Apple's SproutCore, OSS Javascript-Based Web Apps

99BottlesOfBeerInMyF writes "AppleInsider is running an article about Apple's new SproutCore Web application development framework, utilizing Javascript and some nifty HTML 5 to offer a 'Cocoa-inspired' way to create powerful Web applications. Apple built on the OSS SproutIt framework developed for an online e-mail manager called 'Mailroom.' Apple used this framework to build their new Web application suite (replacing .Mac) called MobileMe. Since SproutCore applications rely on JavaScript, it seems Apple had good reason to focus on Squirrelfish for faster JavaScript interpretation in Webkit. Apple hosted a session last Friday at WWDC introducing SproutCore to developers, but obviously NDAs prevent developers from revealing the details of that presentation. Apple has a chance here to keep the Web becoming even more proprietary as Silverlight and Flash battle it out to lock the Web application market into one proprietary format or another. Either way, this is a potential alternative, which should make the OSS crowd happy." TechDIrt's writeup on the browser evolving towards acting as an OS expands on the theme AppleInsider raises.

But what will the code look like?

[Denger256]

That's my question. I have seen too many apps that "help" you create websites but the code it generates is a mess. And if you want to integrate it with another app forget it.
For example where I work we were building a B2C app and instead of wasting coder time building the bla bla stuff around the real working site. They used go live and in the end we had to re-do it all.

Re:There are many areas where Apple matters

[samkass]

I think "retard" is a little strong. Obviously you're not in MobileMe's target market, but there is an integration between Apple's products that makes things easier for those "retards" who don't mind paying money for having things handed to them instead of spending time digging around the internet like you (and I) do.

And any time someone brings something new and interesting to the web, especially something they're willing to open source, it's a positive thing.

Re:Roughly Drafted==Spam

[Nicky G]

Sorry, I don't keep up with the minute-by-minute Mac fanboy vs. Windows fanboy battles on the Intertron -- just linking to a relevant article on the subject at hand. I actually don't use Digg, so I have no idea about the history there. Some of Daniel's articles come off as a bit skewed, sure, but it's his blog and he's entitled to his opinion. Plus, is trying to get a few people to email Digg and Apple, which your linked blog article claims, the same as "spamming" it? Give me a break.

How does that work?

[zogger]

How do those seekrit sh-h-h-h-h don't tell nobody! NDAs work with OSS? The "O" part starts for "open". "..and now here we show you these open source new goodies, but you can't tell anyone about them, no details, nor show them, but they are really open, honest!"

Good luck with that. Apple makes some good stuff, but let us not confuse them with being some sort of "open" champions, because they are *not*.

Re:proprietary

[mrsteveman1]

Yea but, whats the point?

If things can be accomplished with COMPLETELY open and free (as in freedom) frameworks and languages, why choose Flash?

Re:proprietary

[appleguru]

You're missing the point... flash and silverlight require plugins to work in a web browser. Not only is this an extra install for the end user, it also means not all platforms and browsers will be supported (A great example being no flash/silverlight on the iPhone...) The nice thing about "SproutCore" is that is 100% based on web standards (HTML, XML, JavaScript, etc) and will work on any platform and in any browser that follows those standards out of the box, no plugins needed!

Re:Apples and Oranges

[MightyYar]

Flame/mod away, but it's true.

Now, there's no need for that, now is there? :)

I don't think anyone expects SproutCore to "kill" Flash in its current usage - mostly ads and multimedia. I think the claim is that SproutCore could kill Flash's aspirations (via AIR) to become a standard for building rich apps on the browser.

I mean, you have to admit that if you were considering building a rich app, and you were looking at all of the options... well, now Apple has some real rich apps working via javascript and Google has always had their javascript rich apps - at the very least it shows you that you can be successful while sticking with javascript.

Re:Roughly Drafted==Spam

[Admiral Ag]

Rubbish.

Roughly Drafted is one of the better Apple blogs out there. I don't agree with everything the guy says, but it is original and interesting, unlike most Apple blogs, which are just rehashes of press releases (sadly much like the rest of the news).

Re:proprietary

[erikina]

I look at Flash opening its specifications as an act of desperation by Adobe to save it from Silverlight. And I've tried Gnash, and to call it usable is a joke. I experienced a total of 1 or 2 websites that it actually worked with. Swfdec was a little better. And the youtube "working" (does it even seek yet?) is not some natural consequence of a decent flash player, but the result of specifically targeting it - and is highly unrepresentative of the rest of the web.

These days, I try not use flash (got flashblock) but for the times I need it, the official Adobe is installed. Perhaps when Silverlight gets released for linux, and developers start using it - Adobe will lift its game a bit.

Re:tagging retards...

[K. S. Kyosuke]

We have also created some build tools that will take care of efficiently packaging your HTML, JS, and CSS for delivery over the web that are based on Ruby. However, Ruby is not required for you to use SproutCore except during development.

Besides from being lazy enough not to investigate further, do you have any other reason to call a perfectly fine programming language "a bitch" just for the sake of a part of its users?

Re:Web 2.0 exists because

[ahankinson]

Almost. The iPhone is the most viable portable (as in, in-pocket) mobile web platform out there right now. So much so, in fact, that I would say that the awkwardness in having to pinch and squeeze websites to view them is cancelled out by the convenience of having the web without lugging around a laptop.

Re:proprietary

[Anonymous Coward]

The part of the article you quoted actually makes no sense. Apple has a chance to keep the Web becoming more proprietary by releasing OSS framework? I think the submitter means

Apple has a chance here to keep the Web from becoming even more proprietary as Silverlight and Flash battle it out to lock the Web application market into one proprietary format or another.

Apples and Apples

[TubeSteak]

Comparing SproutCore to Flash ... is nonsense.

It's apples to apples.
Flash & anything javascript related is a security bomb waiting to go off.
Just because this is coming from Apple doesn't remove the deficiencies in Javascript.
 
/I don't actually know anything about Silverlight's security or lack thereof, so I left them out of this.

Re:lockin

[ceoyoyo]

So... you're excited about SproutCore which is open source and specifically designed to be cross platform?

moderation should require an IQ test

[Anonymous Coward]

mods, this is not really very interesting. There is zero information content, and frankly, it's stated so poorly that it's not even really clear what riceboy50 is actually saying, except, "me thinks Flash bad." Nobody gives a rat's ass if some imbecile tried Flash once and it crashed is 486 PC running Windows 95 and Netscape. What if he had said exactly the same thing about Javascript? It would be interesting if he had provided, oh, any information at all. Yeah, we all *know* Flash is a bloated horrible pile of crap. But saying that isn't interesting, if anything it's redundant.

Re:Web 2.0 exists because

[Nazlfrag]

What of the Nokia N810? You get a Mozilla browser w/full Java support, Flash 9.0, keyboard, 800x480 screen. Sure, you need wifi or a bluetooth phone to connect, but it seems much more viable for easy surfing with the flash support, keyboard and nice wide screen.

Re:How does that work?

[foniksonik]

Uh... ever used a OSS language or library to create something really cool? Did you just hand it out immediately to anyone who glanced your way? Probably not... you probably enjoyed the attention for a little while, then doled it out when you had everything packaged up nice and pretty so nobody would know that you hadn't quite cleaned up your fancy pants code before announcing it.

Same is true with Apple. They often keep things closed or at least private until they are ready for general consumption.... ie: well documented APIs, community tools in place, a stable codebase, etc.

NDAs work just fine with OSS... you don't have to publicly announce what you are *planning* to do with OSS.

Re:Apples and Oranges

[Shag]

more and more I'm seeing businesses ask for extremely rich interface intranet-ish apps to be done as web apps, and then be frustrated when the standards/JavaScript/etc. solution either is quirky or non-performant in some way that really matters to them. I think this kind of app is going to be done more and more with Flex or Silverlight or something similar in the next few years, and I don't see SproutCore as seriously competing in that space.

Back when I first started getting paid to do web stuff (early 1995) businesses routinely asked for things that made no sense for the web, and couldn't be done cross-platform with out-of-the-box browers.

It's so nice to see that businesses still haven't gotten a clue, and prefer technologies that will isolate chunks of their potential customer base.

(Remember, when you code something for Flash N, all those people with Flash N-1 or N-2 are screwed until they install the new version, presuming the new version's available for their platform.)

Yeah, JavaScript sucks. So does Flash. So does all software. The only difference is how.

Supporter here

[SuperKendall]

I was one of the ones who wrote. I'm a very real person, one who dislikes censorship of any form - the rest of you should be ashamed for promoting attacks on someone who is simply strongly opinionated. I am no minion or sock puppet, but someone concerned that very small groups are controlling most content that users see on digg, that kind of story inbreeding is really healthy for any site (and indeed on any given day you can see that over the years Digg frontpage story quality has dropped significantly).

I just wanted to throw in some words of support in the midst of the AC wasteland from people who can't even post with a real userID.

Re:lockin

[Anonymous Coward]

Never bothered to get deep into Objective-C? What about C++ or Java or C#? If you're comfortable with basic C syntax and know a little about object-oriented programming in general, the Objective-C language can be learned in a few hours. Seriously.

Mastering a framework like Cocoa is the big task; learning the language isn't difficult for most programmers.

You're a programmer. Tools evolve, and change, and learning new things is part of the game, and always will be. Sometimes previous knowledge is portable, often it is not. If portability is that important to you, then by all means study only portable technologies. But in the real world, portability is more often an ideal than anything of great practical value.

What the hell would I know, I've only been programming on CP/M, DOS, Windows, Palm OS, and OS X for 25 years or so...