Forgot your password?
typodupeerror
Software Microsoft Media Media (Apple) Operating Systems Windows

Vista - iPod Killer? 557

Posted by Zonk
from the stranger-and-stranger dept.
JMB wrote us with a dire warning, as reported by the San Jose Mercury News. Apple is cautioning its Windows-using iTunes customers to steer clear of Vista until the next iTunes update. The reason for this is a bit puzzling. Apparently, if you try to 'safely remove' your iPod from a Vista-installed PC, there's a chance you may corrupt the little music player. They also claim that songs may not play, and contacts may not sync with the device. Apple went so far as to release a detailed support document on the subject, which assures users that a new Vista-compatible version of the software will be available in a few weeks. Is this just some very creative FUD? If it is not who do you think is 'at fault' here, Microsoft or Apple?
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

Vista - iPod Killer?

Comments Filter:
  • by wardk (3037) on Saturday February 03, 2007 @03:12PM (#17875114) Journal
    for not being able to predict what parts Microsoft would focus on breaking
    • by malfunct (120790) * on Saturday February 03, 2007 @04:12PM (#17875682) Homepage
      Its worse than that. There has been a fairly stable api in vista for the last 6 months and even before that there were little changes for the last year. Apple just decided not to fix thier software for whatever reason and now they are trying to make Vista look bad instead of taking the blame for being slow to support windows users.
      • by Rich0 (548339) on Saturday February 03, 2007 @04:31PM (#17875848) Homepage
        Of course, if they just implemented the iPod as a USB mass storage device, there would probably not be any issues at all. They could still have a fancy front-end that loads files onto it.

        It drives me nuts when you need to use fancy software to download/upload from your camera/mp3-player/etc. It isn't like there aren't standards out there that would work perfectly well...
        • Re:It's apples fault (Score:5, Informative)

          by irc.goatse.cx troll (593289) on Saturday February 03, 2007 @04:42PM (#17875904) Journal
          You can access it as a usb mass storage device. Either after ticking a setting in itunes, or when plugging it in I believe you hold the menu and play/pause buttons at the same time.

          You're generally better off letting itunes handle it though, as it does a much better job. Now if only I liked itunes enough to use it for anything other than an interface to my ipod.. (or foo_dop would become stable enough and featurefilled enough to trust it with my ipod)
          • Re:It's apples fault (Score:4, Informative)

            by Rich0 (548339) on Saturday February 03, 2007 @11:16PM (#17878368) Homepage
            You're generally better off letting itunes handle it though, as it does a much better job.

            If only that were true. Go ahead and let me know how to use itunes to handle this:

            I have a collection of files in ogg format. I want to download them to my iPod. I realize that an ogg->aac conversion will lose some quality, but we can bump up the bitrate a little to compensate. Tell me how to do that with itunes.

            I couldn't find any way to do it. I ended up batch-converting the files on my linux box, and then uploading them. Then when I deleted all the aac files that I no longer needed itunes was helpful enough to go ahead and delete them off the ipod on the next sync. Apparently I'd need to keep a whole set of aac junk files lying around just to keep itunes happy even though I'd never listen to them on a PC.

            And yes, I did find a plugin that plays ogg in itunes - pity that it won't do a conversion when uploading to an ipod.

            Suffice it to say the ipod was returned. It was actually a friend's device and not mine - I had advised against it all along figuring it would be a pain to get working...

            I love my iAudio G3 - just copy files and it works. If for whatever reason I have to convert a file to upload it I don't need to keep the converted file on my hard drive. And I don't need any fancy software - works on any OS out there that handles USB drives...
            • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

              by stevencbrown (238995)
              does anyone else just stop reading whenever there is a comment about how iTunes/etc sucks, and they hit the word "ogg"?
              • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

                by Rich0 (548339)
                Why should they? I didn't ask for the iPod to play ogg files - I asked for its software, running on a powerful desktop computer, to be able to figure out how to convert it so that I could play the corresponding aac on the ipod. There is no reason this shouldn't be possible without major hassles.

                Gosh - I'd have been happy if it just didn't delete all my files whenever I synced it after deleting the originals on my hard drive. I can easily bulk-convert ogg to aac/lossless/whatever - but I'd rather not keep
        • Re:It's apples fault (Score:5, Informative)

          by sqrt(2) (786011) on Saturday February 03, 2007 @05:36PM (#17876350) Journal
          It might not be much of an improvement for you, but if you can stand to use Winamp5 (or use it already anyway) there is a plugin that allows it to sync with the iPod. It works a lot better and has more features than iTunes, including the ability to take songs off an iPod. Still short of true drag and drop compatibility, but that's all Apples doing trying to tie iTunes and the iPod together (thus getting more market penetration for their ITMS).

          http://www.mlipod.com/
          • Re:It's apples fault (Score:5, Informative)

            by belly917 (928006) on Saturday February 03, 2007 @06:45PM (#17876900)
            "but if you can stand to use Winamp5"

            I can't stand to use anything but Winamp! Well, that's not true, but I won't go anywhere near the limited functionality that is iTunes. No ogg vorbis support out of the box, etc.

            there is a plugin that allows it to sync with the iPod

            The newest versions of winamp5 include an updated version of this plug-in by default.

            Another great reason to use winamp5 with your ipod is that it'll transcode songs that the ipod firmware can't handle for you. (yes I know it's bad.. but I don't notice the difference when I'm jogging) So all those wma's & ogg vorbis files will at least be playable on your yet again limiting apple ipod.

            if you really wanted to make your ipod useful, you should check out rockbox.org
      • by GarfBond (565331) on Saturday February 03, 2007 @05:03PM (#17876078)
        How are they making Windows look bad? It's a very cut and dry support document. "You have an iPod or iTunes. You might have Windows Vista. Here's what doesn't work right now and here's what you should do. We will fix these things fully in the near term."
        • by dan828 (753380) on Saturday February 03, 2007 @05:32PM (#17876322)
          Maybe they aren't trying to make windows look bad, but it seems odd that a company like Apple, that had access to all of the betas and should have had the RTM for the last three months, didn't have this fixed prior to product launch. New PCs are shipping with Vista now, so a not unsizable chunk of people are going to run in to this problem.
          • Re:It's apples fault (Score:4, Interesting)

            by jbrader (697703) <stillnotpynchon@gmail.com> on Saturday February 03, 2007 @06:04PM (#17876576)
            Microsoft had more money than many of the worlds countries combined and a gigantic army of developers and it still took them the better part of a decade to ship Vista. Sometimes software can be tough.
          • by admactanium (670209) on Saturday February 03, 2007 @08:56PM (#17877692) Homepage
            Maybe they aren't trying to make windows look bad, but it seems odd that a company like Apple, that had access to all of the betas and should have had the RTM for the last three months, didn't have this fixed prior to product launch. New PCs are shipping with Vista now, so a not unsizable chunk of people are going to run in to this problem.
            you're joking right? microsoft's own zune player and software didn't even work with vista until the final retail release version! it hardly seems like everything was completely sorted out early on.
      • by 4iedBandit (133211) on Saturday February 03, 2007 @05:10PM (#17876156) Homepage

        There has been a fairly stable api in vista for the last 6 months and even before that there were little changes for the last year. Apple just decided not to fix thier software for whatever reason and now they are trying to make Vista look bad instead of taking the blame for being slow to support windows users.

        And Microsoft has never purposefully designed their OS to interfere with another competitors product.

        • by Dahamma (304068) on Saturday February 03, 2007 @05:53PM (#17876482)
          And Microsoft has never purposefully designed their OS to interfere with another competitors product.

          Who cares? Does that mean Apple needs to sink to their level? The vast majority of iPod owners use it on Windows, so it really doesn't seem to be best for the customer (as Apple is always claiming to be their motivation) not to support Vista properly. I'm a bit disappointed by Apple's obvious attempt to make Vista look bad on release at the expense of their customers.
          • ...Apple's obvious attempt to make Vista look bad...
            That would seem to be redundant effort as Microsoft has already bundled that feature with the OS; it's called "downsampling." Ooooh! I smell a new anti-trust suit.
      • by Overly Critical Guy (663429) on Saturday February 03, 2007 @06:07PM (#17876598)
        How conveniently people forget that Microsoft's own Zune player app wasn't Vista compatible either. If Microsoft couldn't support their own OS with these "stable apis" of the last six months that you refer to, how can you expect Apple to?
        • by malfunct (120790) * on Saturday February 03, 2007 @06:15PM (#17876664) Homepage
          Zune client version 1.2 was fully compatible with Vista and released near the beginning of January.
          • by Space cowboy (13680) * on Saturday February 03, 2007 @06:36PM (#17876828) Journal
            Which, correct me if I'm wrong, was not 6 months ago. And (presumed) changes to API's (otherwise it would have worked) only 4 weeks ago isn't a sign of a "stable API".

            So, when a third-party company finally gets the latest API info, specs out the required changes and their implications, codes it up, runs it through QA, gets sign-off from all the parties (HI, VI, Engineering, Management, X-functional team managers), and gets it out in a couple of months, it's not so bad, really. Oh wait, we're bashing Apple today. BAD APPLE.

            Simon.
            • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

              by malfunct (120790) *
              My point was that if the software had be started at the same time time as the zune software it could have released in January as well and been ready for vista. Instead Apple waits until release to send out a bulliten saying how awful Vista is for thier hardware. I agree it takes a while for new software to get written but you don't start writing the fixes the day the OS releases to the mass market when you could have started 6 months before and been completely ready for it.
    • Re:End User's Fault (Score:5, Informative)

      by bluetigerbc (911321) on Saturday February 03, 2007 @06:10PM (#17876628)
      because http://rockbox.org/ [rockbox.org] has software to put in new firmware avoiding this big mess. I agree that it should just be usb mass storage device. This site can make that happen.

      someone mod this up for "the peoples". I've hunted for something other then Apple's filename switching firmware for a while now. Easy drag and drop songs and delete/rename them from the ipod. There are even themes to make the ipod look like winamp or other skins from users.

      rock box is like firefox for yer Ipod. Open code wins again!
    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by pubwvj (1045960)
      No, no, no. You've got it all backwards. Vista isn't an iPod killer. The iPod is a Vista killer. Now 50,000,000 Windows users won't upgrade to Vista for fear of losing their tunes. Apple slipped in the knife quietly. Now they're twisting it.
  • Who to blame? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by falsified (638041) on Saturday February 03, 2007 @03:13PM (#17875120)
    Hell, I don't know. How are we supposed to know that? And more to the point, does anyone out there ever press that "safely remove hardware" thing anyway? Bunch of dorks.
    • Re:Who to blame? (Score:5, Informative)

      by Technician (215283) on Saturday February 03, 2007 @03:36PM (#17875364)
      and customers could corrupt their iPod unless they eject it from Windows using iTunes.

      It's like ejecting a floppy on a Mac or *NIX except there is another layer of software that has to properly write to the device to close it. Windows has no idea that iTunes has not finished and using Windows to eject hardware will close the device without all the updates from iTunes. I suprised that is any diffrent from XP or 2K.

      does anyone out there ever press that "safely remove hardware" thing anyway?

      You may get by most of the time if you don't have any applications such as a file browser open and was writing files that might be cached and not written. For example having a bunch of MP3's on a flash drive and unplugging it is not a problem most of the time. If you were writing new files and updating some files, such as a spreadsheet, may corrupt it if you don't close the application and use the eject option. Cached data might not all get written.

      I don't understand why this is just an issue with iTunes and Vista. Maybe iTunes hooks into Safely Remove Hardware, and closes out writes before letting Windows confirm it's safe to remove the device. This is probably what's broken in Vista.
    • Re:Who to blame? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by BeerCat (685972) on Saturday February 03, 2007 @03:51PM (#17875522) Homepage
      Maybe, just maybe, it's a bit of both - MS would love to kill the iPod, while Apple would love to undermine Vista enough for people to consider switching (and let them use their existing XP under Boot Camp).

      So, I think we are seeing a bit of brinksmanship from both sides - the one who admits first that their product is the one at fault loses mindshare.
  • by alshithead (981606) * on Saturday February 03, 2007 @03:13PM (#17875124)
    At least they must have some clue about fixes for the issues. It looks like they have a pretty good idea of where Vista breaks iTunes

    Now, let me climb into my tinfoil bunker...

    The evil that is Microsoft has intentionally released Vista just to break iTunes and promote their own music player!

  • Suits suits suits. (Score:5, Interesting)

    by GodInHell (258915) * on Saturday February 03, 2007 @03:16PM (#17875142) Homepage
    Suits are to blame either way.. for thinking that their job was to tie a software app to one OS or the other.

    If it turns out that MS is keeping true to form from past abuses - using its control over the OS to submerge and destroy the oposition (see netscape) then Apple should probably start digging for evidence to back a differnet kind of suit right now. This kind of deliberate destruction of property that just happens to be manufactured by the opposition company (OS v Os, and now MP3 player v. MP3 player) is text-book anti-trust case material.

    -GiH
  • oh no (Score:3, Funny)

    by macadamia_harold (947445) on Saturday February 03, 2007 @03:16PM (#17875148) Homepage
    Apparently, if you try to 'safely remove' your iPod from a Vista-installed PC, there's a chance you may corrupt the little music player.

    I shudder to think what would happen if you unsafely remove it. Especially from a Sony laptop.
  • I dunno.. (Score:5, Funny)

    by benc (573) <(ben.slashdot.su ... omlyhumming.com)> on Saturday February 03, 2007 @03:17PM (#17875156) Journal
    Look, I think Microsoft's products emanate directly from Satan's butthole, just like the rest of you. I also secretly hump the boxes from which my purchased Apple products emerge. However, doesn't it seem like Apple probably had more than enough time to get this working on the beta versions, assuming this isn't some new, last-second bug?

    That said, the Zune doesn't even work on Vista yet, as another commenter already pointed out.... Still, I'm inclined to blame Apple on this one.
  • by Ace905 (163071) on Saturday February 03, 2007 @03:26PM (#17875256) Homepage
    How can you even ask who's fault it is? Man, if the story-authors on slashdot spent like 10% less time blindly bashing Microsoft, the 80% of the time they spend accurately bashing Microsoft would actually be taken seriously. To say, "Who's fault do you think it is" doesn't imply Apple or Microsoft is at fault - but it opens up a debate that can't possibly be intelligently executed.

    There's no evidence of anything ; we don't even know what happened.

    You might as well sprinkle M&M's all over a busy freeway beside a Richard Simmons retreat. People are going to rush into this one and end up looking pretty stupid.

    ---
    Don't even get me started on looking stupid [douginadress.com].
  • by edwardpickman (965122) on Saturday February 03, 2007 @03:26PM (#17875272)
    "Oopsy, my bad. I just don't know how that could have happened since our Zune player works perfectly. I'm sure we can get the issue resolved by service pack 4."
  • by Kraegar (565221) on Saturday February 03, 2007 @03:28PM (#17875284)
    I've been running Vista (Business) for well over a month now, and use iTunes daily with my 4gb ipod nano. I haven't noticed any issues. Music purchased from ITMS plays fine, and I haven't (yet) corrupted my nano. So this news of it not working is a bit of a surprise to me.
  • by DinZy (513280) on Saturday February 03, 2007 @03:38PM (#17875386)
    Vista has been in its finished form for months. There is no excuse for Apple not having iTunes ready. They are clearly just being coy here so they can maybe sell a few systems or something. On a side note. I have been using XP x64 since the start of last year. Apple released a version of quicktime that was broken on that system and since they bundled it with iTunes it actually broke that as well and they removed any link to the older working version. I updated to that and lost the ability to use my iPod and any software that used quicktime. It was yet another case of Apple failing to test their products thoroughly.
  • by SierraPete (834755) on Saturday February 03, 2007 @03:38PM (#17875388)
    Without accusing the crowd of being anything less than an ethical [insert gagging sounds here], this might be history repeating itself for competitive gain. With the Windows 95 upgrade came the "feature" that included the disabling of AOL software. Didn't M$ introduce M$N Network with Windows 95? So didn't M$ introduce the Zune this past Christmas season? Maybe I'm getting cynical in my old age, but given the track history of M$ (to include the now infamous Halloween documents which were recently acknowledged as authentic in court), a sabotaging of the iPod is not outside the realm of possible.
  • Safari and hotmail (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Scrameustache (459504) on Saturday February 03, 2007 @03:39PM (#17875394) Homepage Journal
    When Safari came out, I downloaded version 1.0 the very first day, and used it to go to hotmail, check out my messages, download attachement, everything worked fine.

    Three days later, I could no longer download attachments... My version of Safari hadn't changed, but somehow, after three days, it didn't work as well as it did. Hmmm...

    In a less anecdotal way, you might remember Microsoft "borking" Opera [opera.com], or the infamous Microsoft hack that screwed with Netscape back in the 90s.
    If we're lucky, "leaked" memos will show up in a few years detailing how Microsoft purposefully decided to screw with their competition for their new zune.
    • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

      by Tragek (772040)
      " the infamous Microsoft hack that screwed with Netscape back in the 90s"

      You mean IE?
  • by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 03, 2007 @03:40PM (#17875406)
    Vista and iTunes were working together fine during the open beta but that doesn't mean Microsoft didn't make last minute changes that broke iTunes. Further, the fact that some people are using iTunes now without issue doesn't mean Apple is spreading FUD. An operating system is a complex animal, obviously there are differences between the various flavors of Vista so that iTunes might be fine on a Professional version but not work with a Home version. And while many people are using iTunes on Vista today doesn't mean some nasty bug (oops, I mean feature) won't rear up and bite their butt tomorrow.
  • by Hallowed (229057) on Saturday February 03, 2007 @03:41PM (#17875418)
    What, didn't you notice that Vista said "Permanently Remove Hardware" instead of "Safely Remove Hardware"? It's not a bug, it's a feature!
  • Winamp USB (Score:4, Interesting)

    by haijak (573586) * on Saturday February 03, 2007 @03:46PM (#17875476) Homepage

    If I have Winamp running and put in a USB CF reader with photos on it, I get a prompt about Winamp managing this possible media player. Of course I decline and copy off my photos, then remove the card. As soon as I remove the card, Winamp crashes.

    So while I'm sure using iTunes will probably be fine, The USB media device management has some issues that ether Microsoft or the software makers need to handle. I would bet that is what Apple is talking about.

  • by dl_zero (933977) on Saturday February 03, 2007 @04:15PM (#17875718)
    It has nothing to do with the iPod (unfortunately). The problem is the way vista sometimes handles removable mass storage. The other day, I had a 250GB external HD and when I used it with Vista, it corrupted the whole partition table. I was able to recover the data because only the partitions were deleted, but either way, its a flaw in Vista
  • by Jugalator (259273) on Saturday February 03, 2007 @04:43PM (#17875922) Journal
    After having actually used ( please don't waste your time commenting here if you haven't :-p ) Vista, I think the app compatibility has been as good as I can expect from a major OS upgrade. In other words, similar to where Windows 2000 was when it was fresh out the door. Lots work, some things don't. Especially if the applications are designed in a user-oriented way that understands Windows actually has a user home directory, they seem to work well. The most common problems seem to be software that work in a very machine local way. Compare to if a Linux application would try install things under \root\FancyApp instead of the home directory. Even here, Vista tries to resolve things in a clean way for backwards compatibility, but sometimes fail, especially when UAC prompts are active.

    With that in mind...

    If it is not who do you think is 'at fault' here, Microsoft or Apple?

    Since Apple isn't whining about Microsoft's Vista compatibility (they would definitely be in a position to do so, especially with Microsoft's recent lashes at Apple), but taking full responsibility at fixing their app ASAP, and that application incompatibilities hasn't been overly common in Vista (it's far worse with drivers), I'd say that Apple has made a boo-boo at their software design. They aren't great developers of Windows applications anyway, as any user of Windows QuickTime vs Apple QuickTime should be able to confirm.
  • Or, Vista ain't done till iTunes won't run =)
  • by Jahz (831343) on Saturday February 03, 2007 @05:04PM (#17876096) Homepage Journal
    The post was clearly craftd very carefully to spur head-on-head mud slinging... Why must we place blame for something so menial? There are so many more problems with Visa and third-party software that this is just pathetic to speak of. It just means you should charge your iPod via the included wall adapter for a little while. Or an even better strategy is to either dual boot vista+xp or JUST WAIT ON VISTA.

    Why don't we talk more about how Nvidia promised us Vista support and largely failed. Note that Apple never promised us that... If you can't even install Vista on your computer, why worry about syncing your iPod with it. I personally just got vista on my high-end Nforce4 machine yesterday. I had to use these workaround drivers from a community website to get Vista to even install on my integrated nvidia RAID setup. Now with all the WHCL signed drivers and the machine all set up, it will periodically just crash. Works great other than that, except for using 515 MB of RAM just to boot.

    Pick your battles fools. BTW, iTunes works perfectly for playing music on Vista.

You are in a maze of little twisting passages, all alike.

Working...