BYD Sold More EVs Last Month Than the US Did All Quarter (electrek.co) 284
An anonymous reader quotes a report from Electrek: The world's leading EV maker is showing no signs of slowing down. BYD sold 490,168 new energy vehicles (NEVs) in October, up 11% from the prior year and the company's highest monthly total in 2026. BYD's battery electric vehicles drove the growth, with a record 305,743 units sold, up 37% year over year and marking the first time its EV sales have crossed the 300,000 mark. To put that into perspective, just over 262,500 EVs were sold in the US in the entire third quarter combined, according to Kelley Blue Book estimates. By the end of the year, BYD expects overseas shipments to reach about 2 million vehicles. "In 2027, that number is expected to rise to more than 2.5 million vehicles," adds Electrek.
Surprisingly good. (Score:5, Informative)
I took my aging Citroen in for a major service and was given a loaner for the day which turned into 2 days.
First car I got was a new Volvo X60 Hybrid and I hated it so much that when I came back at the end of the 1st day to get my car (which wasn't ready) I asked for a a different loaner.
The car they gave me was a BYD Atto 2. Didn't think much of it from the outside but once inside it was "very high end".
It was 1/2 the price of the Volvo. It was also twice the car.
Much more comfortable, all the same features and faster and more responsive.
When I went to get my own car back I wasn't happy about giving back the BYD, I would have kept it.
That'll be my next car I think. I like the KIA EVs too but they are pricier. BYD is under cutting everyone with decent products.
Fuck Musk. I had intended to get a Tesla model Y as my next car but after his political meddling I refuse to finance that man. He can fly his cars up his arse.
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I took my aging Citroen in for a major service and was given a loaner for the day which turned into 2 days.
First car I got was a new Volvo X60 Hybrid and I hated it so much that when I came back at the end of the 1st day to get my car (which wasn't ready) I asked for a a different loaner.
The car they gave me was a BYD Atto 2. Didn't think much of it from the outside but once inside it was "very high end".
It was 1/2 the price of the Volvo. It was also twice the car.
Much more comfortable, all the same features and faster and more responsive.
When I went to get my own car back I wasn't happy about giving back the BYD, I would have kept it.
That'll be my next car I think. I like the KIA EVs too but they are pricier. BYD is under cutting everyone with decent products.
Fuck Musk. I had intended to get a Tesla model Y as my next car but after his political meddling I refuse to finance that man. He can fly his cars up his arse.
What did you hate about the Volvo? i could see it not being exciting or something, but surprised it was offensive.
also, you should prob still get a Tesla because as overhyped and delayed as its "FSD" has been... it still seems to be the best around. ( though i HATE the whole "there's no buttons and everything's in a menu, including drive and reverse" thing )
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The Atto2 is a cheap shitty car that gets middling reviews [topgear.com]. It's smaller, less luxurious, and slower than the XC60. For most people, the only reason you'd prefer the Atto2 is that it's cheaper.
Re: Surprisingly good. (Score:2)
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BYD is profitable since 2002.
And does not get (as far as I know never got) any government subsidizes.
Stupid moron.
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The Model Y isn't a very good car anyway. No physical controls for most functions, including things like gear selection and headlights. The automatic systems don't work very well (they don't in most cars, e.g. the auto high beams tend to blind other people because they react too slowly, and Teslas are some of the worst for it). It's uncomfortable and you have to deal with frequent software updates and in-car monetization.
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He can fly his cars up his arse.
An interesting notion, considering they're now rocket powered!
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America PAC [wikipedia.org]
Elon Musk won’t face criminal charges for offering voters $1 million checks during 2025 Supreme Court election [votebeat.org]
"Without me, Trump would have lost the election, Dems would control the House and the Republicans would be 51-49 in the Senate" His words.
The staggering $446m Elon Musk has spent on the US midterms [theguardian.com]
Elon has spent more in the past 2 years than George Soros has in his entire lifetime [fortune.com]
And let's not forget that time he accused Trump of being a pedophile, and then spends 1/2 billion suppor
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"So all I'm seeing is he didn't support the DDP? Uhh Hitler derangement syndrome much?"
Did he ever fully retract that statement? O mean guess he could have made it up, he does throw pedo accusations when he gets mad, at least we agree Musk has tissue paper skin and the self control of everyone's bratty spoiled nephew.
Also you heard it here folks, you can do egregiously anti democratic and illegal acts of you're just ignorant or they don't get the outcome they wanted.
Yes your honor I shot the opposing teams
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Even the USSR tried to have human rights.
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You're the only one in the world who thinks America has race-based slavery or legalized organ harvesting.
Re: Surprisingly good. (Score:2)
The China Strategy (Score:5, Interesting)
You see this a lot with Americans... they belittle the stuff that the Chinese have taken over with manufacturing. They say that it is because Americans are uninterested in seriously competing. The truth is China is destroying manufacturing around the world though government policies. It is a slow an inevitable takeover without some serious kind of regulation similar to a dollar store destroying the other neighboring stores. Nobody and I mean nobody an compete anywhere.
We are now seeing the Chinese move into the last lucrative segments that modern countries used to take pride in. You are seeing the downfall of car manufacturing in Japan, the US and Europe. In the near future no meaningful manufacturing will exist outside of China, and with the hollowing out of the economy no one will be able to afford anything but Chinese goods like a bunch of crack addicts. Once you have your population trained on cheap disposable goods it is extremely hard to return.. They treat it like it is a human right even if it will be the end of the economy slowly being hollowed out.
Case in point, would you buy the Liberty Phone [puri.sm] by Purism? You would probably say that it is too expensive and underpowered making my point for me.
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Everyone belittling China knows that the CCP intends to eliminate free markets through destructive pricing policies. But they're getting crushed with debt, and it's taking a toll on their economy.
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Case in point, would you buy the Liberty Phone [puri.sm] by Purism? You would probably say that it is too expensive and underpowered making my point for me.
Oh I thought you were going to pull out the Trump phone, proudly displaying that it's made in America, while being a HTC clone underneath - and definitely not made in the USA.
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You see this a lot with Americans... they belittle the stuff that the Chinese have taken over with manufacturing.
That perception did not arise from nothing. Back in the 80s, the first Chinese made products started arriving after moving manufacturing off-shore. Those products were absolute shit. The American execs tried to get things built for the lowest cost possible and the Chinese delivered exactly what was asked for.
For the next 20 years, we were all buying cheap Chinese shit that would fall apart at first use.
Around 2010 or so, Americans were finally able to see some higher quality Chinese engineering. And then, C
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The same happened earlier with Japan.
See Back to The Future for pop culture reference. 50's Doc Brown: Japanese products are crap, 80's Marty: they are the best.
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You are misinformed. The destruction of American industry is entirely self-inflicted in the beginning. American companies chose to place short-term quarterly gains over quality products. Outsourcing to China, selling brands to Chinese companies was deliberate. You talk about how US companies once took pride in making things of quality. The harvard business school mentality killed that decades ago. Some of the cheapest, lowest-quality stuff I deal with was made in the US (Eaton Cutler, looking at you in
The more they sell, the more they lose (Score:3)
https://evsgallery.com/the-mor... [evsgallery.com]
BYD loves bragging about sales and profits while actually bleeding cash and/or amassing debt.
Well of course they did (Score:2)
They have 5x the population. They should be selling 5x more than the US.
490k in 1 month vs 309k in 9 months (Score:2)
In comparison, in yesterday's front page, Toyota sold in 9 months less than what BYD sold in one month.
Including Lexus, Toyota sold 309,766 battery electric vehicles (BEVs) globally through the first nine months of 2026
That is how far BYD and Tesla are leaving everyone else in the dust. Germany and Japan are in deep trouble.
US market in panic mode (Score:3, Insightful)
Naturally, the US answer is to ban other manufacturers...after all Elon paid big bucks for the orange one to do his bidding.
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Coal (Score:2)
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Who cares. My gas powered car is 15 years old and has never needed a part.
Re: they will keep selling them (Score:2)
This is an insult to the formerly great german engineering who have handed over their entire automotive industry to china, on top of what they were already getting thru espionage.
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As someone else asked, is it 2015 again?
We *know* that batteries last longer than thought. And the average age of cars on US roads is 13 years old. And folks are reporting 10 year old batteries still being 80% of original spec.
No, the US market isn't "saturated", people can't afford in this horrible economy (oh, yes, it's great... if you're rich. The rest of us, not so much.).
Re:they will keep selling them (Score:4, Insightful)
What makes you think BYD is incapable of making a car that lasts? https://insideevs.com/features... [insideevs.com]
The fact that domestic automakers are lobbying for an import ban tells me everything.
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"What makes you think BYD is incapable of making a car that lasts?"
Racism.
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What makes you think BYD is incapable of making a car that lasts? https://insideevs.com/features... [insideevs.com]
The fact that domestic automakers are lobbying for an import ban tells me everything.
The same thing that makes me think Tesla can build a car that lasts... they won't because they don't have to.
Once the statutory warranty period is up, they couldn't care less what happens.
With ICE cars, making one last 20 years and a million miles was about care, mechanical sympathy and preventative maintenance. You give the best manufactured Honda Civic or Toyota Corolla to someone who doesn't give a shit, only replaces the tyres when they fail MOT (with the cheapest possible Ditchfinders), ignores w
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The same thing that makes me think Tesla can build a car that lasts... they won't because they don't have to.
The problem is that the evidence points to the contrary. Teslas do last. They had some problems with wishbones and some suspension issues, but that's something you find with other manufacturers too, and later model years heavily improved on that.
Where I live you routinely find Teslas with more than 200,000 miles on the odometer still going strong.
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Unless you have offstreet parking and a garage in the US in a home you own
is it 2015 again? are we still doing these arguments? also why make this sound rare? this is like 2/3 of every home in america, i dunno if you live in america but we fucking love garages and parking, that shit is everywerhere
also yeah if you live in an apartment you might not have it now but like itll happen, its just wires. its just wires people!!!!! look around, there are chargers going up everywhere
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I had the same feeling. Maybe this guy was stuck in a coma for the last 10 years, and woke up convinced that everybone in the US and Australia lived in tall apartnemnt blocks?
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It's not even a reality-based argument for people who do live in tall apartment blocks in the US. I live in a tall apartment block in the US and there's plenty of public chargers nearby. This is actually pretty common because there's demand, so companies are stepping up with supply. Maybe that guy actually lives somewhere they don't teach economics... like Russia.
Re:they will keep selling them (Score:5, Informative)
It's less of a problem than you'd think, and 45 minutes is an exaggeration; the other thing about dense urban environments is you typically don't have that far of a commute, so you don't end up having to charge it nightly or even weekly, necessarily, and almost never from practically 0% either, as this straw-man argument typically continues.
Re: they will keep selling them (Score:2)
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Nobody with an EV does this. Chargers are everywhere. You charge at home or at your destination. No special trips to charge.
On a long trip, you park, plug in, go to the toilet, get a coffee, go back to car, unplug, and drive off. Total stop time is maybe 15 minutes but you've only spent about 30 seconds being actively involved with the charging. In that time the car will have gained enough power for another 2-3 hours driving.
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And why do people keep saying "own" a home? Are renters not allowed to use electricity?
We frequent New Orleans regularly, the only "older city" part with a real lack of off-street parking is the French Quarter and the garden district. Most everywhere else there is suburban. That said, Louisiana does have the lowest number of chargers per-capita of all the states...
Re: they will keep selling them (Score:2)
Re:they will keep selling them (Score:4, Interesting)
Yea I looked up what it would take to get an EV as a Brit who doesn't have a house with a driveway (which is common in my area, most houses here are Victorian slum terraces straight out of 1984); also no work charging despite I work for local govt.
On prices (imagine £ = $ here, it's not far off) I would have to use public chargers; the price round me is 75p a KW/H for fast charge, 40p a KW/H for normal charge. With a battery of 60KWH, I'd pay £45 and have to wait 15 - 30 mins. 60kw/h * 4 miles = about 240 miles. Which is less miles per £ than even our very high current fuel prices get me.
Or the normal charge; I would have to sit around and wait multiple hours every 5 days or so, to pay £20 for the 240 miles which is on par with fuel.
Plus the interest costs on buying a brand new EV vs buying a second hand car with cash. If you are a poorer person and don't own a home with a driveway, I can't see how owning an EV is economically viable at all.
Perhaps for those more middle-class where it seems the only vehicle choices people ever make are a) a brand new EV or b) a brand new 4 litre SUV or luxury sedan; an EV can make sense.
But if you are poorer, I can buy a second hand 1.2L hatchback for £3000, and fuel per mile costs the same as the 5 hour charging option for an EV. Hell the interest on a "car note" for an EV will pay for my fuel alone.
Plus the "nicities" of owning a gas car; the heat is considered wasted when it comes to efficienty but in the miserable British winter, I'd have the heat on high, further reducing range in an EV. If I've been lazy and didn't feel like getting fuel one day, I can quickly fill up with fuel in 5 minutes the next morning before work. If I'm paying more money for an EV I don't want less.
One issue is EV zealots will have their EV, their off peak 5p/kwh electricity plans, and their solar panels, so they can charge their EV for under $1 as opposed to the $50 I'd have to pay. But they think because EV's work for them, they never think about how it would work for the other guy. If an EV works for them it must work for everyone right?
For an EV to work economically for me then fast chargers would have to be 10p/kwh absolute maximum, plus a second hand EV market also. If the tech improves so they could make an EV hatchback with some sort of solar skin that could add a 600W charge; imagine that too.
The tech is improving so I would never say "EV will never be good enough even in 1000 years" like some clowns used to say (remember the videos showing the energy density of Lead Acid batteries vs Gasoline, "proving" therefore that the laws of physics batteries will never be feasible for cars ever?) but at the moment it doesn't work out for most poorer citizens
Re:they will keep selling them (Score:4, Insightful)
"Plus the interest costs on buying a brand new EV vs buying a second hand car with cash."
Are all Brits so disingenuous with their arguments? Why don't you compare a brand new EV with walking? The cost differences are even more compelling.
Many Europeans do not own cars, that you would consider one means you would have the financial means and justification for one. The lies are easily seen though, and everyone knows that EVs will not be good choices for many in the transition. But thanks for the shitty, bigoted input.
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No one is forcing you except Exxon. You have a gas pump in your garage?
Growing up in the 70s I remember needing to know if it was an even or odd day so I knew if I could buy gas based on my license plate, making sure that I could fit at least $8 worth into my tiny gas tank (and having $8 to do it) then needing to wait 2+ hours in a line to get to a pump. Funny, though, how no one said that was a loss of freedumb then. It takes MAGA to suggest something that stupid.
Meanwhile, I've never waited 45 minutes
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Re: they will keep selling them (Score:2)
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Which is why I stopped and did the 10 minute charge along the way?
"because you always have to charge at some point"
Yes? There are chargers all over the place - even some in Wyoming. Even with our car which is outdated anymore from a range perspective - we have never found a gap bigger than our range other than maybe driving highway 50 in Nevada, which may even be remediated now anyway**. There are so many more chargers available than people think!
And v
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Modern EVs charge in 5 mins or less.
You know that.
So why play troll?
Re: they will keep selling them (Score:3)
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Well, I believe I saw at least one number saying that fully 1/3 of people in the US do not own their homes, don't have offstreet parking, live in apartments....the ones that really aren't set up for EV life.
That's not an insignificant number....and yes this is in 2026.
Are you not hearing about people complaining they can't afford pr
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But that requires joined up thinking. The US does not
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Re: they will keep selling them (Score:4, Insightful)
"My government is NOT there to tell me what the fuck to do...it is there to represent my interests"
Although you care about zero of them, there ARE other people with the same representatives you have, who want different things than you do. For example, they want livable climate for themselves and their offspring, while you couldn't be arsed to care about yours.
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Re:they will keep selling them (Score:5, Insightful)
I think for the most part in the US, the EV market is saturated...
At the current price point. When they cost $15,000 each, that will open a new market segment.
Re:they will keep selling them (Score:5, Insightful)
Unless you have offstreet parking
The USA is so spread out that everyone needs to drive gasoline cars everywhere yet somehow so compact no one has a drive to charge an EV.
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Life is simply too complex for MAGA to understand. Multiple bits cannot fit into some brains.
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Easy to say, hard to do. Not just due to lack of political will but because this is difficult and expensive to do pervasively. Yes, these things should be done and, no, it's not a solution. It's part of a reasonable plan we don't have.
"Some states might do some of the above but then there is the federal (lack of) initiative made worse by having a senile asshole in power who hates renewables and electrification because of a windfarm dispute at one of his golf courses."
Yes, precisely. The US doesn't have
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This is a chicken and egg situation which is easily resolved with legislation. The government mandates that apartments, supermarkets and other car parks gain charging spots. They mandate new builds have chargers as part of construction sign off.
So your plan is to solve this problem within 40 years?
Land lord here - mandates are delusional (Score:2)
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We'll see if Nissan's direction with the 2027 Rogue hybrid is the direction others take. It's driven solely by the electric motor so it feels like an EV with the ICE only being used to charge the battery along with a bypass mode that lets the ICE engine directly power the electric motor.
That will let manufacturers use the knowledge they developed creating EVs. Though the hybrid is really just an EREV (extended range electric vehicle) on steroids. Hauling around a generators everywhere isn't that great as go
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You still need to do x amount of work to turn the wheels.
A series hybrid like the Nissan gets 25-35% efficiency going gas -> electricity -> battery -> electric motor -> wheels turning.
But add in regenerative braking and you get some of that back as charge versus just generating heat on a regular car.
Using gas soley to turn the wheels is roughly 15-30% efficient. So it looks like the hybrid straight out wins. But once you get up to a constant RPM like highway driving modern ICE engines can hit 40
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"They even think black people are too stupid to get ID."
Do Democrats think that? Because Republicans count on it.
I did enjoy your fresh take on projection though. You're absolutely right, the answer is racism. Your racism.
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Democrats in America are very racist.
They even think black people are too stupid to get ID.
Go fuck yourself and your projection, Dmitry. Anyone that isn't a slobbering knuckledragging MAGAt understands why Democrats oppose "voter ID" proposals from Republicans.
It's not difficult in complexity, it's difficult due to the amount of inconvenience baked in.
It's because Republican "voter ID" laws are designed to make it difficult (as in lots of hoop jumping and costs) for certain people to obtain a valid ID. "The voter ID is free!" but the documentation needed for the ID is not free (passport or copy
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This is just made-up nonsense for which you've provided no evidence. There are almost no EVs in the WORLD older than Teslas. The modern Chinese EV era didn't really even begin until 5 years ago, so of course the gas models are older.
Tesla does sell in mainland China (and has for a while now), but Chinese customers still mainly prefer domestic manufactures. If it was true that the Chinese models were all of poor quality, this wouldn't be the case. If you'd actually spend any time in BYDs (I have) you'd see t
Re:they will keep selling them (Score:5, Interesting)
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the comment was melodramatic but I think it reflects something in the 'West', where a whole generation of people have grown up associating Chinese manufacture with plastic/poorly-made junk. And that's largely true.
To get from there to buying an actual Chinese car can be a real leap, because most (?) people don't buy many cars in their lifetime and they're generally a significant investment. Without an established track record of customer service and reliability, the only way to pull people in is to tank the
Re: they will keep selling them (Score:2)
The last two German cars I bought ended up with complete engine failures several times over. In particular on the last one, the transmission chain was replaced 3/(!)/times within the last 100k km.
This is not even counting all the other numeroua repairs I shouldn't have to have to be doing in a car that hasn't hit 200k km yet.
So... if I can have the same with Chinese, just cheaper, I'm all for it.
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I was in a BYD car recently (a Uber) and my immediate feeling was "plastic/poorly-made junk", due to them using materials or moulding techniques that relate me to cheap children toys (at least for the car I was in -- I know BYD also makes more expensive cars). Though this does not in principle affect car longevity, it's just the feeling of being inside a child toy that was surprising to me. (I'm happy it makes EVs cheaper so we can use less fossil fuels.)
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the same was said of Japanese cars...and then Korean cars. And is now said of American cars. The most plastic/poorly-made junk I've experienced in my life is a Tesla Model Y.
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Cars, even well made cars, don't magically last for many years. They need to be maintained and repaired occasionally, which requires parts. China is notorious for not keeping stuff around long, so the expectation is that keeping a car in working order will become difficult or prohibitively expensive. You'll end up scrapping a car because a $100 part turns out to be unobtainium.
Re: they will keep selling them (Score:3)
That's not a thing. A part that cheap that becomes a sticking point will be reverse engineered and reproduced... By the Chinese in fact. It will show up on AliExpress with all the thousands of other parts like that
Re:they will keep selling them (Score:4, Informative)
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So you think I am being an "unscientific" "apologist" for insisting on an analysis based on facts and evidence, then presenting actual evidence that proves you didn't present any evidence remotely associated with the question? Do you even know what the word apology means, or how science works?
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you're new here? Look at the OP's handle, his dumbfuckery has been known forever.
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Re:they will keep selling them (Score:5, Insightful)
Speaking of the 1970s, back then the whole US car industry (and large swaths of the European industry too) said that Japanese cars were poor quality and would never make it in the open market. They were very wrong and suffered the consequences.
There's plenty not to like about the way that the Chinese EV business operates. Their factories were massively subsidised by state intervention so their cost doesn't reflect the full cost of the capital expense that goes into them and the exports are priced based on a glut of supply.
That said, the world would be wrong to write them off as cheap crap. Their mass market small cars aren't made for the US customer, but don't think that they can't make cars like that if they think that they will make a killing (financially or strategically) by doing so.
Re:they will keep selling them (Score:5, Informative)
> Their factories were massively subsidised by state intervention so their cost doesn't reflect the full cost of the capital expense that goes into them
Yeah, till you do a quick Google/ChatGPT search and ask for all of the ways in which western governments have subsidised the car manufaturing industries in the west...
That, and the 15B (B!) a year the Australian Government pays to subsidise petrol rafineries...
Re: they will keep selling them (Score:2)
what is the problem with subsidizing a high capital business that is good for people?
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As someone who lives in a country where every single vehicle on the road here is imported, I have no problems with BYD being subsidised if the price I pay is lower.
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Car manufacturing is massively subsidized in the West too.
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Speaking of the 1970s, back then the whole US car industry (and large swaths of the European industry too) said that Japanese cars were poor quality and would never make it in the open market. They were very wrong and suffered the consequences.
context is a bit important, because from the '50s to the '70s, japanese products were largely awful. japanese electronics were particularly infamous.
but they turned things around by continued development and innovation; many were slow to notice due to decades of poor quality.
Their factories were massively subsidised by state intervention so their cost doesn't reflect the full cost of the capital expense that goes into them and the exports are priced based on a glut of supply.
important to stress the amount of subsidies--far, far greater than any western country, and the core tech (the battery) has also been heavily subsidized for decades, which results in an artificially low price that would be completely un
Re: they will keep selling them (Score:2)
Most of the US cars, too.
What, you really thought people doing factory work all day, every day,/for less than it takes to pay a rent is a lifestyle choice?
The force application mehtods are just different, mkre subtle. That's all.
Re: they will keep selling them (Score:2)
Slaves workning a factory, too, don't they?
US federal minimum wage is at 7-odd dollars unchanged since 1990s, and an average factory worker's net wage is aboht the same as a month's rent - no retiremennt, sick time, holiday or maternity mandated (and typically not available). At will employment, medical insurance tied to it.
Homelesaness made illegal in large parts of the country, yet aboht 50% of the honeless habe jobs. Largest prison population in the world, incarcerated people usually are forced to work.
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Slaves workning a factory, too, don't they? US federal minimum wage is at 7-odd dollars unchanged since 1990s,
Literally 15 seconds with google gave me these labor statistics from https://www.bls.gov/iag/tgs/ia... [bls.gov]
$40/hr + benefits is not really slave labor, especially with the cost of living in places that tend to have auto factories. Your citation of a $7 federal minimum wage (which is of course higher in local jurisdictions) is hardly relevant.
Average hourly earnings (of production and nonsupervisory workers)
Motor vehicles and parts manufacturing
2025 12 month change sep 2025 - sep 2026
$32.80 $1.86
Motor
Re: they will keep selling them (Score:2)
They make $25/hour gross, on average. That's around $3000 per month after taxes, at best.
$2000 is rent, on average - then comes utilities, then comes health. Then comes food, eventually.
The fact that minimum wage is low means there's not enough high-paying jobs to raise the pressure on thr auto makers.
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There may be forced labor in the Chinese value chain (mostly raw materials or tier 2/3 parts suppliers), but forced labor is not the reason for cheap cars in China. To the extent tier 2/3 suppliers and raw materials are made with forced labor, the U.S. and European manufacturers (which also buy Chinese parts and materials) are guilty too. Chinese auto factories have very little labor AT ALL. They are heavily automated- often referred to as "dark factories" because they can just turn the lights off while the
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Thats the same of all EVs. Once the battery is end of life is scrapping time. In Europe however even locally made ICE cars must be recyclable and once it's over 160,000kms or 100,000 miles it will start to fail more and more [I'm looking at you BMW and Mercedes]. Just assume your EV has a finite lifespan.
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