements a year ago the major complaint from users was that it didn't work like the previous application.
Personally I think Teams is absolute shit and I prefer Elements, but that's just my opinion
Re:Constructive responses anyone? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Constructive responses anyone? (Score:4, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2)
Personally I think Teams is absolute shit and I prefer Elements, but that's just my opinion
I have to use Teams on a daily basis, and I share your opinion regarding the software.
Re:Constructive responses anyone? (Score:5, Informative)
So it couldn't possibly be that the new software simply isn't as good and lacks important or useful features?
I've worked on government software projects before and my guess is extremely little of the allocated funds got to the contractors actually writing the software. They probably hired one or two programmers maximum and gave them a two or three months to throw something together, then said 'oh no, the money ran out' and shat out what they had percolating.
$10M spent, maybe $50K in the developers' paychecks.
I'm going to assume you don't know anything about Element or the Matrix protocol it uses here. It's an open source project that has been in development for a while. I've used it for at least 7 years and have watched it grow. Additionally, I am forced to use Teams for work and have done so for the same number of years. I can say with certainty that Teams is absolute garbage with Element able to run on multiple platforms natively with several alternative front ends available as well.
Re: (Score:2)
Exactly this.
The job the Element team is doing is absolutely awesome.
If you consider it's open-source, they are 10-20 developers compared to the size of Microsoft, and that most their users are free-loaders (myself included), it's absolutely insane they manage to get a product this good. Plus they develop an open protocol and ecosystem at the same time.
Yes, end-to-end encryption is a bit rough on the edges, but the product really rocks, and the overall open design is what any messaging app should have been
Re: (Score:3)
Why isn't EU sponsoring specific features and fixes it needs?
Or assign some of their own developers to submit pull requests.
Or hire *some Europeans* who are unemployed because their war is killing industry.
Let's hear from their project manager instead of faceless wankers and the people responsible for sales.
Re: Constructive responses anyone? (Score:2)
Yes, end-to-end encryption is a bit rough on the edges
Really? How that?
I always thought they were actually the only ones getting it right There isn't any other truly secure way of getting E2E right except for having the users comoare pubkeys. Element is the only one to do that, and I'm impressed how elegantly they did it.
Everyone else just has some crappy heuristics or "phone key" or "shared number" or whatever which at least at one point in the past got hacked.
Re: (Score:2)
I don't believe teams has e2ee at all?
In any case you typically don't need or want that in a work environment. Encryption between client and server is enough, as the org controls the server and wants to be able to view/monitor communications between its employees.
Re: (Score:3)
Teams crashes reliably whenever I start video on my laptop. I haven't noticed this very valuable feature in any other similar program so they're clearly inferior to Teams.
Re: Constructive responses anyone? (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
Not everyone shares your personal passtimes.
Re: (Score:2)
Personally I think Teams is absolute shit and I prefer Elements....
My job requires us to use Teams for our remote meetings, and it is good in some ways and complete shit in others. The meeting quality is fine, but it can't even go into full screen video.
We use Jabber for other remote meetings, and it has a full screen option. I've used Jitsi for other personal meetings, and it goes into full screen just fine.
I hated Teams at first, because I was used to Jabber. Now I am still not at all happy with Teams, but I hate it less because I've learned were most things are. It is N
Re: Constructive responses anyone? (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Teams works?
Seriously, Teams is one of the worst bits of software I have ever used. It seems like it was designed to be unspeakably awful in every way. It's quite remarkable that they made it quite so shitty.
I haven't used Element, but I'd be surprised if it was somehow worse. Teams is like the absolute zero of usability, I don't think you can go lower than that without breaking the laws of physics.
Re: (Score:2)
Any company that was using something else before teams came along also complains bitterly about teams - it's different and in many ways inferior.
I know several places that switched from slack to teams, they all universally hate teams.
Re: (Score:3)
Just give us Skype back! Sharepoint already exists and works fine in a browser (sure, even Edge if we want to go there); and I actively go out of my way to remove OneDrive every time MS shoves it back down our throats. Bam, there goes 90% of what's wrong with Teams.
Re:Constructive responses anyone? (Score:5, Insightful)
Teams is not being replaces because it is crap (it is, but still), Teams is replaces because it is from Microsoft and an order from the US administration can make it non-functional for any user (with several examples now, although MS is lying about them). Hence Sharepoint and eventually Windows have to go as well. And nothing of value will have been lost.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
We need a messaging app, halfway decent teleconferencing, and a collaborative document management platform. And I guess some form of locally mountable cloud storage, if you're a fan of giving your personal data to completely untrustworthy third parties.
And it better use open standards and interoperability.
Look, I agree with you but the normies, the 99.99% and this applies doubling to PHBs, really like the idea of a unified monolithic magic box that just works. With regards to software, they just don't understand downside to having all your eggs in one basket, aka one single vendor.
Re: (Score:2)
True. But that is why normies no not decide how to build bridges, what the details of a power-grid are or where to lay water pipe or what instructions a CPU has. If we continue to let amateurs dictate the shape of critical infrastructure, that will end in total catastrophe. The EU has seen that now, but obviously decades of doing the very wrong thing are slow to unwind.
Re: (Score:2)
Yes. I completely agree on that. The UNIX philosophy of "do one thing and do it well" is still king. Monolithic applications that do a lot _cannot_ be good. The human race is not able to handle the complexity involved. Hence the only sane thing in software (and all engineering, really) is go for components as simple as reasonably possible, and then give them interaction possibilities.
Obviously, monolithic applications are perfect if you managed to trap a major segment of your customers into a monopoly, beca
Re: (Score:3)
Yes. Unfortunately the EU has officials that are total idiots too. And, who knows, maybe Microslop had a hand in generating these reviews. Would not be the first time.
Re: (Score:2)
"Absolute shit" is not quite constructive
Of course it's constructive. It's a declaration that it is feature comparable with Teams.
Sure Element isn't Teams level (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
yeah I think there are a lot more variables involved here - any new product, even 'like for like', needs cognitive adjustment and muscle memory change from users. So change management has to be a big part of deployment. I don't know how much time or effort went into that here.
The other part is that Teams is pretty well embedded in the microsoft walled garden - so identity, integration with calendar etc all comes for 'free'. These guys are trying to stitch together a bunch of good FOSS apps into something si
Correction: (Score:2)
"Change is always painful, particularly if it's a switch from a much-used program like Teams."
"Change is always painful, particularly if it's a switch from a much-maligned program like Teams."
There FTFY.
Stockholm Syndrome? (Score:2)
What's so great about Teams again? It's improved over the years, sure, but it still isn't great. At least I can send people messages and correctly assume they actually receive them... usually. But then again I could do that with Google Talk 15 years ago. Why do we have to keep reinventing the wheel?
Re: (Score:2)
It's improved over the years, sure, ...
When did this allegedly happen? I've been using Teams for quite a few years, but I managed to miss the period when it improved.
Re: Stockholm Syndrome? (Score:2)
IME it mostly works now. It's always slow and stupid and the UI is crap, but most of the features work most of the time
Anybody remember how bad Teams was? (Score:4, Informative)
And, for example, that Teams finally got an Audio-test this years or so?
But my take is these are just people that do not want to use anything new. And they are too dumb to understand what the move away from Teams is actually about. Yes, the EU has dumb officials too, sadly.
"Absolute shit" (Score:2)
Congratulations, you have created an exact MS Teams exact replacement.
I'm been using chat/messaging apps since BBSing and AIM and I'm not sure I could deliberately design a less useful piece of junk than Team if I tried.
Re: (Score:2)
I’m old as dirt, use teams everyday. Works great for me.
Only problem I have is crap handling of multi tenants.
Confused (Score:1, Flamebait)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: Confused (Score:2)
What is the use when you have mail? (Score:2)
But looking at how it is mainly used I much prefer mail.
The messaging part is just a distraction, a waste of time as it makes you have to keep an eye on two applications.
Re: (Score:3)
The messaging part is just a distraction, a waste of time as it makes you have to keep an eye on two applications.
But how else are you supposed to get your daily dose of pet news and stories about your co-workers' kids?
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Why only waste time occasionally when technology will help you waste time constantly?
This is not a joke - some of my coworkers set up a Teams channel specifically for talking about dogs, cats, and babies. I have stayed out of it - like you, if I want human interaction I go visit the front office or generally walk around the building (or, on WFH days, go play fetch with the dogs for a few minutes). Plus, I need to get actual work done and having that channel ping constantly would not help.
And, when I REALLY
Let's Be Honest. (Score:1)
I see lots of snark towards Teams and defending Element Pro in this thread. But lets be honest; despite the fact that we love to hate on Microsoft, the EU sovereignty replacements suck donkey dicks! They truly are "absolute shit" in comparison to Microsoft 365. They are truly shit compared to Google Workspace.
You can have EU sovereignty or you can have best of breed. To date, two are not the same.
Re: (Score:3)
Say more; be specific.
What is missing or broken?
Can't replace 1000s developers and billions of $ (Score:2)
AOL Instant Messenger (Score:2)
Not the same at all? (Score:2)
Comparing Element and Teams is silly, at best. And, yes, I like the idea behind Element, but it's always a mess of changing features, long-standing usability issues that gets ignored or closed because "we moved on, surely now this isn't a problem anymore" (it still is), weird design decisions, and less basic features than you would expect.
It works as a chat barely. Doesn't scale too wel
Wisdom from Machiavelli (Score:3)
“It must be remembered that there is nothing more difficult to plan, more doubtful of success, nor more dangerous to manage than a new system. For the initiator has the enmity of all who would profit by the preservation of the old institution and merely lukewarm defenders in those who gain by the new ones. ”
--Niccolò Machiavelli, 1513
It's an Electron app. (Score:2)
I believe the issues is that for whatever reason they wrote this thing in typescript so it runs with Electron. Not only that, they are now merging the desktop client into their "web client" which mean it's a fucking web page.
With this in mind, I fully understand the nonconstructive criticisms.
Re: (Score:2)
And the problem it being an Electron app is exactly what?
Re: (Score:2)
it's slow as hell.
Re: It's an Electron app. (Score:2)
Nextcloud Talk? (Score:4, Interesting)
Nextcloud has done great work in terms of EU-Soverignty and offering credible replacements for all the pieces of the the Microsoft stack.
Nextcloud Talk works well for video conference meetings.
MS Teams is a pretty terrible piece of software. The design of it is bad, and the implementation is bad.
Any software that tries to copy it will also be bad.
If you haven't spun up a nextcloud AIO instance yet for your organization(s), you should try it out.
"Microslop" (Score:2)
Anyone who uses terms like "Microslop" or "Micro$oft" or any other pejorative instantly loses credibility. They're speaking emotionally, not objectively. They show their bias.
Now, do I disagree with some of the arguments against using Microsoft products? No, not necessarily. It is a valid concern that you're giving up control of your data (and likely privacy) when you use Microsoft's (or any other company's) cloud-hosted offerings.
But using insulting terms generally means they're looking for reasons to disl
Re: "Microslop" (Score:2)
On the other hand, Microsoft's public annoyal about the term "Microslop" has made it so, so much more fun to use anywhere their management might become aware of it.
What about Jitsi? (Score:2)
It seems to me that Jitsi is a good start toward meeting EU needs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
It's probably missing some of needed functionality, but starting with a working core of FOSS and extending it would seem better than making the proprietary private-sector vendor mistake yet again. For a government to have the kind of autonomy they really should have, I think FOSS is the only reasonable way to go.
Any government serious about autonomy should be doing its best to avoid critical software from pr
"I don't understand the added value here" (Score:2)
How Bad is Bad (Score:2)
Considering that Teams is the worst app I've ever had to use at work, this is really quite an accomplishment. Microsoft proves again that they are the market leader. In garbage.
Amazing (Score:2)