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California Drivers Can Tank Up WIth Hydrogen 462

Posted by timothy from the loading-the-dice dept.
Country_hacker writes "News site TBO.com is reporting ChevronTexaco has opened a hydrogen fuel station in Chino, California, and has plans to open five more. Servicing three (or more) Hyundai SUVs, these prototype fueling stations are a part of a five-year cost-sharing program put on by the Department of Energy. Could this be the 'egg' in the alternate fuels 'chicken or egg?' scenario?"
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California Drivers Can Tank Up WIth Hydrogen More

California Drivers Can Tank Up WIth Hydrogen

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  • Slackers (Score:5, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 20, 2005 @01:07AM (#11726870)
    We've had hydrogen refueling in Washington, DC [energy.gov] for months.
    • The DC station is used mainly for hydrogen fueled government cars.

    • Re:Slackers (Score:5, Informative)

      by pipingguy ( 566974 ) on Sunday February 20, 2005 @02:37AM (#11727226)

      I did some work (low-level, pressure and piping design stuff) on the trials in Vancouver for buses. This was at least 7 years ago. Our proposal didn't win. I don't remember DC as being a candidate, as it was Vancouver and Detroit at that time.

      I'd be interested in the refueling, is it from tube trailers or LH2 trailers?

      Liquid hydrogen always sounds scary, but this stuff is road transported every day via million dollar tankers. One of the big industrial gas manufacturers has a video (taken from a local TV station's collection) where a LH2 tanker overturned--nothing happened. Of course, safety and technical specialists from all over had to be called-in to placate the local authorities.

      When cold boxes are built (I know as I've designed a few), they are often stencilled on the exterior as CBOX1, PCB1 (pump cold box 1), et cetera. During shipping via Schnabel [sbiii.com] everyone wants to take a look and people worried/ignorant about technology have fits about possible nukular explosions.

  • SWEET (Score:3, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 20, 2005 @01:07AM (#11726872)
    Now I can buy the 6 figure Hydrogen powered BMW supercar!!!!!

  • At this stage... (Score:5, Funny)

    by Capt'n Hector ( 650760 ) on Sunday February 20, 2005 @01:08AM (#11726875)
    ...Isn't it more cost effective to grow your own hydrogen with electrolysis and a solar panel back home?

    • Re:At this stage... (Score:2, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward
      In South Korea only old people grow their own hydrogen with electrolysis and a solar panel back home.

    • Re:At this stage... (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Let's see. A typical car uses about 15KW at around 50MPH (See for example, http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2001/JaeheeJoh.shtm l [hypertextbook.com]) , and the efficiency of solar generation of hydrogen via electrolysis is about 10% (See http://gcep.stanford.edu/pdfs/hydrogen_workshop/Ma cQueen.pdf [stanford.edu]).
      Now on a good day, you can't expect more than 1KW of sunlight square meter. So with a 1 square meter solar cell, if you wanted to drive for a measely one hour, you would need your solar cell to be exposed to full sun-light for 15K

      • Re:At this stage... (Score:5, Informative)

        by diablomonic ( 754193 ) on Sunday February 20, 2005 @02:08AM (#11727127)
        FIRST: you assume 10 percent efficiency, whereas average decent cells nowadays are more like 20 with good ones around 30

        NEXT you assume only one square metre of solar cell space.... how big is your house? mine is around 8*20 metres = 160 m^2

        SO if you take my house as an example, you are looking at 160m^2 * 200w (say)per m^2 * 8 decent sunlight hours per day = about 250 KWhours per day IF i cover my entire roof with panels, plenty to power multiple cars and the house and the neighbours house etc etc.

        THE only problem with this scenario? due to a lack of widespread investment in solar technology, as opposed to oil or other fossil fuels, solar cells still cost about 5 bucks a watt, so your looking at an upfront investment of about 160 grand to cover my roof in panels. Now obviously i dont quite need that much power, but either way itll be a fair whack of money at current prices (otherwise i wouldve done it long ago). Hopefully some of the new thinner solar technologies coming out soon (within a year or two) will lower prices to a more reasonable level.

        • Re:At this stage... (Score:3, Informative)

          by stonecrest ( 845730 )
          Actually, the biggest problem with his analysis, and yours, is that you're looking at equating kW's (power) for some reason instead of energy (kWh). If a car is powered by hydrogen, its power requirement is fulfilled solely by the capacity of the fuel cell - it has nothing to do with the solar panels at all. It's a matter of how quickly you can extract the energy of the hydrogen gas per unit of time via the fuel cell. Now, if you REALLY wanted to find out how long it would take to charge your car, you hav
        • There was recently a big advance so the efficiency might be even better than what you quote =P
        • Comment removed based on user account deletion
    • ...Isn't it more cost effective to grow your own hydrogen with electrolysis and a solar panel back home?

      Perhaps, if you could actually produce enough to run a car. The amount of hydrogen you could produce with solar cells at your home would be rather insignificant.

      -matthew

  • Sure, unless you want to take yout SUV outta town. (Score:4, Insightful)

    by way2trivial ( 601132 ) on Sunday February 20, 2005 @01:09AM (#11726880) Homepage Journal
    hmm.. it's easy for me to run outta gas (Never actually done it) but how easy is it for tow-trucks to retrofit to fuel up vehichles on the road-

    Hey! no more sucking on the hose when I siphon gas!
    • They make more more money towing you to a gas station then they would just filling you up. With the cost of a tow truck factored in, it wouldnt be worth retrofitting them like that.

      On the other hand, retrofit some regular trucks to pump gas and youve got yourslef a towtruck alernative when you run out. Of course you could always just call a cab to the cas station and back, and fill up a jug instead.

  • No... (Score:2, Funny)

    by skraps ( 650379 )
    Could this be the egg?
    I think of this more as the chicken.

  • I hope this takes off (Score:5, Insightful)

    by aendeuryu ( 844048 ) on Sunday February 20, 2005 @01:11AM (#11726887)
    Something like this could be really good for Korea (Hyundai is a Korean company) if it took off. This country desperately needs to look at alternate fuel sources. Air pollution here is pretty bad. If this was commercially successful, it could mean some improvements over here.
    • But would only old people use alternate fuels?

  • The "egg" is already there (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Tau Zero ( 75868 ) on Sunday February 20, 2005 @01:15AM (#11726898) Journal
    Unfortunately, nobody's trying to hatch it. The "egg", of course, is the electrical grid, and despite the previous programs to promote electric vehicles there appears to be little support for plug-in hybrids which could "refuel" on non-petroleum energy almost anywhere for little additional trouble or expense.
    • support for plug-in hybrids which could "refuel" on non-petroleum energy
      Hydrogen vehicle fuel has never been about saving energy - it's about shifting the pollution from the street corner to big power plants that have the space for anti-pollution gear and big high stacks to put it up where it will disperse. In a lot of cases its another way to get fuel out of coal, or fuel from hydro.

      Someone is bound to put a nuclear troll in here - since a form of energy is mentioned.

  • So where can I buy a hydrogen car? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by rsborg ( 111459 ) on Sunday February 20, 2005 @01:16AM (#11726902) Homepage
    If this is the egg, then where's my chicken [google.com]?

    Besides, why Chino, of all places... why not somewhere people might actually care to buy it, like say The People's Republic of Berkeley, of SF central?

  • Demand... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by qw0ntum ( 831414 ) on Sunday February 20, 2005 @01:17AM (#11726906) Journal
    The 'egg' in this whole thing is demand. I'm totally for hydrogen powered vehicles but companies aren't going to invest the money in the infrastructure until there is a market for it. A refueling station is great, but there are only three cars that are going to be able to use it.

    What needs to be done is some kind of joint effort between auto makers and fuel companies to simultaneously release H fueling stations and H powered cars. This is a nice first step, but it's not going anywhere until there is widespread adoption.
    • Funny how GM has been helping to pass around the idea the HYBRID vehicles are more expensive than conventional vehicles and people won't pay the price. But GM is VERY VERY pro hydrogen...

      There needs to be a number of BREAK-THROUGHS in they hydrogen system before vehicles are anywhere near the current price of fuel and gas or hybrid vehicles.

      So for now, it's all about putting on a show that's being financed by the Bush administration. And it's likely to be a 25+ year show so don't get your hopes up.

      LoB

      • Re:Demand... (Score:3, Informative)

        by Planesdragon ( 210349 )
        Funny how GM has been helping to pass around the idea the HYBRID vehicles are more expensive than conventional vehicles and people won't pay the price.

        1: They are, and we don't. If we were all willing to pay the price, sometime over the last five years we'd have had more than just four hybrid cars in America.

        2: GM (yes, THAT GM) has hybrid city busses that they're trying to sell. Albany's CDTA has one that is subbing for the #11, still with all the ads from the 04 conventions. (And, really, they're a
  • Maybe the egg for the USA - but considering that countries like Germany already have started a nationwide rollout of Hydrogen fuel station, in reality the US is just starting to catch up so that they won't be left behind when everybody else is already long running on cleaner fuels.

    The egg has hatched elsewhere already!

  • To Be Viable, Need more Hydrogen Cars (Score:3, Insightful)

    by reporter ( 666905 ) on Sunday February 20, 2005 @01:18AM (#11726917) Homepage
    In order for these hydrogen stations to be viable, we need more hydrogen-powered cars. They need to be a regular fixture on the Californian highways. Right now, I see a hydrogen-powered car only about once per year.

    With any luck, these hydrogen stations will mark the beginning of the end for Islamic tyranny from the Middle East. For too long, we have essentially financed terrorist operations by paying money for gasoline. They money goes to, for example, Saudi Arabia. The Arabs then secretly funnel a bit of that money to anti-American groups in the Middle East.

    We end up financing the terrorists. Only a hydrogen-based economy will put an end to this nonsense.

    Next question is "Can we build jet fighters and bombers that run off hydrogen?"

    • GWB is pushing to have the H2 be stripped from oil. IOW, the current ppl in charge of energy will remain in charge. In addition, the money will still flow to the OPEC for some time to come.

      Now, with that said, if we have H2 cars, we could start developing alternative energy as well as using nukes to produce h2

    • The reality is, commercial quantities of H2 come from natural gas, so, it's still gonna be coming from a fossil fuel source. On the bright side, ng is very difficult to ship overseas in any kind of quantity, economically. It travels much better in pipelines. I think it'll be GREAT to see the us become dependant on ng instead of crude, they import most of that from the folks north of them, instead of the folks across the pond. And when you say something about useing electricity to create hydrogen, dont f
    • With any luck, these hydrogen stations will mark the beginning of the end for Islamic tyranny from the Middle East. For too long, we have essentially financed terrorist operations by paying money for gasoline. They money goes to, for example, Saudi Arabia. The Arabs then secretly funnel a bit of that money to anti-American groups in the Middle East.

      How odd. You see, my hope for hydrogen, and really any alternative fuel is that it will be the end of tyranny in the middle east. For too long we have essent
      • Too bad all this hydrogen stuff is smoke and mirror effects designed to delay the adoption of hybrid systems. If you check the press reports from the late 2000 period( 1st 6mon of US Toyota hybrid shipments ) to the mid 2001 timeframe, you'll find that all of Detroit had the hybrid flag held high. Then, Bush got his hands on the government and killed its almost complete hybrid programs and cranked up the funding for hydrogen. All of Detroit then held up the hydrogen flag and, lead by GM, dis'ed the hybrid b

    • Why it won't work that way (Score:4, Insightful)

      by MichaelPenne ( 605299 ) on Sunday February 20, 2005 @03:13AM (#11727329) Homepage
      hydrogen fuel takes energy to make, so we'll still buy plenty of oil to make the hydrogen. Getting the US nuclear power industry going again in a big way is the only (short term, eg decades rather than centuries) way to dramatically reduce our dependency on oil. PS for those who modded parent troll, where do YOU think most of Al Qaeda's funding for 911 came from? Hint, it was neither Iraq nor Afghanistan...

  • It's not for public use (Score:5, Informative)

    by Animats ( 122034 ) on Sunday February 20, 2005 @01:21AM (#11726922) Homepage
    Here's the Chevron/Texaco fact sheet. [chevrontexaco.com] It's just a demo site to fuel five experimental Hyundai SUVs, and it's located at a Hyundai R&D center.

    It makes its own hydrogen, though, from natural gas.

    • This program is such bullshit.

      Seriously. Five SUVs? we really want to do something serious about curbing emissions and conserving energy, today, we start by legislating higher fuel economy for existing vehicles; that will do something. Maybe in twenty years hydrogen technology will be advanced enough to be a large part of the solution to our energy and pollution woes, but currently, all spending a few bucks on hydrogen technology does is give the automotive and petroleum industries the ability to say, "loo

  • I'm waiting... (Score:3, Funny)

    by halcyon1234 ( 834388 ) <halcyon1234@hotmail.com> on Sunday February 20, 2005 @01:21AM (#11726923) Journal
    For the idiot with a gas powered car to refill at the station, and the frivilous lawsuit that will follow. Assuming they survive the explosion, of course...
  • Anyone wants to start a betting pool on how long it takes big-budget action movies to start featuring exploding hydrogen fuel tanks when car chases end in collisions?

  • What happened to ethanol? (Score:4, Informative)

    by ryanw ( 131814 ) on Sunday February 20, 2005 @01:25AM (#11726937)
    While I was in Brazil I noticed something unique. Ethanol AND Gasoline are both available at every gas station (I guess it should be called a fueling station). Here's an extremely informative website that shows some charts of ethanol.

    http://www.distill.com/World-Fuel-Ethanol-A&O-20 04 .html

    Why is the US going with Hydrogen instead of ethanol? I know that ethonal is more like "diesel fuel" so it requires the engine to heatup before starting the car in colder areas, but it seems that ethanol is already widely in use in other countries. Seems odd the US goes with hydrogen and everyone else is using ethanol.

    • Re:What happened to ethanol? (Score:5, Interesting)

      by dotwaffle ( 610149 ) <[gro.retslaw] [ta] [todhsals]> on Sunday February 20, 2005 @01:40AM (#11727011) Homepage
      But ethanol is a crappy idea - it's got a lot of drawbacks, and it essentially needs to be "grown". A much better alternative is the old Vegetable oil way of doing things - BioDiesel. Almost every filling station in Europe stocks Diesel and BioDiesel works in most if not all Diesel engines. The enormous benefit is the turnaround time, as it is a continuous, rather than a batch process (for those Chemists out there).

      Let's not go changing most of the mechanical parts if all we need to change is the fuel...

      BioDiesel, grown from Rape Seed etc, would give not only American's reason to get the farms up and running again, but also third world countries - a lot of farmers will grow this stuff and sell it very cheaply, to be refined elsewhere. BioDiesel _will_ revolutionise the European lorry (sorry, truck) market, such a shame that the USA won't be able to partake - you're far too reliant on petrol (the stuff you normally fill up with). 10 years, and you may be ready, Europe is ready NOW. Let us be your Guinea pig. Do you hear that [insert current UK Home Secretary]???

      • Re:What happened to ethanol? (Score:5, Informative)

        by wiggles ( 30088 ) on Sunday February 20, 2005 @01:48AM (#11727046)
        Sorry, but you're mistaken on America's commitment to Biodiesel. Your comment on Biodiesel giving American farms a reason to exist again is well heeded by the powers that be, who are sick of providing subsidies to farmers so they'll stop growing. For more info, go here [biodiesel.org].
      • ... only American's reason ... European lorry (sorry, truck) market, such a shame that the USA won't be able to partake - you're far too reliant on petrol (the stuff you normally fill up with). 10 years, and you may be ready, Europe is ready NOW. Let us be your Guinea pig. Do you hear that [insert current UK Home Secretary]???

        Who is this person named "American", and how much farmland does he own, anyway?

        We know all about biodesel. And it's simply not worth it for us to use our current farming methods to
      • An even better idea is Fischer-Tropsch diesel with the synthesis gas coming from gasified biomass. This uses all the energy in the plant -- cellulose, hemicellulose, lignin, everything -- not just starches or oils produced in seeds. You can even extend it by providing the steam for gasification using nuclear energy (instead of by burning some of the biomass).
    • The US Ethanol effort [ethanol.org] is a lot bigger than you imagine, especially here in the midwest, where the corn that is fermented to produce ethanol is grown. All of our gasoline fuels are now blended at 10% ethanol, and the major auto makers are making cars that will run on 85% ethanol [e85fuel.com], which is provided at various fueling stations [e85fuel.com].
  • We should also focus on Hydrogen Gas lines to residential areas. Imagine being able to heat your house with Hydrogen and use it in a fuel cell to provide electricity. You could even fill up your car at home. You could have a solar or a wind generator to covert rain water (through electrolysis) to Hydrogen. Or, instead of a compost heap you could have a "Hydrogen Pond" that uses bacteria to covert water to Hydrogen.

    • Re:Not just cars. (Score:2, Interesting)

      by Stripsurge ( 162174 )
      From TFA : The Chino center will use natural gas as a feedstock, to use the extensive natural gas infrastructure that is already in place. "Natural gas is an established, very efficient way to make hydrogen," he said.

      If you can get away without laying new pipe all the better. Since the source of the hydrogen right now is still predominantly fossil fuel based (directly or indirectly) burning hydrogen in your house doesn't really do much. Even if the energy stored in your hydrogen came from electricity you

  • Hydrogen production.. (Score:2, Insightful)

    by wilbrod ( 471600 )
    I remember watching something on TV where they were saying that producing Hydrogen requires just as much energy from different sources (like oil) as it is required to run a regular car with oil. Like at the end it would create just as much pollution.

    I just hope I'm right out of it!
    • Like at the end it would create just as much pollution.

      It would... until you realize that it's orders of magnitude easier to clean a meggawatt of power at one plant than it is to clean that same meggawatt at the hundreds of cars that would otherwise be using it.

    • Re:Hydrogen production.. (Score:5, Interesting)

      by paganizer ( 566360 ) <thegrove1@hotmail . c om> on Sunday February 20, 2005 @02:08AM (#11727125) Homepage Journal
      ...and it was produced by Standard Oil, right?
      You can make Hydrogen with a nuclear reactor. you can also make it with pretty much any steam source.
      1 cold war era nuclear bomb could potentially generate enough hydrogen to run the state of texas's autos for 2-3 months or more, if every car in texas was converted over to H.
      (Info provided to me by a Navy nuclear engineer)

  • No, this isn't very important (Score:5, Interesting)

    by pfdietz ( 33112 ) on Sunday February 20, 2005 @01:29AM (#11726958)
    This is not part of a 'chicken and egg' situation. Lack of fueling stations is not what's holding back hydrogen cars. What's holding them back is: (1) lack of range (due to the low energy density of compressed hydrogen gas, and lack of practical alternatives), (2) cost of hydrogen itself, and (3) the still very high cost of fuel cells. The last point is important, since hydrogen as a fuel makes very little sense for internal combustion engines -- since the hydrogen is made from natural gas, you might as well just burn natural gas in the vehicle, or a liquid fuel derived from gas.

    BTW, if it's oil independence you want, Fischer-Tropsch diesel fuel is already very competitive at today's oil price (it would be competitive with oil at $25/barrel.) Expect many more synfuel plants to be built if oil stays expensive.

  • My car runs on CNG (compressed natural gas)... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Harry Balls ( 799916 ) on Sunday February 20, 2005 @01:33AM (#11726974)
    ...not on hydrogen, and a little-known law allows me to drive solo on carpool (HOV) lanes in California.

    Disadvantages:
    - short range (only about 180 to 185 miles)
    - higher purchase price (about $5000 more for a new car)
    - limited number of CNG refueling stations (have to plan refueling stops ahead)
    - cannot use the car for cross-country trips due to insufficient network of CNG stations
    - There is the occasional moron who thinks I'm a carpool lane violator and turns on the high beams behind me
    - There is the occasional dumb cop who thinks I'm a carpool lane violator and pulls me over, only to let me go 2 minutes later

    I expect a hydrogen car to have similar advantages and similar disadvantages.

    • Compressed hydrogen has only a fraction of the energy density of compressed natural gas, so the range would be even worse (if burned in an internal combustion engine). Even with fuel cells, the range would be bad -- and fuel cells are still many times too expensive to be practical.

    • Here in Sydney (Score:5, Informative)

      by mpesce ( 146930 ) on Sunday February 20, 2005 @02:13AM (#11727146) Homepage
      CNG is available in the vast majority of service stations. It blew me away when I first got here - being an American, I had no idea it was in widespread use.

      Good points:
      - It's a lot cheaper than gasoline, about .40 AUD per liter vs. 1 AUD for gasoline (and Australia has some of the lower gas prices in the world)
      - A liter of CNG gets you (just about) as far as a liter of gasoline
      - It's less polluting

      Most of the Sydney-area taxis use CNG for precisely this reason. The one person I know who owns a CNG-fueled automobile for personal use has a brother-in-law who owns a taxi company, so he got a stock vehicle, and had it painted (Sydney taxis are white)... He loves it.
  • "...Could this be the 'egg' in the alternate fuels 'chicken or egg?' scenario?"

    If so, that's a damn small egg they've got. Three SUVs and 5 stations? I guess you gotta start somewhere.

  • Wait a minute... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by HunterZ ( 20035 ) on Sunday February 20, 2005 @01:42AM (#11727017) Journal
    From the article:
    The Chino center will use natural gas as a feedstock, to use the extensive natural gas infrastructure that is already in place. "Natural gas is an established, very efficient way to make hydrogen," he said.
    So, really, we'll just be trading one non-renewable natural resource (petroleum) for another (natural gas)?
  • don't the idiots in chino read popsci? URL:http://www.popsci.com/popsci/generaltech/artic le/0,20967,927469,00.html This article adequetly explains with multiple reasons why the hydrogen community is lagging behind the ICE(internal combustion)

  • Hydrogen is NOT an Energy Source ... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Ron Bennett ( 14590 ) on Sunday February 20, 2005 @01:43AM (#11727028) Homepage
    While much of the masses have been hoodwinked into believing hydrogen fuel is alternative, an important detail few realize is that hydrogen is NOT an energy source ... it's only a tranport medium.

    Where is most of that hydrogen going to come from? ... yep, "big oil"/energy producing companies, as some others have already pointed out.

    In the end, folks will pay more for more complicated vehicles which cost more to operate - and there will likely be about the same, if not more pollution than now when factoring in the production of the hydrogen fuel; producing energy is still a messy business - even solar and wind power create pollution, though admittedly much less than say coal, but I digress.

    In a nutshell, "hydrogen" is NOT a energy source, but rather only a transport medium - the way to truly reduce pollution from energy production/use is less consumption and/or more efficient energy production methods.

    Ron
    • if we switch to H2 as the energy medium, then it is easy to generate it from a large number of sources. Right now, it is to expensive to create Gasoline, except from Oil. While I have no doubt that initial H2 will come from Oil stock, later stuff can come from alternative/fission/fusion/etc.
    • Quite true, but one thing that Hydrogen will allow us to do is decide where the air pollution accumulates. If we build H2 plants in the middle of the desert where we can cause as little health risk as possible (or in areas where the CO2 emissions can be reabsorbed by vegetation), it might actually help us to be able to see our hands in front of our faces in LA again. The sooner we stop emitting all of that vehicle exhaust into the air around our major cities the better off we'll be.

  • Hydrogen: boondoggle or scam? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday February 20, 2005 @01:52AM (#11727061)
    To make things clear, hydrogen is not a source of power. It is merely a way of transmitting or storing power. Hydrogen comes from either electricity, or is extracted from natural gas. Electricity can be "green" to various degrees. Natural gas is no more "green" than other fossil fuels.

    So, if what we're talking about is a storage/transmission system, how does hydrogen add up? Very badly is the answer.

    To store any usable quantities of hydrogen requires one of the following: extremely low temperatures, extremely high pressures, or some chemical to absorb it. Low temperatures are not practical for automotive applications because it requires constant energy input to keep it cold. Extremely high pressures or absorbing it into hydrides are sort of practical but you end up with either a very large, expensive high pressure tank that holds a small amount of hydrogen, or you end up with a large, very expensive bit of palladium or whatever that's going to hold a small amount of hydrogen.

    So getting hydrogen requires a very expensive and inefficient process which (today) is derived from fossil fuels. It can only be stored in small quantities and the storage itself is extremely expensive. Oh, it also does best with fuel cell engines which also require extremely expensive catalysts (more palladium, etc).

    So in the end we come out with numbers in the neighborhood of a $150k vehicles that has a range of 150 miles and has a cost per mile of 50 cents, just for the fuel. Sounds like a winner to me!

    Compare this to electric cars. Electricity is distributed and available everywhere. There are green sources of electricity which are cost-competitive, and improving. The big expense in electric cars is the battery. Lithium is the best choice, and it is coming down in price rapidly. Range on a lithium battery cars can go over 200 miles.

    When you look at the pros and cons, the only advantage we see in the end for hydrogen is that it can be refuelled quickly. You pump it into your car and go on, just like with gasoline. But are the downsides worth it?

    I can't help but think that this whole hydrogen thing is an enormous, almost fraudulent exercise in scamming subsidies from the government to support a technology which is outrageously expensive. I would rather see natural gas refueling stations, rather than see stations that sell hydrogen extracted from natural gas.

    I also have a feeling that part of the push for hydrogen is a push to maintain huge barriers to entry in the auto manufacturing industry. It will require enormous technology resources and patent portfolios to produce a hydrogen car. With electrics, on the other hand, anyone can do it in his garage, once batteries become available. That must be scary to the industry; they haven't faced any new entrants into the market in a long time.

    Stop hydrogen!

  • fuel cells cost a lot/do we have enough platinum? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by marcmerlin ( 48598 ) * on Sunday February 20, 2005 @01:52AM (#11727063) Homepage
    After reading this page [lifeaftertheoilcrash.net] about a worst case scenario of what could happen after we run out of oil, I've come to wonder if its claims that we don't have enough platinum on earth to make fuel cells feasible for cars is true. Does anyone know either way?

    One thing is a confirmed fact though, they cost a lot to make 1 million US$, and they may come down to $100,000 in 10 years. What a bargain!

    I sure hope they can make fuel cells work, but everything I've read seems to indicate that best case, it's not a done deal quite yet.

  • Convert your car.. (Score:3, Informative)

    by Daxster ( 854610 ) on Sunday February 20, 2005 @01:57AM (#11727088) Homepage
    It's been done for only a few grand - http://unitednuclear.com/h2.htm [unitednuclear.com] Make your own solar powered hydrolysis machine in your backyard :)
  • Refoming gasoline using catalytic converters. [eurekalert.org]

    Text to the article.

    Instead of spark plugs and cylinders, environmentally friendly fuel cell engines may be under the hoods of the cars of the future. But first, scientists must find a practical and economical way to supply the hydrogen gas needed to power them. Chemical engineers at Argonne have developed and patented a compact fuel processor that "reforms" ordinary gasoline into a hydrogen-rich gas to power fuel cells. The technology was recently named one o

  • Attribution (Score:3, Informative)

    by guttentag ( 313541 ) on Sunday February 20, 2005 @03:08AM (#11727318) Journal
    The Associated Press is reporting the story, not TBO.com (see same exact story here [yahoo.com] on Yahoo news).

    See Chevron's press release here [yahoo.com].

    See U.S. Federal Gov't press release on this here [yahoo.com].

  • The Hyundai Hindenburg. (Score:3, Funny)

    by Solder Fumes ( 797270 ) on Sunday February 20, 2005 @03:11AM (#11727324)
    Sounds about right. Once we get nuclear-powered SUVs maybe we can start naming them after presidents. "And now the six-o'clock news. Interstate 90 was blocked today after a fiery accident involving the Eisenhower and the Monroe. Several smaller vehicles were also involved, including the Oklahoma, California, and . None of the drivers were injured, cushioned in their titanium-armored luxury staterooms, though several thousand local inhabitants are missing."

  • Arnold's opening ceremony, and other follies (Score:3, Funny)

    by ziegast ( 168305 ) on Sunday February 20, 2005 @08:54AM (#11728126) Homepage
    While he's wondefully wealthy and can afford to buy one just for the sake of having one, Arnold was at least showing some leadership recently when he bought a GMC Hummer "H2H" converted to run on hydrogen rather than fuel. Just look for "Hydrogen Hummer Governor Arnold" at news.google.com or your favorite news outlet. Here's one article [motortrend.com].

    The gas station to fill his ride is at LAX airport. How that would help the Governator working in Sacramento is beyond me. Who wants to go to LAX every time you need to fill up? and how many miles can a big beefy Hummer go before it needs a refill? The Chino multi-station pilot test at least seems more practical.

    Speaking of practical, just how practical is hydrogen going to be, anyway? Unless there is a huge improvement in the abundance of energy needed to seperate hydrogen atoms from water (or methane or other sources), other methods like bio-diesel or just plain electric are going to be more pratical ways to reduce US dependence on oil. If we somehow are able to implement pebble-nuke plants like the Chinese are doing [techcentralstation.com], hydrogen processing might become more cost-effective.

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