Please create an account to participate in the Slashdot moderation system

 



Forgot your password?
typodupeerror
×
Microsoft Operating Systems Security Software

Gates on Spyware and OS Competition 690

Ant writes "CNET's News.com has an article that says Microsoft plans to offer its own anti-spyware software." prostoalex writes "Both OsNews and InfoWorld talk about Bill Gates' speech at the Computer History Museum in California. Gates is noting that Linux is taking over, and claims that 10 years forward Linux and Windows will be the only OSs left in the market."
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

Gates on Spyware and OS Competition

Comments Filter:
  • 800lb Gorilla (Score:5, Insightful)

    by erick99 ( 743982 ) <homerun@gmail.com> on Sunday October 03, 2004 @01:07AM (#10417873)
    It would make sense for Microsoft to make an anti-spyware product, after all, they should (but may not) know the most about how to protect Windows from spyware. I would also think that given the sheer amount of brainpower that they could apply to the task that they would put forth a good product. But, they have not been known as innovaters in the application world (I know, some would say in the OS world as well). Anyway, I wonder how the other folks who make and sell (or give away) anti-spyware software will react to the 800lb gorilla's entrance into their domain?
  • Mac OS? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by tuxlove ( 316502 ) on Sunday October 03, 2004 @01:09AM (#10417877)
    Gee Bill, what about Mac OS? Considering how good that OS is these days, not to mention the Mac hardware, you probably shouldn't turn your back on it in a dark alley. I think it'll be here 10 years from now.
  • Re:Mac OS? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by bladx ( 816461 ) on Sunday October 03, 2004 @01:11AM (#10417888)
    yeah, i agree

    what's the deal? my summer internship (a school district) uses macs like crazy.. of my experience (and i know, it is not very much) mac os x has, by far, been the most stable OS i have had to use in the workplace. i'm not sure why it would go away so suddenly.
  • by thedbp ( 443047 ) on Sunday October 03, 2004 @01:11AM (#10417890)
    Is Bill telling his employees in the Mac Business Unit that all their hard work is going to be for nothing? Is he planning on shutting down the MacBU, an that's why he's saying Mac OS won't be around?

    man, that's really f-ed up. Maybe the Windows Office team are getting jealous of how good the Mac version of Office is getting and are planning on burning the MacBU to the ground...
  • Re:800lb Gorilla (Score:5, Insightful)

    by TheSpoom ( 715771 ) * <slashdot@ubCOMMAerm00.net minus punct> on Sunday October 03, 2004 @01:13AM (#10417895) Homepage Journal
    MS Engineer 1: "Hmm, here's a security vulnerability."

    MS PHB: "Well, let's get to work on patching it."

    MS Engineer 2: "Wait, couldn't we not patch it and instead sell the patch together with others as a piece of software with an annual update fee?"

    MS PHB: "Congratulations, you just got promoted."
  • Re:800lb Gorilla (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Osrin ( 599427 ) * on Sunday October 03, 2004 @01:13AM (#10417904) Homepage
    It will be the same response that Microsoft always seen to get when they introduce something like this... lots of people complaining that they're not doing it, then they build something and lots of people complain that they've made a change.

    "Microsoft need to do something about security" - Microsoft release XPSP2 - "Microsoft changed a bunch of securty settings and now my badly written app does not work anymore".
  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 03, 2004 @01:16AM (#10417918)
    Why spend the man power fixing his faulty product when you can use 1/2 the time time and just create a bandaid fix!!
  • prostoalex (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 03, 2004 @01:16AM (#10417920)
    Gates is noting that Linux is taking over, and claims that 10 years forward Linux and Windows will be the only OSs left in the market.

    The only thing I see is in the OsNews article where Bill Gates is quoted to say "fast forward 10 years, the two leading OS technologies will be Linux and Windows." But "leading" is very different from "only". Nowhere does it say all other OSs will disappear.

    prostoalex, YOU must substantiate your statement NOW. Or are you spreading more anti-MS FUD??
  • Re:800lb Gorilla (Score:3, Insightful)

    by MoThugz ( 560556 ) on Sunday October 03, 2004 @01:16AM (#10417926) Homepage
    It would make sense for Microsoft to make an anti-spyware product, after all, they should (but may not) know the most about how to protect Windows from spyware.


    If they are really are the ones who know the most about protecting Windows from spyware, then almost every Windows user is doomed.

    Heck, Mr Gates himself faces the very same spyware problem.
  • Anti spyware? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by News for nerds ( 448130 ) on Sunday October 03, 2004 @01:20AM (#10417943) Homepage
    If MS just a bit disclose the hidden places of OS to the very owners of OS/PC, spyware will be immediately found and killed. Just make those HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\Curr entVersion\Run keys and other obscure parts more open and clear to users. Make non-technologically-competitive pieces of OS components open source. Don't lie to your own consumers.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 03, 2004 @01:20AM (#10417944)
    There is no OS per se, on critical systems. Most are embedded devices running proprietary code, and usually just enough to perform the function they were designed to do.

    When you hear reports of computer troubles at nuclear plants, it's more likely to be SoBig.x trashing the mail server, than slammer causing a SCRAM.
  • Sounds bad to me. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by rincebrain ( 776480 ) on Sunday October 03, 2004 @01:23AM (#10417957) Homepage
    Is it just me, or does this sound like a revenue service waiting to happen?

    I submit that Microsoft will only judge as spyware products which either install themselves without explicit permission, or products which are not owned by companies who pay Microsoft.

    I hate to be so cynical, but I've been burned by too many Microsoft "features" [in recent memory: IE upgrades only available to XP users, and a Windows ME setup CD refusing to install to a FAT16 partition formatted by its own boot disk] to believe much of what they say.

    Just my $0.02 USD.
  • by khasim ( 1285 ) <brandioch.conner@gmail.com> on Sunday October 03, 2004 @01:35AM (#10418001)
    Rather than look at how the crap gets installed and dealing with THAT, let's talk about software to remove the crap AFTER it gets installed.

    Here's some advice, Bill. It's easier to prevent the stuff from being installed then it is to clean up all the millions of variations that will be out there.

    Not to mention this will be another DAILY download update along with:
    #1. Security updates
    #2. Anti-virus signatures
  • He's right (Score:5, Insightful)

    by SilentChris ( 452960 ) on Sunday October 03, 2004 @01:37AM (#10418013) Homepage
    Gates makes the point, which is correct, that UNIX is losing marketshare, not Windows. If anything, scientists/network admins are moving to a combination of Linux and Mac just because UNIX-creators (*cough* Sun *cough*) haven't innovated in years.

    The battle for desktop supremacy, however, is already won. I like the fact that I can run UNIX apps on my iBook, but I just built a tower for Windows. There's just too much breadth of software to shift away from the platform. MS has also come up with some good stuff recently (.NET, which in some cases is what Java should've been) that cement their hold.

    Also, one would think UNIX refugees coming to Mac would boost the platform on the desktop. Not happening. I think people are finally settling on the fact that UNIX is a rock-solid server, but that doesn't necessarily make it a great desktop. Whether it's Windows or some other windowing system that wins the crown, I'm not sure, but classic UNIX is pretty much finished.
  • Re:Mac-Tel? (Score:1, Insightful)

    by bot24 ( 771104 ) <slashdot@FREEBSDbot24.ig3.net minus bsd> on Sunday October 03, 2004 @01:40AM (#10418028) Homepage
    The problem is, most software is PC(x86) or Macintosh(OSX) compatible. However, PC means x86 machine with Windows, and Macintosh means PPC machine with OSX. x86 OSX would have the same problem that plagues Linux n00bs: Linux compatible could mean x86, PPC, IA64, ARM, SH3, etc. Having always thought of their computer being a Windows PC or a Mac, and know running Linux, they wonder why PackageX-PS2.rpm won't run on their computer.
    Another problem would be that there are differences between the architectures enough that source code may require changes before it will execute correctly. There would be no software that would run on your x86 OSX machine. Companies would most likely need to port their applications before OSX-x86 would be useful.
    This might be secretly happening right now. NDA companies that develop major products for your OS and have them start porting. Don't let the MBU know or their might be an in company leak.
  • Re:RTFA! (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 03, 2004 @01:42AM (#10418036)
    Yet more proof (not that more was needed) that Slashdot is a fucking ridiculous joke. The only thing this site is worth is trolling a bunch of socially retarded dipshits.
  • Re:Mac OS? (Score:2, Insightful)

    by GFLPraxis ( 745118 ) on Sunday October 03, 2004 @01:43AM (#10418040) Homepage Journal
    " People have been predicting the death of MacOS and Apple for almost 2 decades now. That "wizard" over at PCMag, John Dvorak, has been doing so for almost that long, and look at where that prediction has gone."

    Uh...this year is the twentieth anniversary of MacOS. I don't think they were predicting the death of MacOS and Apple 2 decades ago...unless they were predicting the death of MacOS the instant it came out. lol

    Though your point is correct (above is just a nitpick)- people have been predicting the death of MacOS for a while, and Apple's stocks have been shooting through the roof since OS X came out. lol.

    Check out the Apple Death Knell...
    http://www.macobserver.com/appledeathknell/index.s html [macobserver.com]
  • Re:Excellent. (Score:2, Insightful)

    by benna ( 614220 ) <mimenarrator@g m a i l .com> on Sunday October 03, 2004 @01:44AM (#10418042) Journal
    Too bad microsoft will probobly just charge spyware companies a fee to have their crap not get blocked.
  • by belmolis ( 702863 ) <billposer@a[ ].mit.edu ['lum' in gap]> on Sunday October 03, 2004 @01:49AM (#10418064) Homepage

    Evil intentions though he may have, Gates isn't an idiot. He may not like it, but he can see that SCO has made a complete cock-up of its anti-Linux scam.

  • by quax ( 19371 ) on Sunday October 03, 2004 @01:50AM (#10418068)
    You can pretty much spin this as "see even Bill Gates says Linux will be around ten years from now".

    This should give pointy hair bosses pause in claiming that Linux is just too risky.

    What a huge step to be so publicly recognized as the most prominent threat to MS for an OS that is not controlled by any one cooperation.

    In the end it will be inevitable that an OS becomes a commodity. MS tries to fight hard against this by building up the OS to do everything short of singing and dancing for you but I don't think that will save them in the long run.
  • by microbox ( 704317 ) on Sunday October 03, 2004 @01:56AM (#10418091)
    10 years forward Linux and Windows will be the only OSs left in the market

    What a politically contrived statement. He can't say "only windows" (read monopoly), so their must be at least 1 other OS, and people would laugh if an open source operating system wasn't included.

    Now all of a sudden he takes the wind out of the sails of the Linux zealots, and appears all controversial. Yep... in 10 years it there will be Windows and *nix, just like today.
  • by nounderscores ( 246517 ) on Sunday October 03, 2004 @02:02AM (#10418116)
    http://news.scotsman.com/scitech.cfm?id=1144882004 [scotsman.com]

    The above link has three pertinant quotes.

    "Microsoft's fortunes grew with personal computers or, more specifically, supplying the software for what used to be called "IBM-compatible PCs". It is easy to forget that 20 years ago there were a number of standards competing for dominance. (Of the others, only Apple survives.)"

    "Google knows it cannot remain just a search engine company, because that leaves it vulnerable if someone else comes along and does it better. That is why it keeps adding services. The best publicised has been its proposed e-mail service, Gmail, which has upset privacy activists because it will include advertising based on the content of the e-mails. But it is likely to prove extremely popular because it will make searching through e-mail much easier and quicker, and because it offers a gigabyte of storage. For most users, that means they will never have to delete another e-mail. "

    "But Microsoft is vulnerable if a competitor shifts the focus away from the PC and on to the internet. And we all know the company most capable of that."

    Take that all to the extreme - If network centric computing and a company like google go to the logical conclusion of their efforts, subsuming encyclopedia software (remember encarta?), email, games and eventually word processing and other applications into an always on, globally available internet technology that would free you from not just your desktop but from even needing a permanent computer of your own, wouldn't the most logical thing to beat be problems with privacy?

    After all, if you can eliminate "spying" on a distributed system like that, then you've aready eliminated spyware as a matter of course (maybe by using thin clients and making all the intelligence and security reside in the server and communication layers).
  • by HungSquirrel ( 790165 ) on Sunday October 03, 2004 @02:08AM (#10418128) Homepage
    Gates said Microsoft will offer software to detect malicious applications and that the company will keep it up-to-date on an ongoing basis.

    Now the only question is what Microsoft feels to be a good update schedule for their anti-malware software. Are we going to see once a month release cycles that detect spyware that has been out for six months the way they wait six months [silicon.com] to release patches for known vulnerabilites on Windows Update?
  • by Quiberon ( 633716 ) on Sunday October 03, 2004 @02:08AM (#10418129) Journal
    A free one and a non-free one. What they're called, who knows. The free one will successively drive out the non-free one, though.
  • Re:Mac OS? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by WiseWeasel ( 92224 ) on Sunday October 03, 2004 @02:08AM (#10418130)
    The falling price of components will also drive down the prices of Macs. There will always be a market for higher end computers, with actual though put into design and implementation, with the unified vision of a central authority. In fact, the rise of Linux and other open-sourced operating systems will only help Apple integrate Macs with other common OSs, as standards will be truly open. If Linux had the marketshare to define standards, that would open the door to any number of competitors who could make inter-operative software. A rise in the Linux platform's popularity (at the expense of Microsoft's marketshare) would only help smaller players gain traction. While the future of PowerPC is uncertain, depending largely on IBM's dedication to it, Apple and the MacOS are bound to have markets well into the future. If a company can assure tight integration and thoughtful design of hardware and software, there will always be those willing to pay a premium for a premium user experience.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 03, 2004 @02:09AM (#10418133)
    " If Apple ever releases a PC version of OSX, M$ is screwed. But that won't happen now, will it?"

    This sems to be a common wet dream amoungst x86 PC users (you never hear Apple users lusting after a x86 machine). I recommend you buy an Apple and just get it over with. You'll be happier. Apple will be happier. The only ones who wouldn't be happy is those with a heavy investment in all things x86.
  • Paranoia (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Stormy Dragon ( 800799 ) on Sunday October 03, 2004 @02:10AM (#10418136)
    Yeah, and Symmantec and McAffee are secretly making all the computer viruses so they can sell anti-virus software.

    Sounds like you need to get your tinfoil hat resized again.
  • Windows?!? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by linolium ( 713219 ) on Sunday October 03, 2004 @02:21AM (#10418166)
    Don't you think they should improve their operating system's security before they sell additional anti-spyware software? This just seems like another way to coax more money out of consumers..
  • by westyx ( 95706 ) on Sunday October 03, 2004 @02:23AM (#10418173)
    uhuh. which is why microsoft is opening up the source code to windows to said countries (like china).

    backdoors don't work too well if the target can see them.
  • Re:Mac OS? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by tonywong ( 96839 ) on Sunday October 03, 2004 @02:23AM (#10418175) Homepage
    That's because Mr. Gates doesn't perceive Apple as being an OS vendor unto themselves. He looks at Apple as the premier research division of Microsoft.

    I'm only semi-kidding.

    OK. I'm not.
  • DON'T CLICK (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 03, 2004 @02:23AM (#10418176)
    Um, that's not why you'd be modded troll.
  • Re:800lb Gorilla (Score:5, Insightful)

    by NanoGator ( 522640 ) on Sunday October 03, 2004 @02:23AM (#10418177) Homepage Journal
    "MS Engineer 2: "Wait, couldn't we not patch it and instead sell the patch together with others as a piece of software with an annual update fee?""

    I've met quite a few software engineers, and none of them would suggest that. (Nor would a PHB promote them, they'd take credit for it instead.)
  • by SwellJoe ( 100612 ) on Sunday October 03, 2004 @02:28AM (#10418196) Homepage
    OS's make their real money (except for MS's) after it is put into maintence mode.

    For me to buy this, I'm going to have to see some concrete examples. Got any links?

    Seems like Solaris has made money for Sun without being in maintenance mode. Same for MS. Same for Red Hat, Wind River, QNX, Palm, IBM (who have made more money and lost more money on operating systems than just about anybody), etc...

    I have nothing to back up my statements other than vague assertions but then you haven't presented anything other than vague assertions either, so I reckon that's fair.

  • Re:Mac OS? (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 03, 2004 @02:48AM (#10418258)
    Why not FreeBSD? OS-X already has a BSD base which is far superior to Linux in any case!
  • Re:Mac OS? (Score:2, Insightful)

    by DunbarTheInept ( 764 ) on Sunday October 03, 2004 @02:54AM (#10418278) Homepage
    But he's right about the death of MacOS if not the company that produced it. Now Apple is selling a fork of BSD with a lot of their custom application code on top of it. That they call it version 10 of MacOS is a lie. It would have been more honest to call it by a totally new name, and reset the release number to 1.0. If OSX on BSD is a release of MacOS than Wine on Linux is a release of Windows.

    There were very good reasons to predict the death of MacOS. It had a *LOT* of problems that were not fixable such that the only real fix was to start over with something new - which is exactly what Apple ended up doing. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a great product, and the magnitude of the task they did proved that people at Apple do in fact know how to do more than just make pretty interfaces that impress artists, and that they really do have people with impressive skills on staff (which surprised me, frankly). I like what they've done in their new OS. I just don't like that they did a marketing lie by calling it another release of MacOS.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 03, 2004 @02:56AM (#10418283)
    >It is a well known fact that all versions of MS-Windows
    >have backdoors built in, allowing US spy agencies to
    >heck into, do something funny, and/or sabortage the
    >"enemy system"

    Uh. It's not a fact, well-known or not. It's speculation promoted by the paranoid masses.

    Stop being a tard.
  • by solios ( 53048 ) on Sunday October 03, 2004 @03:00AM (#10418300) Homepage
    Look at the problems with powerbook displays and iBook logic boards. Apple CAN'T compete on price so they HAVE to slash QUALITY to get even CLOSE.

    I own and admin a shitload of macs- ranging from a quadra 650 to G5s. The only macs I have that have BROKEN are one of the two G4s I admin, thirteen of the fifteen iMacs I admin, and BOTH of the G5s I admin (one blew a hard drive, the other the logic board and video card).

    All my beige Macs are rock motherhumping solid. Never had a problem with any of them, ever. This candy colored aluminum crap, on the other hand, is- at BEST- consumer grade. :(
  • by ion_ ( 176174 ) on Sunday October 03, 2004 @03:02AM (#10418306) Homepage

    From the article (emphasis mine):

    As to how Microsoft is going to beat Linux according to Gates, it seems to be via its software's value, rather than the price. Bill Gates is trying to create software that needs little maintainance and little support. By doing so, he hopes to cut down the number of IT administrators needed on companies (a good admin costs overall up to $200,000 per year for a given company here in the Bay Area, for example). On the other hand, Linux rivals (e.g. Red Hat) are making money primarily by support calls and require capable administrators. Gates hopes to elliminate this need.

    Wasn't it supposed to be Linux that kills jobs [slashdot.org]?

  • Re:He's right (Score:3, Insightful)

    by DunbarTheInept ( 764 ) on Sunday October 03, 2004 @03:04AM (#10418307) Homepage
    By "unix", do you mean it the way people in the computer industry normally use the term, or do you mean the way people talk about it when they know lawyers are listening? I ask because your statement only makes sense if Linux isn't included in your term "UNIX" - and really the only people who view it that way are the old guard who don't want to let go of the old days, lawyers who have to watch out about the use of trademarked words, or people trying to spread fud about the death of unix, which is easier if your stats don't include linux.

  • by SmallFurryCreature ( 593017 ) on Sunday October 03, 2004 @03:07AM (#10418314) Journal
    Say you buy a new car, drive it out of the shop down the hill only to find that the brand new car with all the shining new features is missing steering and brakes. Then after you have crashed, your kids have been buried and you have after 2 years of legal battles and medical recovery the car company comes around and fixes the brakes. Would you then still feel you have something to complain about?

    There are two kinds of people who complain about MS. Those with somekind of hatred towards MS for whatever reason and those who of us who are tired of the constant delays, promised features that are moved to the next version and just plain shoddy code.

    It is like with IE, geezus MS how long is it going to take to get proper PNG support. Or with AMD, exactly what is taking so long to get 64bit support out? Linux and BSD got it now for ages, are opensource developers really that much better and more motivated?

    The list goes on, Longhorn? The next big thing? Well not really, features and improvements are being dropped left right and center until what is left over is still just another point upgrade and not the much needed rewrite that windows needs.

    If I need something done and you do it without being asked then I will be gratefull. If I ask you to do something and you do it then I will thank you. If I have to keep nagging you for years to do something and then finally you do it in a half-assed way then I am going to think your a fucking asshole.

    Get married and you will find that this is pretty normal human behaviour.

  • Re:Mac OS? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 03, 2004 @03:14AM (#10418336)
    Until X, the OS was a toy, inferior even to Windows.

    And from that toy sprung forth revolutions in photo, print and video graphics. The toy seems to have served many industries very well.
  • Re:Mac OS? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Fulkkari ( 603331 ) on Sunday October 03, 2004 @03:16AM (#10418338)

    Yeah, right. Just because you only buy low-end machines doesn't mean everyone do the same. Macs are pretty popular in the media industry and have a group of very loyal fans. Unless they are going down, I doubt Apple is going down either.

    I don't see any reason for Mac OS to be a GUI on top of Linux either. First of all, it would be yet an other transition. Secondly, they wouldn't win anything at it. Linux kernel doesn't have all the stuff the Darwin kernel has. I think it's ridiculous that you are suggesting that they would switch a nice kernel that they have complete control over to a third party kernel they don't have control over which doesn't even have the same features.

    Don't get me wrong. Linux is okay and I use it too, but the truth is that it's being hyped way to much. Linux is not superior in any way as some people (like you) seem to think. Soon these people will learn that there are alternatives to Linux also. It isn't just Windows or Linux.

  • by g0qi ( 577105 ) on Sunday October 03, 2004 @03:17AM (#10418345) Homepage
    It is a well known fact that all versions of MS-Windows have backdoors built in, allowing US spy agencies to heck into, do something funny, and/or sabortage the "enemy system".

    Listen to yourself, you sound like an idiot. I know Microsoft Windows code is closed-source. But here's a fundmental fact that nobody understands- it's open-source to every employee working under windows in Microsoft. That's about 14000+ employees mind you, and they belong to every nationality you can think of, even those you can't spell. Maybe their livelyhood depends on them keeping quiet, but I'm sure you are the one spreading FUD around.

    Stop scaring the people. Stop this nonsense. I'm surprised you didn't find a place for terrorists in your comment somewhere.

  • Re:He's right (Score:3, Insightful)

    by node 3 ( 115640 ) on Sunday October 03, 2004 @03:22AM (#10418356)
    The battle for desktop supremacy, however, is already won.

    There is no 'won', there is only 'winning' (or if you really want, 'won for now'). Windows might be king forever, but it's not likely at all.

    Hardware and OS's are going to continue to evolve and as time goes on, I think the specific OS you chose is going to become less and less important.

    Also, one would think UNIX refugees coming to Mac would boost the platform on the desktop. Not happening. I think people are finally settling on the fact that UNIX is a rock-solid server, but that doesn't necessarily make it a great desktop.

    Who are these 'people' you are talking about? I guarantee you that more people today use Unix as their desktop OS than have ever in the past, and that number is growing.

    Whether it's Windows or some other windowing system that wins the crown, I'm not sure, but classic UNIX is pretty much finished.

    What do you mean by 'classic UNIX'? Solaris, Linux, OS X and BSD are modern Unices. I could just as easily say 'classic Windows' is pretty much finished, and be just as correct.
  • by fitten ( 521191 ) on Sunday October 03, 2004 @03:30AM (#10418378)
    Well... here is something else that people say:
    a) Windows should provide it because it's their responsibility to be secure
    b) Windows bundling anti-spyware software puts anti-spyware folks out of business because no one will buy it because the bundled is too easy to just use it.

    So... yet another case where Microsoft will be damned if they do it and damned if they don't. I'm sure it will be feed for all the "M$" bashers no matter which way it goes.
  • My prediction (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Magickcat ( 768797 ) on Sunday October 03, 2004 @03:39AM (#10418400)
    and claims that 10 years forward Linux and Windows will be the only OSs left in the market."

    In ten years time, I predict Windows will be just a bad memory.

  • Re:Mac OS? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by killjoe ( 766577 ) on Sunday October 03, 2004 @04:03AM (#10418464)
    I once read an article about the CEO of harley davidson. In that he said "harley davidson is not a motorcyle company, it's a fashion company".

    Apple is the same way. Apple sells products that people buy because they want to be "cool".

    Now just because something is cool that does not mean it sucks. Both Harleys and Macs are great products that just also happen to be very fashionable.

    AS long as apple can define "cool" it will do just fine, whether it's selling computers or earphones does not matter all that much.
  • by mtec ( 572168 ) on Sunday October 03, 2004 @04:15AM (#10418518)
    the Mac OS will be code-named after. I mean - there's only so many cats. Next one's Tiger and we're doing about 1 per year, that's 10 more cats!!

    Lessee... Lion, um - Leopard, Cougar, Gepard... uh.. Thundercat?
    Jobs better hope for divine intervention.
  • by 0x0d0a ( 568518 ) on Sunday October 03, 2004 @04:25AM (#10418561) Journal
    There's nothing that someone who has been working at a large company worries about more than a bunch of new fresh, stubborn, idealistic faces who is willing to devote all their time to work coming in and taking over. That's true even in the existing system.

    Microsoft is a very large company. It has an established hierarchy, and people who have worked for years to reach their positions, and now have guaranteed status. They're concerned about someone walking in and taking what they've spent a long time getting and rely on.

    Linux is a loose network of some of the most devoted-to-work people, who want to stir things up and change the world, even if it results in a lot less money for them. It is a hypercompetitive meritocracy -- you can't work up any type of "status" that you can live off for years (well, maybe if you work at IBM).

    Microsoft/Linux is just another example of a neverending struggle. It's just a little more blatant than most.
  • Re:Mac OS? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by r_j_prahad ( 309298 ) <<moc.liamtoh> <ta> <daharp_j_r>> on Sunday October 03, 2004 @04:59AM (#10418676)
    *tears out another Dvorak article, wipes, and flushes it down the toilet*

    I can't believe any knowledgeable human would risk almost certain death and disfigurement by intentionally allowing a Dvorak article to come into direct physical contact with their anus. The only other person believed to have done this was a gentleman by the name of Goatse, I think. You might be able to find him with a Google search....
  • Re:Mac OS? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by FireFury03 ( 653718 ) <slashdot.nexusuk@org> on Sunday October 03, 2004 @05:03AM (#10418683) Homepage
    Additionally, a large market of open-source software would take some of the focus off x86 processors. We all know that x86 is an aging architecture, and it's a pain for the chip manufacturers to keep the backward compatability. With open source software, pretty much all the userspace software, and a large chunk of the kernel can be quickly recompiled for new architectures and you can ditch the backward compatability. This would make CPU design simpler, cheaper, and more efficient.

    Look at the PDA industry - they aren't goverened by a single big software company only supporting one architecture, if a PDA manufacturer sees a better architecture then they usually have no significant problems with dropping their current one in favor of it without worrying about hardware compatability. I'm sure that if the desktop computer industry was able to pick and choose their architectures we would be in a much better position.

    It's also worth noting that different CPU architectures suit different problems, and having the choice allows you to pick the best hardware for the job.
  • Re:Mac OS? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Graymalkin ( 13732 ) * on Sunday October 03, 2004 @05:08AM (#10418692)
    MacOS X is "Darwin plus Apple UI magic". I suppose maybe you meant to say Darwin x86 plus Apple UI magic. The point of Apple selling MacOS on Mac computers is that they get to control the whole widget. As such Apple gets to add all sorts of nice little features into the OS that they know specifically will work in x number of machines.

    Quartz Extreme is an excellent example. By the time Jaguar was released most of the current Macs would support it out of the box, by 2003 all Macs sold supported QE. Since Apple was deciding to replace their long used Rage 128s with Radeon and GeForce GPUs they were able to add a very useful feature to the OS that all shipping systems would be able to utilize. Tiger is going to utilize the advanced shader programmability of newer Radeon and GeForce GPUs in two systems called CoreImage and CoreVideo. By the time Tiger ships most if not all Macs being sold will support these features out of the box, many systems sold right now can support these features.

    Writing their OS for commodity PCs would pretty much remove that ability. When it wouldn't be guaranteed all of their customers would be able to see the new features it wouldn't be worth while to even add such features. It took Microsoft a long time to get USB and hot plugging working right in Windows. Since so few people had USB ports on their computers there was little impetus to fix USB functionality in the OS. Apple on the otherhand was replacing ADB on their systems with USB and their USB support was pretty exceptional. It's taken Microsoft a long time to get their WiFi support up to a moderately useful level because for long time no PCs were really shipping with WiFi capabilities. Apple however rolled out with extremely good WiFi support because their systems were shipping with WiFi capabilities built in.

    When a single company builds the hardware their OS is going to run on they tend to have excellent support for their hardware. Linux from any particular distribution is very hit-or-miss with hardware from particular vendors. Even HP doesn't support every bit of hardware in their laptops that have Linux as an OS option. They only support what SuSE and Red Hat support. Apple supports every piece of hardware on any Mac capable of running the OS.

    OSX for commodity PCs would not be the same OSX that runs on Macs. Without spending hundreds of millions of compatibility testing it would be exceedingly difficult for Apple to support the range of hardware that Microsoft does. As we've seen with Linux, hardware vendors do not want to write drivers for any OS but Windows and they're usually none too cooperative in releasing specs for their products.

    As such Apple would have to pick up the slack or hope they could get thousands of programmers to contribute homegrown drivers. In the first case they would have to spend lots of money to make sure a huge range of hardware worked properly and in the second they would have a slew of half-complete drivers shipping with the OS. Spending a lot of money supporting the menagerie of PC hardware would make selling OSX for PCs unprofitable in the extreme and shipping half-complete drivers and only offering partial functionality for people's hardware would kill their sales and make the whole enterprise unprofitable.

    No one is going to switch to MacOS X-x86 if their hardware isn't likely to run properly. Developers aren't going to bother supporting an OS on another architecture that only a few people use, fewer of which even want to buy their products. You don't see many commercial Linux applications for Linux/PPC or Linux/MIPS. Microsoft killed their Windows NT ports because few third parties bothered porting their applications to non-x86 archtectures even though the OS environment was the same. Vis à vis don't hold your breath waiting for Apple to release OSX for PCs.
  • Re:800lb Gorilla (Score:3, Insightful)

    by shaitand ( 626655 ) on Sunday October 03, 2004 @05:59AM (#10418817) Journal
    Actually people were complaining that the firewall was worthless and that it caused problems if enabled in exchange for absolutely no protection of any kind.

    It was enabled by default about 30% of the time already, it seemed to be a pretty random thing.

    Thanks to SP2 we have a worthless, buggy, problematic firewall which yields no benefit whatsoever, turned on all the time by default! yay.
  • Re:800lb Gorilla (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Jesrad ( 716567 ) on Sunday October 03, 2004 @07:42AM (#10419027) Journal
    Not every corporation.

    I've worked in a 120,000-employee corporation in 2002, and almost every single person I met there actually had a clue. There was no political bullshit, we had clear objectives and reasonable timelines, the only hassle was that it'd take a few days to get specific software and hardware.

    A colleague of mine worked for a subsidy of IBM last year, and told me it was the same way there, no bullshit, no slacking and no sloppiness, of course that makes only two small examples, but that's just to say such generalizations are bad overall.
  • by kantai ( 719870 ) <kantai@gmail.com> on Sunday October 03, 2004 @07:58AM (#10419066)
    Horrible analogy.
  • Re:Mac OS? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by mwa ( 26272 ) on Sunday October 03, 2004 @07:59AM (#10419068)
    "The Macintosh uses an experimental pointing device called a 'mouse.' There is no evidence that people want to use these things."
    -John C. Dvorak, SF Examiner, Feb. 1984.

    If you're trying to discredit Dvorak, this is a bad example. The mouse has become the single most non-productive enhancement to computing in history. People used to fly through applications using TAB and function keys. Although they usually still can, they don't.

    Try waiting for a bank teller, loan processer, application taker, or yout typical computer user to do anything now and it's tap, tap, tap, reach, slide, click, tap, tap, tap, reach, slide, click, tap, tap, tap, reach, slide, click, .... just to move focus to the next text box. I find myself silently screaming TAB, dammit, TAB! TAB to the button and hit ENTER!

    What's worse is I'm finding applications that no longer implement focus shifting with tab. "Web apps" are notoriusly bad. Worse yet is where most workspaces "have room" for the mouse. Mousing literally causes in pain in my neck in my workstation.

    AFAIC, there's still no evidence that people actually want to use a mouse. They simply don't know of any other way.

  • Re:800lb Gorilla (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Ender Ryan ( 79406 ) on Sunday October 03, 2004 @09:09AM (#10419227) Journal
    No, not at all. If bridge engineers were forced to call their bridges "done" when they weren't, THEN we'd have serious problems.

    As it is, serious mission critical software developed by honest companies generally works well, as do bridges. Software sold by sleazy business folk is sold before the engineers are satisfied with its quality, and it always "collapses."

    All that is to say, engineers aren't the ones releasing unfinished software that doesn't work right.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 03, 2004 @09:14AM (#10419246)
    ... and study ... because if there's anybody who knows about spyware, and has LOTS of access to it ...
  • Re:Mac OS? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Brendor ( 208073 ) <brendan...e@@@gmail...com> on Sunday October 03, 2004 @09:40AM (#10419327) Journal
    It is important to remember that before Windows 95 (some would say 2000) all of Microsofts' OSes were less than toys . . .
  • It is like with IE, geezus MS how long is it going to take to get proper PNG support

    I don't care.

    I wanna know how long it'll take before they realise that routing all the controls through the radio and having the car stop and open all the doors if a hitchiker in a blue shirt and trousers flags you down is a bad idea. And that requiring the hitchiker to be wearing a police jacket and nice shoes as well isn't much of an improvement.
  • TAB, dammit, TAB (Score:5, Insightful)

    by DrJay ( 102053 ) on Sunday October 03, 2004 @09:44AM (#10419344) Homepage
    'cause Tab is really helpful in Photoshop....
  • by hacker ( 14635 ) <hacker@gnu-designs.com> on Sunday October 03, 2004 @09:56AM (#10419386)
    "Here's some advice, Bill. It's easier to prevent the stuff from being installed then it is to clean up all the millions of variations that will be out there."

    The easiest analogy to use to explain this is "disease". It actually fits pretty well in the Windows environment, with "infections" from trojans, viruses, worms, and malware.

    There are two approaches, depending on whether you are utopian-driven (Free Software and the likes) or profit-driven (large corporate pharmaceutical companies):

    1. Do you spend your time, effort, and dollars trying to prevent disease from the start? This has the longer-lasting effect and fosters more good will in the rest of the community. Or..
    2. Do you spend your time, effort, and dollars coming up with a "pill" that will reduce the symptoms you feel after you've been infected with the disease.

    Most pharmaceutical companies choose the latter, because it keeps their revenue coming in strong, as long as the disease continues to exist and affect people.

    Most Free Software people (and other utopians) have the opposite view. Cure the problem by treating the cause, and you won't have to worry about treating the symptoms.

    I don't even have to remind you where Bill Gates and Microsoft stand on this issue. Any time they see some way to edge in a few more profit margin points, they go for it:

    • System diagnostics (edging out Norton years ago)
    • System defragmentation
    • File compression software (lost suit against Stac Electronics)
    • Firewall software
    • Anti-virus
    • Anti-spyware
    • ...and so on

    They will do whatever it takes, to keep people putting their dollars behind Microsoft products, even if it pisses off one of their own partners in the process.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 03, 2004 @10:11AM (#10419456)
    The problem you analogize is a direct result of an illegal monopoly. It is not THAT M$ drags its heels, it's that M$ CAN drag its heels and still extract a premium from the market. This is a key difference between monopoly and free market.

    It's not that they do evil, but that they are in a position to do evil without consequence as a monopoly. There is no material reward for them to play nice, because material rewards flow ONLY from maintaining the monopoly. An employee who figures out a way to make it harder to defect from M$ deserves a promotion, but an employee who figures out a way to ease the customer's experience is just eccentric, irrelevant to the actual business of making money.

    This is distinctly different from a free market where easing a customer's experience improves customer loyalty and increases the likelihood that you'll make a profit.

    The only way you can help M$ to do a better job is to bring them back into the free market by breaking their monopoly. Don't buy computers with M$ products pre-installed. Don't let your boss do so. Make sacrifices to break the monopoly and your children will inherit a better computing experience.
  • Re:Mac OS? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by kryptkpr ( 180196 ) on Sunday October 03, 2004 @10:37AM (#10419565) Homepage
    All well and good, but you forgot the #1 reason I love my mouse: the scroll wheel. The single greatest innovation in input devices.. I've seen multi-directional scroll wheels now (tilt left and right)... mmm.
  • Re:800lb Gorilla (Score:3, Insightful)

    by nege ( 263655 ) on Sunday October 03, 2004 @11:16AM (#10419790) Journal
    Simple - its not about building a better product at all. You have to see that there is no correlation between good software and successful software. MS can make more money writing bad software. It would cost them a lot of money to actually do a re-write of the system, which is really what they need at this point. Also, as a sweet little side benefit a mini industry has come about as a result of their insecure OS - the spyware / anti-spyware and virus / anti-virus mostly revolve around the Windows OS. Sure, a lot of it has to do with number of users, but you have to admit that its just plain easier to write virus code for a system that lets you execute it via the web browser!

  • Re:800lb Gorilla (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 03, 2004 @11:16AM (#10419795)
    The implication one gets from your post is that you certainly aren't one of those "with a clue" and instead are your typical corporate-brained ass-sucking lackey that's happy in their management-induced silo coma.

    One thing that's generally true about large corporations is that only about 10% of the employees are doing anything that really matter strategically and actually understand what the business is. The rest are shuffling papers around, playing political games, while maintaining old revenue streams and spouting the party line.
  • by fmaresca ( 739871 ) on Sunday October 03, 2004 @11:36AM (#10419955)
    Ok. But:
    1- 14K+ employees workin in the OS? I don't think so.
    2- 14K+ employees can read and understand the code? Again I don't think so.
    2- With only two or three hackers working in the compiler(s) is enough to make a backdoor that is not visible in the source, and present in every OS.

  • Re:800lb Gorilla (Score:3, Insightful)

    by dmaxwell ( 43234 ) on Sunday October 03, 2004 @11:41AM (#10419979)
    the only hassle was that it'd take a few days to get specific software and hardware.

    That's a hassle?!?! Sheez-Ma-neez! friend. A few days.... Wow. Where is this heaven on Earth you're working at?
  • My OS predictions (Score:4, Insightful)

    by plopez ( 54068 ) on Sunday October 03, 2004 @12:17PM (#10420225) Journal
    in 2014 we will be running Windows XP, SP7.

    Seriously, they are having problems writing Windows for AMD64. While open source OSs chug along. Will linx run on mainframes? It already does. Will windows run on mainframes? It probably will never make it. As long as there is a spectrum of hardware Windows with its sloppy architecture, coding and design will be locked into to the low end of the market. billg is out of touch, or just plain doing market speak (same thing really).
  • by FortranDragon ( 98478 ) on Sunday October 03, 2004 @12:25PM (#10420282)
    I can see the reason why they prefer you not let Windows know. It could be possible for a virus to check on this (through Windows) to see if NAV is running or not. Knowing if NAV is running would be helpful. Not knowing leaves the virus writer guessing.

  • Re:800lb Gorilla (Score:3, Insightful)

    by justins ( 80659 ) on Sunday October 03, 2004 @12:40PM (#10420378) Homepage Journal
    I worked specifically for MSN Ads, and everywhere I looked (I also talked to my friends in other departments) I found sloppy coding practices, FUD, and general CYA-motivated B.S.

    You expected the ad department to house the really competant and moral people in the organization? Besides, you're talking about the ad department of a branch of Microsoft that is essentially an afterthought. You were working with the losers.
  • Re:800lb Gorilla (Score:3, Insightful)

    by ajp ( 192328 ) on Sunday October 03, 2004 @12:53PM (#10420470)
    First problem: you worked for MSN Ads. Can you think of a more bullsh*t division at Microsoft? You talked to your friends in other departments. Where? MSN Gaming Zone? X-Box? Maybe even Microsoft Money?

    Microsoft has some solid coding divisions just like any big company. And Microsoft has some BS departments just like any big company. Is it any surprise that a division which "ships" every month is filled with sloppy coding practices, FUD and general CYA-motivated BS?

    My area of Microsoft happens to be filled with people who could code the smirk off of almost any slashdotter. I work with people who have been in the business longer than most of the MSN Ads people have been out of diapers. And they are at Microsoft primarily because they are brilliant.

    I'm sorry your experience at Microsoft was so disappointing and wish you well elsewhere but I can assure you that my time at MS has been quite intellectually fulfilling.
  • Re:800lb Gorilla (Score:2, Insightful)

    by ecko3437 ( 802386 ) <esmith@halomessenger.org> on Sunday October 03, 2004 @12:58PM (#10420498) Homepage Journal
    I have used OS X Panther. I don't find it any easier to use than Windows XP is.

    OS X comes free with any new Mac? I should hope so, with the outrageous prices they charge for hardware. It's my belief that what's holding Apple back from real mainstream use in the PC world is that it's just too expensive. When I see a decent Apple for $800 who's model series isn't four years old, I'll buy.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 03, 2004 @01:01PM (#10420521)
    Linux is a loose network of some of the most devoted-to-work people, who want to stir things up and change the world, even if it results in a lot less money for them. It is a hypercompetitive meritocracy -- you can't work up any type of "status" that you can live off for years (well, maybe if you work at IBM).

    I take you meant more than a kernel when saying 'Linux', because otherwise you're delusional, dude. Try subscribing to netdev mailing list and you will see a hierarchy in all its glory and that ..

    It has an established hierarchy, and people who have worked for years to reach their positions, and now have guaranteed status. They're concerned about someone walking in and taking what they've spent a long time getting and rely on.

  • by lubricated ( 49106 ) <michalp@g3.14mail.com minus pi> on Sunday October 03, 2004 @01:03PM (#10420537)
    very few employees actually see ALL the source code for windows.
  • by phillymjs ( 234426 ) <slashdot.stango@org> on Sunday October 03, 2004 @01:17PM (#10420621) Homepage Journal
    From the OSNews article:
    As to how Microsoft is going to beat Linux according to Gates, it seems to be via its software's value, rather than the price. Bill Gates is trying to create software that needs little maintainance and little support. By doing so, he hopes to cut down the number of IT administrators needed on companies (a good admin costs overall up to $200,000 per year for a given company here in the Bay Area, for example). On the other hand, Linux rivals (e.g. Red Hat) are making money primarily by support calls and require capable administrators. Gates hopes to elliminate this need.


    Someone has already created software that needs little maintenance and support. It's called Mac OS X (frankly, even the old Mac OS was much more reliable compared to then-current incarnations of Windows). Corporate IT departments ignored it, partly because it required the purchase of new hardware, but mostly because it makes having a large IT staff superflous-- and IT managers like the empires they build and the power they wield over an organization that depends on rickety shit like Windows that always needs an army of admins to keep it running.

    Anyone who has admin'd a mixed network of decent size will tell you that the number of Windows problems they saw dwarfed the number of Mac problems, even when the Macs were years old and the PCs were brand-new, and even when the Macs outnumbered the Windows machines. I've seen it myself. At my last job, the company went from being an all-Mac shop to running Windows everywhere but in the design studio. For a period of time when it was all-Mac, I was the sole admin of over 100 machines and my biggest problem was finding a good book to read between help calls. As soon as some 98 and NT machines landed on users' desks, we needed to add two more people to the IT staff and we could still barely keep up.

    Even if it's coming from Microsoft (and that's making the hefty assumption that they can actually produce a Windows that is low-maintenance), I have a hard time believing that these corporate IT guys will willingly buy something that will effectively lessen their power within the corporation.

    ~Philly
  • depends... (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 03, 2004 @02:54PM (#10421315)
    Try working this way with 5 or 6 apps open.

    Also everything is not text based, try doing some Cad work. You can do it with only the keyboard, but then the person standing behind you will be silently screaming MOUSE, dammit, MOUSE! MOUSE to the line and Click it!

  • by killjoe ( 766577 ) on Sunday October 03, 2004 @04:03PM (#10421781)
    Yes but millions of other people look at the open source code. It just has be caught by one person and it's over. In fact every patch gets posted on the listserves.

"When it comes to humility, I'm the greatest." -- Bullwinkle Moose

Working...