Mozilla M5 Released 174
Only minutes ago, the 5th Mozilla milestone (aka M5) was reached. Interested parties
may download it from the mozilla.org ftp site. Mozilla.org
head-honcho Mike Shaver says "Yes [I am pleased with the recent progress on mozilla]. Our memory leak count is
way down due to the efforts of Bruce Mitchener, Scott Collins, and Mike Pinkerton." Go get it.
Not fast enough (Score:1)
Sorry, I use what's best, not what's most politically correct.
Rendering bugs (Score:1)
was supposed to have some sophisticated renderer?
I guess that's sophisticated as in "breaks your
current web page".
Re:Not fast enough (Score:1)
YES! Now Browser crash wont take my email with it (Score:1)
Can't find a better linux IMAP4 client than
netscape messenger.
Only problem: When NS4.51 crashes, there goes my email.
In the pro/con NS/IE5 it should be mentioned thata browser crash does not take outlook express with it.
So, perhaps running Mozzilla as a browser and NS4.51 messenger for mail will be a good solution...
Re:OT: Memory leaks? GC no help for the real probl (Score:1)
Even Mozilla M5 has problems with Slashdot banners (Score:1)
Re:OT: Memory leaks? GC no help for the real probl (Score:1)
I address the real, root-cause bugs: inconsistent state.
And GC allows the state of memory allocation/reclamation to be consistent automatically.
Adding an external hack to hide the more benign instances of this bug gains
GC is not a external hack, nor even a hack. It a very useful language technology. As for your second point: Memory management errors are not benign at all.
Hiding bugs doesn't count in my world... fixing them does.
Automatic memory management does not hide bugs. It eliminates a whole class of bugs from even being a possibility.
Re:Easy to install.. (Score:2)
Easy to install.. (Score:3)
I bet M5 will be a turning point for Mozilla progress.
Less mozilla FUD, more clarity! (Score:4)
**************
Major congratulations all who have contributed to the Mozilla project and endless thanks to the Netscape employees ana management who are bending over back-asswards to make this spectacular software happen...
This is the last great hope for humanity to bring open standards, consistency, structure, and freedom to the world wide web. Think that is a grandiose statement? You will support open standards and mozilla and eat your words. Or else we can either suffer at the hands of the Microsoft/Netscape buglists for the next fifty years or much much more.
Let's run this down for the unitiated.
**************
Mozilla is NOT NETSCAPE. Mozilla is Open Source with a very very very liberal license that deserves reading and support (IMHO).
Mozilla is going to consist of two releases. Netscape 5.0 will be built with the mozilla code. This will not be open source, because stuff like a Java machine, SSL, and probably other commercial plugins will come with it. The OTHER RELEASE WHICH YOU WILL BE/ARE ABLE TO HACK ON TO DEATH is the Mozilla.org browser. It will NOT have proprietary crap in it but WILL have JNI (Java Native Interface?) hookups so you can drop THE BEST JAVA MACHINE OF YOUR CHOICE in. Crypto hookups will probably not be in the official codebase for very legitimate legal reasons.
Here's the feature list and a comparison with The Other Browser.
Internet Explorer 5.
*********************
Sort of Javascript.
Sort of Java machine that sucks enormous rocks.
Loads fast. Displays fast. (Pentium only please)
HTML 1,2,3,4 incomplete, majorly buggy in areas.
CSS1 badly incomplete/buggy (mostly unusable).
CSS2 badly incomplete/buggy (unusable).
DHTML badly hacked together with bad bad proprietary behaviors.
MASSIVE BLOAT. Around 30 megs installed for core functionality. 6 meg download minimum.
Exceptionally clean, largely hard-coded UI.
Exceptionally useful mailreader included. (Outlook Express 5)
Brain-damaged XML.
Extraordinarily bad, almost alien DOM.
Mediocre support for XSL, a COMPLETELY INCOMPLETE standard being rammed through the W3C with major assistance by Microsoft. (Perhaps they need features for Office 2000)
Microsoft Windows or certain Macintosh platforms only. (Solaris does NOT COUNT)
Horridly unreliable installation procedure.
Extreme work put into making MS-friendly web-apps, websites, and scripting easy.
Bleeds memory.
PNG broke. But those animated gifs sure are purty. Hyuck.
Integrated with OS to extreme degree.
If not given own process, brings down explorer.exe (MS's "windowing manager" as it were) when it breaks. (every hour or so)
Cost: Free, as long as you write pages to the MS standard please.
Gimmick:feature ratio: 9:3 (channels count for 4, remember those?)
Things done right: User interface and simplicity. Easy to implement interactions with a Windows environment. Usable by many. Quick.
Mozilla + Netscape 5.0 (at release in a few months, most standards complete already)
**********************
COMPLETE REWRITE OF LAYOUT ENGINE AND MOST FUNCTIONALITY.
HTML 1,2,3,4 to-the-spec complete.
CSS1 to-the-spec complete.
CSS2 not promised, but largely functional.
RDF ready to roll.
Dynamic reflow of pages.
To-the-spec Javascript (ECMAscript) complete.
Whichever Java Machine you prefer, or a Netscape licensed one.
Very quick. Lightning quick at most tasks. A vast vast improvement over NS4 and extremely competitive with IE5. A 386 may apply.
Legacy/standard DHTML all ready to roll.
EXTREMELY EFFICIENT. Minimal size. 4 MEGS download for browser and e-mail client prior to optimization.
100% CUSTOMIZABLE CROSS PLATFORM USER INTERFACE. YOU CAN WRITE ONE YOURSELF IN 15 MINUTES! I am an idiot at computers and I have done this myself. Don't want a button or menu? DELETE IT IN MOMENTS. Want something clean? Busy? Animated? Obnoxious? THEMED? Do it in MOMENTS. The technology is completely open, called eXtensible User interface Language (XUL) or something like that. NO BINARIES, JUST TEXT. You will soon be able to ROLL YOUR OWN on the web.
GTK widgetry when used in *nix. NOT ONE SHRED OF MOTIF.
Exceptionally useful Open Source mailreader included.
Precise, to the letter XML.
Precise, to the letter DOM.
Incomplete standards will be included when they are user tested, reliable, and DONE.
Install with whatever method/packaging you prefer. Like the mozilla.org browser? Pull the tarball and COMPILE IT YOURSELF.
Probable ICQ and AOL AIM attached with the NS5 downloads. Highly integrated if installed probably.
As bug-free as YOU WANT IT TO BE. I am a dillweed who couldn't code my way out of a wet paper bag and yet bugzilla.mozilla.org let me report and get fixed a bug in the image layout.
Drop in any image format you want thanks to a standardized image processing interface.
Bug-emulation mode for the horrendously shitty IE and NS browsers.
Extremely modular.
It supports a few platforms... Obscure shit, nothing you'd use, like, oh say...
Linux 2.x
Windows 95/98/OSRx/SPx/Mystery Upgrade X
Windows NT
Solaris Whatever Version
IRIX Whatever Version
Amiga Whatever Ya'll Use
OS/2
MacOS
BeOS
*BSD(?) (linux binary hosting?)
These are not promised, they are either complete or in progress.
Oh and if you've got a few buds and a few weeks you can port the mofo to whatever platform your little heart desires. The GRUNT WORK HAS BEEN DONE. Just give XPCOM a place to set it's feet, hook up some shit, and you're done.
Cost: Free. As in beer, freedom, and bug-free.
Things done right: Technically, almost everything. As GOOD AS IT GETS. Light on memory. Light on cycles. Complete from head to toe. Free. Hackable. Yours. Forever.
****************
Okay, let's clear up a few remaining issues some people still have with this WONDER PROJECT.
"But ironhead, JWZ said it sucked and was dead!"
JWZ unnecessarily badmouthed a project that is about as dead as the sun. He's a great guy I suppose, but taking a leak on a technically excellent project sucked and was in bad form. He will use Mozilla and so will you.
"But ironhead, it's a dead project because no-one is hacking it! It's AOL's project!"
Gee, guess OPEN SOURCE is a code word for AOL DevTeam now. It's an INCREDIBLY DIFFICULT PROJECT TO DO RIGHT and NS/AOL has oh-so-graciously spent a small fortune on giving us the great developers who are intelligently crafting greatest software tool you will get to use this decade. So what if only 30 people are actively involved in the code from the outside. A few tens of thousands are helping in every other way. Millions will use it. NeoPlanet is donating developers now. So are other companies soon. THIS IS A GOOD THING.
"But ironhead, it's slow on my Linux box!"
Well gee, guess we should abort it at pre-alpha stage and live with NS4.. It's called debug code, and NOT OPTIMIZED YET.
"But ironhead, lynx is better!"
It's a tool. So is Mozilla. They do not fight. You can install both and they will never do battle. And grandma doesn't use lynx, does she? We've GOT ROOM FOR BOTH, FOLKS. Actually, we've got room for both four times over after we delete NS4.
"But ironhead, it'll come out too late! Microsoft won!"
JESUS CHRIST! Why do I hear this daily? WHERE IS THE INTERNET GOING FOLKS? Is there an expiration date on HTML? XML? SGML? Linux took 9 years, Windows took 9 years, computers took 40 years... This is only taking a year and it's nearing completion. CHRIST! The only thing that the spread of Internet Explorer is doing is lengthening the amount of time it'll take to phase out RETARDED WEB DESIGN.
"But ironhead, CSS1 is dead!"
PLEASE. PLEASE. Get a clue, look at the source of many sites, and look up a word called INTRANET in the dictionary. Why this one is brought up mystifies me.
"But ironhead, Netscape's browsers suck!"
PLEASE. 80% NEW CODE. OPEN SOURCE. YOURS TO HACK. YOURS TO MODIFY. NOT NETSCAPE, YOU. If Mozilla sucks it's because you have NO SKILLS at programming/hacking and are to be LAUGHED AT and you're happy to crash every 5 minutes with Netscape 4.x.
"I like IEx"
Me too, when in windows. Why dontcha write up a XUL interface in about 5 minutes and make a precise clone of it? That doesn't suck? And won't crash?
"But the build I downloaded broke on my favorite page! Mozilla sucks!"
Well let's see here, why would we have a problem with a PRE ALPHA? HMMMMMMM.... It's either a bug in the largely un-hooked-up javascript, bug elsewhere that you need to report to bugzilla.mozilla.org, non-standards-compliant website coding, or something that just ISN'T FINISHED YET. Perhaps we could read the fscking RELEASE NOTES? The layout engine is almost complete and is a work of art. Plus it has compatibility mode to work around Netscape's and Microsoft's horrible bugs.
***************
A few other things: it is NOT DONE YET. NOT DONE YET. IT WILL NEVER BE DONE AS IT IS OPEN SOURCE.
You may spend as much time as you like writing your own 31337 browser, but if you care to save yourself a few years you may use any COMPONENT OF THE COMPONETIZED, OPEN SOURCE mozilla code.
That's all there is folks. Mozilla.org will be great without your support and extraordinary with it. Please keep turning in bugs, please keep testing out the builds, please keep your MOUTH SHUT if you have opinions like "its dead because microsoft killed it and ie5 is better and mozilla sux cuz it loads up slow the first time.", please keep working towards an internet that has solid technology, open standards, and universal accessibility by all. It's time for javascript trix to step. It's time for crashes to step. It's time for Out Of The Spec HTML and CSSx to work PRECISELY. It's time for no more embarassing layout. It's time for NO MORE BROWSER-VALIDATION. (Does it work in ie3, nope, rewrite!) It's time for open source tools that get the job done right. It's time to stop dicking around with pathetic pseudo-standards. It's time for rock-solid internet browsing services on any platform we choose. It's time for cross compatibility, n-th degree customization, easy extensibility, and incremental debugging.
We have been given a great chance by some visionaries at Netscape to do the internet the Right Way and it doesn't matter how many installs of IEx that MS makes up, OPEN STANDARDS WILL WIN! Please download and start exploring/testing, or wait until a final release is made so you can get hacking.
http://www.mozilla.org
http://www.mozillazine.org
ftp://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla/releases/m5/
Sheesh, chapter 2 in the morning.
Don't /. effect the bugtracker pleez... (Score:4)
Example: "It's slow loading this page" is weak. "It's slow while rendering a png image inside of a box element, as shown in this test file" is submission worthy.
Please read this and the release notes before some poor gal gets assigned a million bajillion "the toolbar hidey buttons don't work" reports.
http://www.mozilla.org/quality/bug-writing-guid
Re:Keyboard combos (Score:1)
I've had it explode reliably and cleanly while rendering www.cbc.ca [www.cbc.ca] three times in a row now. There are other eccentricities -- looks like it hangs if a page I'm trying to view is already in the cache, for instance, and the handling of JavaScript mouseover twitches is incomplete.
Anyone who tells you to junk your current Win9x browser and use M5 is either delusional or malicious.
On the plus side, M4 threw three fatal-looking errors just starting up on my Win95 machine. M5 starts cleanly and lets me turn off some of the superfluous toolbars. No question that progress is being made, and some pages just fly up on the screen.
Now, if someone would just make it so that the scrollbar thumbs didn't blink. What, are they trying to remind me that I just used them?
Clarification. (Score:1)
That was a pre-emptive warning more than anything else, fear not. Sooner or later, some doofus posts on Slashdot advocating just about anything...
Re:Not fast enough (Score:1)
Informed people read release notes BEFORE posting (Score:5)
Please also note that posting complaints, or half formed bug reports do virtually no good in the Slashdot forum besides inflaming troll like feelings or pointing developers in directions that they should not be headed in.
More informed users would be better served by checking out the well written bug reporting documentation located here! [mozilla.org]
I want to die peacefully in my sleep as my grandfather did...
Bookmarks Don't Work? (Score:2)
Re:Using java? They tried that already. (Score:1)
wellformed-ness, entities and expat (Score:1)
The layout guys -- including the guy who is responsible for integrating expat into the layout engine -- tell me that expat does handle well-formedness and entities (though maybe not ``PEntities''? What are those?).
In fact, the switch to the expat parser found a pile of well-formedness errors in our XUL files, so I'm pretty sure they're correct. Maybe you need a newer version of expat?
Re:advertised as Beta, performs as pre-Alpha (Score:1)
If we've advertised M5 as a beta, I must apologize: it is certainly not beta quality (perhaps not even alpha, as if anyone agrees on what those terms mean) yet.
If anyone out there finds something describing M5 as a beta, please mail webmaster@mozilla.org and we'll get it fixed. Thanks.
M5 is simply the fifth milestone, and will be followed in three weeks by M6. There's no beta here, and I promise that everyone will hear _all_ about it when the first beta is released.
Re:Memory leaks (Score:1)
FYI, the esteemed Bruce Mitchener and his many clones produce frequent Purify reports and file dozens of good bugs (with fixes, often) from the results.
Re:Memory leaks (Score:1)
There is a garbage collection mechanism in the Mozilla codebase, in the form of the reference counting provided by XPCOM (AddRef/Release, thank MS/DEC COM for the poor names).
The basic problem, as Scott Collins described very well in his posting to mozilla.builds, is one of ownership model (objects owning objects, not people owning code). This problem doesn't go away by using mark-and-sweep or any other GC technique: you still need to have a Grand Plan for which objects root other objects, and which have weak refs, etc.
While all the GC weenies are here, though, I have a question: does the Boehm GC allow weak refs?
Re:How to configure?? (Score:1)
If the stuff in the release notes about font size doesn't work for you, you should file a bug.
Does your X server report the correct DPI for your monitor?
No -geometry support, as with all GTK apps.
Re:Does it still require GNOME? (Score:1)
You can have both gtk 1.0 and gtk 1.2 on your system at the same time. I do, right now. Just make sure that you only have one _devel_ RPM or equivalent.
Re:Font size (Score:1)
Five bucks says you're using X.
Ten says your X server is reporting a DPI that doesn't match your actual screen.
Fifty says you didn't read the release notes, where they tell you about an environment variable that lets you scale the fonts.
If I'm wrong, I'll pay up at Linux Expo (plug, plug).
Re:Wake me when KDE FE arrives. (Score:1)
Bring me the code, and I'll slap it in the tree so fast it'll make your Qt-loving head spin.
Re:Ironic? (Score:2)
In the course of your in-depth investigation, you no doubt discovered that the page in question was authored by Adam Lock, an external contributor.
Speaking for mozilla.org, we really don't mind people using whatever tools they want to write documentation for their contributions. Rumour has it that mozilla needs MS VC++ to compile on Win32, too!
The shame!
Re:wellformed-ness, entities and expat (Score:2)
You are quite right. My apologies.
Re:M5 v. IE5 beta 1 (Score:1)
Do you have this problem? Is Rob intentionally driving IE users nuts?
Re:M5 v. IE5 beta 1 (Score:1)
Actually, it turns out IE was handling it better than Netscape 4.51, which would just sit and spin its wheels. I had just downloaded the new Mozilla -- which didn't render the page right, but didn't wig out either -- so had been using that as the basis for judgement. So of the latest non-development browsers from the Big Two, best implementation goes to IE5.
Re:Rendering bugs (Score:1)
Re:Less mozilla FUD, more clarity! (Score:2)
MOZILLA BINARIES FOR SOLARIS? (Score:1)
purify rocks (Score:1)
And for those who suggest Java, hahahaha. Check out the jdk bug lists on image manipulation memory leaks with java if you really believe that Java will solve all your problems.
me too (on SuSE 6) (Score:1)
wow (Score:1)
a lot faster, and renders slashdot beautifully...
Re:Less mozilla FUD, more clarity! (Score:2)
Mozilla's XML support uses Expat. That means no validation, no support for PEntities, no external DTD support. IE's XML parser supports all of this (although validation isn't generally performed in the browser, it's still available to developers as a DLL or OLE control). Now, let me also say that I use expat every single day and it's a great parser. Fast too.
Mozilla has zero plans for XSL support. That's bad news. They hope someone might contribute it, but that's still looking unlikely, even given the prize money available. Microsoft also did something bad - providing XSL support before the standard is ratified. What the hell are they thinking of? Now everyone must make sure their XSL is backwards compatible to MS's. Duh! But I think you're unfair about the process through which XSL is going through at the W3C.
Having said that - I'm now getting excited about mozilla. If they ship XSL I'll be dancing on the ceiling. If they don't, then I guess I'll get more work doing server side XML transformations
Matt.
perl -e 'print scalar reverse q(\)-:
Re:wellformed-ness, entities and expat (Score:2)
PEntities are parameter entities, another requirement for complex DTD's. I know that expat found well formedness errors in your XUL files, because I was the one logging the bugs about it...
Note though that expat _does_ return enough information to be expandable to support all the above (with the possible exception of validation) - that's how you do it using Perl's XML::Parser.
Matt.
perl -e 'print scalar reverse q(\)-:
Making Netscape more stable (Score:1)
--
Remarkable improvement (Score:1)
Wow. I have to give credit where it's due, and in this case it is. The M5 milestone looks like a tremendous and dramatic improvement over previous incarnations of Mozilla.
I'm posting this comment from M5 right now, and apart from a few minor and a few not-so-minor issues with rendering form widgets, everything feels like its coming together.
Communicator 4.51 is a joke. It should never have been considered releasable software for stability reasons. I hope Mozilla can turn that around. M5 is almost as fast as Communicator, and probably (sadly) almost as stable. With a few more releases and some good bug hunting, we might just have a Quick, Reliable, Standards Compliant web browser for Linux.
Imagine that!
-Seth
Re:Memory leaks (Score:1)
Re:Netscape blocks on dns queries - solution (Score:1)
http://www.junkbuster.com [junkbuster.com].
-- http://www.wholepop.com/ [wholepop.com]
Whole Pop Magazine Online - Pop Culture
Can't wait 'till it's finished. (Score:1)
I can't wait until I have a small, fast, clean, lean web browser that still complies with most standards and offers the most important features.
It's great that we're getting back to what counts, losing some of the feature bloat and returning to a really good program.
Great job Mozilla team, keep up the excellent work!
Re:Proves that Zawinski didn't kill Mozilla (Score:1)
Re:Less mozilla FUD, more clarity! (Score:1)
NS/AOL has oh-so-graciously spent a small fortune on giving us the great developers who are intelligently crafting greatest software tool you will get to use this decade
They have done no such thing. quoting jwz:
"But ironhead, it's slow on my Linux box!"
Well gee, guess we should abort it at pre-alpha stage and live with NS4.. It's called debug code, and NOT OPTIMIZED YET.
Wrong. On Linux, although the speed has improved, it is still slow as molasses, although I guess you can say it's migrated from dark to light molasses. Check out the mozilla.builds ng if you don't believe me. A recent post said much the same thing
It has nothing to do with optimization or debugging code.Re:Memory leaks (Score:1)
Re:advertised as pre-Alpha, performs as Beta (Score:2)
ftp://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla/releases/m5/R
It states clearly:
This directory contains precompiled binaries of Mozilla.
These are pre-alpha. They are not thoroughly tested.
If that is advertising their product as a beta then they need a new advertising department.
If you want to comment on this release get your facts straight first.
--
Anyone built this beast for Alpha? (Score:1)
Re:Keyboard combos (Score:1)
--
Re:Rendering bugs (Score:1)
I haven't finished downloading M5 yet, but the 3/19/1999 Mac build renders the www.nvidia.com page almost right, except that not all the little images line up quite exactly -- they're each pretty close, but there are small white gaps between some. Is that the same as what you're seeing?
Also, does anyone have the URL for that "acid test" page that uses just about every crazy thing the W3C has dreamed up? I'd like to try that one again, but I don't remember where it is. The 3/19 build got that one very nearly perfect, and a lot better than any other browser I have seen try it.
The problems on the nVidia page are a bit disappointing, but given the stage this thing is in, I still think it's very impressive. Just call me one more person who can't wait for this to be really ready.
David Gould
Re:HELP!! (Score:1)
the first time it stopped, i just ran it again, and then it stopped again a little further, and then i ran it again, then it finaly stoped on the editor. i can't remember the exact error, so i just ran configure again with the --disable-editor option, then ran it again, and it went without a hitch. Ran apprunner and viewer and it works fine.
Re:Not fast enough (Score:1)
Re:Mozilla in win32 (Score:1)
Jazilla (Score:1)
Re:Well... (Score:1)
Re:Keyboard combos (Score:1)
Re:OT: Memory leaks? GC no help for the real probl (Score:1)
I don't want to sound rude, but I think I have.
I address the real, root-cause bugs: inconsistent state.
Adding an external hack to hide the more benign instances of this bug gains me nothing, I'm curing a trivial symptom and leaving the cause way open. Hiding bugs doesn't count in my world... fixing them does.
I use a heap walker to show me a list of memory leaks, but I don't then just add a loop to free them all - I want to know what logic faults left them there.
If you want to continue the chat (it is rather OT) then feel free to mail me [mailto]
This thread is nothing but FUD (Score:2)
The original poster goes on to state that "he's just repeating what he's heard" - he makes claims about code quality when he states twice he can't code, he makes claims for compatibility or lack thereof and then admits he doesn't know what he's talking about, and he launches personal attacks on anyone criticising his rambling logic.
Someone moderate it down to -1, please. I don't doubt it's well intentioned, but MS mis-information is bad enough, I'd hope we can not lower ourselves to that level round here.
OT: Memory leaks? GC no help for the real problem (Score:3)
Because memory leaks are only one instance (and are the trivial instance) of a generalised problem, and GC does nothing to solve the more general problem.
The real problem is (I'm going to say objects, but this applies equally to non-OO code, just terminology) when two objects disagree over state. A memory leak is just a single case (one thinks it's free, the other doesn't), but the real serious problems occur when objects aren't initialised, they're initialised twice, they're not saved, they have poorly designed "flux states", they don't notify changes properly, they blindly propogate changes throughout the object-space, etc.
GC does absolutely nothing for this, and, more importantly, no GC "Band-Aid" techniques help with these problems, so I try to write code (and debug) to fix the general problem: the memory leaks are the trivial case - easiest to detect and simplest to fix.
Find me any production program where memory leaks are "the biggest code problem", and I'll show you a project which doesn't even realise where they've really got problems.
Re:Less mozilla FUD, more clarity! (Score:1)
Re:Memory leaks (Score:1)
Z.
Different gtk versions can co-exist (Score:1)
-- Donovan
Re:Random Crashes! (Score:1)
Re:Random Crashes! (Score:1)
Stability (Score:2)
It sure would be nice to be able to run that QNX web browser on Linux...
Blah, 40 minutes left. Gotta get me a DSL...
Re:Less mozilla FUD, more clarity! (Score:1)
However, my experience with Mozilla releases on the 2 major platforms so far (Windoze and Linux) has been most unimpressive. Extremely slow and jerky rendering, many bugs, many if not most buttons and keys non-functional, too many crashes, and the list goes on.
That's not exactly a valid complaint yet. Mozilla is just now halfway to it's planed completion. Saying it's crap because it crashes and buttons don't work is akin to complaining your 10 year old hasn't gotten his PhD in quantium physics yet.
--
James Michael Keller
M9 is *not* the final release (Score:1)
M9 is the current plan for the first public BETA, not the final release.
Re:Easy Way to Report/Discuss Bugs? (Score:1)
Your problems are the sorts of things discussed in netscape.public.mozilla.builds
Re:Slightly less IE FUD (Score:1)
IE5 CSS support is just enough to hurt yourself with. That is, it lets you do a lot of things, but doesn't let you do everything you should be able to. Unfortunately, since these specs are never documented, it becomes difficult to tell if the error is in your own coding of a stylesheet, or in the implementation in IE.
A good article [webreference.com] on IE 5's css support is available.
This goes for every other incomplete implementation of CSS in release browsers. Incomplete is just a subset of wrong.
Re:Bookmarks Don't Work? (Score:1)
HUH?! (Score:1)
1) The only thing that glibc-2.1 really breaks (at compile time) is yacc's output (because it's a lovely file pointer = STDIN, STDOUT, etc)..
2) It DOES break some binary compatibilty though... if anything. pre-compiled binaries would have much more trouble then compiling the code.
"It is unfortunate that glibc 2.1 is largly incompatible with glibc 2.0."
How is it? It uses versioned symbols.
I wish it was more build friendly.. (Score:1)
Re:Oh, come on! (Score:1)
Could you elucidate what config problems people might have with Netscape on Linux? I'm actually curious - this is no troll.
In my experience, Communicator 4.5 on Solaris x86 has been great, while 4.0x from Linux Mandrake 5.3 has been an utter POS.
(It's hard to sell users on the "stablity" of Linux, when the web browser seems so drastically broken.)
--
Lynx advocacy ;-) (Score:2)
Help! (Score:1)
Anyone?
Using java? They tried that already. (Score:1)
Re:Using java? They tried that already. (Score:1)
I fire it up occasionally, and on a Pentium 200 with 64 megs of RAM, it is usable, but quite slow.
IMHO, Java VM performance on Linux still has a way to go before usable (big) apps can be written for it.
Mozilla in win32 (Score:1)
HELP!! (Score:1)
Keyboard combos (Score:1)
Sure, it's probably way down on their list of priorities, but not being able to CTRL-N for a new window or CTRL-O to open up a box for me to type in a new URL means that I end up playing around with these new releases for maybe 20 minutes before returning to the ease of IE. I know for sure I'd be more willing to use it for longer stretches if I didn't have to reach for the mouse to get just about anything done.
FWIW, M5 blew up on me within the first 3 minutes that I was trying it out. And no, I wasn't trying any funky pages -- only Example2 and goto.com -- and I had no other apps running at the time. Please tell me that the bug situation is better than this, especially when there's so much still missing. (And yes, I was a good little trooper and let it send my system info to mozilla.org after the crash.)
Random note: "M5" looks a lot like "MS" at 4:15am.
Cheers,
ZicoKnows@hotmail.com
Well... (Score:1)
Using ALT instead of CTRL for action combos on the Win32 versions would be a disastrous mistake, because everybody and their sister expects to use CTRL for them (ALT combos being used to access the menu bar). As for why I would expect N or O to be used for New and Open, that's because every version of Netscape and IE that I've used, on every platform on which I've used them, have used those two. Why would they annoy users by changing these?
As far as the final version, I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that the CTRL combos will be present. I was just throwing out a suggestion that they start coding them in (I would think that it'd be one of the simpler coding tasks in the entire project), so that some of us keyboard-oriented users could start racking up a lot more usage, helping them iron out bugs in the process.
Cheers,
ZicoKnows@hotmail.com
Because that's dumb? (Score:1)
Why not come with a standard set of keyboard combos that everyone is used to, letting them change it if they want to? Who the hell wants to go through all the combinations to have to set their own? Lemme guess, you enjoy hand-editing your XF86Config file, right?
Cheers,
ZicoKnows@hotmail.com
Re:Oh, come on! (Score:1)
----------------------------------------
Jamin Philip Gray
jgray@writeme.com
http://students.cec.wustl.edu/~jpg2/
Rational not into Linux.. (Score:1)
Lets all mail rational and see if we can get them to port some of there products to Linux..
Here is the person I dealt with, send a polite email expressing your interest in their products and hoping they get ported to Linux. (If you are interested in there products.)
Franco, Kathryn [mailto]
Re:Stability (Score:1)
Re:Oh, come on! (Score:1)
I use RedHat Linux (i386) 5.2, all the latest patches, with GNOME and Enlightenment.
----------
Re:Netscape crash fix (Score:1)
Re:Not fast enough (Score:1)
--Matt
Re: log entries (Score:1)
You found bugs? SO REPORT THEM!! Help the cause! (Score:1)
Mirror available, 25 users (T3) (Score:1)
ftp://ftp.digiforest.com/mirrors/mozilla-m5/ ( link [digiforest.com] )
25 users because I've never mirrored something and posted the URL to slashdot before. If things go well and I don't get attacked I might mirror other things as well. It's a dedicated, Bay-compressed, PtP T3. Have fun.
And read the release notes [mozilla.org]!
R. [mailto]
Yummy! (Score:1)
Mmmmm. Fresh code.
OK, so it still has lots of bugs. But it sure looks good. I'll be switching my primary browser to Mozilla by M6 or M7, if development continues at this rate.
My god, you're right! (Score:1)
Re:Slightly less IE FUD (Score:1)
It does crash though, at least every day. Almost as much as Netscape 4 did on Linux.
Mike
Re:bug (Score:1)
Re:Ironic? not quite (Score:2)
That page is designed for the Mozilla Active X control, showing mozilla running as a control under IE (yes... its true!!! it does that)
since IE is the only browser that supports Active X, and there FPE allows web designers to insert them easily.... thats all it is..
More likely, that page has been "Cut and Pasted" from another "public" page as a template
Re:Help! (Score:5)
Check under Project Sea Monkey [mozilla.org]. You probably want to see the milestone plan [mozilla.org].
There are release notes [mozilla.org], too.
Memory leaks (Score:3)
Ironic? (Score:2)
\x86rel\res\MozillaControl.html
This should open up your browser. Right click the middle of the page and click View Source or whatever you need to click to see the source code of the page. The generator tag said the page was made with Microsoft Frontpage Express 2.0. Even amidst all of the browser wars, Netscape developers must still prefer IE and its components to their own Netscape. Strange, isn't it?"
Note: Stolen from betanews.com
Proves that Zawinski didn't kill Mozilla (Score:2)
Losing Zawinski was a great punch in the stomach for Mozilla, but I think by no means is it dead. I think after Mozilla gets over this rocky stage, it will flourish. Here's why:
1. The code is just now becoming something presentable. Too much code done internally made it hard to follow in early releases.
2. People won't contribute until there is something there. I think that the nearer and nearer that Mozilla gets to their target, the more and more people will jump on board. The organization will probably explode when they release the final product, and the general public sees how good it is.
3. Milestone 5 was reached and released yesterday, without Zawinski. Life will go on.
I just thought I would also share my insight with all of you. Let me know your opinion, and thank you for your time. BTW, I am running M5 from my office on Windows NT, and it is pretty cool.
-NG
+--
Given infinite time, 100 monkeys could type out the complete works of Shakespeare.
Re:Slightly less IE FUD (Score:2)