Longhorn's Copy Protection Standard 558
hype7 writes "The Register is reporting that Microsoft have attempted to force a last-minute CD protection standard on the recording industry in order to ship it in Longhorn. From the article: "Any such deal would see Microsoft support 'an industry-wide copy control platform' built in to its next-generation Longhorn operating system, with the computer giant instructing labels that the compatible secure CDs must contain additional multimedia content, such as bonus tracks, 'as a quid pro quo for adding effective [DRM] into the consumer experience'". It looks like everyone except the consumer is going to win on this one - Microsoft controls the secure format, the RIAA gets a secure format, and the consumer loses all their rights for the "quid pro quo" of a bonus track."
garage bands (Score:5, Insightful)
Real copy protection would be great (Score:5, Insightful)
95% of all windows boxes must contain 100% pirated software.
Encryption Circumvention Devices? (Score:5, Insightful)
big deal... (Score:2, Insightful)
Crap (Score:5, Insightful)
We imagine Apple won't be willing to play ball on this front.
Likely not, but what if the files are DMR-locked (somehow) to only play with a Longhorn-capable client? Reverse engineering would go against the DMCA likely.
Quid Pro Quo (Score:5, Insightful)
And...standardization is good, just a single standard to bypass if we want to make backups instead of having to learn how to bypass multiple protections.
Sure, call me a pirate, but when want to play games on my laptop, I don't want to have to tote the CD around, I'd much mount the disc image to a virtual drive so I don't have to tote a breakable CD for every game I might play while traveling.
Is this a joke? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:who cares (Score:5, Insightful)
Quid pro quo? (Score:2, Insightful)
Now then, the part I object to is that we don't have much choice about whether this bargain is agreeable or not--it's take it or leave it, with probably no way for us to choose no DRM at all.
Of course, I would expect that it will be swiftly cracked, and I doubt they'll be able to fix it any more than they can with CSS, DMCA be damned.
And this will work how exactly? (Score:5, Insightful)
gored by longhorn (Score:5, Insightful)
Sounds so arrogant (Score:5, Insightful)
Buying CD's? (Score:5, Insightful)
ITunes restrictions are reasonable enough that they don't get in my way...and it's cheaper. I don't need a physical CD anymore. Music on demand. I like it.
DiVX all over again (Score:5, Insightful)
This'll be like DiVX and TurboTax. Oh, and Windows XP.
Face it: people without longhorn won't suffer, people with it will, all previous generations of appliance-level devices won't work with the item, and we'll still be able to make perfect copies of an almost-perfect first-generation analog copy. No upside, a zillion downsides.
I can't wait for this show...
Re:Encryption Circumvention Devices? (Score:3, Insightful)
If it plays in a CD player it has two channels of 16-bit 44.1KHz PCM audio. You're not circumventing encryption, you're just not listening to the shit that tells you not to rip the unencrypted PCM streams.
Re:garage bands (Score:0, Insightful)
Not going to happen (Score:0, Insightful)
Re:Encryption Circumvention Devices? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Ok... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Encryption Circumvention Devices? (Score:5, Insightful)
I've seen things like this before... (Score:5, Insightful)
Trying to push something at the last second never works. There will be mistakes, a need for new patches, who knows.
I would think as long as a CD-Rom can read a disk as a data disk, then this will all be meaningless. Someone will write an application which will skip over the "bonus" track. The only way this can work is if MS decides their windows media player is the only player they will allow. But didn't the courts tell MS they could not do that?
Re:Other Initiatives... (Score:5, Insightful)
1. I have to wait for "Longhorn" to be released
-AND-
2. The record industry has only two weeks to come to agreement on a standard?
Well, this falls under "not in my lifetime", so I guess I don't have much to worry about.
And when I do, well, then it's off to Some Other OS that doesn't feel it needful to be an "enforcer" of some industry association that cares for nothing save the preservation and enhancement of their revenues.
My real objection to DRM and other such horseshit? I'm not a criminal, and I'll not be treated as though at any instant I might become one. I guess that's the most galling part of the whole charade.
Don't use our software, or we'll sue! (Score:5, Insightful)
Microsoft got to be the dominant OS vendor by lowering the barriers for acquisition of its products. No copy protection (mostly), and it came on every box.
I guess they learned their lesson. If you leave off the copy protection, those silly consumers will start using the stuff right and left and then where will you be?
Market share is everything.
And Microsoft pushing around the RIAA -- that's wonderful stuff.
Competition Good (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Ok... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:big deal... (Score:2, Insightful)
I'll bet that... (Score:2, Insightful)
The music industry/hollywood are trying to kill-off CD and DVD as fast as they can because they are copyable.
I bet it won't be long before the only way to buy movies/music will be over the net via a DRM mechanism and traditional store-bought media (and all non-DRM players ) have a very limited time left to run.
Re:IANAL (Score:2, Insightful)
No problem, I'll add it for you.
Re:Real copy protection would be great (Score:1, Insightful)
Bonus Track? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Encryption Circumvention Devices? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Real copy protection would be great (Score:5, Insightful)
You're under the impression most people deliberately buy their MS OS today; they don't.
They buy a computer, and the OS comes with it. The idea of buying an OS-less computer isn't something that J.Q.Public does, nor will they when Longhorn comes out. The OEM PCs will be preloaded with it, and that will be that.
Re:garage bands (Score:3, Insightful)
Stop Whining... (Score:5, Insightful)
This is one of many cases that I think the free market will work. If people don't think the quid pro quo value is in their favor, than the RIAA loses because people will stop buying their product.
Re:You'll be back... (Score:5, Insightful)
They do their work, read their email and go about their business and when finished, turn the PC off and live life offline.
For those that get stuck with this problem, there's always a PS2 or Xbox.
Re:Stop Whining... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:I don't see the logic (Score:5, Insightful)
No, they'll download it from their favorite P2P service after one person rips it.
You don't quite get this 'Internet' thing, do you?
*sigh* (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Encryption Circumvention Devices? (Score:4, Insightful)
It's what the people want.
Look, I don't understand it either, but for some reason the "public" wants this crap. They want something easy, and formula - like Jessica Simpson. Something absolutely bland and devoid of ... well, anything. I keep hearing the suburban cows at work talking about the likes of Britney Spears or Ashley Simpson - I guess that is Jessica's younger sister. I was flipping around one day on MTV, and there she was. OMFG - she can't sing any better than I can! Yet she is supposedly popular. It seems like a big joke, kind of like that movie "Trading Places". Someone is just proving a point, that they can take a nobody with no talent and turn them into a star.
What pisses me off is that it is so hard to ignore it! I don't know much about pop culture these days, but I pick up (more than) enough just flipping through the channels. These shows like ET, Access Hollywood, etc are banality^2. Do people really give a flying F about this stuff? It is all just shameless fluff. And people seem to want it. They read People, and talk about JLo and "Brad and Jen" like they actually know them. I really don't get it.
That's bad how? (Score:4, Insightful)
And that's exactly what shit like this is. It ain't bad news for apple, it's bad news for the fuckwits who get suckered into buying trojan horse bullshit GARBAGE.
Bonus Tracks, or Commercials? (Score:3, Insightful)
This is a classic marketing move on Microsoft's part. First, you hit them with the down side. You will have to include this information on all of the CD's you produce. Before anyone can think of the potential options, Microsoft gives an example that the music industry is ok with, "bonus tracks".
Not so bad on its surface, but what "bonus tracks" could Microsoft possible what to add? The obvious answer is commercials! Just like DVD's. Microsoft will control, and license, the area that will play to every user before they listen to there music. Each time they play the CD.
It's a brilliant move, but one that is very scary at the same time.
Re:garage bands (Score:5, Insightful)
Generally this is true but it is not always so. There are many artists who have taken a second way and are involved with labels which are not affiliated with the RIAA. I know of several artists [madison-park.com] who have created their own labels to distribute their music and are available in all the major retail stores, amazon, itunes, tower records, etc. Getting distribution using this method is difficult but it isn't impossible. If more people would take the DIY distribution approach we'd have a lot more diversity in music than we do now and the artists would be getting paid far more.
Re:Bring on the Fair Use Lawsuits (Score:3, Insightful)
Not to mention that there are countries where refusing to honour fair use would make this completely illegal. There are countries where it is a consumer right to copy any media for personal use. Many countries have very deliberate laws governing and protecting consumer access to copyrighted or licensed material, and have had as much for many, many years. It seems we've had problems like this in the past, where interested parties used the law as a weapon to seriously restrict access to media, partially in order to create a monopoly on that access.
Restricting those rights may well be illegal (standard disclaimer: IANAL) and it would be very difficult for corporate interests like the RIAA in the US and Microsoft anywhere sue anyone accused of circumventing or hacking this particular DRM scheme. They certainly cannot stop me from copying every CD I own as many times as I want. Nor can they stop my friends from borrowing my CDs and doing the same.
It's the fucking law around here.
Look at the trees, not the forest (Score:5, Insightful)
Microsoft appears to have offered DRM to the music industry, in exchange for which the music industry must include additional content over unprotected media. This appears to be a move by Microsoft to spread the winnings around the table, if only a little. Here's how I see it:
. Microsoft gets its own DRM technology approved by the industry, and with control of the main PC platform establishes it as the de-facto standard.
. The music industry gets a widely-deployed DRM technology to stem what it sees as an erosion of its marketplace.
. Consumers who purchase DRM-enabled media instead of standard media would get additional content not available elsewhere.
I think this move should be acknowledged by the digirati as a small step towards a real solution, though not the final one. It appears Microsoft is attempting to exact a concession from the music industry on behalf of consumers. (Of course, it would be more heroic to suffer a cost themselves, but Microsoft is anything but financially stupid.)
Now for some problems with the alleged proposal:
. DRM is DRM, and some of us don't want any of it.
. If you must have DRM, an open standard would be preferred.
. It's likely only a matter of time before the DRM is broken, bringing the music industry back to square one.
. Additional content for our troubles is a nice touch - make it worthwhile (like videos of all the tracks, lyrics, Bio's, discographies, Lo-Fi non-DRM MP3's for portable devices, etc.).
But let's not just hammer the participants out of reflex. Slashdot may be a mob, but we're supposed to be a smart mob.
Really? (Score:2, Insightful)
a modest consumer proposal. (Score:3, Insightful)
I don't know when this becomes critical mass, but I find the trend in media disturbing. But, before it does, and I don't suggest the time, place, or mechanism, I wouldn't mind seeing a mass customer revolt. It wouldn't take long for the RIAA to raise eyebrows if virtually everyone stopped purchasing music until the future of "owning" music looked less draconian. I know much of this is driven by the fear of pirating, etc., but the future does more than assure less piracy and seems more to ensure beaucoups des revenues (pardon the butchered French) for RIAA and cohorts.
If we can organize flash-mobs, we should be able to organize flash-boycotts (assuming there are others who see the trend in media control as untenable).
Go Mircosoft! (Score:1, Insightful)
Microsoft controls the secure format
IRONY - 2. A sort of humor, ridicule, or light sarcasm, which adopts a mode of speech the meaning of which is contrary to the literal sense of the words.
Analog out /Analog In (Score:2, Insightful)
I don't hear a difference. But then maybe it's my tired old ears?
Let's just Stop giving them Money (Score:5, Insightful)
-This whole mess mkes me really mad, whatever happened to the Consumers Rights, or did those die in the 80's? It seems that everything today is geared at protecting the Big Companies. perfect example Grandmas and 12year olds get sued, and it's ok. This is a sick world we live in. Money is not everything, information is everything.
Does this mean that... (Score:5, Insightful)
Microsoft is moving their monopoly control onto the CD music industry? Will these copy-protected CDs be able to work on any other platforms other than Longhorn? What about Linux and Mac users? Will we be locked out?
I find it so infuriating that the moronic recording industry is implementing these sorts of things. If a CD is copy protected, someone is going to get copies of the tracks onto P2P networks somehow anyway, and they will be accessible only through illegal means. They are forcing legitimate customers to resort to music piracy as their only avenue to get the latest albums.
I'm honestly one of those people that used to buy a lot of CDs. I have no qualms about paying for it legitimately, so I find it offensive that I have to be subjected to copy protection to prevent me from getting it onto my computer, which is my stereo as well. Not only can't the SuperDrive on my Titanium PowerBook rip the CDs, but it can't even play them as regular audio CDs either. I no longer buy CDs anymore, because my laptop can't read them and I can't play them, because they are all copy protected. I was a good customer and now I don't buy their products!
Doesn't that say something about the shit-for-brains strategy they're implementing? I don't share my ripped tracks on P2P networks. I actually find it useful to own CDs because they serve as backup copies. And since they are uncompressed, you can re-rip them using different algorithms, like if you choose decide to switch from the default 128 kbps to 192 kbps or higher for better quality, or if you decide to start using the Apple Lossless [apple.com] audio codec.
They are actually stopping me from buying their product. They are such fucking unbelievable idiots. And guess what? Music from the recording industries isn't necessary in one's life as much as their marketing would like you to think. I'm fine with the music I already have. Like I said, I was a good customer- a really good customer- so I already acquired a decent collection of CDs before this copyright crap came along. They are locking out honest paying customers. That is the dumbest thing ever.
What should an industry association care for? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Who'll be buying CDs... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Crap (Score:3, Insightful)
I'd think that would be difficult to impossible for Windows to lock out Apple without it being accused of egregious violations of the settlement agreement. If Apple doesn't want to let people use iTunes to copy files to the hard drive in AAC format, that's stupid-- but fine. If Microsoft doesn't want to let Apple's iTunes copy files to the hard drive, or doesn't want to allow Macs to play these new DRMed CDs, that's probably Microsoft taking advantage of it's dominant monopoly position to crush competition in violation of at least one settlement agreement-- not fine. Unless by "fine" you mean "Gigabuck Federal fine, followed by summary judgement ordering corporate break-up."
I doubt Microsoft is stupid enough to try screwing Apple that egregiously and publicly; after all, Apple can be made to pay "reasonable and non-discriminatory" license fees. Linux, on the other hand, is set up to be well and truly screwed via DMCA, patents, and the RNDLAs, and the GPL.
The whole thing is stupid. (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Real copy protection would be great (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Encryption Circumvention Devices? (Score:4, Insightful)
How? Your audio CD player will only have digital line out, which will only work with other "trusted" devices.
"will have" is where you went wrong. If the format works with current CD players, it is easily coppied. Period. The only way to prevent that is what you are talking about, which would require a replacement of *all* CD players. The only way to ensure that is to have the CD not be backward compatible. But if they do that, no one will buy CDv2.
So, no matter what they do, they can not enforce copy protection on CDs without removing backward compatibility.
Re:Bring on the Fair Use Lawsuits (Score:2, Insightful)
I don't think this has much to do about fair use, right to copy, or the assumption that all technically adept people are guilty until proven innocent.
I think this is all about an end run around the weak DOJ ruling concerning Microsoft's monopolistic practices.
This coupled with their patent attack provides a two-fold prong to create a Microsoft monopoly without violating the terms of the DOJ ruling.
The result of these two business practices is as follows.
While I am not a lawyer, this all seems to be a perfectly legitimate business direction to take. This is based on the following business model.
This market strategy ignores revolutionary changes. However, with enough stress and marketing revolutionary changes can be thwarted by discouraging people to think.
Of course, this is bad for the economy, bad for the consumer, and bad for advancement in any field.
IBM tried this when it pre-announced products in the 1970's. This basically froze the entire third party market for IBM mainframe hardware and software. DOJ found this to be a predatory practice and prevented IBM from doing this.
Microsoft's tactic while similar (keep everyone guessing when Longhorn will be out and what it will contain) is also more draconian. By trying to create licensed industry-wide standards, they hope to control various key technologies which will allow them to control the markets. By patenting commonly used software techniques Microsoft can then persue courtroom remedies against selected targets.
It appears that the IETF and Marid are a bit smarter than that. I doubt that RIAA and MPAA are. Look for Microsoft to actively prevent multimedia applications from running on non-Microsoft products.
Of course, this begs the question: Why doesn't Microsoft truly innovate? Other successful technical companies have.
Re:Real copy protection would be great (Score:3, Insightful)
The operating system isn't the only thing that eventually will be bolted down like %@#%, every other open source project will receive a boost and every commercial piece of software that goes the route of insanely invasive copy protection will receive some amount of brain drain to that.
But anyways, yea, bring on the INSANE DRM, drive us away from your popculture, your pop-OS, your pop everything. You -do- have the right to make money off your intellectual property, so just go nuts with it. You don't know about the kind of grassroots support you actually get through piracy anyways, so screw it! Opensource deserves -those- kinds of people. Make it as proprietary, isolated and obscure as you can, people will just put up with it forever right? Nobody ever falls from #1.
Re:Real copy protection would be great (Score:4, Insightful)
Sadly, real copy protection would probably be followed by legislation (via MS-Congress) making it illegal to distribute hardware or software that didn't include the DRM.
Sound far-fetched? Try buying an HDTV tuner card to build a Myth-TV box after the middle of next year that will ignore the broadcast flag.
Re:Boringhorn (Score:3, Insightful)
Therefore, looping though analog cables will not make the music sound worse.
If you were using a 16 bit D/A, then the analog transfer WOULD degrade the signal. But not with 24 bit D/A/D
--jeff++
Re:Real copy protection would be great (Score:3, Insightful)
I think it's more fundamental than that for most users: they buy a computer. Period. They plug it in, turn it on and get a desktop with applications where they can do things. The fact that there is a special program sitting between them and the hardware is not something they think about. The fact that there are other such special programs, each with their own strengths and weaknesses, would not occur to them.
...laura
Re:garage bands (Score:4, Insightful)
Noted.
Fortunately, some of us understand that $money$ is not the most important thing in the world, and would not actually prostitute themselves, regardless of the price.
Bemused pity is the appropriate feeling for those whose sense of self worth and identity are so weak that they are just waiting for a chance to become a whore.
Re:Real copy protection would be great (Score:3, Insightful)
Yank the windows interface out of a user and ask them to use a Linux desktop and you'll definately get mixed results.
Unfortunately, the OS is the medium to run the apps you want to run. And if that means you can't run Bonzai buddy, J.Q. Public won't take to it.
Re:Look at the trees, not the forest (Score:4, Insightful)
Buhahahahahahahah! What are you smoking? Can I have some?
The sole purpose of the supposed "bonus content" is to ensure that the disk has at least some crippled content to entice consumers into buying crippled hardware. Content which almost inevitably would have been available one way or another anyway.
There is absolutely nothing pro-consumer about this. There is no way in hell this is any sort of step towards a "real solution", and there is no way in hell I will EVER buy a single peice of such crippled crap.
Perhaps you aren't aware of just what Microsoft's Longhorn DRM system is. It requires you to have new hardware with a Trust chip embedded. A chip designed to keep secrets from it's owner, designed to lock the owner out of his own files, designed to turn over effective ownership of the machine to someone else and deny the owner control of his own computer.
Many notebook computers abd some desktop machines are already shipping with an embedded Trust chip. The plan is that in a few months every single new computer will be shipped with such a chip standard. When you replace your old obsolete machine you will simply be HANDED a Trusted Computing compatible machine. So over the next 4 ears or so essentially every computer will be replaced with a Trusted compatible machine through normal obsolesence.
An increasing quantity of software will only install on a Trusted machine. And increasing number of data files will only be usable on a Trusted machine. An increasing number of websites will only be viewable with a Trusted machine. Microsoft has anounced it intends e-mail which will only be viewable on a Trusted machine.
And in a few years, when most machines have been replaced with Trusted machines, ISP's can even start installing Cisco's announced Trusted Computing routers. These routers deny you and internet connection unless you have a Trusted machine and run the mandated software. They are being billed as "fighting viruses". As a Washington DC Gobal Technology Summit the president's Cyber Security advisor has called on ISP's to plan to install exactly this sort of hardware, and to make Tusted Computing compliance a MANDATORY part of the terms of service to get internet access. And perhaps you've noticed the recent Slashdot dupe story about Intel wanting to fix/replace the internet - same deal - Trusted Computing only networking is part of their plan. The Intel Prescott CPU already has a Trust chip embedded within the CPU itself. The plan is for all CPU's to eventually come with Trusted Computing built in.
Trusted Computing is supposedly "voluntary", but you'll increasingly be locked out of software and files and websites and e-mail and eventually the internet itself unless you submit.
THIS is the system Microsoft wants the RIAA to start including on music CD's, to drive initial adoption of Trusted Computing "enhanced" hardware.
-
Duh... (Score:4, Insightful)
The behind-the-scenes politics looks really interesting. MS makes contract with all sorts of online music resellers. MS then releases new media player with NEW DRM and opens OWN online store. MS announces "breakthru" in music DRM and tells RIAA they "must act now!"
Is this a race to see how fast they'll get slapped down or what...oh wait...they've got that HUGE dividend comming up real soon...maybe they're trying to pump the stock price before they cash out!!! The writing's on the wall. MS is planning SOMETHING anti-competitive and hostile to the market real-soon-now and wondering when the Justice Dept will get called in for the smack down