San Francisco's Car Crime Has Plunged. How Much Credit Does Flock Deserve? (npr.org) 90
Car thefts in San Francisco are down almost 59% for the first eight months of 2026 compared with the same months in 2022, according to analysis of police department statistics by NPR's Planet Money — and car break-ins are down more than 82%.
"San Francisco's law enforcement leaders tell us that greater use of surveillance technology — including a controversial, AI-powered license plate camera system made by Flock Safety — has been crucial to this drop in car crime." How much credit does Flock actually deserve...? [In July of 2022, San Francisco District Attorney] Jenkins began taking a more aggressive approach to prosecuting people accused of crimes. Meanwhile, the SFPD beefed up its tactics to fight car thefts and break-ins. In 2023, for example, the police increased patrols in tourist areas known for car break-ins and used "bait cars" to catch and build cases against organized car burglars. But, Jenkins says, "one of the most important factors" behind the drop in crime came when the city introduced new crime-fighting technology. In March 2024, San Francisco voters approved Proposition E, which, among other provisions, made it easier for SFPD to use drones and high-tech surveillance cameras. That same month, the SFPD began installing Flock cameras in strategic locations... In a statement to Planet Money, a spokesperson for the SFPD said, "ALPR has been instrumental in driving down crime in San Francisco. These tools enable our officers to identify crime vehicles with precision, and ALPR is assisting in reducing crimes that were previously very challenging to solve, like auto burglaries."
Jenkins described how Flock cameras and drones can work together to catch suspected criminals. In one case the SFPD publicized, the department says Flock cameras spotted a moving vehicle linked to an auto burglary the previous day and alerted officers. Officers deployed a drone, which flew in from above and then began recording suspects in real time as they smashed windows and stole luggage out of a parked SUV. The police then moved in and arrested them. They can do all this, Jenkins says, "without putting innocent people in danger with dangerous police chases." Meanwhile, the surveillance system creates an evidence trail that [Jenkins'] office can use to prosecute suspected criminals... Jenkins also believes high-tech surveillance helps deter crime, although that's harder to prove...
The most ambitious study of Flock's system so far is a recent one by University of South Carolina crime researchers Ian Adams and Scott Mourtgos. They analyzed data from 216 law enforcement agencies that introduced Flock cameras, comparing crime trends with places that had not adopted Flock. They found that deploying Flock cameras was associated with an 11% drop in car thefts in the first year. This is only one study, and it has yet to be peer-reviewed. It's also not a randomized controlled trial, the gold standard for finding the actual causal effect of something. Other factors, beyond Flock, could still help explain the decline.
That study attempted to control for variables, the article points out — like how San Francisco's decline coincided with a broader drop in crime across American cities as America emerged from the pandemic...
But the article also notes another worry shared by "countless citizens" and political leaders. Are these systems handing too much power to law enforcement to "invade our privacy, trace our whereabouts, and stomp on our civil liberties."
"San Francisco's law enforcement leaders tell us that greater use of surveillance technology — including a controversial, AI-powered license plate camera system made by Flock Safety — has been crucial to this drop in car crime." How much credit does Flock actually deserve...? [In July of 2022, San Francisco District Attorney] Jenkins began taking a more aggressive approach to prosecuting people accused of crimes. Meanwhile, the SFPD beefed up its tactics to fight car thefts and break-ins. In 2023, for example, the police increased patrols in tourist areas known for car break-ins and used "bait cars" to catch and build cases against organized car burglars. But, Jenkins says, "one of the most important factors" behind the drop in crime came when the city introduced new crime-fighting technology. In March 2024, San Francisco voters approved Proposition E, which, among other provisions, made it easier for SFPD to use drones and high-tech surveillance cameras. That same month, the SFPD began installing Flock cameras in strategic locations... In a statement to Planet Money, a spokesperson for the SFPD said, "ALPR has been instrumental in driving down crime in San Francisco. These tools enable our officers to identify crime vehicles with precision, and ALPR is assisting in reducing crimes that were previously very challenging to solve, like auto burglaries."
Jenkins described how Flock cameras and drones can work together to catch suspected criminals. In one case the SFPD publicized, the department says Flock cameras spotted a moving vehicle linked to an auto burglary the previous day and alerted officers. Officers deployed a drone, which flew in from above and then began recording suspects in real time as they smashed windows and stole luggage out of a parked SUV. The police then moved in and arrested them. They can do all this, Jenkins says, "without putting innocent people in danger with dangerous police chases." Meanwhile, the surveillance system creates an evidence trail that [Jenkins'] office can use to prosecute suspected criminals... Jenkins also believes high-tech surveillance helps deter crime, although that's harder to prove...
The most ambitious study of Flock's system so far is a recent one by University of South Carolina crime researchers Ian Adams and Scott Mourtgos. They analyzed data from 216 law enforcement agencies that introduced Flock cameras, comparing crime trends with places that had not adopted Flock. They found that deploying Flock cameras was associated with an 11% drop in car thefts in the first year. This is only one study, and it has yet to be peer-reviewed. It's also not a randomized controlled trial, the gold standard for finding the actual causal effect of something. Other factors, beyond Flock, could still help explain the decline.
That study attempted to control for variables, the article points out — like how San Francisco's decline coincided with a broader drop in crime across American cities as America emerged from the pandemic...
But the article also notes another worry shared by "countless citizens" and political leaders. Are these systems handing too much power to law enforcement to "invade our privacy, trace our whereabouts, and stomp on our civil liberties."
I quit stealing cars (Score:5, Funny)
Because I can't afford the parking in SF.
Re: (Score:1, Offtopic)
Re: I quit stealing cars (Score:2)
Re: (Score:1, Flamebait)
Less targets means less of that type of crime.
Re: (Score:2)
The feds cracking down on illegal immigration May had some effect as
Re: (Score:1, Troll)
What we really need to do is incarcerate the permanently homeless. Force them to work, even if it's weed-picking on c
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
So basically create a permanent underclass of indentured servants...
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
So, steal parking. DUH!
Re: I quit stealing cars (Score:2)
Some of the multi units I was looking at investing into include multiple parking space rentals that documented revenue of $250-$300 a month. This was over by GG park and central sunset, not exactly high traffic commercial, really residential and a few major landmarks like hospitals and of course the more interesting tourist spots for GG park.
None (Score:5, Informative)
People do not stop stealing cars because of cameras. But I guess Flock is desperate for some good press, so we get propaganda lies now.
Re: (Score:2)
This, 100%.
So, according to this, car thieves aren't stealing cars in areas that have Flocks. And, I bet the thieves are searching the area for Flocks. Great... what about the areas that don't have Flocks?
Hell, you could just throw a shirt or a flannel over the Flock and carry on.
But how do you know? - more data needed (Score:1)
People do not stop stealing cars because of cameras. But I guess Flock is desperate for some good press, so we get propaganda lies now.
So #1, I don't know...you could be right, but I am neither confident you're wrong or right. #2, even if it's not a deterrent, arrests are. If they drive a stolen car by a flock camera and it helps police find them and take them off the street for a few years, in a way, it has stopped them from stealing...at least until they get out, at bare minimum.
The problem with flock for me is that I have no data to weigh the pros vs the cons. There's some problematic cops breaking the law with them. However, I
If you include Police misuse of Flock? (Score:2)
659,880 thefts to 69 documented Flock abuses (Score:2)
If you include MANY times police misused Flock cameras, does the overall crime rate go up, or down?
Googling there were 659,880 vehicles stolen in the last year alone and a total of 69 recorded instances of Flock abuse. Now, that obviously doesn't tell us how many were thwarted nor how many police abused Flock and weren't caught...but this is why I want number and enough of this stupid Flock emotional melodrama. Sounds to me like the Flock downsides are a bit overblown...but...I also don't know how to quantify the upsides.
Re: 659,880 thefts to 69 documented Flock abuses (Score:2)
The lack of transparency makes me suspect the documentation of police abuse is under reported.
What ratio do you want? (Score:2)
The lack of transparency makes me suspect the documentation of police abuse is under reported.
I'm sure it is...but by how much. 10x? Sure, I'd believe that. 100x?...no, not really. I don't believe 6,900 police officers are stalking their exes. Most just want to do their job and go home, like anyone else. Most are happily married, boring civil servants. Most cops don't even have very stressful or dangerous lives. Most are working in the burbs or small towns and dealing with minor crimes or mundane cop duties...not the exciting stuff you see on TV.
The reported number is a nearly 100,000x
Re: (Score:2)
The fact that 659,880 vehicles were stolen last year doesn't automatically lead to a suspension of personal privacy and the granting of authority to police officers beyond what they appear to be able to responsibly wield. I don't accept hand waving past the lack of oversight, transparency, and consequences to those who abuse their authority in the hopes that some meaningful portion of the 659,880 vehicle thefts are closed or reduced in future years.
It was 850,708 in 2024. That 23% drop had little to do with
Re: (Score:2)
So #1, I don't know...you could be right, but I am neither confident you're wrong or right. #2, even if it's not a deterrent, arrests are. If they drive a stolen car by a flock camera and it helps police find them and take them off the street for a few years, in a way, it has stopped them from stealing...at least until they get out, at bare minimum.
If they break into a car and the police look at the footage on the dashcam and see that they've kept their license plate out of view, but they are able to cross-correlate it with other cameras and figure out the plate number, then figure out where they drove that car, where it ended up parked, who got out, where they went, etc., then it can make arrests possible where it was not possible previously, making it *massively* more likely to be able to solve the crime.
The problem becomes when it turns into "show
There's different types of video (Score:4, Interesting)
Teslas, BMW's, Rivian, and Mercedes have cameras all around the vehicle that are always on, and if a security incident is detected they will save the video from a few minutes before the incident to right after the incident.
A quick search shows that Tesla theft (by example) is 90% to 99% lower than the national average, and I assume the other types are similar.
People do not stop stealing cars because of cameras. But I guess Flock is desperate for some good press, so we get propaganda lies now.
People do not steal cars because of *flock* cameras, they are always on, and the data is available to law enforcement with no oversight.
Personal vehicles save video locally, and it's only used when an actual crime is committed.
I'm in favor of public surveillance that's kept local to whichever user, in the manner of a ring doorbell video (if that were kept local, which it is not). It prevents crime without violating rights - the burglar shouldn't have been on the property to begin with.
This leads to an interesting thought. Flock is a company that keeps videos across the country and tracks vehicles, and soon to include facial recognition. Flock cameras would be entirely acceptable if the video were "owned" by someone local to the actual camera, so that police would have to query the owner to get a video.
I'm not sure who the "owner" would be in this case, but hypothetically if the camera were on the telephone pole outside of a house, if we consider the video owned by the property owner then the possibility of a rights violation would go down precipitously.
Just a thought, and an under-developed one.
We need new ideas to help solve new problems, here is one to chew on.
Theft reduced by other economies getting stronger? (Score:2)
As I suggested in 2011 in this video, theft may rise if people lose faith in the exchange economy. Other interwoven economies of subsistence, gift, exchange, and planned could also alternatively take up the slack if they were improves -- instead of people becoming more inclined to crime.
"Five Interwoven Economies: Subsistence, Gift, Exchange, Planned, and Theft"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
"This video presents a simplified education model about socioeconomics and technological change. It discusses five
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
This is all about getting us to have warm fuzzy feelings for our Flock protectors. Probably so we are willing to report the vile criminals who vandalize them to steal the valuable metals and precious SSD, HDD and memory components inside.
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
The main problem is that the police does not really care about cars getting stolen.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Funny how that goes, isn't it? The thing is propaganda is a lie. It targets emotions (here the feeling of being unsafe) and tries to amplify them and then bind them to something the propaganda-maker sells. Works the same for tooth-paste, cameras or Fascism: The aim is to bypass the rational assessment of things. And, sadly, it works on a _lot_ of people because generally speaking people cannot fact-check for shit in the first place and this emotional approach bypasses what small skills they may have in that
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
"... ALPRs ... can be a good tool to solve crimes ..."
A gas chamber can be a good tool to prevent crimes.
"The bookkeeping is not there to ensure this technology is used responsibly ..."
No such thing as responsible violation of constitutional rights.
Drones (Score:2)
That's a good idea, but it doesn't really need Flock.
gas chambers would work too (Score:5, Insightful)
Gas chambers would also lower car crime, doesn't mean it's ethical. A surveillance state certainly has *some* benefits, Hitler did some good things for the German people.
Perhaps of interest (Score:5, Interesting)
So that's the problem with the coalition party (Score:2, Troll)
The Republican party is basically composed of three groups. You've got the racists, you've got the religious lunatics and you have the ultra wealthy who want to screw us all over. That makes them a lot more cohesive and it's less obvious when there is corruption because being corrupt doesn't conflict with the goals of any of those three groups.
Re: (Score:2)
San Francisco has good mass transit, so ALPR's don't affect them as much (yet) as in car dependent cities where people don't have as much freedom in how they get around.
Someone should advise Ho and Chandler et al that Flock wants to use facial recognition to track people because that will include bicyclists and people taking mass transit!
Re: (Score:2)
San Francisco has good mass transit
It has basically functional mass transit, but last time I lived there my commute was 15 minutes by car or 1 hour and 15 minutes by two buses linked by subway. I could probably have walked faster. Now I would dread parking in either neighborhood but then it was feasible.
Re: (Score:2)
The SF Democratic machine is all in on Flock [missionlocal.org]. That might have something to do with the Flock being in the SF Democratic Party.
The more I hear about this so-called "SF Democratic Party," the more I'm convinced they don't speak for the majority of SF voters. Seriously. They seem to be some strange, centrist organization that no voters belong to and nobody knows where they get their money from.
Re: (Score:2)
So Republicans join the Democrats. Local media calls these people "moderates" - no, it doesn't make much sense, just the accepted code word. Most of the current batch are funded by more or less reactionary tech billionaires. (The older set are less, the newer ones more.)
So yeah. You have to read past the label. Democrats here are such a big tent that we let Republicans run things a lot of the time if they wear a fake mustache and mumble
ICE and National Guard (Score:4, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2)
You think illegal immigrants are doing all the car thefts?
Re: ICE and National Guard (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
Re: ICE and National Guard (Score:2)
Classification (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Definitely yes in this scenario... Maybe it should make more noise... Damn I am blaming the three here. OK, I will shut up.
Re: (Score:2)
We won't call it armed robbery, we'll call it a simple assault, stuff like that.
On the surface of it stuff like that seems nefarious, but in reality very few of these conspiracies stand up to scrutiny. Mainly because the thing one is a statistics of is also included in other statistics so it's trivial to see the co-contribution of such a renaming in official figures, and yet it never actually appears.
It's like the people who complain that unemployment is being played with because they stopped counting people who gave up looking for work, except there has always been 6 different measure
How about Open Source and auditable? (Score:3)
I can envision a system where they ask a court to approve releasing footage from an area where a real crime occurred. The investigator identifies vehicles and people of interest, then an open source algorithm tracks where they came from and where they went, without exposing the rest of the population to a dragnet search. The results would be registered as evidence in the case.
We've seen that officers cannot be trusted with the keys themselves. Flock and other corporations shouldn't be able to access the footage. It should be stored encrypted where only the courts have the ability to decrypt it. Then we should pass laws for data retention periods that are reasonable(perhaps no more than 1 month).
who watches the watcher? (Score:2)
that's a sensible approach except ... who trusts the judge? this would ofc prevent the average cop from stalking his ex or doing dirty side jobs or favors (described with "lol" or "sadfasf" in the "reason" field) but there is a non negligible group of people to which a judge would hardly say no, or even ask pertinent questions. you would be still in a surveillance state. the more meaningful question is do you want all people to be under permanent surveillance?
i would only answer yes if and only if there is
Re: (Score:2)
That's not as big a deal because when there's a warrant your lawyer can challenge the warrant, and if you later win your appeal then they usually have to throw out all the evidence acquired after that, unless it was 100% independent. Usually everything else would follow from the result of that search. So it's the interests of the smart cops, court clerks, judges, prosecutors, etc., to make sure the dumb cop doesn't screw it up. Notice how that is independent of if they all would prefer to support the cop do
feel good (Score:2)
That's not as big a deal because yadda yadda
dm me for a brand new bridge offer, unbeatable price.
You're not going to get a nationwide ban or anything, so your proposed question is absurd.
it is a fundamental question. and it affects millions of people. that you consider an absurdity to even to entertain it because you believe that democracy is unable to even produce or allow a particular answer (and i even could agree with that) just shows what exactly the problem is with any mechanism you might devise for that same democracy to limit abuse: it is flawed from the get go. if you are unable to stop mass surveillance then by definition you ar
Re: (Score:2)
An issue with this is if say a drive-by shooting happens on Friday night and they have potential Flock footage to identify the vehicle and catch the shooters. Can they get legit judge approval in five minutes, or do they need to wait until Monday to get the judge's okay just to find it in a ditch after car thieves did their shooting and ditched it?
Many of the abuses are individual officers trying to find info on significant others or stalking. What about a system where an officer's request for Flock info re
Re: (Score:2)
Based on your user id number, I'm pretty sure you already know that there is a judge on call to approve warrants 24/7 unless you're waaaaaaaaaay out in the middle of nowhere. And in a town that small, they can knock on the judges door.
Three cops "on the hook" is exactly the same as zero cops "on the hook," which is something you also already know.
Pathetic fake hand-wringing.
71% incorrect (Score:2)
One city found that Flock was incorrect 71% of the times it identified felonies. But they did claim they installed the flock cameras using non-standard methods to avoid certain privacy concerns.
Flock likes to claim a 99+% accuracy under 'ideal' concerns.
San Francisco District Attorney Jenkins (Score:2)
is not a person that can be trusted. She has multiple counts of prosecutorial misconduct and the CA State Bar put her in a mandatory diversion program. She also nepotically hired/promoted Monifa Willis all the way to Chief of Staff of the San Francisco District Attorney's Office. Monifa Willis has absolutely no legal or law experience or education.
Flock cameras have nothing to do with the decrease while the increased patrols have everything to do with the reduction. Brooke Jenkins is a moron.
Re: (Score:2)
For the record below is what the State Bar dinged Jenkins on. tldr; The prior DA's office let a guy with 73 felonies and 34 misdemeanors in S.F. alone be allowed to be free before his last crime which was armed carjacking and then killing two people in his getaway attempt. Jenkins emailed the criminal's record using her city gov email to outside address.
https://thevoicesf.org/exclusi... [thevoicesf.org]
Mission Local
"The subject line of Jenkins’ email was “Troy McAllister Police reports.” It contained thr
Re: (Score:2)
Just because she was a "better" option than the previous person, of which you have given exactly one example, does not mean she deserves to stick around. Maybe there are no better options in the running right now. But if Brooke Jenkins is really your best option, that's kinda sad.
Re: (Score:2)
But if Brooke Jenkins is really your best option, that's kinda sad.
Why, because somebody threw some mud on the internet, and when you upvoted it you felt Virtuous?
As somebody just explained, you were full of shit when you were claiming the bar diversion was because of corruption or incompetence; rather, it was the whistleblower activity described above!
As for "prosecutorial misconduct," every prosecutor who has been at the job for a few years has a few cases with such a ruling. In that case, she successfully prosecuted Daniel Gudino for the murder of his own mother. In the
Re: (Score:2)
Wow. Wrong and stupid.
Practically, none... (Score:2, Interesting)
Flock and similar systems can only and track against persons following the law.
A car stolen by someone wearing a generic hoodie and glasses will not be identified by that Flock camera. Only the vehicle will be.
Once out of a Flock area, a simple plate swap (if the alternate plate is from a Flock-less area preferably from similar vehicle) and Flock is useless assuming that the car won't continue to be used with any visually unique identifying features such as damage, stickers, window tinting or paint.
The car
Why does it have to be Flock or nothing (Score:3)
How about the false positives? (Score:2)
According to flock's own press releases their OCR accuracy is 96%. This means that the accuracy of reading a six character plate number is ~78%. This is likely reflecting the best case scenario and not real life where lighting, dirt, motion, weird angles, and obstacles are all degrading the accuracy.
So besides the couple of criminals that they caught, can we please hear about all the people who got stopped, potentially arrested and perhaps even had guns drawn on them? Also are they saying that they would h
Re: (Score:2)
According to flock's own press releases their OCR accuracy is 96%. This means that the accuracy of reading a six character plate number is ~78%.
What makes you think the 96% number is per character as opposed to per plate?
Re: (Score:2)
What makes you think the 96% number is per character as opposed to per plate?
Plates can have variable number of characters, which makes it nonsensical to define OCR accuracy per plate. So, OCR accuracy of 96% must be per character. Flock have not defined what they mean by OCR accuracy as far as I can find. In such case the standard per-character approach to calculating accuracy applies.
Re: (Score:2)
Plates can have variable number of characters, which makes it nonsensical to define OCR accuracy per plate
That's absurd, not even 1% of the population has such brittle thinking as you.
In other contexts there are OCR stats at all levels, per character, per word, per page. No, you can't define "page" satisfactorily, but that doesn't stop it from being included in statistics.
Did you know that printers are even rated on "pages per minute?" Everybody knows it depends on the page, but it doesn't stop them from using the metric.
Are you sure you're really this stupid? I think you're trying to pull a fast one.
Update: I read the article (Score:3)
Yes I know, this is Slashdot and you are supposed to comment without reading the article. Well I did read the article and wouldn't you know it:
Jenkins began taking a more aggressive approach to prosecuting people accused of crimes. Meanwhile, the SFPD beefed up its tactics to fight car thefts and break-ins. In 2023, for example, the police increased patrols in tourist areas known for car break-ins and used "bait cars" to catch and build cases against organized car burglars.
The Flock cameras were not the only variable that changed. By the looks of it it isn't even the most significant variable. Nothing in the articles speaks of what each of the variables contributed to the final 11% reduction. All of the evidence is quotes of people with vested interest saying "Trust me bro, it is the cameras". Well in that case all I can say is "Trust
Ambulance Positioning (Score:2)
There certainly is a lot of discussion on how criminals should be caught.
Perhaps in the distant future we will be better at understanding how a person becomes a criminal.
The sorrowful case of Christa Pike has been in the news in recent days. To summarise, she was on death row in Tennessee, and on the day of execution, she was given the prescribed lethal injection, twice, and survived. She is currently in hospital.
She was sentenced to death when she was 18, having tortured and murdered a young woman (togethe
none (Score:2)
happened to me (Score:2)
My car has been the victim of a smash and grab precisely once in my life. It was parked for an evening directly across the street from a San Francisco police station.
I live in SF and this isn't exactly honest . . . (Score:2)
Proposition 36 passed November 5, 2024: Ten years later, California voters overwhelmingly pa
Or uber or waymo help (Score:2)
Just visited San Fran and any google or anything states steer clear of driving in the city. Take uber, waymo or whatever is the message. Safer, maybe or people know better than to deal with all the crap. Their cvs was locked down like crazy, looks like everything is in a refrigerator section except it was just locked down. Dumb crap that shouldnâ(TM)t be was. That place needs help.
If pandemic is a likely cause (Score:2)
then why didn't they just use pre-pandemic as the baseline instead?
It does seem like there is intent to mislead here.
More like price of fuel. (Score:2)
And car fuel price exploded. I think this is a far more likely correlation.
ALPR Mattered, Not That it was Flock (Score:2)
ALPR cameras properly implemented and used by trustworthy people can do the public good. They can track stolen vehicles, follow hit-and-run suspects, help search for missing persons, and remove armed police from some enforcement actions (speeding, parking in transit lanes, etc.). The problem is when UNtrustworthy people have access to that data, be they demented police officers or ICE, the actual utility of the technology is overshadowed by the infringements by the shitheads.
Any ALPR vendor could have parti
Re: (Score:2)
You wrote, "ALPR cameras properly implemented and used by trustworthy people can do the public good"
Fine. Now show me the "proper implementation" and the "trustworthy people". Do I have to post links to all the stories of cops stalking girlrfiend, wives, and anyone else? Or the one today, of someone arrested that was discharged, and is suing?
Re: (Score:2)
Proper Implementation:
* Parking access systems: A TON of places, public and private.
* SFMTA's bus-mounted ALPR that automatically sends parking citations to vehicle owners whose vehicles are parked transit-only and bike-only lanes.
* Speed cameras: https://www.iihs.org/research-... [iihs.org]
* Red light cameras: https://www.iihs.org/research-... [iihs.org]
Trustworthy People: Literally almost everyone hired to operate the systems because checks and balances exist for most people with access. All we have to do is actually apply the