Barence writes "Microsoft is reportedly considering offering Windows 7 on USB thumb drives to allow netbook owners to upgrade their machines. Windows has, until now, only been distributed on DVDs or via download. However, netbooks don't have optical drives and the Windows 7 ISO weighs in at 2.3GB, which would take several hours to download on an average broadband connection and potentially do serious damage to a customer's broadband data cap."
Virus or not, Windows must be getting pretty good if this "data cap" shit is all they can come up with. The last Linux distro I downloaded weighed in at 4,3 Gb and it was nowhere near complete.
Yes, I know, there's Geexbox with its 20 Mb, but that's not a full OS.
The last Linux distro I downloaded weighed in at 4,3 Gb
Installed size? Or disk size? Because many distros include hundreds (thousands?) of software packages that are not part of the default install. Often, software types that MS would get into deep trouble for bundling with windows.
The last Linux distro I downloaded weighed in at 4,3 Gb and it was nowhere near complete.
No version of Windows I've ever seen is "anywhere near complete". You have to download 3rd-party drivers and software, unless you don't plan to do anything but play minesweeper.
Well, if they added any of that stuff, they'd be in court again... There's a free (beer) security suite MS recently announced, though I'll keep nod32. MS would probably love to include a "Lite" version of Word. Then again, OOo is available for win too. CD burning (images too) are in Win7. Nothing built in for file xfer, but there's always Filezilla. IE8 on Win7 is sandboxed, which is better than other browsers on any OS currently, which run in full user context. IIRC messenger is included as well.
I
No, you get a fully functional system off the CD, perhaps minus some oddball drivers. It is no less than Windows. Net access is not required for the install.
Windows 7 64bit install is 10 GB, even with significant amount of features turned off (and compressed,removed).
Also, when comparing Linux to anything else, install a full feature development environment to that OS along with Documentation which will also include debug libraries etc. For example Visual Studio and XCode on OS X. That is the real size for you to compare while there are many other effects like Windows help files (CHM) are really,really compressed to a point to choke low Mhz systems.
Another thing is, the amazing waste of space MS does by basically copying entire thing to local HD while installing. I wondered if they were that stupid and now we see the real deal, it was all for these kinds of feature plans. You know, user will likely delete the USB key contents somehow or they will get corrupted etc.
by Anonymous Coward
on Saturday June 27, @02:45PM (#28496967)
The summary states "Windows has, until now, only been distributed on DVDs or via download"
Calling BS , raise your hand if you remember windows on CD's, 3.5, or floppy... Windows has been distributed ion many methods.
The summary states "Windows has, until now, only been distributed on DVDs or via download" Calling BS , raise your hand if you remember windows on CD's, 3.5, or floppy... Windows has been distributed ion many methods.
As I recall, Windows 95 was the last one to be distributed on floppy. I remember installing it, and it was a ridiculous number of floppies. Upwards of 20 I think.
As I recall, Windows 95 was the last one to be distributed on floppy. I remember installing it, and it was a ridiculous number of floppies. Upwards of 20 I think.
You forgot to say "among windows users". Moving from 1 windows version to another is not equivalent to moving from windows to linux. So what was your point again ?
If it's taking someone (in the US) "several hours" to download 2+ GB with their "average broadband connection", then they don't have an "average broadband connection". There is some debate about what the average broadband speed actually is in the US, but even the low end is 1.9mbps (that was from an Ars Technica back in 2007 - surely it's faster by now). Let's take the midrange, again from back in 2007, of 4.8mbps. That makes a 2.3GB download take little more than one hour. Even if congestion slows ones spe
You may not be aware that "average" in New York City, and "average" in Backwoods Nowhere are entirely two different animals. It takes me DAYS to download a 4 GB ISO. Seriously, I wouldn't bullshit you. I use Firestarter firewall, and set it to shape traffice, giving priority to interactive (browsing) traffic, so I'm only using about 85 to 90 % of my bandwidth for a download. On "average" it takes between 4 1/2 and 6 days to download a movie.
Now that you realize that not everyone has the bandwidth that you enjoy, you might do a little research, and find out what percentage of the US population enjoys "fast" internet. Or not. No research is required to stick your foot in your mouth again.;)
Lets play with some numbers. To be considered a broadband connection it has to be at least 256 Kb/sec. This works to about 32 KB/sec. 2.3 GB then would take almost 21 hours. 512Kb = 10.5 hours, 1024 = 5.25 hours, etc. (you can see the pattern) Yeah, that would take a while. Even my home connection(5Mbit, so I'm going to call that 5000 Kb/sec (which I have held solid for a few hours at slightly above 600KB/sec) ) would be 1.1 hours. Still awfully long depending on if it was able to hold that the entire time.
The article to which you are referring is probably this one [arstechnica.com] It's not quite clear how 1.9 Mbs is the average. Is it a mode, a median, or a mean?
The paper behind the article includes this gem.
There are 8 megabits in a megabyte, so a 100 megabit per second connection takes 8 seconds to transmit a 100 megabyte file.
Who hired them and how long do you think they will last at Microsoft? hohoho
Ok, being serious. It makes sense. With Time Warner slapping draconian download caps on those poor people in Texas, a USB flash drive for OS distribution in a growing netbook market shows some...slight...thinking ahead of the curve. Can you imagine the ire of not only having to download a 3.5GB OS onto a netbook but if you actually run over your cap and get charged EXTRA for it? Oh man. I would shoot my netbook.
Kudos to whomever pulled this rabbit out of the hat.
On a related note, several years back, I emailed Ubuntu with a product suggestion. I asked them for "Ubuntu on USB Flash Drives", installable via a simple Windows executable. Double click the executable, choose your USB flash drive, and it would install on the USB flash drive and just work.
My thought was that it would make it much easier for Windows users that are curious about Linux to try it out. No need to burn a disc first (burning discs can be complicated for non-technical users), no need to boot from the optical drive to get into the Ubuntu installer, etc.
And since USB flash drives are read/write, you could even let them update packages, save documents, etc. A much better, more realistic experience than a read-only test drive of Ubuntu on CD.
They very kindly replied thanking me for the suggestion, but alas, it never materialized...
USB drives are still more expensive and heavier compared to CDs.. They can easily order 50.000 cd's cheaply... When they offered Ubuntu for free, they were practically begging people to request up to 10 discs at once and give the ones they don't need to friends because the shipping costs were higher than the costs of manufacturing them.
No, he said he wanted a Windows Executable with a nice GUI that would automatically download the right soft (Some custom ISO) and let you store everything you need in your USB Pendrive, like codecs, office alternatives, Firefox, etc. Something my parents could do over the phone as long as they have USB booting as default to migrate.
That's not a new idea at all. Mandriva [mandriva.com] already does that and it has been doing that for years. I mean, since the days of Mandrake 9.2, I believe. That means since the days of Ubuntu 5.04, now that it appears that everything linux has been somehow reduced and limited to Ubuntu.
"They very kindly replied thanking me for the suggestion, but alas, it never materialized..."
^_^ Actually, it did. Grab the most recent copy of Ubuntu on a live CD, boot into it, go to "System", "Administration", and click "USB Startup Disk Creator".
It takes ANY ISO and makes a USB bootable with it. Have used it already, worked great for installing to an EEE.
It seems to me that a usb ROM would make a ton of sense for things like this. If not USB than SD cards - as these are becoming fairly ubiquitous pretty quickly.
the Windows 7 ISO weighs in at 2.3GB, which would take several hours to download on an average broadband connection and potentially do serious damage to a customer's broadband data cap.
There is an easy solution to this problem: if you don't have a decent connection at home, download the ISO at work. Check with your company's firewall nazi (that's one of the hats I wear during the day). See if he/she objects to you downloading that ISO or if company policy prohibits this type of download. If you ask nicely, the firewall nazi will probably find a way to download that ISO image rather quickly and you won't have to worry about burning up your bandwidth cap at home or waiting five days for the download at home to finish. If you mention something like, "Hey, I heard you like Five Guys. Can I buy you a burger and fries sometime?" as you hand the USB drive to the fw nazi, he/she will be much more receptive to your request. It's all in how you ask. Am I going to download a copy of the latest Star Trek movie for you (even if some free F.G. is on the line)? *No.* Would I download an ISO from Microsoft for you if you ask in a pleasant tone? Probably. Also, the chances are good that I have already downloaded that ISO for my own testing or someone who sits near me at work has a copy of that ISO.
Isn't the news of Microsofts ideas. It's that the article already makes the assumption that you have bandwidth caps and Microsoft is having to work around them. On Microsoft's front, this is great. However, this just reeks of society accepting that bandwidth caps are here, acceptable, and we should just succumb to our limitations.
If the article had instead mentioned the "new unacceptable limitations being imposed by broadband ISPs" I would see it differently. Instead it states "...which would take several hours to download on an average broadband connection and potentially do serious damage to a customer's broadband data cap.".
To me, the article writer is already stating that bandwidth caps are here to stay, we lost the war on bandwidth caps, and we should rejoice that Microsoft has plans to overcome these obstacles.
This is always how major obstacles are overcome when the public cries.
1. Proudly display your new 'grand plan' and how it's 'needed' or 'helpful'. 2. Public outcry comes and you dash for cover to avoid being attacked. 3. Bring the program back a little at a time and convince the press (or buy them) into stating your plan as if it is already here and in use. 4. Bring your 'grand plan' to market. The public is sick of hearing about the negatives of the 'grand plan' and have decided that it WILL happen, there's nothing they can do about it, and should just accept that it is here to stay.
This happens with MANY things in life...Obama's 'grand' plan for health care, Bush's bailout plans, ISP bandwidth caps... I could make a very long list of things that you can read about that are worded as if they are here already.
I admit, the article is written with a.uk domain, so maybe the UK already has imposed limits. But I've seen wording here in the USA making statements implying everyone in the USA has bandwidth caps and we should all run and check them regularly.
Of course, they just need to put a different type of chip in the thumbdrive, no biggie. The problem is that flash memory might be a lot cheaper due the massive amount of factories already tooled to produce it. Maybe they could include a physical write protect switch like you see on floppies, or something.
They'll probably just wire a standard flash chip shut with the same pin used for the write-protect switches that some of them come with. Then there will be some "hardhack" Slashdot story about someone who managed to put Ubuntu on an AOL or Microsoft flash chip after taking a soldering iron to it.
I installed the Win7 Beta on a netbook as a test. It works surprising well (Vista did not, XP or Linux far better than Win7), except the video is screwed up for high end graphics applications like those silly new games that require the graphics capacity of a combined Pixar and Dreamworks production.
One more more thing: Use mofo or some other less offensive term. The rest of us are able to maintain etiquette even when anonymously corresponding on line.
It's Amazing (Score:5, Funny)
And Microsoft chases OLPC once again [slashdot.org].
Re:It's Amazing (Score:4, Insightful)
Virus or not, Windows must be getting pretty good if this "data cap" shit is all they can come up with. The last Linux distro I downloaded weighed in at 4,3 Gb and it was nowhere near complete.
Yes, I know, there's Geexbox with its 20 Mb, but that's not a full OS.
Parent
Re:It's Amazing (Score:5, Insightful)
The last Linux distro I downloaded weighed in at 4,3 Gb
Installed size? Or disk size? Because many distros include hundreds (thousands?) of software packages that are not part of the default install.
Often, software types that MS would get into deep trouble for bundling with windows.
Parent
Re:It's Amazing (Score:5, Informative)
Hint: 4,3 Gb is the capacity of a DVD. And it was compressed with squashfs, too.
Parent
Re:It's Amazing (Score:5, Insightful)
No version of Windows I've ever seen is "anywhere near complete". You have to download 3rd-party drivers and software, unless you don't plan to do anything but play minesweeper.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:It's Amazing (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Re:It's Amazing (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Re:It's Amazing (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
10 GB last time I checked (2 days ago) (Score:4, Interesting)
Windows 7 64bit install is 10 GB, even with significant amount of features turned off (and compressed,removed).
Also, when comparing Linux to anything else, install a full feature development environment to that OS along with Documentation which will also include debug libraries etc. For example Visual Studio and XCode on OS X. That is the real size for you to compare while there are many other effects like Windows help files (CHM) are really,really compressed to a point to choke low Mhz systems.
Another thing is, the amazing waste of space MS does by basically copying entire thing to local HD while installing. I wondered if they were that stupid and now we see the real deal, it was all for these kinds of feature plans. You know, user will likely delete the USB key contents somehow or they will get corrupted etc.
Parent
Re:It's Amazing (Score:4, Insightful)
The last Linux distro I downloaded weighed in at 4,3 Gb and it was nowhere near complete.
Try Ubuntu.
BTW: the 4.3 GB distro was not "Linux" but Linux with a lot of applications.
Parent
I encourage this trend (Score:5, Funny)
The next step is to convince AOL to start sending out their software on thumb drives. Then we all win!
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Not if they send out 64 MB thumb drives. :P
By the way: Does this still happen in reality? I haven't seen their CDs for a decade.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
RAID.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Just put tape over the tab and you're good to go!
not to be a douche... (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
The summary states "Windows has, until now, only been distributed on DVDs or via download" Calling BS , raise your hand if you remember windows on CD's, 3.5, or floppy... Windows has been distributed ion many methods.
IIRC, MS Office was offered on floppies as well.
Re:not to be a douche... (Score:5, Informative)
And the 32nd floppy would have an unrecoverable read error during the install.
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
As I recall, Windows 95 was the last one to be distributed on floppy. I remember installing it, and it was a ridiculous number of floppies. Upwards of 20 I think.
Nope only 13. Windows NT 3.1 came on 22 though.
Re: (Score:2)
Less than $10 on ebay [ebay.com]
Windows Live Live Distro finally means something (Score:2, Funny)
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
http://www.nu2.nu/pebuilder/ [nu2.nu]
BartPE?
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Maybe MSFT can copy Linux and make it a live distro so people can try it out before full install... wait, that'll never make them bite. Nevermind.
It may not be a "live distro," but Win 7 has already captured about half the desktop share of Linux. Operating System Market Share [hitslink.com]
Net Applications is mass-market oriented. If your gadget can access the web, Net Applications will track it.
W3Schools is developer-oriented. But even there Win 7 has 1/4 the share of Linux. OS Platform Statistics [w3schools.com]
It took Linux six d
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Not so average (Score:2)
Re:Not so average (Score:5, Interesting)
You may not be aware that "average" in New York City, and "average" in Backwoods Nowhere are entirely two different animals. It takes me DAYS to download a 4 GB ISO. Seriously, I wouldn't bullshit you. I use Firestarter firewall, and set it to shape traffice, giving priority to interactive (browsing) traffic, so I'm only using about 85 to 90 % of my bandwidth for a download. On "average" it takes between 4 1/2 and 6 days to download a movie.
Now that you realize that not everyone has the bandwidth that you enjoy, you might do a little research, and find out what percentage of the US population enjoys "fast" internet. Or not. No research is required to stick your foot in your mouth again. ;)
Parent
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
Lets play with some numbers. To be considered a broadband connection it has to be at least 256 Kb/sec. This works to about 32 KB/sec.
2.3 GB then would take almost 21 hours. 512Kb = 10.5 hours, 1024 = 5.25 hours, etc. (you can see the pattern)
Yeah, that would take a while. Even my home connection(5Mbit, so I'm going to call that 5000 Kb/sec (which I have held solid for a few hours at slightly above 600KB/sec) ) would be 1.1 hours. Still awfully long depending on if it was able to hold that the entire time.
P
Re: (Score:2)
The article to which you are referring is probably this one [arstechnica.com] It's not quite clear how 1.9 Mbs is the average. Is it a mode, a median, or a mean?
The paper behind the article includes this gem.
There are 8 megabits in a megabyte, so a 100 megabit per second connection takes 8 seconds to transmit a 100
megabyte file.
Somebody is thinking at Microsoft? (Score:5, Insightful)
Ok, being serious. It makes sense. With Time Warner slapping draconian download caps on those poor people in Texas, a USB flash drive for OS distribution in a growing netbook market shows some...slight...thinking ahead of the curve. Can you imagine the ire of not only having to download a 3.5GB OS onto a netbook but if you actually run over your cap and get charged EXTRA for it? Oh man. I would shoot my netbook.
Kudos to whomever pulled this rabbit out of the hat.
Linux on USB Flash Drives (Score:3, Interesting)
On a related note, several years back, I emailed Ubuntu with a product suggestion. I asked them for "Ubuntu on USB Flash Drives", installable via a simple Windows executable. Double click the executable, choose your USB flash drive, and it would install on the USB flash drive and just work.
My thought was that it would make it much easier for Windows users that are curious about Linux to try it out. No need to burn a disc first (burning discs can be complicated for non-technical users), no need to boot from the optical drive to get into the Ubuntu installer, etc.
And since USB flash drives are read/write, you could even let them update packages, save documents, etc. A much better, more realistic experience than a read-only test drive of Ubuntu on CD.
They very kindly replied thanking me for the suggestion, but alas, it never materialized...
Re:Linux on USB Flash Drives (Score:5, Informative)
I think you're looking for UNetbootin [sourceforge.net].
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
USB drives are still more expensive and heavier compared to CDs.. They can easily order 50.000 cd's cheaply... When they offered Ubuntu for free, they were practically begging people to request up to 10 discs at once and give the ones they don't need to friends because the shipping costs were higher than the costs of manufacturing them.
Re: (Score:2)
http://www.pendrivelinux.com/ [pendrivelinux.com]
Pen Drive Linux to the rescue!!!
Re: (Score:2)
https://help.ubuntu.com/9.04/installation-guide/i386/boot-usb-files.html [ubuntu.com]
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/FromUSBStick [ubuntu.com]
Re: (Score:2)
No, he said he wanted a Windows Executable with a nice GUI that would automatically download the right soft (Some custom ISO) and let you store everything you need in your USB Pendrive, like codecs, office alternatives, Firefox, etc.
Something my parents could do over the phone as long as they have USB booting as default to migrate.
Re:Linux on USB Flash Drives (Score:4, Informative)
Parent
Re:Linux on USB Flash Drives (Score:4, Informative)
^_^ Actually, it did. Grab the most recent copy of Ubuntu on a live CD, boot into it, go to "System", "Administration", and click "USB Startup Disk Creator".
It takes ANY ISO and makes a USB bootable with it. Have used it already, worked great for installing to an EEE.
Parent
I've wondered why there are no usb ROM disks (Score:2)
It seems to me that a usb ROM would make a ton of sense for things like this. If not USB than SD cards - as these are becoming fairly ubiquitous pretty quickly.
Whoa! (Score:2)
Easy solution to this problem: Bribe fw nazi (Score:5, Insightful)
There is an easy solution to this problem: if you don't have a decent connection at home, download the ISO at work. Check with your company's firewall nazi (that's one of the hats I wear during the day). See if he/she objects to you downloading that ISO or if company policy prohibits this type of download. If you ask nicely, the firewall nazi will probably find a way to download that ISO image rather quickly and you won't have to worry about burning up your bandwidth cap at home or waiting five days for the download at home to finish. If you mention something like, "Hey, I heard you like Five Guys. Can I buy you a burger and fries sometime?" as you hand the USB drive to the fw nazi, he/she will be much more receptive to your request. It's all in how you ask. Am I going to download a copy of the latest Star Trek movie for you (even if some free F.G. is on the line)? *No.* Would I download an ISO from Microsoft for you if you ask in a pleasant tone? Probably. Also, the chances are good that I have already downloaded that ISO for my own testing or someone who sits near me at work has a copy of that ISO.
If they were really on the ball (Score:5, Funny)
They would offer Windows 7 in a convenient suppository.
What concerns me the most about this article... (Score:5, Interesting)
Isn't the news of Microsofts ideas. It's that the article already makes the assumption that you have bandwidth caps and Microsoft is having to work around them. On Microsoft's front, this is great. However, this just reeks of society accepting that bandwidth caps are here, acceptable, and we should just succumb to our limitations.
If the article had instead mentioned the "new unacceptable limitations being imposed by broadband ISPs" I would see it differently. Instead it states "...which would take several hours to download on an average broadband connection and potentially do serious damage to a customer's broadband data cap.".
To me, the article writer is already stating that bandwidth caps are here to stay, we lost the war on bandwidth caps, and we should rejoice that Microsoft has plans to overcome these obstacles.
This is always how major obstacles are overcome when the public cries.
1. Proudly display your new 'grand plan' and how it's 'needed' or 'helpful'.
2. Public outcry comes and you dash for cover to avoid being attacked.
3. Bring the program back a little at a time and convince the press (or buy them) into stating your plan as if it is already here and in use.
4. Bring your 'grand plan' to market. The public is sick of hearing about the negatives of the 'grand plan' and have decided that it WILL happen, there's nothing they can do about it, and should just accept that it is here to stay.
This happens with MANY things in life...Obama's 'grand' plan for health care, Bush's bailout plans, ISP bandwidth caps... I could make a very long list of things that you can read about that are worded as if they are here already.
I admit, the article is written with a .uk domain, so maybe the UK already has imposed limits. But I've seen wording here in the USA making statements implying everyone in the USA has bandwidth caps and we should all run and check them regularly.
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
Of course, they just need to put a different type of chip in the thumbdrive, no biggie. The problem is that flash memory might be a lot cheaper due the massive amount of factories already tooled to produce it. Maybe they could include a physical write protect switch like you see on floppies, or something.
Re:ROM drives possible? (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
One thing I noticed is that my hard drive light it pulsing every few seconds. I wonder whether that is a background indexing service doing its thing?
No, thats insert polling on your SATA ports, presumably because you have a SATA device that supports removable media (CDRom, DVDRom, ...)
Thats not a Hard Drive light, thats an I/O light. Nerds are supposed to know what that light is.
Re:Idiots. (Score:5, Funny)
Whoever installs Windows 7 on a goddamn computer is a dumb, dumb motherfucker.
There, I fixed it for you.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Why would anyone want to buy a capped connectio (Score:2)