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Technology Science

China Goes Nuclear 1058

Rei writes "Wired reports that the People's Republic of China has announced plans to build 30 new nuclear reactors by the year 2020, and by 2050 have almost as much nuclear power as the entire world produces today. The reactors are to be pebble bed reactors, in which helium replaces radioactive, pressurized water. A Chinese research institution demonstrated the safety of their test reactor against meltdown by shutting off the coolant."
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China Goes Nuclear

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  • ummm (Score:2, Informative)

    by mrbcs ( 737902 ) on Thursday September 02, 2004 @05:17PM (#10143267)
    Didn't the russians do this in Chernobyl? Apparently the chinese version worked.
  • Re:great... (Score:3, Informative)

    by mrchaotica ( 681592 ) on Thursday September 02, 2004 @05:21PM (#10143307)
    I know the article's slashdotted, but could you at least RTFS[ummary]?!
    A Chinese research institution demonstrated the safety of their test reactor against meltdown by shutting off the coolant."
  • by kaan ( 88626 ) on Thursday September 02, 2004 @05:23PM (#10143334)
    Not only does nuclear energy work, but it is a major source of power all over Europe. For instance, France currently generates 75% of its total power from nuclear sources (from this BBC story [bbc.co.uk]). Like many things, nuclear power can be a good thing if it is generated safely, and it can be very dangerous if not. The key is to be safe in how the nuclear power plant is built, operated and maintained.
  • by crow ( 16139 ) on Thursday September 02, 2004 @05:23PM (#10143348) Homepage Journal
    Nonsense.

    China has long been one of the five (now sevel with Inida and Pakistan) admitted nuclear powers. They don't need to build new reactors for secret nuclear programs because their nuclear program isn't secret.
  • by mrchaotica ( 681592 ) on Thursday September 02, 2004 @05:24PM (#10143369)
    ...here's a Wikipedia article [wikipedia.org] about pebble bed reactors.
  • by br0ck ( 237309 ) on Thursday September 02, 2004 @05:28PM (#10143419)
    Coal releases more radioactivity that nuclear power anyway.

    From this article [ornl.gov], "the population effective dose equivalent from coal plants is 100 times that from nuclear plants."
  • by mrchaotica ( 681592 ) on Thursday September 02, 2004 @05:30PM (#10143440)
    But the point is that a pebble bed design doesn't risk a disaster! From Wikipedia [wikipedia.org]:
    he primary advantage of pebble bed reactors is that they can be designed to be inherently safe. As they get hotter, the fissionables' molecules move faster, widening the range of speeds of the nuclei. The neutrons are less likely to interact with very fast nuclei, and the reactor's criticality falls. The reactor vessel is designed so that without mechanical aids it loses more heat than the reactor can generate in this idle state. The design adapts well to safety features (see below). In particular, most of the fuel containment resides in the pebbles, and the pebbles are designed so that a containment failure releases at most a 0.5 mm sphere of radioactive material.
  • wikipedia link (Score:4, Informative)

    by j1m+5n0w ( 749199 ) on Thursday September 02, 2004 @05:32PM (#10143477) Homepage Journal

    Here's the wikipedia article for pebble bed reactors [wikipedia.org], including a discussion of their safety.

    -jim

  • by Comrade64 ( 799539 ) on Thursday September 02, 2004 @05:41PM (#10143590)
    What happens if a nuclear bomb is detonated in Nevada? Will people flee from Las Vegas? Ever hear of Voyager, Pioneer and etc...they had "radioisotope thermoelectric generators" or RTGs. Also, China isn't new to the nuclear power scene. They've been doing it for years and years. It's just that they're taking it a step beyond what the US did. Face it, our (the US's) current nuclear power infrastructuce is marginal.
  • by Jeffrey Baker ( 6191 ) on Thursday September 02, 2004 @05:44PM (#10143635)
    Talk about disingenuous. Coal power needs a contiuous feed of billions of tons of coal. Nuclear power needs tiny batches of fuel periodically.

    In 2000 64,000 tons of Uranium were consumed, while 3,600,000,000 tons of coal were produced. Even if Uranium and coal posed the same danger to miners, there'd be about one-fifty-thousandth the deaths.

  • by moreati ( 119629 ) <alex@moreati.org.uk> on Thursday September 02, 2004 @05:57PM (#10143770) Homepage
    Read up on the reactor design they're using, Pebble Bed Reactors [wikipedia.org].

    These are not your traditional nuclear reactors, they don't suffer from a run-away failure mode, they're designed such that even if all control rods are removed and the coolant gets shut off the increased temperature itself slows down the reaction to a stable idle - below the temperature at which the fuel or reactor melts. Ie they inherently can't blow up or go into meltdown.

    Additionally the coolant used is helium, an atom that has very low neutron absorbtion, meaning in the case of a leak there is no atmospheric or groundwater contamination.

    Additionlly-additionally the nuclear fuel is at a much lower density, compared to a conventional reactor, greatly simplifying refueling and disposal. Each 210 g pebble contains 9g of uranium grains, sealed inside an exetremely tough ceramic casing that doesn't burn or break - hence no radioactive dust or smoke in an accident.

    These things seem very safe and very clean. My main concern will be the lack of public criticism and independant oversight in a country such as China.

    Alex
  • Re:Safety test (Score:5, Informative)

    by Tmack ( 593755 ) on Thursday September 02, 2004 @05:57PM (#10143774) Homepage Journal
    Go read what a pebble bed reactor is [wikipedia.org] and then you probably wouldnt ask that question. Pebble beds use pebbles of a radioactive fuel mixture thats part uranium and part mediator. Where most reactors use fuel rods of highly concentrated uranium, with mediator rods between them that are moved in and out of the core to control the reaction, these pebbled basically have the control rods built into the fuel. They are designed such that they increase power only if the coolant is flowing, thus they are inharently safe. If the temperature goes up, the reaction slows and the reactor gives off more heat than it creates. The only "safety device" would be a failure to turn off the coolant, in which case the coolant would be taking the heat away from the reactor anyway, but might heat some other areas of the plant unexpectedly (heat exchangers/turbines/etc).

    Tm

  • Re:rediculous (Score:2, Informative)

    by kacymartin ( 749145 ) on Thursday September 02, 2004 @05:59PM (#10143792)
    and half-lives are in decades if not centuries Try 4.5 billion years for Uranium...
  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 02, 2004 @06:04PM (#10143833)
    It's also important to note WHY it's safe to shut off the cooling system. Pebble bed reactors are LESS reactive without the coolant, therefore they 'starve' themselves if they overheat (yeah that was for the layman). Thus it is safe to remove the coolant from a pebble bed reactor.
  • by Hentai ( 165906 ) on Thursday September 02, 2004 @06:19PM (#10143999) Homepage Journal
    You'd be surprised what sorts of disasters [offroaders.com] can happen with coal mining.
  • by demachina ( 71715 ) on Thursday September 02, 2004 @06:23PM (#10144045)
    "Burying it is perfectly safe"

    You gotta be kidding. You must go to the ostrich school of nuclear waste disposal, just bury it, out of sight out of mind, trust us it will be OK.

    I'm 100% for nuclear power because its ones of the few ways your going to produce power for this planet once fossil fuels run out but you either need to develop clean fusion power or figure out some way to really deal with the deadly waste from fission reactors. As some have pointed out China's government can probably sweep it under the rug for a while, they can store it wherever they want and imprison anyone who complains, but it is a problem that for all practical purposes never goes away.

    Most of the high level toxic waste that was supposed to go to Yucca Mountain will be lethal for up to a quarter million years. It will probably outlast civilization as we know which hasn't lasted 10,000 years yet. One of the study issues for Yucca Mountain is how do you mark deadly waste so that someone ten thousand years from now will deduce that is lethal and leave it alone.

    There was marked low level waste in a UN sealed site in Iraq from the 1980's. As soon as anarchy broke out after the invasion looters went in and dumped it all over the place in order to steal the barrels, poisoning themselves and the whole area.

    The only way you can bury it is to find container technology that will hold it for tens of thousands of years, unattended, and we simply don't have it. As soon as a container corrodes, cracks or otherwise ruptures that waste is going to be headed for the water table and when it reaches the water table it travels and it poisons everything over a wide area. There have been bad attempts to engage in short term storage of waste at most of the nuclear weapons sites in the U.S. and the U.S.S.R and they are littered with case of corroded and ruptured containers. We really haven't been able to store waste 50 years let alone tens of thousands of years.

    The U.S. has spent billions studying Yucca Mountain and its failed miserably in meeting the criteria as a long term waste disposal site and in the U.S. there is no alternate sight in consideration.

    From a Mother Jones article on the plight of Nevada and Yucca Mountain:

    Repealing the Apocalypse

    Once again, it was the water that was the problem, only this time it wasn't a shortage. Yucca Mountain, it turned out, was all wet, and a truly lunatic place to put seventy-seven thousand tons of high-level nuclear waste.

    The government created the nuclear power industry with a promise to reactor operators that the essential crisis of the industry, the dangerous, exceedingly long-lived waste it produces, would be taken off their hands. In all the subsequent decades of nuclear power production, spent fuel rods have been piling up in "cooling ponds" onsite, while the operators waited for the government to make good on its promise to get rid of the stuff (mostly located in the population-heavy, resource-light East). Three New England reactors are already suing the government for failing to come up with a dump.

    For more than two decades, the Department of Energy (DOE) has done everything it can to create one of the most scientifically dubious dumpsites imaginable, at Yucca Mountain, about ninety miles north of Vegas on the northern edges of the Nevada Test Site, where all those nuclear bombs were detonated (and will be again if Bush has his way).

    The initial plan was to compare sites in three western states and choose the safest one, but two of the states -- Texas and Washington -- had the political clout to get out of the competition. So the "comparative study" never studied anyplace but Yucca Mountain, and yet the longer it was studied the less suitable it seemed even for the mandated 10,000 years it was supposed to keep us and the waste apart (forget the quarter million years the stuff would actually remain dangerous). Somehow, this never seemed to stop plans from proceeding. For a lot of geologists, the fact tha
  • by stevelinton ( 4044 ) <sal@dcs.st-and.ac.uk> on Thursday September 02, 2004 @06:26PM (#10144063) Homepage
    The basic reaction in a standard reactor turns Uranium into highly radioactive isotopes of various much lighter elements (fission products). There also loads of parasitic reactions that make Plutonium, turn bits of the reactor into radioactice isotopes of this and that, and so on.

    Once about 3% of the Uranium has fissioned, the fission products and the things they have decayed into become a problem -- they absorb neutrons when you don't want them to and generally mess up the chain reaction. The build-up of other radioactive isotopes is also a bit of a problem -- they can affect the structural and chemical stability of the reactor.

    So, anyway you have to pull the fuel elements once they reach this state. Then you have two options. Firstly, you can write them off, and just try and keep them cool while the more radioactive elements decay (10-20 years) and then look for a way to get rid of them. Alternatively you can chemically separate our all the various elements present. This is a somewhat tricky and hazardous process, on its track record, but produces recovered unburnt uranium, some plutonium, various inert things and a relatively small quantity of highly radioactive concentrated fission products, which you then have to store or dispose of.

  • by Woody77 ( 118089 ) on Thursday September 02, 2004 @06:40PM (#10144186)
    Salt mines. Stuff the crap under detroit. It's not like it's going to do any more damage, and very few things are as stable, geologically, as a salt mine.
  • by afidel ( 530433 ) on Thursday September 02, 2004 @06:41PM (#10144196)
    Old school plants were built NEAR rivers because the river provided a thermal sink. Environmentalists (correctly) complained that much damage was being done to aquatic life by in influx of 80+ degree water into cool rivers. So all American plants (and most plants worldwide) were converted to continuous loop designs where an isolated, snaking series of pipes was used to cool the water, kind of a reverse heat pump. France on the otherhand built the reactor spanning the river, so the support columns could be undercut by the river and a structural collapse would place the plant and contents into the river.
  • Re:Excellent news (Score:3, Informative)

    by Daniel Dvorkin ( 106857 ) * on Thursday September 02, 2004 @06:49PM (#10144265) Homepage Journal
    Well, you could do worse than the documents linked to from the first site. These look like particularly relevant ones (adjust as needed for /.'s URL-breaking behavior):

    http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc_tar/wg1/pdf/WG1 _T AR-FRONT.PDF

    http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc_tar/wg1/pdf/TAR -0 7.PDF

    http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc_tar/wg1/pdf/WG1 _T AR-FRONT.PDF

    If a site calling itself environmentaldefense.org seems a bit leftish to be trusted, you might want to consider the current official study by the US government [usgcrp.gov]. When even the Bush White House acknowledges what's going on ...

    Oh, here's the URL for the full report:

    http://www.usgcrp.gov/usgcrp/Library/ocp2004-5/o cp 2004-5.pdf
  • by aardvarkjoe ( 156801 ) on Thursday September 02, 2004 @07:17PM (#10144498)
    In the short term, nuclear power is a coal-killer, not a oil-killer -- oil only accounts for something like 2-3% of electricity generation in the US; coal accounts for 50%. In the long term, however. nuclear power can reduce the need for oil. (For instance, it can provide the cheap energy needed to create fuel cells, charge batteries, and other alternative methods of powering vehicles.)
  • by normal_guy ( 676813 ) on Thursday September 02, 2004 @07:31PM (#10144576)
    Never, ever mention Mother Jones in an argument. Instant loss of credibility, regardless of content.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 02, 2004 @07:35PM (#10144600)
    I know a bit about Yucca Mountian. My uncle was a concrete engineer working on lining the whole damn place with spray concrete. (got some awesome pictures), and I know the guys the designed those containers to be stored there, and I also know the guys the designed the filters to trap those heavy metals, once they become water borne.

    MOST of the stuff disposed there is cleanup stuff. Cloths. Rags. Containers. ***REALLY*** mundane stuff. The next biggest percentage is those filters that I mentioned earlier. Every ounce of radioactive non-volatile fluid to be buried is first run through what basically amounts to a HEPA filter for water. So, those particulates infact become solid waste. What's left of the water is boiled off, and the remnants get packaged too (mostly regular mineral deposits)

    The high level wastes are encapsulated in glass or copper in such amounts that there is not enough for that material, or it's decomposited forms to cause a situation of critical mass. Lots of radioactive stuff in one spot can cause quite alot of heat, right? So they limit the quantities of high level radioactive waste to a certian amount PER CONTAINER. Fortunately, Very very very very *VERY* little of what is buried is this form of waste. Less than 20%, and maybe 2% of any given container is highly radioactive... And quite honestly, most of the stuff they treat like this does not at all really need to be treated so carefully.

    If Carter's nuclear recycling ban was lifted, that 20% number could be easily dropped to 5% or probably less.
  • by sploxx ( 622853 ) on Thursday September 02, 2004 @07:37PM (#10144613)
    But AFAIK, pebble bed reactors work at fairly high temperatures. If air leaks into the reactor vessel and the fuel starts to burn, it would get really messy.

    Not that I oppose nuclear power, though. But safety should be a major design factor.
  • by demachina ( 71715 ) on Thursday September 02, 2004 @07:40PM (#10144639)
    Chill friend. First off I was pointing out the insanity of someone saying we can just bury it, and the insanity that is Yucca Mountain which is basically just burying it.

    Reprocessing it is a whole different and more complicated thing. The issue with reprocessing are so complicated and varied you aren't going to do it justice in a Slashdot thread.

    Depending on the methods you choose you still get waste of various forms, different waste sure, but there is still a lot of waste from reprocessing. In particular you are going to get plutonium of various grades from weapons grade to plutonium suitable for fast breeder reactors. The only way you get rid of the plutonium waste in the near term is to put in bombs or burn it in reactors designed to burn it.

    A key reason reprocessing has such a stigma attached to it is its historically and still is in some places used to harvest weapons grade plutonium. It is a key avenue for nuclear weapons proliferation and weapons grade plutonium is far more dangerous in the wrong hands than the waste so its not like you want every country on the planet doing it.

    There is some value in the way reprocessing its being used in France, India and Japan to recycle the fuel and reuse it in fast breeder reactors but there a whole set of issues with that path two.

    Pyroprocessing is the new holy grail and it might prove to be a better route than the current PUREX and UREX reprocessing but its not exactly a proven process and it a potential accident waiting to happen too.

    Here [world-nuclear.org] is a technical brief on the methods though its written by a pro nuke group and needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

    You might be able to reduce the dangerous lifespan of a of of waste to 500-1000 years, and burn some of it in reactors but to hold it out as the final solution to nuclear waste is a stretch at this point.
  • Why? (Score:5, Informative)

    by Sycraft-fu ( 314770 ) on Thursday September 02, 2004 @07:43PM (#10144664)
    We have very few oil power plants. The majority of our power comes from coal which is cheap and very abundant within our own borders. Natural gas and oil are also used (as well as nuclear) but coal is the main non-nuclear source.

    That, combined with the scare factor, is the reason the US is so bleh about nuclear power. We have coal, more than we can use in a long time, so why not just keep burning it? I mean nuclear is all evil and scary and shit.

    But no, oil going up won't crunch our grid, it'll crunch our cars.
  • by demachina ( 71715 ) on Thursday September 02, 2004 @07:48PM (#10144703)
    Natural uranium is only slightly radioactive. It has to by mined in huge quantities and purified to produce weapons grade uranium and reactor fuel.

    Most of the waste we are talking about here isn't uranium, its plutonium and a host of other exotic metals and isotopes. Plutonium is lethal in extremely small quantities, and with reprocessing its highly sought after to produce nuclear weapons or dirty bombs. You can't just dump it back in a whole in the ground. Like most things you dump in the ground there is a high probability some of its going to end up in the ground water which people drink, and is used in agriculture to grow food for people to eat.
  • by colinemckay ( 610522 ) on Thursday September 02, 2004 @08:19PM (#10144889)
    From another Wired article:

    "At our current rate of consumption, Cliffside will likely be empty in 10 to 25 years, and the Earth will be virtually helium-free by the end of the 21st century."

    http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/8.08/helium.htm l [wired.com]
  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 02, 2004 @08:24PM (#10144921)
    I'd be interested to know how the Chinese have addressed the following problems with PBR technology (from http://www.tmia.com/pebbles.html)

    1. It has no containment building.

    2. It uses flammable graphite as a moderator.

    3. It produces more high level nuclear wastes than current nuclear reactor designs.

    4. It relies heavily on nearly perfect fuel pebbles.

    5. It relies heavily upon fuel handling as the pebbles are cycled through the reactor.

    6. There's already been an accident at a pebble bed reactor in Germany due to fuel handling problems.
  • by Danny Rathjens ( 8471 ) <slashdot2.rathjens@org> on Thursday September 02, 2004 @08:41PM (#10144988)
    Natural uranium is only slightly radioactive. It has to by mined in huge quantities and purified to produce weapons grade uranium and reactor fuel.

    If that were true then I doubt that we would be seeing naturally occuring nuclear reactors. :)
    http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/10/1 6/167237&tid=134&tid=14 [slashdot.org]
    That link to APOD should actually have been:
    http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap021016.html [nasa.gov]

    I also just found this page with some interesting information about natural radioactivity with stats like Annual estimated average effective dose equivalent received by a member of the population of the United States:
    http://www.physics.isu.edu/radinf/natural.htm [isu.edu]

  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 02, 2004 @09:03PM (#10145115)
    Canada has been testing re-processing weapons grade materials from both the US and the ex Soviet Union in it's Candu reactors.

    See: http://www.nuclearfaq.ca/mox.htm [nuclearfaq.ca]
  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 02, 2004 @09:06PM (#10145133)
    > This is startlingly good news for Nevada.
    > Scientists have always said that Yucca Mountain
    > was a disaster-in-the-making, even leaving aside
    > those 50 million Americans living within half a
    > mile of the shipment routes the Yucca-bound
    > nuclear waste would travel on for decades to come,
    > or the 90 to 500 estimated accidents of unknown
    > scale that statistics suggest would take place en
    > route over the years. (Who needs terrorist dirty
    > bombs when our own tax dollars can supply them?

    I call FUD. Have you *seen* the containers that they've created to hold the nuclear waste? They've taken them and rammed them into walls at 80 MPH on the top of tanker trucks, dropped them on large iron spikes, fired SAM missles at them - all to no avail. Hardly made a dent in them.

    These things are multi-million dollar containers that are about an order of magnitude thicker than your average tank. Given that they are going to be escorted by police and military convoys, I sincerely doubt that anything serious is going to happen.

    I truly worry about the US if we let ourselves fall behind on this - misplaced anxiety is really going to do us in in the next century. I can only hope that calmer heads prevail.

    horos
  • by cheesybagel ( 670288 ) on Thursday September 02, 2004 @09:09PM (#10145149)
    Most of the high level toxic waste that was supposed to go to Yucca Mountain will be lethal for up to a quarter million years. It will probably outlast civilization as we know which hasn't lasted 10,000 years yet. One of the study issues for Yucca Mountain is how do you mark deadly waste so that someone ten thousand years from now will deduce that is lethal and leave it alone.

    Geez. Another one. Please get an education in physics or read the radiation hazard page at Wikipedia. The worst part of the waste is not the one with the long half-life elements (i.e. Plutonium, Uranium). But the short half-life elements (Iodine-131, Strontium-90).

    Usually the faster something decays, the more radiation it releases per unit of time. Something that takes a long time to decay is usually just somewhat warm to the touch. Like plutonium.

    The ultimate proof of course, is that elements with an infinite half-life (want even higher half-life than that?) like Au-197 (plain Gold) emit zero radiation.

    If you just leave the waste in a pile, it will eventually be a very pure tolerable radiation hazard uranium + plutonium mine and a very valuable resource. The shorter half-life elements will have decayed already.

    Regarding Plutonium toxicity, it is way overblown. Sure it is a heavy metal, so is Lead, yet we don't get into a hissy fit about it. Last I heard, they still used Lead to make solder. You aren't going to be allowed to make plates and forks from the stuff, or have it in easily inhalable or drinkable powdered or soluble form (like they used to have in Gasoline), but as long as you use proper procedure it is not that big a deal.

  • Re:Nice (Score:2, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 02, 2004 @09:14PM (#10145180)
    "Assuming 10% usage, the total of the thermal energy capacities from each of these three fissionable isotopes is about 10.1 x 10E14 kWh, 1.5 times more than the total from coal. ... Consequently, the energy content of nuclear fuel released in coal combustion is more than that of the coal consumed!"

    "Coal Combustion: Nuclear Resource or Danger" -- Alex Gabbard [ornl.gov]
  • by cheesybagel ( 670288 ) on Thursday September 02, 2004 @09:17PM (#10145200)
    Luddite [reference.com]:

    2. One who opposes technical or technological change.

    The meaning of that word has evolved since the XIXth century. By opposing the nuclear industry, you are only helping the coal and gas-fired lobby, since the other energy sources cannot compete with fossils (wind and hydro are not economically viable everywhere, solar is ludicrously expensive).

  • by aardvarkjoe ( 156801 ) on Thursday September 02, 2004 @09:21PM (#10145212)
    Energy generation is not the same as electricity generation. The correct stats:

    Coal 52%
    Nuclear 20%
    Gas 16%
    Hydro 7%
    Oil 3%
    Non-hydro Renewable 2%

    (Source) [doe.gov]

  • Re:REALITY (Score:3, Informative)

    by SatanicPuppy ( 611928 ) <SatanicpuppyNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Thursday September 02, 2004 @09:23PM (#10145222) Journal
    I consider myself to be pretty liberal, maybe especially in environmental issues. On the other hand, I think a lot of the far left are complete assholes who really lower the level of the discourse. I'd far rather have safe, reasonably clean, nuclear reactors than the giant foul coal/oil plants we have now.

    I toured a closed nuclear power plant on the Savannah river once. Like most nuclear reactors, it sat in the middle of a big swath of gov't owned land. When they closed the plant (which they did because it was leaking radioactive coolant), they let the land surrounding it do its own thing.

    I was amazed at how healthy everythign looked. Sad to say that, as long as we're not dropping nukes on them, it's better for the wildlife to live next radioactive waste than it is for them to live next to people.
  • by Mike Van Pelt ( 32582 ) on Thursday September 02, 2004 @09:26PM (#10145242)
    As soon as a container corrodes, cracks or otherwise ruptures that waste is going to be headed for the water table

    As soon as you write this, it's clear that you are Not Paying Attention. At all. The disposal plan is to mix the waste into molten glass and/or ceramic, and cast solid lumps of this glass or ceramic. This can not corrode (natural glasses (tektites) are known to survive unchanged for over a billion years in sea water) there's nothing to rupture, and if it does crack, so what? You've just got two little lumps of impervious radioactive glass instead of one big one.

    What everyone else said about the silly hyperbole of it being dangerous for "a quarter million years"...
  • by dcmeserve ( 615081 ) on Thursday September 02, 2004 @09:53PM (#10145381) Homepage Journal
    "Burying it is perfectly safe"

    You gotta be kidding.

    You should take a look a the links. From pbmr.com [pbmr.com]: The PBMR will generate about 19 tons of spent fuel pebbles per annum, of which less than one ton is depleted uranium. The spent fuel is much easier to store than fuel rods from Pressurized Water Reactors, because the silicon carbide coating around the fuel particles will keep the radioactive decay products isolated for approximately a million years. This is longer than the activity of any of the radioactive products, including plutonium.

    The PBMR system has been designed to deal with nuclear waste efficiently and safely. There will be enough room for the spent fuel to be stored in dry storage tanks within the PBMR building. All the spent fuel that the PBMR generates during its 40-year life will be stored on site. This means that no spent fuel will have to be removed from the site. After the plant has been shut down, the spent fuel will be safely stored on site for another 40 years before being sent to a final repository, where the following factors will ensure safe storage:

    Firstly, the fission products are encased in a layer of silicon carbide. This layer forms a protective shell around the fission products, and prevents environmental contamination.

    Secondly, the fuel has been packed in a graphite sphere. Graphite is an inherently stable material. This means that the spheres will not break or disintegrate, and thus the configuration of the spent fuel will not change.

    Finally, the density of spent fuel in each sphere is so minimal that the repository can be packed as efficiently as possible.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 02, 2004 @10:20PM (#10145513)
    You're a fucking idiot. First, there's no such thing as a "synthetic element". Yes, the quantity to be found on Earth in a natural state is vanishingly small, but that wasn't the case millions of years ago. It just decayed away to stable products. Second, the radiotoxicity of plutonium is less than that of naturally occurring radium ore. Third, go ahead and ingest a shitload of plutonium if you want. It won't kill you right away, just increase your chances of getting cancer in the long run. Shit like botulism (all-natural!) and caffeine are far more toxic. Fourth, and finally, please show me where nuclear waste has caused more cancer than: exposure to the sun's UV radiation, tobacco, Aflatoxin, etc. (all three are all-natural, by the way). You fucking idiot.
  • by Mulletproof ( 513805 ) on Thursday September 02, 2004 @10:50PM (#10145723) Homepage Journal
    "Wired reports that the People's Republic of China has announced plans to build 30 new nuclear reactors by the year 2020, and by 2050 have almost as much nuclear power as the entire world produces today."

    Not that I would ever question China's resolve on such an undertaking, but this wouldn't be the the first time [newscientist.com] China has made such a claim [bbc.co.uk]. One might even wonder what their political structure will look like in 50 years, let alone suspect the resolve to stay the course they're outlining for this massive project. Not that China would ever tell us something that wasn't true [bbc.co.uk], right?
  • by The Sith Lord ( 111494 ) on Thursday September 02, 2004 @11:54PM (#10146044)
    Yes, burying it is safe, but there was a means of disposing waste that makes it even safer. Synroc (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synroc/ [wikipedia.org]) essentially crystallises the waste, making it impossible for radiation to leak. Its just a shame that it hasn't had widespread adoption, as it will quell all the fears of burying nuclear waste.
  • by demachina ( 71715 ) on Friday September 03, 2004 @12:06AM (#10146122)
    I stand somewhat corrected. Though here [lbl.gov] is a source that suggests wikipedia is downplaying its danger somewhat. Excerpts are below.

    I guess I'll chalk my wrongness up to media and public antipathy to nuclear power. But that antipathy rose for a couple pretty good reasons. Fission reactors have in fact proven very dangerous numerous times so no one trusts them any more, or the people that build them and advocate them. Three Mile Island and Chernobyl killed fission reactor credibility. Three Mile Island was noteworthy because they came close to a Chernobyl scale accident and the people involved were lieing about the danger and what was happening throughout. Chernobyl's left a dead zone that shows what Three Mile Island could have done if it had gone only slightly further.

    The problem is maybe the new designs are safer but at this point no one believes it or is going to trust them. The nuclear industry assured us the old ones were safe and they weren't so they've burned their credibility. The fact is most existing reactors are complex systems, they are extremely fallible and they've proven themselves to be extremely dangerous. How are you going to convince people they are safe at this point. China can do it because they don't have to convince anyone, they can just build them and deal with anyone that complains.

    From the LBL source above:

    Ingestion of plutonium

    For acute radiation poisoning, the lethal dose is estimated to be 500 milligrams (mg), i.e. about 1/2 gram. A common poison, cyanide, requires a dose 5 times smaller to cause death: 100 mg. Thus for ingestion, plutonium is very toxic, but five times less toxic than cyanide. There is also a risk of cancer from ingestion, with a lethal doze (1 cancer) for 480 mg.

    Inhalation of plutonium dust

    For inhalation, the plutonium can cause death within a month (from pulmonary fibrosis or pulmonary edema); that requires 20 mg inhaled. To cause cancer with high probability, the amount that must be inhaled is 0.08 mg = 80 micrograms. The lethal dose for botulism toxin is estimated to be about 0.070 micrograms = 70 nanograms. [1] Thus botulism toxin is over a thousand times more toxic. The statement that plutonium is the most dangerous material known to man is false. But it is very dangerous, at least in dust form.

    How easy is it to breathe in 0.08 mg = 80 micrograms? To get to the critical part of the lungs, the particle must be no larger than about 3 microns. A particle of that size has a mass of about 0.140 micrograms. To get to a dose of 80 micrograms requires 80/0.14 = 560 particles. In contrast, the lethal dose for anthrax is estimated to be 10,000 particles of a similar size. Thus plutonium dust, if spread in the air, is more dangerous than anthrax Ð although the effects are not as immediate.

    This source also has an interest section on breeder reactors:

    Breeder reactors

    The Pu-239 is usually not considered nuclear waste, because it can be used itself to run a nuclear reactor. It is nuclear fuel. Moreover, if you put it in a nuclear reactor, you get three neutrons per fission instead of two. In a reactor, operating at constant (not exponentially growing) power, you want only one neutron per fission to produce another fission. What do you do with the extra two neutrons? Answer: put U-238 in the reactor, and make more plutonium.

    Thus a reactor can make (out of U-238) more Pu-239 fuel than it consumes! Such a reactor is called a breeder reactor. It has the potential of turning all uranium, not just 0.7% of it, into nuclear fuel, and thereby increase the available fission fuel by a factor of 140.

    There has been public opposition to breeder reactors. The two most common objections are:

    1. The plutonium economy. Breeder reactors would allow much greater use of nuclear power, but it means that plutonium would be widespread. Besides the fact that plutonium is ra
  • by AJWM ( 19027 ) on Friday September 03, 2004 @12:21AM (#10146209) Homepage
    When TMI blew? When TMI blew!?

    When did that happen?

    TMI had a minor release of very slightly radioactive steam. It never "blew".

    And because of the reactor shutdown, coal-fired plants had to step up their output, requiring more coal. More people died when a coal train collided with a car at a RR crossing during the TMI incident than ever have because of that steam release.
  • by slipstick ( 579587 ) on Friday September 03, 2004 @12:32AM (#10146272)
    Yeah sure.

    http://www.nuclearfaq.ca/cnf_sectionE.htm#v2

    Check out the natural uranium reactor, and of course the most naturally radioactive site currently known(right in my own back yard, I live in the province where this site is located).

    The Cigar Lake site is so radioactive they haven't figured out a way to mine it yet(last I heard).
  • Corrections (Score:2, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 03, 2004 @03:07AM (#10146918)
    That must be 30 new reactor GROUPS. 30 pebble bed reactors would produce way too little amount of electricity. One pebble bed reactor doesn't generate very much electricity by design, the idea is to build cascades of them.

    It is also funny how all kinds of "experts" here started commenting on the security of various matters very fast after the Slashdot story was out.

    I bet not all of the commentators did ever do any research into the pebble bed reactors or what we could today do in case the ridiculous fears were gotten rid of.

    The technology and human organizations around it has evolved greatly. Nuclear power is the only way how humanity has the possibility to create enough evergy for its needs without destroying the environment as the USA is primarily doing at the moment.

    Pebble beds are also very secure. Even if a whole cascade was blown up you got to get grip of the reality. All the nuclear testing and other radiation leaks combined haven't killed as much as... Burning COAL. Check the statistics, kids. A common cold has killed more people in the Chernobyl area than the radiation if you bother to check it out.

    Btw, pebble bed reactors are old and been tested from the late 60s already. Scientists know them perhaps even better than the other types of reactors.

    So stfu whiners.
  • Re:REALITY (Score:2, Informative)

    by ChumpusRex2003 ( 726306 ) on Friday September 03, 2004 @08:33AM (#10147979)
    Modern bead reactors of the type the chinese are building are VASTLY less likely to meltdown than any reactor currently running in the US. The coolant in a bead reactor actually catalyses the reaction, so without coolant, there is no reaction.

    The coolant in a pebble reactor has no effect on the reaction - the helium is totally transparent. This is in contrast to a conventional PWR where the water coolant is a catalyst - boiling or loss of coolant causes collapse of the nuclear reaction.

    The safety of the pebble reactors come from 3 things:

    1) thermal expansion of the fuel as it heats up causes 'dilution' of the fuel and 'doppler broadening' both of which shut down the nuclear reaction when operating temperatures are exceeded.

    2) Very high melting point of the fuel (>2200 C) means that massive temperature excursions of the fuel are safe

    3) the very dilute fuel embedded in large volumes of graphite has a very low power to volume ratio. This coupled with a tiny reactor (with large surface area to volume ratio) means that convection of air around the outside is sufficient to cool the fuel.

    So, in the event of loss of coolant - the fuel temperature will rise from it's nominal 1000C towards 1600C. As the temp rises, the heat production will fall, eventually at 1600C the heat production will equal rate of heat removal by natural air circulation and the system will stabilise.

    The same passive safety principle as in point 1, is used in modern water cooled reactor designs - together with the water acting as a catalyst. This dramatically lowers the risk of meltdown accident, and improves the stability of the reactor. However, because the fuel is very concentrated and dense with very high power density, good quality cooling must be maintained at all costs - so sophisticated backup systems are still required despite improvements in stability.

    The disadvantages of the pebble reactor are: 1) that the pebbles are made of flammable carbon - if the helium coolant is lost, and air gets into the reactor, it will burn with great vigour. 2) it relies on the microscopic coating of each tiny fuel grain to contain the radioactive waste. Early prototypes of this type of reactor had intractable problems with waste leaking out of the fuel and contaiminating the reactor. 3) the fuel is very bulky which can pose storage problems. Reprocessing of this fuel form to retrieve unburned uranium or reduce bulk is also unlikely to be practical.

  • by cheesybagel ( 670288 ) on Friday September 03, 2004 @08:57AM (#10148131)
    Chernobyl's left a dead zone that shows what Three Mile Island could have done if it had gone only slightly further.

    A dead zone? A nature preserve is more like it. Since the place was irradiated and people don't go there anymore, the place is turning into a forest. Sure, the animals and plants are irradiated and that will shorten their lifespan and cause cancer, etc. Well, if people were still there most wouldn't even be living there. I wouldn't be surprised to see people living there again in 30 years once the more dangerous short half-lived elements decay. Just like in Hiroshima.

    People go to spas for health reasons, yet spas are usually pretty radioactive [orau.org].

    Regarding Pu toxicity, I quote [state.sc.us]:

    The latent effect of exposure to 239Pu was the subject of a Los Alamos National Laboratory study. This paper provides an update to an ongoing study of the health of a group of 26 young males who worked on the Manhattan Engineer District's Project at Los Alamos in 1944 and 1945. During this time, these men experienced significant contamination of 239Pu. Of the 26, 21 had left Los Alamos by 1946, one left in 1948, and none had significant additional plutonium exposure after 1945. Exposure was primarily by inhalation, though some also were exposed through cuts in the skin. The internal plutonium deposition ranged from 50 to 3,180 Bq and the effective dose ranged from 0.1 to 7.2 Sv. The median deposition and dose were 565 Bq and 1.25 Sv, respectively. The mortality of this group was compared to the mortality of U.S. white males. The standardized mortality ratio (STR), calculated by comparing the mortality of the subject group to the U.S. white male population, indicates that the exposed Los Alamos group experienced statistically significant fewer cancers and longer lives. Since this may be due to the education level of the Los Alamos group (these 26 had attained a higher level of education than the average U.S. male and this generally correlates with a healthier life style), they were also compared with a population of unexposed Los Alamos workers with comparable hire dates and general education levels. This comparison indicates that the general mortality, as well as cancer-induced mortality, of the two groups were statistically similar. Thus, the exposure of these 26 men to 239Pu did not significantly affect their health over their lifetimes.

    So yes, Pu is dangerous (what isn't?), yes it should be carefully handled, but I still find it funny that some people think we should outright ban it, while its sitting in containers at special facilities, while cheerfully getting injected with Botox (botulism toxin) to remove a wrinkle...

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