Interview with Alfredo K. Kojima

BadlandZ writes "The UnOffical GNUstep site is featuring an Interview with Alfredo K. Kojima in it's new SlashDot-like [GNUstep newsWire]; news section. On a side note, I recently decided to publicly release a little essay I wrote on why GNUstep isn't just a DE for anyone who cares for a "non-technical" read on why GNUstep is a bit more expansive in design than say, KDE or Gnome. Just incase anyone cares... ;-) "

GNUstep and porting

[Watcher]

One point most folks don't remember about GNUstep: The end goal is to have one API with which we can write an application, and then just recompile it on any system and have it run. This means you write an application under Linux, test it out, copy it to windows and it should work without any tweaking. That's the end goal of this whole thing. Hopefully they will achieve that goal, because in doing so developers can support multiple operating systems with little or no work. Can you imaging what it would be like for porting if we could get adobe and corel onto this?

Compatiblity issues

[yoshiborg]

Don't forget, GNUstep's API will be compatible with that used by OpenStep and Mac OS X.

Heh

[Matrix]

I seem to be the only one who can't stand the NeXT look, but I'm glad that there is that choice.. Now watch out for KDE v gnome v GNUStep.. :)

Ease of programming determines my environment

[Jeremy Erwin]

One of the reasons I switched my "allegience" from Gnome to KDE is that I found Qt to be a better match for my (nascent) programming style. I just wasn't comfortable with GTK+.

As I understand it, *Step uses Objective C. As may be ascertained from my flirtation with Qt, I like (ISO) C++. How much does ObjC differ from C++? Does it support templates? Are there good tutorials on the language and/or GNUstep programming?

These issues are more important than "this wm is better than that wm," "this library is more cross-platform than that library," or "this license is better that that license."

Why do we have KDE,GNOME anyway?

[Husain]

Why did we ever get KDE and GNOME anyway ? GNUStep was around (at least as a concept) long before KDE (and especially before GNOME). Why didn't the ppl. who wrote KDE didn't just use parts of GNUStep (and just write up the missing code themselfs).

Is this because the GNUStep maintainers are just too uncooperative or is there a diff. reson ?


Also, Why the hell did RedHat Start GNOME ? whyd didn't they just fiund Harmoney and get on with life .... It seems to be pretty moronic ..

BTW, NeXTStep is alot more than just an interface you In theory have to modify a few things and u could get Enlightemnt running.

Ease of programming determines my environment

[pingouin]

Are there good tutorials on the language and/or GNUstep programming?

I don't know. Take a look at the GNUstep site [gnustep.org]; they also make mention of Apple's reference material, which includes an Obj-C overview [apple.com]. I don't know how good it is - I've perused it on and off for several weeks, but haven't tried even a HelloWorld.app as of yet. Maybe when those 28-hour days start, I'll have the time to...

--

KDE may suck...

[Roberto]

... that's your opinion and you are perfectly right to have one, but let me tell you a few things.

1) single click activation == feature

Damn right it's a feature!
What is the rational explanation for double click?
It only made sense in the mac because they only have one button. On anything else, it's silly.

I'm amazed by those who critizice KDE for being windows-like and then proceed to discard any difference without giving a rational explanation.

2) Objective C == proper language

Whatever floats your boat, but I believe the main reason for GNUStep development to be this slow -- and it's slow, people said GNUStep was going to be ready really soon in the original KDE thread, october 1996, and still there are no usable results -- is Objective C.

Why? Because only a few people know Objective C and most noone else cares about it.

It may be a damn good language, but if there is no developer mass, it can never make up for it.

I mean, it may be 10 times easier to learn than C++, and make development 5 times as simple, but if you have 1/100th the developer mass, you are still 20 times slower to develop.

Moscow....

[Prothonotar]

GTKStep may be nice to some people (I don't like it myself), but we'll really have the chance for a well designed, completely open Destop Environment/GUI API in Warsaw and Moscow (parts of the Berlin project). I've taken a look at some of the design for Berlin and it looks really smooth; and it seems to have been properly designed *before* implementation (which may make it seem like development is going slow in the short run but in the long run it will benefit tremendously). Berlin's biggest obstacle will be getting people to think completely "outside the box" of X11. I wish them good luck.
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.

do you know..

[linuchristo]

I think the first graphical Web browser ran only on Nextstep. this makes Nextstep look good because some pretty good computerists (the early implementors of the Web) decided to use it.
but where do you get the idea that if Nextstep had not been available the implementors of the Web would have just given up? do you have quotes from the early implementors?

good point

[pohl]

That's a good point. It's a conclusion that the creators of Openstep came to long ago. Most people don't know it, but you can make your Openstep/Mach applications look like Windows apps with a single parameter change to the defaults database.

Anyway, so much for devil's advocacy. ;-)

NeXT

[Skyshadow]

I like the way the NeXT/openstep wm's look, but I
gotta say I just can't get into the way they work.
I dunno, I guess I just want a wm that'll get the
hell out of your way if you want it to and let you
easily juggle those dozens of sessions you have
open at any particular time.

So far, the SGI wm manages to do that best (after
some deal of tinkering, of course).

Don't mean to get too far off topic, but does
anyone else look at the new console in KDE 1.1 and
it's ability to switch between virtual consoles in
the same window and ask themselves, "why didn't I
think of that?"

----

Standard API == Good

[kinesis]

Application developers want to reach the largest audience possible--not just people who are running the same windown manager.

End users want to just learn how to get around in one desktop environment.

I don't see any _nix taking over the consumer market without a standard "look and feel" across its major apps.

Ease of programming determines my environment

[Ian Bicking]

Objective C isn't related to C++ at all. Objective C is object-oriented in the style of Smalltalk.

There are no templates because they are not necessary with Objective C. Objective C has a type id which is kind of like a void pointer. So a container object that held ids could hold any kind of object. If it communicates with messages (which are fully polymorphic) then it doesn't need to know what it holds.

This means that all message sends happen dynamically at runtime, which is an overhead. However, these overheads often reflect a complexity in the program that C++ simply isn't able to do any better with. The result is a very flexible system.

Objective C shows its advantages best when you consider the ease of use and power of the libraries. It is also a strict superset of C, so you can use straight C for speed if you want.

That's just a random assortment of thoughts on Objective C, from someone who thinks C++ is a dirty word (so take it as you will).

sig11

[mattc]

Hahaha! I love that sig11 icon in the screenshot...

all well and good

[datazone]

i wish them all the best of luck in their project, however, the dream of having only one standard GUI interface is so anti-linux that i am amazed that someone will even bring it up. The reason that i love and use linux, is because i can CHOOSE what i want to use and how my system will look. There are so amny different choices, what they should work on, is a compatability standard, where everything can inter-communicate or something along that line. but what do i know, i only know what i like.

Nice article..

[bdjohns1]

I'm inclined to agree...I prefer the look and feel of WindowMaker/GNUstep applications to the standard Motif and GTK apps. Qt (KDE) does a decent job of creating an interface, but compared to WM, KDE's just a hog...not to mention we've got the Dock and the Clip. :)

good point

[pohl]

Yecch

Agreed. I'm guessing that's why most people don't know about themes in openstep. Speaking of GTK, I'm curious if the design of the themes allows for NeXT-ish scrollbar buttons. The new version of GTKstep that uses themes has them back at either end of the bar. :-(

not anti-X though

[pohl]

...the dream of having only one standard GUI interface is so anti-linux that i am amazed that someone will even bring it up.

I suppose that you have to be able to look beyond your own individual GUI tastes and freedoms to see the intent -- which is not to impose One True(tm) GUI upon the geek, but rather to enable someone to easily impose One True(tm) GUI upon their users in a business. Like it or not, letting every drone in a corporate beehive apply personalized warpaint to their tools is a recipie for a disaster within the tech-support department.

You may be surprised to learn that this is actually consistent with a long tradition of consultants & IT departments that provide X11-based solutions to their users. The argument is that X allows you to set up a desktop where the only available operations are those that allow the user to use/maintain the applications that you provide, which is about as close to idiot-proof as one can get. In a setting where most of your users can barely figure out the semantics of mouse-control, this is a good thing.

NeXTstep found good middle-ground in the enterprise, giving end-users freedom to install local applications if they needed to, but not so much freedom that they could make life miserable for tech-support. The kicker: the GUI was designed so that it made an intelligent personal choice as well: the use of color only where it adds information, scroll adjustments that minimized mouse-travel, blah blah blah...