State of the Gnome Address 94
Booker writes "Miguel has posted a status report of the Gnome project to the Gnome mailing list. A good summary of what's been done, and what remains. And an admission that Gnome 1.0 might have been a leeeetle bit premature. Many packages are up to 1.0.8, and in my experience, they are vastly improved since the 1.0.0 days. Also, RHLabs has released a full set of Gnome RPMS for RH 5.2 systems, with all the latest stuff. "
I'll wait for 2.0..... (Score:1)
Maybe when they decide it's 2.0 I'll try it again...it really does look like it will be a great window manager!
Rain on the parade (Score:1)
KDE and Gnome only support a few token apps that offer no real productivity gains. Hence, they are a waste of time. If you really want to see an interface that truly increases productivity, watch an experienced Mac user for a bit. Its the graphical equivalent of watching a shell master work the keyboard.
eh? (Score:1)
I use kwrite for all my Perl coding, I use kfm for file management and web browsing. Kuickshow for imageviewing. The kterms, of course. knotes for sticky notes (thought it was gay at first, but I use it daily now for quick reminders). kmail for email, krn for news, kppp for connecting to my ISP... kmp3 for mp3s...
I could use StarOffice for wordprocessing, as it integrates well with QT and KDE, if I wanted/needed too, but I'm happy with WordPerfect.
Plenty of apps for me, thanks.
Before KDE I was stuck with CLI and pico, ugh. Since KDE my productivity has gone up.
You can stick with your vanilla WM or just a bunch of xterms if you want... I'm going to go get more work done.
uselinux@email.com
Confirmation (Score:1)
seems to have gone belly up, though. Can't get her to appear on the panel, but that doesn't cause the panel to crash.
The neatest applet is the ppp connector. Somehow it auto-configured and worked just by clicking the button. Perhaps it read the ppp config files I had during installation.
With Enlightenment, I'm starting to feel once again what I felt when first using an Amiga ca. 1989. It has the right feeling - and I haven't even downloaded and tried any of the far-out themes yet. Using the E WMaker look alike and the default Gtk theme for now.
Gnome Midnite Cmdr seems very stable - but I haven't tried all the customization as I have with the Kde fmgr yet. So far, none of the crashes reported with 1.0 version using gmc.
This comes after being very critical of Gnome and RedHat's investment in Gnome. I guess that was because I felt Gnome was getting too much publicity which was unwarranted. It was, but that has changed with a more stable release that one can actually use to do work on a Linux box!
Stuff that seems missing or very inconvenient:
1. Most Gnome appls use Netscape for on-line help. The should use the Gnome Help browser. Why
load a 25 meg. application just to read a help file?
2. Netscape - period. It's so ugly it makes me want to cry. Please, Mozilla, get something usable out soon. Even though the Kde integrated web browser doesn't read all pages as well as scape, it's prettier and faster and more convenient. There is no way that a Windows user who has used IE4 or 5 will be happy with Netscape 4.5 with Linux - even though it has been remarkable stable on my system.
3. Over-reliance on panel. I wish Gnome (and E) relied more on customizable root menus to handle desktops and tasks. This is much more convenient.
The panel is not bad with auto-hide, but with lots of appls + pager several panels are needed. This is not the case with root menus and submenus. Well, that is something I could work on as a coding project. Menus can also contain the same
images used for panel icons to make them more interesting. It should be fairly easy to add to the root menu something that pops up the main "foot" meny on panel anywhere on screen.
The main point is that Gnome has the right flavor.
I find it very different from Windows. Of course some things are common to almost all desktop systems - Windows, Mac, OS2. Can't say exactly what that quality is, but it's definitely there.
Thanks.
a random thought (Score:1)
I think you are wrong about this. However, I think it will be a good 5 years before the majority of the users use the same desktop and 15 years before nearly everybody uses the same desktop.
There is no reason that you wouldn't have a "standard" desktop available that is infinitely customizable. This I think will be the end result.
Gnome Vastly improved - (Score:2)
3 icons are missing from the gftp rpm.....keeps gftp from starting up. start it from a term window you'll see which ones are missing-- fire up the gimp and make some replacements
Some times gnome and e pause while they're starting and or shutting down.....but if you give it a few minutes it takes off again.
I highly reccommend all those that had problems with 1.0 give it a try.
Also alot of people complained about gnome being released too early. True that alot of people ended up with a bad impression of gnome but on the other hand it enabled alot more bugs to found and killed. Although not still perfect, the difference between 1.0 and 1.05 will show others just how fast people in the linux community can fix bugs.
cool :) (Score:1)
---
GNOME debs exist (Score:1)
Check out the entry in the GNOME FAQ [gnome.org].
My personal bug... (Score:1)
..is that the panel crashes almost all the time when you right click and select "properties" anywhere in the panel. The first time is usually OK, then the second or third time, when you close the properties dialog down it goes, taking X with it. Also, and this one applies to the KDe team as well...remember people with multi-head setups!!! The panel doesn't work when I try to start it on display
-W.W.
My personal bug... (Score:1)
Alright! I installed the latest version and the panel-crashing bug seems to be gone. Hooray. Now all you people need to do is address the multi-head concerns and make double clicking on files open them in a text editor by default. I once hacked the gnome mime types file to do this, but unfortunetly lost the changes I made and have been unable to manage it since. However, I can live without a file manager for now, and since my desktop no longer crashes, I would consider this release a positive step forward. Good work GNOME team!
-W.W.
My personal bug... (Score:1)
very doubtful (Score:1)
Diversity is good, as long as it means that I can make decisions, eg about the look&feel of widgets. It's not good if the developer decides for me and I have to use applications with differently behaving widgets.
a random thought (Score:1)
There are so many toolkits available for X that we are *NOT* going to have a common look and feel standard, period. Linux is about diversity - we don't have to reinvent the wheel once for every toolkit.
well (Score:1)
nothing really is "meant" for gnome or kde, imho. KDE is just Qt, drag'n'drop, WM hints & mime types right now, Gnome is similar.
of course, when the component model for each environment because usable, sure then we'll see some dissimilarities. but for now, it's just a bunch of libraries.. it's easy to have both sets on your system.
innovation (Score:1)
very doubtful (Score:2)
within 15 years, desktops will be irrelevant.
Furthermore, with all of the philosophical wars about vi vs. emacs, bsd vs. linux, and kde vs. gnome, I think you're being a little optimistic about the "one desktop utopia". the Linux crowd wants diversity - and mainstreamers aren't going to change that because the Linux crowd *develops* this stuff. Gnome isn't going to take over unless all the KDE people jump off a cliff - not going to happen.
innovation (Score:3)
Isn't it a twing ironic that the Gnome component model is based upon OLE2?
OLE2 is a decent piece of technology, though it is/was rather complicated to use. The thing is - it was developed over 6 years ago.
Wouldn't it be nice if people went back to the drawing board to think about what _fundamentally_ should be done with regards to how software components & user interfaces interrelate?
The only stabs at advanced UI software integration have been OpenDoc, and Taligent CommonPoint. Both were technically sound, but both failed.
OpenDoc for business/political reasons (Java killed it - ask IBM & Apple) and asthetic reasons [not EVERYTHING in this world is a document].
Taligent failed because it was ahead of its team (it was fat & slow) and it was released in 1995, coincidentally the same time as another OS that we all know about.
Why hasn't anyone tried to learn from the failure of these models? OpenDoc is a free download from IBM's site, with some source code (none of the internals yet i don't think).
Intead of starting with OLE2, wouldn't it have been better to start from "what is needed", and then pick & choose from what OLE2, OpenDoc, OS/2 SOM, etc. did well? There could potentially be so much more to a GUI than the compound documents/object linking & embedding that OLE2 provides...
Now, I know talk is cheap & actions are where its at. (I do intend to act on this eventually. ) I just think it would be great if the open source model came out with something as lucrative as a next-gen GUI, instead of a commercial company.
But, for whatever reasons, open source mavens seem to have difficulties with understanding how the common user "thinks" with regards to a GUI. This isn't a flame, it's an observation. For this reason, my bets are on the company, for now.
KDE Programs in GNOME menu? (Score:1)
I can help though. Have a look at this page [geocities.com] I put together a few months back. You'll find the means to add Gnome panel menus that ape the KDE and the CDE menu systems, as menu buttons on the Gnome Panel.
I think this is what you're trying to do? Since the screenshots on there were done, I've started using the KDE image from /. for that Menu =O)
innovation (Score:1)
Huh? Why are you thinking GNOME is cloning OLE2? AFAICS, it's exactly following the process you wanted to see, i.e. comb the best out of all object models, while keeping in mind that GNOME wants to be cross-platform, based on CORBA, etc.
On the other hand, there is the XPCOM project going on heavily at Mozilla, which might even provide something really close to MS things, ignoring how valuable is that :) Of course, licensing issues between GPL/LGPL/MPL/NPL are to be sorted out by the project that wants to use both...
I dunno... (Score:1)
Maturation (Score:1)
hmmmm...
not ease of use = total world domination
??????
Release Stratagem (Score:1)
On the other hand, it does encourage people to try it out and gets a lot more eyes on it.
On the third hand (I grew it just for you, baby), if people are anticipating the release, and it's not up to snuff, your project can lose face, and keep people away from it, long-term.
I'm still waiting to be able to run Gimp and Gnome with the same version of GTK... stupid interface changes. Now don't change the INTERFACE of a library after version 1, unless it's backwards compatible, or you have a good ORB setup going...
Or is all this fixed, now? I'm not as up to date on all this as I should be.
GNOME debs exist (Score:1)
Daniel
GNOME worked out of the box for me ... (Score:1)
installed the GNOME stuff,
added "gnome-session" to the end of
my
The upgrade itself was all of
"apt-get update ; apt-get upgrade".
Pretty cool stuff.
eh? (Score:1)
"Pandering to the truly mule-headed" (Score:1)
Maybe Microsoft isn't all bad? (Score:2)
embedding are based on Microsoft's OLE2; cleaned of "historical problems" of course. I would say "maybe Microsoft is not all bad?" but I don't want to be flame broiled.
Hey, the smart learn when not to totally reinvent the wheel. And a great many smart people put many smart ideas into Microsoft products. Unfortunetly, with Microsoft product quality control, they never got seperated from the bad stuff, and they never got their bugs knocked out.
Cathedral Versus Bazzar, my friend. (Score:1)
Release Early and Release Often... (Score:1)
That's my philosophy.
availability (Score:1)
a random thought (Score:1)
I've considered having Gnome and KDE running at the same time so I can run everything that appears on Freshmeat, but I think my head would explode.
My personal bug... (Score:1)
This is under WindowMaker, but I doubt that has any relevance.
KDE Programs in GNOME menu? (Score:1)
I'll wait for 2.0.....(NOT) (Score:2)
I liked the 1.0.0 release well enough to start using it full time. I was willing to live with all the problems you mentioned. I followed each supplemental release and the problems never really went away.
Until now.
Session mangement alone makes this a worthwile improvement (it won't open tons of windows). I've also noticed a big speed improvement while switchng desktops ( and each desktop has it's own background image).
I'm sure 2.0 will be a much better product, but this latest build seems to be a *HUGE* improvement over 1.0.0. It's really pretty amazing.
-Alan
Buggified (Score:2)
Keep up the good work gnome dev guys, you've got an excellent model, and a good product. But don't rush it. I waited a long time for Quake to be released, I'm sure (atleast I can) we can wait until it's really ready for prime-time.
--
Buggified (Score:1)
that miracle. I installed RedHat 5.9 with the
latest Gnome that comes with the CD (1.03).
I thought it was the greatest thing until I
realize that it would bomb out every time
I would try to play a Gnome game. The KDE games
loaded OK. I also found out that any sound
program would do the same.
After zillions of core dumps I checked to see
if the sound worked correctly under the console.
It did. I use 4-front software by the way.
I then installed Mandrake 5.3 which works
rock solid with KDE. Gnome may be neat but is
not ready for release.
http://www.netonecom.net/~bbcat
KDE Programs in GNOME menu? (Score:1)
I'd love to try JUST GNOME again, but find it annoying to run Kapps by the command line.
I already found a perl script to convert GNOME apps into the Kpanel, and ther is an option on the GNOME panel to include KDE apps, but it doesn't seem to work. Does anyone know how I can have my Kapps converted in to the GNOME menu?
Thanks,
Ben
BTW, GMC 4.5.30 DOES seem very stable, and GNOME actually closes when I end my session. Way to go guys!!
KDE Programs in GNOME menu? (Score:1)
*sigh* (Score:3)
I downloaded the sources not three nights ago.
On the other hand, the improvement is more than noticeable, and the less than instant gratification of compiling it all was worth it.
My box provides KDE for my housemate, because I didn't want her to deal with GNOME 1.0's less-than-stellar performance. I was using GNOME for myself. I won't put GNOME in front of her quite yet, but jeepers it's much better from what I can see over the last three days.
In particular the session management is less buggy, GNOME mc doesn't core every time I start a new X session, and the panel doesn't mysteriously "lose" applets every now and then.
Having finally gone out and compiled the thing for myself, I feel like I can also finally address the comments people made about how hard it is to install:
There are handy instructions on which order to build the source packages in. Even if you don't read them, a notepad (or vi in an open xterm, for that matter) is more than adequate to document what each ./configure script throws up on. There's no rocket science involved here. With the RPM's out for the improved stuff GNOME's definitely a competitor again.
In terms of "ease of installation," though, I'd note that KDE ships RPM's in a giant tarball with accompanying scripts for installation. Maybe that will be GNOME's next step, though there comes a point where you're just pandering to the truly mule-headed and willfully obtuse.
All that aside, anyone who saw the promise but walked away from 1.0 disappointed ought to take a look at the newest releases. They've cleaned up a lot in very little time.
----------
mphall@cstone.nospam.net
My personal bug... (Score:1)
Multi-head is a little tricky. GNOME 1.0 won't do it all that cleanly now. There is a mechanism (sort of) in place involving sessions, but it will require some work. I expect it to be under control by the next major release.
-Jonathan (jrb@redhat.com) (this is not my account)
rpm -ta [tarball] (Score:1)
BadPixmap GdkERROR (Score:1)
KDE Programs in GNOME menu? (Score:1)
If you compile gnome-core from source, configure it like "./configure --with-kde-datadir=/opt/share" (I think thats the flag, something like that.)
but from average people (Score:1)
BadPixmap GdkERROR (fixed) (Score:1)
This problem has been fixed with this release.
You wouldn't want us to release early or often ... (Score:1)
Your analogy to microsoft falls down since 1.0.0 is no longer the latest version -- we fixed many of the bugs (rather than denying their existance or calling them features, which MS seems to do). If projects didn't release new versions till they were completely bug free, you wouldn't see linux 2.2 yet (and many of the subsequent bugs would not have been found and fixed, because the user base would be an order of magnitude smaller).
Maybe Microsoft isn't all bad? (Score:1)
As for document model interaction between KDE and GNOME, Miguel is planning on writing Qt/KDE bindings for bonobo, the GNOME document model. It is concievable that this could then be wrapped in KDE's OpenParts thing allowing interaction.
I would not recommend writing an app to either doc model yet, as they will both probably change more (bonobo is still being coded, and has yet to be integrated into any GNOME apps) before stabilising.
You disproved you whole comment. (Score:1)
*sigh* (Score:1)
Untar the sources. Say it's gnome-libs. Get gnome-lib.spec, put it in
Put gnome-libs-whatever.tar.gz in
Then rpm -bb --rmsource --clean
Yay, I have an RPM now, compiled with pgcc, optimized for my K6-2, weeks before there would be an official RPM.
*sigh* (Score:1)
require_vendor: 0
distribution: Red Hat 5.2
require_distribution: 0
topdir:
vendor: None
packager: Andrew Chatham
optflags: i386 -O6 -mamdk6 -march=amdk6
tmppath:
I then did mv
Is 1.0.8 any better than 1.0.4 stuff? (Score:1)
1.0.8 is much better than 1.0.4. I've been struggling with GNOME compiles since the original 1.0, and my experience is that the rough spots are gone, and it's really 1.0 caliber now.
Make sure you upgrade gnome-libs to 1.0.8 and mc to 4.5.30.
Kudos to RHAD labs for getting the RPMs out so fast. Since I've already got everything I want compiled now with egcs, I won't be grabbing the RPMs, but since I'm one of the folks who've been complaining on the GNOME lists about the lack of RPM support, it's great to see these RPMs go up so fast now that Miguel and team believe they have GNOME 1.0 stabilized.
As for WindowMaker -- GNOME and WindowMaker are supposed to play nice together. I've done it myself, although I haven't tried swithing window managers from the control center. Make sure you have the latest GNOME-enabled WindowMaker (0.51.2, IIRC). Also, you'd do everyone a favor by reporting this to the GNOME bug list [gnome.org]. As a workaround, try putting
wmaker &panel
in your .xinitrc, then starting X. GNOME should then Do The Right Thing via session management from now on (and you can replace those lines in .xinitrc with gnome-session instead).
Attn: Moderators or someone with a clue... (Score:1)
Is there something about the alignment system I missed? This morning I was set at 3 or so, and now all my posts are at 1. Is there some sort of decay system or reset system I didn't catch in all the changes Slashdot went through?
Emailing me is fine. I check often enough that a reply in Slashdot will also be caught. My score is also low enough that this post shouldn't clutter the Gnome article/thread too much
Sorry for the spam, as it were...
AS
GNOME worked out of the box for me ... (Score:1)
Gimp 1.0.4 uses Gtk 1.2.x (Score:1)
I'm using gnome+gimp together with no problems (and a consistent theme throughout (BrushedMetal)
gimp 1.0.4 also has a few other bugfixes. It's worth upgrading.
Does the file manager work now? (Score:1)
*sigh* (Score:1)
Maybe Microsoft isn't all bad? (Score:2)
While I'm downloading the new set of GNOME RPMs, I'll give you my take on the GNOME status report. I'd consider myself a totally partial observer here, since I use both GNOME and KDE.
I'm glad that Miguel is admitting that GNOME 1.0 was a little premature. When your stated goal is addressing the user-friendly/GUI side of Linux, your 1.0 release should be rock solid and as easy-to-install and configure as possible. They released too early. A nice script to automate the install of the RPMs (like KDE has) would have helped too.
With the level of Microsoft bashing that you encounter here and around Linux folks in general, it is interesting to see the Microsoft influences in GNOME and KDE. KDE sure looks and feels like Windows, that Display Properties dialog is practically a clone. And now, in the GNOME status report, we see that the concepts underlying the new GNOME document object model for object linking and embedding are based on Microsoft's OLE2; cleaned of "historical problems" of course. I would say "maybe Microsoft is not all bad?" but I don't want to be flame broiled.
The status report mentions that the GNOME document object model is being implemented using GTK objects. This sure would be a nice place for some KDE/GNOME collaboration. As a component developer, I would like to be able to write a component that could be distributed as a binary that would work in both a KDE or a GNOME application. Since KDE and GNOME are both based, at the lower levels on X and CORBA this does not seem impossible. Difficult maybe, but not impossible.
Thats all for now...- Dave
definitely a sound problem (Score:1)
rpm -ta [tarball] (Score:1)
To RPM or not to RPM. (Score:1)
The improvement of GNOME (Score:1)
Maturation (Score:2)
sick...
Anyway, I am so glad to see Gnome maturing. This is the pre-eminent (No flames, KDE folks) easy to use GUI. I've been using it for about six months now and am in love. With the 1.08, it finally and officially passed the "Mom Test" (Well, dad, but mom ain't around) when he was able to access several files and get on the internet with it. Not bad for a 60 year old Micrso~1 user!
With the "Mom Test" passed, I am very pleased with Gnome and the new users it can attract!
!Ease of use = Total World Domination
"Responsibility for my career? I'm just a freakin' phone monkey!"
I LOVE GNOME! GREAT JOB (Score:3)
Anyway, this thing is awesome. I like gdm, enlightenment choice, but will get any decent windowmaker rpm that works with gnome!
Still, there are things that don't work like misplaced windows on the pager or like when it sends you to the wrong part of desktop when clicking on an app that is already there! Paging is not that solid yet! Is it gnome's fault or enlightenment's one, that nukes unused desktops out of memory from time to time?
Anywway, these are details. I haven't had a "general protection fault", nor did I have to hard reset my machine.
Plus, this thing is far superior to Windows95/98 GUI, and unix's CDE.
Now for KDE, it's hard to tell. I still like gnome better but it's a matter of taste (NOT LIC.). I also noted it ate less memory than KDE or CDE!
Great job, gnome people, and rhlabs people and whoever worked on this.
I would offer you beer if I had the cash!