What Mac OS X Could Learn From Windows 403
An anonymous reader writes "It is almost unheard of to see something written about what OS X could learn from Windows but this details some good examples. And yes, it includes the right-click mouse." I find about half the suggestions compelling enough to be worth griping over, and the other half off-base, but YMMV.
Control keys? (Score:5, Insightful)
Apple - and the zealotry - need to concede that this battle is lost.
Huh? So Apple are meant to disrupt the muscle memory of practically every Apple user, by dropping a scheme that they have stuck to for decades, to make it slightly easier for a minority of people who use two different systems on a regular basis?
What complete and utter nonsense. What next? Drop the dock in favour of a taskbar that works like Windows... because "this battle is lost"? After all, if it doesn't work like Windows, then it must be a disaster!
Two Button Mouse (Score:5, Insightful)
How 'bout resizing windows from all corners (Score:4, Insightful)
FYI to non Mac'ers, Mac OSX only allows you to re-size windows at the top left corner of the window .
Ummm, why do you get to decide this? (Score:3, Insightful)
1) Compatible control keys. Switching between Mac and Windows this drives me nuts. I have to consciously think "command-C or control-C?" It shouldn't have to be that way. And if you're running RDC or VPC and copying and pasting between OS X and Windows!! Sheesh!
The problem isn't the labeling, it's the location of the keys used. I had to use a Windows PC today and I kept pressing Alt-C to copy. This is why it's a problem. If it was simply a matter of labeling, no worries, mate. Apple - and the zealotry - need to concede that this battle is lost.
Implementing this would rock many people's boats, so if Apple did make this change it'd have some serious domino affect on other keystrokes and applications that use them, but maybe it could be done with the switch to Intel, just to ease the pain slightly.
Umm, how exactly did Apple lose? Was there a national convention that decided that the main command issuing modifier key should be hit by the pinky? I much prefer to move my thumb from the space bar and hit command than move my pinky from the a to hit control. Why exactly do we need to conceed here? Because you think you you're right Mr. Author?
OSX can learn from Windows. (Score:4, Insightful)
Multi-button mouse (Score:5, Insightful)
The whole point of the one button mouse is to make it easy to use for beginners, and to prevent developers being lazy when designing programs. And using expose with a single mouse button only needs for the screen corners to be set up to trigger the actions.
While some of the points seem relevant, others are completely off the mark.
Re:How 'bout resizing windows from all corners (Score:4, Insightful)
I'd say... (Score:5, Insightful)
Save button on toolbars: This is hardly an OS X issue. Lots of Mac apps have them. I can't remember if iApps do or don't, but there's no big deal there.
Only showing relevant file types: The current method is classic Steve. You show all files because the user knows they exist and you don't want to confuse him. Advantages both ways.
Sort directories to the top: If that's a problem, you probably have your tree setup poorly. Again, one can argue this both ways.
NOOOOO!!!!!!!! (Score:5, Insightful)
REQUIRE just one button, SUPPORT multiple is the Mac way. and it's also the best way. anyone who doesn't understand this is ignorant.
A few gripes about the article... (Score:5, Insightful)
2. Save buttons on toolbars are up to the developers. And in all honesty, I think a lot more people use keyboard commands to save, instead of clicking on a tiny little button in a toolbar that not even every app has. This definitely is not an OS specific thing...they're available if you need it, but nobody's forcing anyone to use it..
3. My Logitech MX518 works on my Macs. So does my MX900 bluetooth mouse. And all of the other multi-button mice I've ever bothered to connect via USB or bluetooth. end of argument, unless you're trying to say that Apple should ship multi-button mice with their computers. They shouldn't. There's almost nothing worth having a multi-button mouse for that you can't do with a one button mouse, or with the keyboard (except when it comes to gaming and the likes). Now, with the coming Intel Macs, maybe they should. But that's only assuming the person buying the machine will install another OS on it as well.
4. Why on earth do you need to see only the relevant file types? Sometimes OS X will grey out the ones that aren't relevant or not selectable, but what good is it going to do? Afraid of accidentally naming your file a name that already exists?!
5. Useless. In all honesty, Spotlight/Quicksilver/Launchbar sort of get rid of the need for that, like the article mentioned.
6. Why on earth is this supposed to be a Windows thing? It's not. It's in OS X. Blame the developer(s) if it's lacking in the software you're using and complaining about.
Frankly it sounds like the author is just an idiot, but that's my two cents. All of his points are almost completely irrelevant or not applicable.
On top of that, might I add that Microsoft and Apple have copied each other too many times to count, and it's not necessarily good.
Nit-Picking (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Ummm, why do you get to decide this? (Score:5, Insightful)
Pretty much there already and caveats. (Score:3, Insightful)
2. Idiotic. Command S is not easy enough? Tool bars are generally evidence of poor design. You memorize the shortcut keys for your frequent options. Yes, there can be designs where there are too many keys to remember but SAVE? Oh command S people.
3. control click anyone? why a multi button mouse when control click works just as well and doesn't confuse new users?
4. Interesting, I'll agree.
5. This is horrible. Totally completely stupid and horrible. You sort by name and just TYPE the name of your folder and then press command down arrow to open it. Why in hell do people want an alphabetical sort to separate any files from folders? How do you know when the folders stop and the files start? What if you have more than one screen of folders? Folders at the top is something I really really think is pretty damn stupid as it breaks the metaphor of alphabetical sorting. Oh, if you want it, PathFinder, a finder replacement, has it
6. Um, ok. Software authors heed to increase their budget to have a copywriter write the context sensetive help.
And on : - Existing files selectable in Save dialog
This sucks. I want to click in the file list to set my focus there so i can command up or command down arrow into and out of folders. But now, when I click to set focus, if I hit a file name, I mistakenly replace my current file's filename with that of another file and if I press save, I run the risk of overwriting it and deleting that other file. Super lame.
Re:Ummm, why do you get to decide this? (Score:3, Insightful)
Well see that's where the author went wrong, too. The keyboard shortcuts using the control key on windows are often analogous to their counterparts on Mac OS circa 1984 which used the command key.
Re:Two Button Mouse (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:A few gripes about the article... (Score:5, Insightful)
Thank you. Yours was the reply I was going to have to write otherwise. I'd just like to add :
1) Frustrating your installed base for "possible" future customers who've shown an extreme preference for your competition isn't always a good idea. Having a Preference to 'Use Windows-compatable control/command key mapping' or something might have more merit, but still isn't a very UI-consistient idea. The window menus say 'command'. It's not really just a labeling/placement issue, is it?
2) Mail.app, just to mention one example actually provided by Apple, has a Save As Draft button on the New Message toolbar. Not an OS issue.
3) Bringing up the single-button mouse at this point makes you just sound stupid at best, or trolling at worst, to be honest. Your point is the multi-button-mouse should be standard and the single-button one goes away ? Look back to my first point. My 3-year-old son and 70-year-old mother-in-law both prefer the one-button mouse. The Mac mini comes with no mouse. Buy the mouse you like.
4) You can always sort the results by file type, can't you? That way the ones you want to see are grouped together? And just in case you actually want to select or know about a file that's incorrectly typed ( easy to happen now with those damn windows .foo file endings ), it's actually a nice feature to have them all shown. Also, filtering those file dialog results in anything other than Apple-supplied apps is dead-easy for a Cocoa developer, so write to your favorite app's project manager if you want that feature in it. It'll take maybe a day's worth of effort to implement and test. Seriously.
5) again, sort by file Type and you get the folders grouped together. How is this a serious complaint ? When you ask for the results to be sorted by file name, you don't want the results sorted by file name if the file is a folder? What the hell is that? What if I have a group of related files and folders all starting with projectx and want to easily grab them from a folder filled with files and folders all starting projecty ? Even without Spotlight, this is a debateable feature in any OS. Windows should change in this case, I say...
6) I could easily find several places in the windows OS where control panels and the like for OS functions lack useful context-sensitive help. Any program always needs more of that kind of thing, though, and that's because it's not a critical feature.
In the final analysis, there are probably more important things that OS X could swipe from Windows. Like being able to natively run any Windows program, especially, say, full-screen apps like oh, I don't know, video games. I know that sounds like a joke, but really, that's always been the Windows users biggest excuse for not considering anything else, and frankly, we'll see what we get from the Mac Intel in that regard... what would the reason for buying Windows over OS X be if you could run full-performance Windows binary apps on either?
Re:Control keys? (Score:5, Insightful)
Control keys are valid ASCII characters. Overriding their functionality so they are captured at the GUI level and thus removing the ability to freely use them as characters would be a significant step in the wrong direction.
Re:Two simple things that drive me batty (Score:4, Insightful)
The two UIs are designed to be used differently. The Mac interface is designed to have a lot of windows visible at the same time. Windows is designed to have one fullscreen window (or two tiled windows)visible at a time. A sibling comment says it perfectly: "Though at least windoes makes it easier to use one window per screen."
I understand your frustration -- I'm accustomed to the Mac method and I find Windows (especially the giant opaque super-windows in Windows Office) infuriating.
Re:Ummm, why do you get to decide this? (Score:2, Insightful)
OK. So we should swap keys around to be more like Windows because of the processor has a different brand name on it? I don't think so.
Another knock-on effect that makes Windows harder (Score:4, Insightful)
What MS should have done is to specify that an extended keyboard with a command key would be necessary to access keyboard shortcuts in Windows, and within 6 months or a year, those keyboards would have been the standard. Instead they imposed a workaround that had no upsides except compatibility with the existing PC keyboard, and many downsides that are simply accepted by the 'dozers today as "the way it is".
Re:NOOOOO!!!!!!!! (Score:4, Insightful)
Look at any study with "new" computer users and you will see that most of them have a lot of trouble adjusting to a "right click". Have you ever worked in technical support? I have and I can tell you that I had to explain what "right click" meant many times to users.
There is never a "need" for a context menus. If you "need" a context menus, then you have made a bad interface.
If you intended on creating desktop applications, do us all a favour and work as a web developer for a few years before you touch any desktop applications. You will learn how to develop simple and "usable" interfaces that way.
I speak and someone who was an ecommerce developer for a number of years and now works on desktop applications. Web development taught me how to design interfaces from a "user's" perspective.
Re:NOOOOO!!!!!!!! (Score:2, Insightful)
What you're advocating is precisely what Apple is trying to get away from.
OS X can definetely learn from Windows, but not in this respect. At least in my opinion.
Tourist visits another country (Score:5, Insightful)
If I travel to another country, people there have their way of doing things. They have their own culture. Sure things may seem difficult to the foreigner, but to the people living there everything makes sense and for them it is obvious. The only way to deal with it is to learn about that culture and accept things for what they are. Of course that doesn't mean that they are immune to learning different ways of doing things.
Switching to a different OS is much the same thing. Not everything is going to make sense, but some things might. Over time you learn the way things work there and accept things for what they are, better or worse.
Re:Nonsense (Score:2, Insightful)
Look at any study with "new" computer users and you will see that most of them have a lot of trouble adjusting to a "right click".
Now look at any study of what percentage of computer users these days are "new" users. Hint: 1984 was more than 20 years ago and there have been some MAJOR changes in computer user demographics since then. In the US, the average computer user is NOT still using his first computer, and his first computer more likely than not, had a two button mouse.
Granted, in markets such as India or China, most users are now new users, but Macs are nowhere to be found in those markets, and Macs are still using that canard about new users to justify their design in their major markets where only a small fraction of users are new to using a computer mouse.
I supervise on a large educational helpdesk in Australia and from my experience many if not most teachers and school administrative staff would still count as "new" users, which is not surprising given that our average teacher's age is 52 and they therefore didn't grow up with computers.
If you limit "new" users to kids starting out, then this probably is true but many new users are older people who seem to have trouble remembering where to left click and where to right click. And when right clicking on a file/folder can mean deleting that item, it can be pretty messy. So should we recognise that not all people are quick to pick things up and therefore cater for the lowest common denominator or should we just stop these people using computers? Surely it's easier for powerusers to adapt than it is for newbies.
Re:Multi Button Mouse (Score:5, Insightful)
The real clincher though is when you come to use a touch-screen. If you've used Windows on a touchscreen then you will know that you spend an enormous amount of time hitting the button that makes your next click a right click (and some things you can't do at all, because they require right-drag). If you have used a Mac on a touch-screen, you will know that you don't. The reason for this is that Mac software is all designed on the understanding that a user may not have a second button. If Apple release a TabletMac, then they will have a wealth of software that is already highly usable with it.
Re:Another knock-on effect that makes Windows hard (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Control keys? (Score:2, Insightful)
When I'm using shortcuts on a Windows machine, I hate it that I need to fork my hand wide open, holding the Ctrl key down with my pinky and reaching halfway across the keyboard like I'm playing really open piano chords.
To make matters worse, they put that fucking useless Windows key right between the Ctrl and Alt, where it's easy to accidentally hit while spanning my hand to use Ctrl-key shortcuts, popping up the Start menu and taking the keyboard & mouse focus off my application.
Idiots.
Re:Delete from Save/Open Dialog (Score:1, Insightful)
Why? Do your file management in the Finder, that's what it's there for. The function of the Open/Save dialogs is to OPEN or SAVE files, PERIOD.
This is why Windows is such a mess IMHO-- you have five retarded ways to do everything, instead of one way that is logical.
Re:Nonsense (Score:4, Insightful)
There is nothing wrong with offering a context menus as an alternative as long as you provide easy access to those functions from the main menu.
Sometimes it makes more usabiity sense to use context sensitive tool palettes (inspectors) to expose functionality because it is readily visible on screen as opposed to context menus which are hidden until you right click.
Take a look a the success of the iPod as a "consumer" device. Part of the reason why it is successful is because it is designed to be as simple as possible and usable by the "average" consumer. It is not a "geek" toy nor does it include a lot of superfluous/niche functionality.
There are plenty of context menus through out OS X and OS X apps. What you will notice is that all functionality in those context menus are also readily available through other means. What you will not see is superfluous right click menus, only menus where it makes sense within the context of the object you are over top or have selected.
I think it is horrible design to rely on context menus for functionality and it is also horrible to include core functionality of an application's main menus within a context menus. It should only contain items relevent to the object you are interacting with.
OS X and OS X apps largely respect that ideal. If you have a problem with that, tough.
Re:Control keys? (Score:2, Insightful)
I think even you are giving the author too much slack.
I spend approximately 12 hours a day using computers, and it's almost 50/50 Windows/Mac. Often I'll have them running side-by-side, and switch back and forth every couple of minutes or so. Furthermore, I regularly use Apple USB keyboards with PCs, 2-button Logitech scroll mice on Macs, trakpads on PowerBooks and Windows laptops, and just about every other possible configuration except Apple 1-button mice on PCs.
I use a lot of keyboard shortcuts, so how much trouble do I have remembering whether I'm supposed to be using Ctrl-C or Cmd-C, etc.? None whatsoever. If I'm using a Windows interface I use Windows conventions, and if I'm using an OS X interface I use Macintosh conventions. I don't consider myself to be particularly talented in this regard, and yet almost never need to give it any thought. My fingers just do it. It's as second nature as touch-typing.
As an added bonus, when from time to time I find myself in front of a Linux or non-Apple UNIX CLI, I'm already familiar with the keyboard shortcuts because they're the same as an OS X terminal window.
Remote Desktop , please! (Score:2, Insightful)
Yes the apologists will say:
- Use SSH
- Use VNC with compression
- or from a technology standpoint, that it isn't doable with the inherent bitmapping in Quartz Extreme.
A fast secure remote desktop protocol for use with both servers and clients, is definitely one point that Apple's OS X sorely has missed.