Mozilla is Calling Out Microsoft for Forcing Edge on Users (pcmag.com) 87
"Mozilla reps tell me they've met with Microsoft about their concerns," reports PC Magazine, "but that the company wasn't responsive."
"They'll do the minimum the law requires to respect user choice," explains Kush Amlani, Mozilla's counsel overseeing global competition and regulatory work... Mozilla recently marked 100 days since it released an 87-page report detailing the ways in which Microsoft pushes Edge on Windows PCs.... One example is how Windows often displays a "Let's finish setting up your PC" pop-up after an OS update. This screen has an enabled-by-default option to "use recommended browser settings," which makes Edge the default web browser.
However, that screen doesn't appear in Europe. European laws now force Microsoft to make Windows more respectful of user choices. For instance, in European countries, the Start menu opens links in your default web browser rather than in Edge, as it does everywhere else. Amlani says Mozilla wants Microsoft to release the European version of Windows to the rest of the world. However, he thinks this will require government action. As he puts it, "Microsoft can do better when it's forced."
The last line of the article sums up Mozilla's main point. "No one should have to fight their OS this hard on something as simple as a browser preference."
However, that screen doesn't appear in Europe. European laws now force Microsoft to make Windows more respectful of user choices. For instance, in European countries, the Start menu opens links in your default web browser rather than in Edge, as it does everywhere else. Amlani says Mozilla wants Microsoft to release the European version of Windows to the rest of the world. However, he thinks this will require government action. As he puts it, "Microsoft can do better when it's forced."
The last line of the article sums up Mozilla's main point. "No one should have to fight their OS this hard on something as simple as a browser preference."
Microsoft History. (Score:3, Insightful)
As he puts it, "Microsoft can do better when it's forced."
As Microsoft history puts it..”BAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Suck on deez anti trusts.”
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Speaking of history, I can't believe this Rick & Morty reference is ten yeas old:
What is my purpose? [reddit.com]
Edge? Is that a browser? (Score:3)
It seems so. Although Netcraft confirms it is (ahem) a rounding error.
This post may contain historical references to Microsoft press releases you are not aware of.
Europe? (Score:4, Informative)
Yeah it does. I mean we have a lot of other things that are blocked in Europe but we very much do still get the "Finish setting up your PC" window during feature updates. Maybe they meant EU and maybe the windows is locale dependent? I do have mine set to English UK despite being in an EU country.
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Sure you have "Finish setting up your PC" - but are the "recommended browser settings" to use Edge as the default? TFS says no.
Note: It might still say "use recommended browser settings", but does it replace your previously default Chrome/Firefox/whatever with Edge?
Lastly: Are you using the EU version of Windows - I'm not sure how you tell the difference, or which one your OEM may have installed for you. Locale might have an effect, but there used to be a whole different edition of windows for the EU to ens
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Sure you have "Finish setting up your PC" - but are the "recommended browser settings" to use Edge as the default? TFS says no.
TFS is wrong for my setup. There are 3 windows as part of "Finish setting up your PC" after every feature update. One of them is recommended browser settings called "Enhance your browsing experience", one of them is a Onedrive nag, sorry I mean "Keep your files more secure in the cloud", and the other is a fucking Office advert oh sorry again, I keep misreading "Achieve more with Microsoft 365".
I very much do get them, so I wonder if it is skipped for PCs set to a locale in the EU, because it's certainly no
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The win 10 versions of N used different activation codes too, so it was impossible to do an in-place upgrade from one to the other.
I've heard 11 is the same but I can't confirm that.
There is no need to do any "upgrade" from one to the other as the difference between N versions of Windows and standard versions of Windows are simply moved to the System > Optional Features.
Interestingly I bought a Windows PC from within the EU, and I live in the EU, and my version does *not* indicate it's an N SKU.
Is this news? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Is this news? (Score:5, Informative)
The problem is, Microsoft addresses the Edge concerns by saying "But Edge isn't in a monopoly position. Chrome is still more popular". But when it does that it wants you to ignore what got in trouble the first time around.
Back in the 90s/early 2000s , Microsoft didn't get so badly busted that it almost got split apart by the regulators because IE was a monopoly. Microsoft got in trouble because it abused its windows monopoly to illegally obtain its browser monopoly at the expense of Netscape.
Its doing the *exact* same thing again. I am seeing countless, mostly elderly, folks using Edge because they dont know how to convince windows to let them use chrome by default. Its actually harder to find those defaults than it was back in the 90s/early 2000s.
Its just they are brazen about it now, becuase they know the current admin wont go after them, for the same reason George Bush ordered the justice department to stop going after microsoft back in the day.
Which won't make a lick of difference to the EU, if it decides it wants to impose silly-money fines again. But the EU can only regulate EU business, so microsoft is playing different rules.
So we should ask ourselves, why do europeans get a choice and not us.
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I am seeing countless, mostly elderly, folks using Edge because they dont know how to convince windows to let them use chrome by default.
So they should prefer the Google Monopoly instead of the Microsoft monopoly? WTF?
Also, I'm tired of hearing about poor old grandma and grandpa and their computer problems. I'm 72. Is that "elderly" enough for you? I removed Edge from my computer. I removed a lot of the stupid pointless shit hat Microsoft puts into Windows. You can too. It's not hard. If I can figure it out, so can anyone else. Edge is just a shitty knock-off of shitty Google Chrome anyway.
Unfortunatlely, due to some sort of r
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Monopolies aren't about marketshare. It's all in how you use it. That people prefer Chrome even while it eats all their RAM really says something about the other browser choices. Especially when Edge is built on Chromium, just with a worse UI.
And by the way, "elderly" is usually referring to mindset in this case. Sounds like you're too young in that sense to catch on. We don't have a word for when it happens to Gen Alpha, who grew up on mostly touch interfaces and multiple OSes on different device type
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No. They should prefer to have a choice. They don't because microsoft actively makes it diffiicult for non technical people to have that choice.
I don't understand how this is an argument. We aren't discussing your preferences.
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So we should ask ourselves, why do europeans get a choice and not us.
Because capitalist America hates capitalism and socialist Europe loves capitalism.
Re: Is this news? (Score:2)
"The problem is, Microsoft addresses the Edge concerns by saying "But Edge isn't in a monopoly position. Chrome is still more popular". But when it does that it wants you to ignore what got in trouble the first time around."
A bigger issue is that it's irrelevant. Antitrust is not just about monopolies.
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>"I am seeing countless, mostly elderly, folks using Edge because they dont know how to convince windows to let them use chrome by default."
But using Chrome is no better for our ecosystem. They are both Chromium and ultimately Google-controlled. They both harm web-standards, freedom, security, and privacy. So that would still be a lose for everyone.
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So we should ask ourselves, why do europeans get a choice and not us.
Because Americans are dumb. Just look at who we vote into public office.
Worse is how they are pushing it onto Android. (Score:4, Interesting)
Microsoft is selling business onto their software stack in the name of security. Making it so in order to access emails you have to use the outlook app, and making that app block copy/paste, and refuse to open links in anything but Edge.
Of course, people will instead access their mail through a secure browser, because no one wants Edge, so MS is trying to push businesses to lock other browsers out of outlook.com.
Use Rufus (Score:4, Informative)
Use Rufus to make your install media and you won't see those "finish setting up" screens and you can disable online accounts.
https://rufus.ie/en/ [rufus.ie]
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I don't want to reinstall Windows.
I'd rather use an app that disables those features without fully reinstalling my computer's operating system.
Re: Use Rufus (Score:2)
Good luck finding one that lets you get rid of that online account requirement.
Re:Use Rufus (Score:5, Informative)
The thing you are looking for is the Group Policy Editor. There are Group Policies that can disable the prompts to use Microsoft accounts and the ability to use OneDrive or Windows AI features, the hook Bing has in Windows Search (i.e. no more searching in the start menu and having it list web sites before the file or application you wanted) and all the "consumer experience" features in non-Enterprise Windows. There are a few GPO settings that get ignored unless you're on Windows Enterprise or Education. Most of them related to Microsoft Datamining.
It is also possible to transition a Microsoft account back to a local one without losing your Profile. This is done in Settings > Accounts > Your Info in Windows 11.
gpedit.msc is normally only available to non-Home Windows SKUs, but it is unlockable with a tiny bit of Powershell:
Get-ChildItem @( /online /norestart /add-package:"$_" }
"C:\Windows\servicing\Packages\Microsoft-Windows-GroupPolicy-ClientTools-Package*.mum",
"C:\Windows\servicing\Packages\Microsoft-Windows-GroupPolicy-ClientExtensions-Package*.mum"
) | ForEach-Object { dism.exe
Open an Administror-elevated Powershell or Terminal session, paste that in and even your $200 Acer vomit-grade notebook can work the way you want it again.
The reason we need GPOs for this stuff is that Microsoft's software updates will occasionally re-set registry changes. If the changes are made with GPOs, the settings get reapplied and overwrite changes no matter what state Windows is in. This is particularly annoying for stuff like OneDrive, CoPilot and Edge preferences. You either have to regularly re-run scripts to alter the registry to the state you like it and hope nothing makes a structural change to where those settings live, or you set a GPO.
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"Finish setting up" screens are pushed with every windows feature update. You very much do still get them when you use rufus to make install media, you just skip the very first one you see.
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Not just the browser (Score:5, Insightful)
Microsoft tries its best to force you to use Edge to open a pdf. If I have Adobe Reader set as my default pdf reader, that should be the end of it. Nope. Certain updates have reverted to using Edge so I, and others at my place of work, have to go in and reset the default.
Once someone has something set as their default, it should never be tampered with unless it's done by the user.
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Once someone has something set as their default, it should never be tampered with unless it's done by the user.
I feel like the government might step in with a lawsuit about that.
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I've *never* seen Edge set as the default PDF reader without resetting all of Edges defaults including browsing (and that is done via the screen TFA is talking about). One thing however that will not change, is if you use Edge to open a PDF it will render in edge and not your PDF reader of choice. The same applies to opening files from the download dialogue. But this isn't a MS issue, this applies to all Chrome browsers.
Re: Not just the browser (Score:2)
I'm not saying that didn't happen to you, but edge asked me if I wanted to make it my default PDF reader, I said no, and it didn't do it.
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What Windows appears to do is to re-ask after you install a new program that registers its ability to handle them (the next time you open a PDF). This makes some sort of sense, but is certainly annoying for common formats like PDF and HTML.
Not ruling out they do more nefarious things (given the Start Menu forces Edge for various content).
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I agree it's infuriating that Edge continually hijacks the PDF file association.
Oh the other hand, Adobe Reader (and tbh every Adobe application) is a slow, bloated, ad-ridden mess that should be the last choice when opening PDF files. 99.9% of the time if I want to open a PDF I want it to open in anything BUT Adobe Reader. Unfortunately, for the 0.01% of PDFs that require some feature that isn't implemented elsewhere, Adobe Reader is necessary.
Adobe Reader has recently been popping prompts to install som
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You know you don't have to install Adobe Reader, right?
FWIW, I had an interaction with the person responsible for PDFGear online somewhere and I've been using it since I found out about it. It's a free (gratis) PDF viewer and editor. Maybe the full, paid Acrobat product can do more things, but if so I haven't noticed.
stop menu (Score:3)
does any low hanging fruit use the start menu for searches anyway?
honest question. i have a hard time imagining a situation where you would want to search for something in your personal files and all over the internet at the same time. it's a waste of time and resources and will just pollute and muddle any results.
it's been over 3 decades, even the most tech challenged/uninterested user surely understands by now that personal files and the web are very different contexts?
for files, your file manager (explorer) has a nice search box.
for the web, well, use your web browser of choice.
the whole start menu could be just a simple input box. the only reason i ever use that thing for is to occasionally launch programs it finds with mere autocomplete.
anyway, microsoft and mozilla pulling this kind of nonsense is no news. this is how they both view users, and it shows.
Re:stop menu (Score:4, Informative)
Nope. We have people who have no idea where their files are saved. They can't say whether it's OneDrive, their desktop, or a network drive.
This doesn't even touch on the issue of people, particularly the younger ones, not knowing what a directory is or how to set up a directory structure to organize their files.
Search has only exasperated this. Just type something in and waste time seeing what comes up rather than going directly to it. This includes printers. The number of tickets we get each week from people saying they "searched" for their printer and can't find it is truly staggering.
So no, people do not understand the difference between local files and the web.
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The horror. Imagine if Finder on MacOS searched both local and iCloud files!
Re:stop menu (Score:5, Informative)
'My Documents' felt like the start of a slippery slope where filepaths became abstracted away. In a business context, add in Teams/Sharepoint/Onedrive and no wonder nobody knows where their files actually are any more.
Re: stop menu (Score:2)
Nobody knew before anyway. Admins can change those locations with policy or regedit.
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Microsoft added the option to disable web searches from the start menu in the most recent upgrade. It's a simply check box in the start menu settings. Also I highly recommend it as it actually makes the start menu significantly more responsive.
The low hanging fruit was grabbed. They heard you.
FIrefox losing to Edge (Score:3, Insightful)
Firefox losing to Edge has more to do with the long-term enshitification of Firefox than any anti-competive behavior by Microsoft. Google Chrome trounces Edge despite Microsoft.
Re:FIrefox losing to Edge (Score:4, Insightful)
Google Chrome trounces Edge despite Microsoft.
Which is pretty funny, since the only major difference between the two these days is "Is Google spying on you, or is Microsoft?"
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As if 99% of the sites you're visiting aren't 'spying' on you also.
Including *this* one*.
* - /. has some features that suffer when a decent ad blocker is active in your browser. So, if I want to expand comments, I have to disable my preferred ad blocker. Kudos, &%%holes.
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Which is pretty funny, since the only major difference between the two these days is "Is Google spying on you, or is Microsoft?"
This is the relevant point. If you're using Microsoft OS, you know they are collecting telemetry from you (unless you block it at firewall or similar.) Google is also collecting telemetry via Chrome for sure. I use both Chrome and Edge on a daily basis for varying reasons not limited to every once in a while I find an interface that only works properly in one or the other (looking at you Synology DSM.) Both work just fine with no notice-able performance difference. But if limiting the exposure of my da
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FF does a great job preventing trackers and you can easily set it up to use DuckDuckGo as a search engine much more private than Google. It places cookies in a separate web container preventing sharing of data, blocks cross-site cookies in Private Windows, and more...
Re:FIrefox losing to Edge (Score:4, Insightful)
Firefox does everything BUT making a better browser. They're always fiddling with cosmetic layouts or adding dumb tools that are already in the OS. Like a screenshot tool for example, what OS doesn't have one built in today? Last week they have us rounded tabs with a light purple hue. How about fixing some old bugs or making things render faster?
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I'm not a fan of Firefox's new two-week release cadence, to be quite honest.
Re:FIrefox losing to Edge (Score:4, Interesting)
Firefox losing to Edge has more to do with the long-term enshitification of Firefox than any anti-competive behavior by Microsoft. Google Chrome trounces Edge despite Microsoft.
Nah. Having used Firefox since it was called Firebird, I seem to have missed the actual enshittification. It is even much much more robust than it used to be. In the olden days once you had enough tabs for the application to use one gig of memory, it basically had to be restarted. My current development session is using three and not lagging at all. And no, the memory usage has improved, not gotten worse. My adblock and decentraleyes, + treestyletabs plugins work. The URL bar is ...awesome, and actually remembers stuff, which seems to be too much to ask for with some browsers.
The local translation feature is also a plus. The other AI stuff is kind of meh, so.... I haven't used anything else, and haven't been forced to.
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Firefox losing to Edge has more to do with the long-term enshitification of Firefox than any anti-competive behavior by Microsoft. Google Chrome trounces Edge despite Microsoft.
As if Chrome and/or Edge isn't enshittifying things? Why only hate on Firefox for something they all do?
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The long-term enshittification of Firefox was funded and perpetuated by Google. Mozilla was funded by Google. Mozilla's CEO was owned by Google. Now that the Google funding is gone, Mozilla is waking up from its long Google funded slumber and asking some questions.
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Firefox losing to Edge has more to do with the long-term enshitification of Firefox
Please go read the definition of "enshittification". It doesn't mean "anything I don't like."
The group that designs Firefox has made some very questionable decisions over the years, but enshittification of the browser is definitely not on the list.
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I don't disagree that Mozilla has made a lot of bad decisions but cmon you can't be serious with this.
The fact that Microsoft and Google can bundle their browsers in devices used by billions of people has nothing at all to do with why an open source browser people have to go out of their way to find has never caught up ???
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>"Firefox losing to Edge has more to do with the long-term enshitification of Firefox than any anti-competive behavior by Microsoft."
WRONG. 100% wrong. And how you were modded up is astonishing. Absolutely nobody has switched from using Firefox to Edge because of Firefox and you know it. The people using Edge are precisely because it is the default browser and/or due to Microsoft's aggressive efforts to promote/force Edge, and/or rarely, because there is something specific in Edge the user might want
Doesn't seem to be a problem for Chrome though. (Score:1)
Re: Doesn't seem to be a problem for Chrome though (Score:2)
Chrome is advertised aggressively by every Google site.
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Internet search results in the start menu (Score:4, Insightful)
in European countries, the Start menu opens links in your default web browser rather than in Edge
Web links and Internet search results in the start menu is not a good idea, web links and Internet search results in the start menu was never a good idea, it was a bad idea. The user experience is depreciated because of it.
When I start typing notepad into my search box notepad should be the first result except it's Netflix. Microsoft Word is fucking wordle...
This is not the only instance but one of my pet peeves of Windows 11.(Enterprise lockdown workstation full of ads and spyware)
It was a bad idea and whoever came up with it should be ashamed.
Right or wrong, but ⦠(Score:1)
The Microsoft News Widget forces MS Edge on you (Score:5, Informative)
On Windows 11, Copilot and the News Widget forcibly use Microsoft Edge no matter what you set your default to and it simply can't be changed.
It's annoying and unfair.
What happens.. (Score:4, Interesting)
I never use windows, not a single install in my home. So I can't try this myself: What happens if you make Edge non-executable? Can you delete it even? Perhaps replace it with the chrome executable file?
Just curious and amused. It amazes me that people would install something that doesn't let them control their own PC.
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There is nothing stopping you from running your own custom shell in Windows.
Personally, I use Stardock's Start11 and it removes all of the Microsoft defaults.
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You could do that or even delete it. However an update would likely restore it.
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What happens if you make Edge non-executable? Can you delete it even?
You can uninstall Edge in Europe (apparently), but you can't uninstall WebView2 (which is also Edge) since it's used to render parts of windows itself. In fact the latter is part of Windows File Protection so tampering with that executable will result in your tampering being untampered on next boot.
Microsoft Edge (Score:5, Funny)
The browser you use to download the browser you want.
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I don't even need to do that anymore, WinGet can install Firefox for me.
Mozilla needs to compete again (Score:4, Interesting)
Mozilla is exasperating, I've used Firefox on and off for over 20 years now, but currently using Vivaldi since Firefox no longer meets my needs.
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But then I use it as a stupid browser that is also allowed to open pdf's.
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None of that matters. That is not why people are not installing Firefox. It is because Google tries to force Chrome on all their devices and sites, and Microsoft tries to force Edge on all their devices and sites.
Most users don't even realize they have a choice for browsers or what the choices are and why. And in corporate settings, users have no choice. "Power users", as you mention, are the way less than 1%. And most Firefox users are not passionate about the theme (and yes, I do care, and use css ha
New MICROS~1 same as old MICROS~1 (Score:2)
* On the Chrome download page a large blue banner proclaims ‘Microsoft Edge runs on the same technology as Chrome, with the added trust of Microsoft’.
* Windows 11 run for the first time screen prompts to import other browser settings and in the process enable Edge as default.
* Windows 10 11 migration: Microsoft’s Windows Backup utility does not properly transf
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Where's the "Just drink the KoolAide and shut up" radio button?
more like Microsoft and Google than ever (Score:5, Insightful)
Alternatives exist (Score:4, Informative)
I used to use Windows for a few things I couldn't do in Ubuntu, which I greatly prefer.
One day I just asked Claude to help me create a solution to those few Windows programs I used.
It took Claude a couple of hours and now I never need to boot into Windows again. In fact, its a pain since Windows requires 3 reboots every time there's an update and if you use it once a month, you spend a lot of time waiting for the grub and redirecting it.
Freedom from Windows (or Mac for that matter), with all the crap they install, some for marketing, some for clueless users who think adding an emoji is real computer work, is really great!
I'm giving this another couple of months and if I haven't booted into Windows once, I will repurpose the 2T drive it sits on.
I realize this may not work for you if your employer wants everyone on Windows.
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Yet just about everything I need can be done from this Kubuntu computer using the Brave browser.
It also worked in Firefox but Brave does a better job opening and using Teams, Outlook, Office365 etc.
But I still use LibreOffice.
Browser preference? Browsers are the new OS. (Score:2)
Browsers are the new Operating System done poorly - how can one browserOS/Firefox vendor complain another vendor defaults to their own browserOS/Microsoft*? That's just silly.
* I almost completely refrained from using the term Microslop.
Doing the minimum the law requires. (Score:2)
"They'll do the minimum the law requires to respect user choice,"
Like, no shit? Is it really a big shock to people that Microsoft -- or any megacorp -- isn't doing more than the law requires?
Digital Markets Act (Score:3)
There are a few Windows 11 tweaking utilities that enable the Digital Markets Act on your PC so you can get the uninstall option back in Windows 11 for Edge. Here is a YT video showing how: https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
M$, fightint any other software? (Score:2)
I'm shocked, shocked I tell you!
1. Netscape
2. WordPerfect
Do I really need to continue?
it's called (Score:2)
mozilla still out there.. (Score:2)
Mozilla is still out there fighting the good fight? What year is this???
Does anyone even test stuff on FF anymore? Safari?
I uninstalled FF because it kept asking to be the default browser. No, stay in your place. If I have to test a fix on Firefox in the next 5 years I'll reinstall it anyway. And then delete it again.