Tiger4 writes "A group of black Philadelphia police officers have filed a lawsuit against the police department and the city, alleging a hostile work environment due to a private website popular with police. Their story has received wide coverage. From CNN: 'The suit alleges white officers post on and moderate the privately operated site, Domelights.com, both on and off the job. Domelights' users "often joke about the racially offensive commentary on the site ... or will mention them in front of black police officers," thus creating "a racially hostile work environment," according to lawyers for the all-black Guardian Civic League, the lead plaintiff in the suit.' The site appears to be owned and operated by a member of the police force, but it is not funded or operated by the city. Management clearly knows it exists; it is possible police force members access it on the job, and the suit says some of them reference it on the job. Individual police force members have a right to their own opinions, but management has a responsibility to enforce the law fairly and equitably across the city and among their own workforce. What is the solution here?"
by Anonymous Coward
on Saturday July 18, @12:12PM (#28741785)
If you get into the actual facts of the story it is clear, though the summary didn't really touch on it.
At it's heart it's a question of whether a person that runs a bulletin board is responsible for what posters post, a subject of frequent commentary on slashdot.
In point of fact, it would be like calling Commander Taco a racist homophobe because of all the troll spam that's gotten posted here over the years.
"And racist cops are news because??? Also, how is this tech news other than the fact that someone used the internet?"
The moral of the story is that "the all-black Guardian Civic League" is A-OK.
If it was a forum of all minority officers, and they were doing the same thing to all the crackers and honkies (ie, being racist against whites) anyone complaining about it would just be "the man" and "trying to keep them down" and violating their civil rights.
It's like where I went to school. There was a black student union, a black choir and a black homecoming (run in parallel with the normal one) with their own black king and queen. "The man" didn't make these groups to segregate the whites and the blacks, the black students themselves made these organizations. Unfortunately we couldn't ever get anyone brave enough or stupid enough to try to make the white student union, choir, and homecoming.
"If it was a forum of all minority officers, and they were doing the same thing to all the crackers and honkies (ie, being racist against whites) anyone complaining about it would just be "the man" and "trying to keep them down" and violating their civil rights."
And you know this, how? Citation needed.
"It's like where I went to school. There was a black student union, a black choir and a black homecoming (run in parallel with the normal one) with their own black king and queen. "The man" didn't make the
The problem is, cops tend to be jerks no matter who they are.
Please. First, cops who abuse their power for any reason deserve to be fired. Second, a cop who's a jerk to everyone, versus a cop who's just a jerk to black people, are two very *very* different things. The former is at least fair. The latter means the law will likely be unevenly applied, and last I checked, that violated the US's equal protection laws.
And as for racism, everyone is racist to some degree. As evidenced by it we target marketing to certain ethnic groups, fill out ethnic information on census forms, etc.
Holy shit... you aren't seriously trying to draw an equivalence between denigrating someone based on their race, and targeting marketing at them based on cultural differences, are you? Because, frankly, that's fucking absurd. Referring to ethnically-target marketing as racism makes the term utterly meaningless.
Presuming that ethnicity equates to a particular culture is racist, actually. If someone makes an assumption about your attitudes and beliefs based on your race, what else can it be? Now if you want to market something to Americans, you can make that case. If you want to market something to Mexican people or people from Mozambique, then maybe you have a case (though you're still stereotyping). But when you say something along the lines of Person X is Black, therefore they will identify with Culture Y, you'r
First, cops who abuse their power for any reason deserve to be fired.
That's great. But there are a couple issues:
1) The people responsible for firing them are also police, and police like most any other group of workers who must rely on eachother in life-death situations... they get close knit.
2) The type of people that seek to become "cops" is skewed towards power hungry jerks in the first place. So you are picking from a pool that is self-selecting towards the type of people you don't want.
This isn't uncommon... some jobs are best performed by people who don't aspire to the job. From police work to politics to jury duty. Indeed, it seems that any job that gives 'power' is best performed by people who don't aspire to power. But naturally people who do aspire for power will actively seek out those jobs... and then do them poorly.
Wait wait... so a black cop should turn a blind eye to racism in the work place because, otherwise, he may be *risking his life*?? Wow... apparently law enforcement is an even more corrupt, disgusting place than I ever imagined.
Private ownership is private and government ownership is government. Sounds like a simple case of plantiffs going after the deepest pockets and those most easily controlled through political and media manipulation.
Private ownership is private and government ownership is government. Sounds like a simple case of plantiffs going after the deepest pockets and those most easily controlled through political and media manipulation.
And what happens when government employees bring "private ownership" to work in a racist attitude?
Oh yeah, you don't want to address the actual issue here, just quote one small piece and dismiss it entirely.
Reading your post I thought of an interesting situation. Since the site is obviously not overtly racist, is it against the rules for an officer to read any site that might contain racist material in the comments? If so Slashdot would be banned from tons of work places. Being a member of a site that has a few racist assholes, does not make you one of them. On the other hand, participation during work in these discussions ought to be punished. If it can be proven of course.
We have had this sickening pattern of pandering to groups who take the most offense to things. Women in the workplace and black people in the work place. Neither are typically "minorities" and if/when the tables are turned and a group was making "white" or "man" jokes, white men would likely not care at all.
It's time to say "toughen up!!!" It's not like they are in fear of anything. There will always be something to offend people if you dig deep enough. So stop digging and you won't find things. There will always be aspects of humanity and society that seems annoying and offensive. When people take those things too far, you end up living with Taliban rule. What is "too far"? I don't know. But black and female people have long since expired their period of needing special treatment and are fully equal in opportunity and respect as far as I can tell. It's time we all treat each other equally badly.
We have had this sickening pattern of pandering to groups who take the most offense to things. Women in the workplace and black people in the work place. Neither are typically "minorities" and if/when the tables are turned and a group was making "white" or "man" jokes, white men would likely not care at all.
It's time to say "toughen up!!!" It's not like they are in fear of anything.
Actually, men have also files harassment claims, mostly for man on man. I guess they should have just toughened up as well.
The point is that this type of behavior in a workplace is simply wrong; and employers havea duty to take action to prevent or stop it.
I would argue that men filing complaints on men is typically people taking advantage of the system that was built to foster equality in the workplace. And that is yet another problem resulting from the "fixes" put into place.
Women in the workplace and black people in the professional work place "were" new things and needed policies and even laws to make the transition less painful and unpleasant. But it was a//transition// that has been made. All these claims simply aren't needed the way they once were.
OK, here's a part of my past I'd rather forget:
I was a waiter at TGIFridays in '97-'98. I had worked there for a year when a new manager came on duty, I'm 5'10", he's 6'4" and the first day I worked with him he "choked" me to the point where I fell on my knees in front of him in a particularly unnerving way. He had a fairly creepy smile on his face while this was happening. This was a "joke" you see? It was supposed to somehow be funny. I was "lovingly" abused as a child (by a Chicago cop, no less), an
Women in the workplace and black people in the professional work place "were" new things and needed policies and even laws to make the transition less painful and unpleasant. But it was a//transition// that has been made. All these claims simply aren't needed the way they once were.
Too bad you haven't made the transition to HTML.
Snarky asides aside, if you think that white males, any women, and any blacks are equal in the workplace, think again. And if you aren't incensed when your tax dollars are spent to support racism (cops are allegedly using this site during work hours, and the racism is spilling over into the workplace) then you're Part Of The Problem.
But if it's jokes and crap like that? Forget it! There will always be groups and cliques and things that make some people uncomfortable.
The police should be held to a higher standard, as should any government employee, not least because individual citizens don't get to choose where the money goes. Racism begets racism, racist thought begets racist thought, if they're creating this environment amongst themselves, how are they treating The People?
We have had this sickening pattern of pandering to groups who take the most offense to things.
We pander because those same groups have a habit of hiring lawyers and having laws passed to "protect" them.
My girlfriend is black, I'm not... and we both feel precisely the way you do. Granted, she wasn't born here, she's African by birth. In spite of that (or, more likely, because of that, she grew up in some damn tough environments) she believes that a lot of people in this country just need to deal with the fact that life can be harsh. Fact is, some people are assholes. Period, end-of-statement. Wasting more than a millisecond of neuron time over that is a complete waste.
The laws ARE deficient. Nobody should have to endure racist and sexist jokes and commentary at work.
No, they shouldn't. And in this specific case, because their employer is the gov't itself, they should have an internal complaint procedure. It should not involve the courts, and for example if they were working at a grocery store instead of a police department then their only guaranteed resolution would be to quit. At will employment. All these laws to "protect" employees taint the marketplace. If I want to
All these laws to "protect" employees taint the marketplace. If I want to hire somebody to haul live electrical cable around while I smoke cigarettes and blow smoke in their face and an albino midget yells racially crass jokes at them, then that's the job and if they want it we can come to an agreement on pay rates.
Fortunately, people with better business sense than you passed laws to prevent this, ostensibly because there's no business reason for you to be blowing smoke in someone's face while an albino midget yells racially crass jokes at them, and perhaps by avoiding these things the job of hauling live electrical cable around would be safer to both the employee and the public at large.
Also, surprisingly enough, business owners have discovered that treating their employees with dignity and respect tends to improve
Why is it okay to call to call you a "cunt" outside of work, but bad inside of work?
It's not okay to call you a "cunt" outside of work, but outside of work I'm not required to be in your presence. Outside of work I can walk away. I can refuse to socialize with you. At work, I don't have that freedom, at least not without suffering for it. Why should I have to give up my job to escape your abuse?
Either the speech is offensive or it is not. Either we need to be protected from it or we do not. There is no
I do agree that we are to PC, except in the case of what is said about white men. If Sotomayor was a white guy talking about the plight of white men in this country everyone would have been yelling racism. But when you have an openly racist police officer, that is a totally different than just dealing with people not being PC.
We have had this sickening pattern of pandering to groups who take the most offense to things. Women in the workplace and black people in the work place. Neither are typically "minorities" and if/when the tables are turned and a group was making "white" or "man" jokes, white men would likely not care at all.
Using women or blacks as an example and how they're allowed to make jokes that others aren't is a specious argument; Two wrongs don't make a right. The issue is that some people are failing to keep things professional. The expectation when you show up to work is that you work. Everything else is secondary to that, and if your color commentary is interfering with my (or anyone else's) work, it needs to stop. It's just that simple. You don't have a right to be offensive. That said, you're right insofar as some people overreact--just because someone else is a douche doesn't mean you have to sink to their level. A polite reminder or a memo is sufficient in 95% of all cases to correct the behavior. You don't even have to involve a manager most of the time. People are dumb, they make mistakes; Don't get worked up about it. For the remaining 5%, we have laws like this. On the clock, everything you do should be related to your job. But if you can't do that, at least have the decency to be mindful of the company you're keeping and making sure they are okay with your side conversation. It's just... being a decent human being.
That said, police work consists of piss poor pay, long hours, high stress, a decent risk of getting a bullet in your ass, and it's a thankless profession. Like EMTs, most emergency services personnel have a dry and/or odd sense of humor that others find morbid, offensive, or downright rude. A lot of them smoke or "self-medicate" to cope. I think it's only natural that they'd need an outlet to express their work frustrations outside of work. And once it leaves the workplace, it's fair game, first amendment and everything. What you do on your own time is your own business, even if it is offensive and derogatory towards your coworkers. As a woman, I expect men to make sexually crass comments when I'm not around. I also know some of them will go home and smoke pot, do drugs, eat hot dogs and hamburgers until their heart explodes... and you know what? I'm okay with that. Just keep it away from me.
People need to be mindful of the social spaces they occupy. I don't go to the bar dressed in a low-cut dress and then act outraged when some drunk creepy guy (or girl) hits on me. That's what bars are for. If the same person shows up drunk at the grocery store when I'm dressed in nothing more than jeans and a hoodie and does the same thing he's playing with fire. Likewise, showing up on an electronic forum for inner-city cops is likely to be full of racist, sexist, and every other kind of -ist and -ism out there, not because those people are somehow inherently evil, but because they deal with the worst examples of those groups on long shifts day after day.
Not at all. If women can make sexist jokes that a man couldn't, it's a double standard, which is what we're trying to avoid.
Do you exercise any care at all in what you read or are you in such a hurry that you stomp on other people in your efforts to attain the moral high ground? Go and read my post again and quote where in there I said I supported making sexist jokes at work, let alone double standards.
Read through my posting history. MOST of my stuff is positively rated. I speak my mind sincerely in almost every case.
I am not racist. I am not bigoted. I am for fair and equitable treatment of ALL people and race and gender isn't even close to being the issue. In fact, most people would agree that the problem of "racism" is largely maintained by those who benefit the most from it and isn't nearly the problem at large that it once was.
In fact, most people would agree that the problem of "racism" is largely maintained by those who benefit the most from it and isn't nearly the problem at large that it once was.
Said as someone who's never actually experienced racism.
You go tell that to your average Arabic man who's avoided on the street by people who are afraid of them because he "looks scary". Or a black man who's sentenced to death by a court system that hands out such sentences to black men more often than it does to white men.
Sorry, racism is alive and well. Is there segregation? No. But to claim that racism just isn't a big deal anymore is simply absurd. And that's doubly true when talking about racism within law enforcement, for which there should be an absolutely zero tolerance policy.
Seriously, the comments on this article point out one thing very clearly: Your average slashdotter is a middle-to-high income white person who has no idea what the real world is actually like.
Do you know WHY things are like that? Blacks generally commit more crime, commit murder
Sorry, fail. The rates I cited are corrected for frequency of offence. The simple fact is, given a black man and a white man committing the same crime, blacks are more likely to be given the death penalty.
Arabs are, for all intents and purposes, THE terrorist ethnicity in the west.
And that justifies racism? No. It doesn't. Or do you look suspiciously at anyone who might be Irish? Yeah... didn't think so.
Hint: You average Muslim extremist most likely isn't living in your cloistered little suburb. They're busy blowing themselves up in Afghanistan or Iraq.
Until blacks and arabs/muslims do something to change the thug/terrorist stereotype by actually telling their kids to quit being a bunch of useless fucks and grow up and be somebody that does more than hurt others or be a leech on society nothing will change.
Ahh... now I get it. You're a racist son of a bitch. Fair 'nuff. But the least you could do is just admit it, rather than trying to couch it in conservative values.
A lot of people misinterpret what "freedom of expression" means.
People believe they have the write to "express" themselves as they please in the workplace. That simply isn't the case. Our rights -- our freedoms -- are protected against government interference not private interference. Your employer -- even a government office -- can silence you. There are laws for the workplace that take precedence over your rights. The law protects employees against being discriminated against or being harassed because of their ethnicity, religious beliefs, disabilities, sexual orientation, and gender. Those aren't rights, however. You don't have a right not to be harassed. You are protected by laws.
Quite simply, these officers are out of line, and have broken laws. They don't have a choice but to change their behavior. If they want to frequent this site from home in their private time that is when their right to express themselves is enforceable. However, we all know there are consequences to actions in our private lives as well. But trying to make people behave to serve their best-interest is just a futile effort at protecting "stupid."
The comments about this story are already ridiculous (search news.google.com, and blogs.google.com). Everyone thinks they know their rights, but I can tell by the comments none really know what their rights are, or what a right is.
I don't think it is clear at all that they were posting whileon the job. Where did you come to that conclusion except based on the random guess of the plaintiff? I have yet to see a shred of proof. Its dirty and mean, but not illegal.
Someone in possession of the full facts needs to exercise some judgment and if this behavior is unbecoming of a police officer, the officers should be disciplined. I would be surprised if the officers involved did not have some contractual requirement to maintain at least an appearance of impartiality.
After browsing the site in question, there doesn't seem to be any rule that states that only law enforcement officials may register and participate in the discussions. Moreover, the site used to allow registration (it's been disabled due to so many users registering over the past day, however).
While it is certainly in bad taste to have officers voicing these opinions on a forum, what is even more absurd is the lack of integrity of these lawyers to file such an insane lawsuit. Was anything illegal even committed? Also worth noting that these same lawyers are tacking the "pool kids" case. I can't help but think that perhaps that story is a similar pile of "I'm a victim" bullshit. Its sad when people abuse race, because it leads to distrust of those who are actually being discriminated against and need help.
If a man goes to a private website like say, Playboy in private and then discusses it in front of female co-workers, they may be charged with harassment. Guess what, just because its a private website, magazine, or bar doesn't mean you should repeat those thoughts or experiences or stories in front of your co-workers who could most obviously be offended.
Everyone is offended by something, by your suggestion we should all exist in a box and not speak to any other human.
If you are offended by what i say and you don't walk away, its your problem, not mine. Im really tired of all this "PC" garbage where we are expected to walk on eggshells all the time. What happened to the so called victim taking some responsibility?
Actually, when say something that's obviously offensive to someone who is required to be proximate to you for their livelihood, they can't just walk away. That's why it's generally considered merely ridiculous when someone spouts racist garbage on the street, but as soon as you bring it to the workplace, you break the law.
"Walk away" is not a possible solution when you're trapped in a squad car with some bigot.
If a man goes to a private website like say, Playboy in private and then discusses it in front of female co-workers, they may be charged with harassment.
If a woman was to go to somewhere like Playgirl then discussed it in front of male co-workers would she be equally likely to be charged with harassment? Aside from possible sexism, what if a sports fan were to discuss his/her sport in front of non fan co-workers...
That's not what the article or the summary says the suit is claiming.
The suit alleges white officers post on and moderate the privately operated site, Domelights.com, both on and off the job.
Domelights' users "often joke about the racially offensive commentary on the site... or will mention them in front of black police officers," thus creating "a racially hostile work environment," according to lawyers for the all-black Guardian Civic League, the lead plaintiff in the suit.
(emphasis mine)
So his analogy is completely right. It's like a programmer going to slashdot, at work, posting sexist comments, then joking about it in front of his female coworkers.
You're allowed to hold any idiot opinion you want in the USA. You are not allowed to express it on the job. Workplace harmony trumps freedom to be an asshole. This was settled long ago; it's a dead issue. It goes double for cops, who need both to be sensitive to the public AND to have the full confidence and support of their fellow officers.
Don't like it? Go be a cop in Saudi, where I'm sure you're allowed to be as racist as you like.
by Anonymous Coward
on Saturday July 18, @12:38PM (#28741979)
I can relate to that and I'm not even black.
I was born in Africa and got my first job in North America as a 'Token Black'. My new employer was rather surprised to see that I was white.
Since then, I have on numerous occasions been turned down for a job as soon as the employer learned that I was born in Africa.
When I mentioned to a friend that being an African American White causes trouble while job hunting, he said that I have nothing to complain about, since he is an African American White Jew...
The only solution to American racism is to start your own company.
a) A police officer owns/runs a website that sometimes hosts racist humor/statements.
b) Some police officers access this site and tell others what they saw/read there while "on the job".
c) Some police officers update the website while on the job.
d) Some police officers access/read the website while at work.
The first point (policeman running the website) is perfectly legal - assuming he isn't violating any city ordinances (no pictures while in uniform, representing himself as speaking for the department, etc.).
The Second point (quoting from the site), well, hate speech is hate speech, the source of it is immaterial - would the black cops feel better if the racist comment was being sourced from a Chris Rock concert? Bill Cosby? Police who are found to be harassing fellow officers should be punished, and I'm sure there are ways of making that happen *inside the department*.
The third and fourth points (updating the website from work and reading the website at work), well, if they are on break, and they don't use department resources (for example, they use a PDA/smartphone, not a desktop computer), what is the offense? If they are not on break, again, there are methods for punishing these infractions inside the department I'm sure.
Is there a reason the PD doesn't simply block the webiste in question? Issue a policy saying the website is not to be accessed during work hours or at anytime on police department equipment? Hate speech is already covered, I'm sure.
Racist cops..... (Score:4, Insightful)
And racist cops are news because??? Also, how is this tech news other than the fact that someone used the internet?
Re:Racist cops..... (Score:4, Interesting)
If you get into the actual facts of the story it is clear, though the summary didn't really touch on it.
At it's heart it's a question of whether a person that runs a bulletin board is responsible for what posters post, a subject of frequent commentary on slashdot.
In point of fact, it would be like calling Commander Taco a racist homophobe because of all the troll spam that's gotten posted here over the years.
Parent
Re:Racist cops..... (Score:4, Insightful)
"And racist cops are news because??? Also, how is this tech news other than the fact that someone used the internet?"
The moral of the story is that "the all-black Guardian Civic League" is A-OK.
If it was a forum of all minority officers, and they were doing the same thing to all the crackers and honkies (ie, being racist against whites) anyone complaining about it would just be "the man" and "trying to keep them down" and violating their civil rights.
It's like where I went to school. There was a black student union, a black choir and a black homecoming (run in parallel with the normal one) with their own black king and queen. "The man" didn't make these groups to segregate the whites and the blacks, the black students themselves made these organizations. Unfortunately we couldn't ever get anyone brave enough or stupid enough to try to make the white student union, choir, and homecoming.
Parent
Re:Racist cops..... (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
And you know this, how? Citation needed.
"It's like where I went to school. There was a black student union, a black choir and a black homecoming (run in parallel with the normal one) with their own black king and queen. "The man" didn't make the
Re:Racist cops..... (Score:5, Insightful)
And you know this, how? Citation needed.
Parent
Re:Racist cops..... (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem is, cops tend to be jerks no matter who they are.
Please. First, cops who abuse their power for any reason deserve to be fired. Second, a cop who's a jerk to everyone, versus a cop who's just a jerk to black people, are two very *very* different things. The former is at least fair. The latter means the law will likely be unevenly applied, and last I checked, that violated the US's equal protection laws.
And as for racism, everyone is racist to some degree. As evidenced by it we target marketing to certain ethnic groups, fill out ethnic information on census forms, etc.
Holy shit... you aren't seriously trying to draw an equivalence between denigrating someone based on their race, and targeting marketing at them based on cultural differences, are you? Because, frankly, that's fucking absurd. Referring to ethnically-target marketing as racism makes the term utterly meaningless.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Racist cops..... (Score:5, Insightful)
First, cops who abuse their power for any reason deserve to be fired.
That's great. But there are a couple issues:
1) The people responsible for firing them are also police, and police like most any other group of workers who must rely on eachother in life-death situations... they get close knit.
2) The type of people that seek to become "cops" is skewed towards power hungry jerks in the first place. So you are picking from a pool that is self-selecting towards the type of people you don't want.
This isn't uncommon... some jobs are best performed by people who don't aspire to the job. From police work to politics to jury duty. Indeed, it seems that any job that gives 'power' is best performed by people who don't aspire to power. But naturally people who do aspire for power will actively seek out those jobs... and then do them poorly.
Parent
i woudln't do this. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Wait wait... so a black cop should turn a blind eye to racism in the work place because, otherwise, he may be *risking his life*?? Wow... apparently law enforcement is an even more corrupt, disgusting place than I ever imagined.
Solution (Score:4, Insightful)
Private ownership is private and government ownership is government. Sounds like a simple case of plantiffs going after the deepest pockets and those most easily controlled through political and media manipulation.
Re: (Score:2)
Private ownership is private and government ownership is government. Sounds like a simple case of plantiffs going after the deepest pockets and those most easily controlled through political and media manipulation.
And what happens when government employees bring "private ownership" to work in a racist attitude?
Oh yeah, you don't want to address the actual issue here, just quote one small piece and dismiss it entirely.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Screw'em! (Score:5, Insightful)
We have had this sickening pattern of pandering to groups who take the most offense to things. Women in the workplace and black people in the work place. Neither are typically "minorities" and if/when the tables are turned and a group was making "white" or "man" jokes, white men would likely not care at all.
It's time to say "toughen up!!!" It's not like they are in fear of anything. There will always be something to offend people if you dig deep enough. So stop digging and you won't find things. There will always be aspects of humanity and society that seems annoying and offensive. When people take those things too far, you end up living with Taliban rule. What is "too far"? I don't know. But black and female people have long since expired their period of needing special treatment and are fully equal in opportunity and respect as far as I can tell. It's time we all treat each other equally badly.
Re: (Score:2)
We have had this sickening pattern of pandering to groups who take the most offense to things. Women in the workplace and black people in the work place. Neither are typically "minorities" and if/when the tables are turned and a group was making "white" or "man" jokes, white men would likely not care at all.
It's time to say "toughen up!!!" It's not like they are in fear of anything.
Actually, men have also files harassment claims, mostly for man on man. I guess they should have just toughened up as well.
The point is that this type of behavior in a workplace is simply wrong; and employers havea duty to take action to prevent or stop it.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I would argue that men filing complaints on men is typically people taking advantage of the system that was built to foster equality in the workplace. And that is yet another problem resulting from the "fixes" put into place.
Women in the workplace and black people in the professional work place "were" new things and needed policies and even laws to make the transition less painful and unpleasant. But it was a //transition// that has been made. All these claims simply aren't needed the way they once were.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I was a waiter at TGIFridays in '97-'98. I had worked there for a year when a new manager came on duty, I'm 5'10", he's 6'4" and the first day I worked with him he "choked" me to the point where I fell on my knees in front of him in a particularly unnerving way. He had a fairly creepy smile on his face while this was happening. This was a "joke" you see? It was supposed to somehow be funny. I was "lovingly" abused as a child (by a Chicago cop, no less), an
Re:Screw'em! (Score:5, Insightful)
Women in the workplace and black people in the professional work place "were" new things and needed policies and even laws to make the transition less painful and unpleasant. But it was a //transition// that has been made. All these claims simply aren't needed the way they once were.
Too bad you haven't made the transition to HTML.
Snarky asides aside, if you think that white males, any women, and any blacks are equal in the workplace, think again. And if you aren't incensed when your tax dollars are spent to support racism (cops are allegedly using this site during work hours, and the racism is spilling over into the workplace) then you're Part Of The Problem.
But if it's jokes and crap like that? Forget it! There will always be groups and cliques and things that make some people uncomfortable.
The police should be held to a higher standard, as should any government employee, not least because individual citizens don't get to choose where the money goes. Racism begets racism, racist thought begets racist thought, if they're creating this environment amongst themselves, how are they treating The People?
Parent
Re:Screw'em! (Score:5, Insightful)
We have had this sickening pattern of pandering to groups who take the most offense to things.
We pander because those same groups have a habit of hiring lawyers and having laws passed to "protect" them.
... and we both feel precisely the way you do. Granted, she wasn't born here, she's African by birth. In spite of that (or, more likely, because of that, she grew up in some damn tough environments) she believes that a lot of people in this country just need to deal with the fact that life can be harsh. Fact is, some people are assholes. Period, end-of-statement. Wasting more than a millisecond of neuron time over that is a complete waste.
My girlfriend is black, I'm not
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
The laws ARE deficient. Nobody should have to endure racist and sexist jokes and commentary at work.
No, they shouldn't. And in this specific case, because their employer is the gov't itself, they should have an internal complaint procedure. It should not involve the courts, and for example if they were working at a grocery store instead of a police department then their only guaranteed resolution would be to quit. At will employment. All these laws to "protect" employees taint the marketplace. If I want to
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
All these laws to "protect" employees taint the marketplace. If I want to hire somebody to haul live electrical cable around while I smoke cigarettes and blow smoke in their face and an albino midget yells racially crass jokes at them, then that's the job and if they want it we can come to an agreement on pay rates.
Fortunately, people with better business sense than you passed laws to prevent this, ostensibly because there's no business reason for you to be blowing smoke in someone's face while an albino midget yells racially crass jokes at them, and perhaps by avoiding these things the job of hauling live electrical cable around would be safer to both the employee and the public at large.
Also, surprisingly enough, business owners have discovered that treating their employees with dignity and respect tends to improve
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
It's not okay to call you a "cunt" outside of work, but outside of work I'm not required to be in your presence. Outside of work I can walk away. I can refuse to socialize with you. At work, I don't have that freedom, at least not without suffering for it. Why should I have to give up my job to escape your abuse?
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Re:Screw'em! (Score:5, Insightful)
We have had this sickening pattern of pandering to groups who take the most offense to things. Women in the workplace and black people in the work place. Neither are typically "minorities" and if/when the tables are turned and a group was making "white" or "man" jokes, white men would likely not care at all.
Using women or blacks as an example and how they're allowed to make jokes that others aren't is a specious argument; Two wrongs don't make a right. The issue is that some people are failing to keep things professional. The expectation when you show up to work is that you work. Everything else is secondary to that, and if your color commentary is interfering with my (or anyone else's) work, it needs to stop. It's just that simple. You don't have a right to be offensive. That said, you're right insofar as some people overreact--just because someone else is a douche doesn't mean you have to sink to their level. A polite reminder or a memo is sufficient in 95% of all cases to correct the behavior. You don't even have to involve a manager most of the time. People are dumb, they make mistakes; Don't get worked up about it. For the remaining 5%, we have laws like this. On the clock, everything you do should be related to your job. But if you can't do that, at least have the decency to be mindful of the company you're keeping and making sure they are okay with your side conversation. It's just... being a decent human being.
That said, police work consists of piss poor pay, long hours, high stress, a decent risk of getting a bullet in your ass, and it's a thankless profession. Like EMTs, most emergency services personnel have a dry and/or odd sense of humor that others find morbid, offensive, or downright rude. A lot of them smoke or "self-medicate" to cope. I think it's only natural that they'd need an outlet to express their work frustrations outside of work. And once it leaves the workplace, it's fair game, first amendment and everything. What you do on your own time is your own business, even if it is offensive and derogatory towards your coworkers. As a woman, I expect men to make sexually crass comments when I'm not around. I also know some of them will go home and smoke pot, do drugs, eat hot dogs and hamburgers until their heart explodes... and you know what? I'm okay with that. Just keep it away from me.
People need to be mindful of the social spaces they occupy. I don't go to the bar dressed in a low-cut dress and then act outraged when some drunk creepy guy (or girl) hits on me. That's what bars are for. If the same person shows up drunk at the grocery store when I'm dressed in nothing more than jeans and a hoodie and does the same thing he's playing with fire. Likewise, showing up on an electronic forum for inner-city cops is likely to be full of racist, sexist, and every other kind of -ist and -ism out there, not because those people are somehow inherently evil, but because they deal with the worst examples of those groups on long shifts day after day.
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Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Not at all. If women can make sexist jokes that a man couldn't, it's a double standard, which is what we're trying to avoid.
Do you exercise any care at all in what you read or are you in such a hurry that you stomp on other people in your efforts to attain the moral high ground? Go and read my post again and quote where in there I said I supported making sexist jokes at work, let alone double standards.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Read through my posting history. MOST of my stuff is positively rated. I speak my mind sincerely in almost every case.
I am not racist. I am not bigoted. I am for fair and equitable treatment of ALL people and race and gender isn't even close to being the issue. In fact, most people would agree that the problem of "racism" is largely maintained by those who benefit the most from it and isn't nearly the problem at large that it once was.
Re:Screw'em! (Score:4, Insightful)
In fact, most people would agree that the problem of "racism" is largely maintained by those who benefit the most from it and isn't nearly the problem at large that it once was.
Said as someone who's never actually experienced racism.
You go tell that to your average Arabic man who's avoided on the street by people who are afraid of them because he "looks scary". Or a black man who's sentenced to death by a court system that hands out such sentences to black men more often than it does to white men.
Sorry, racism is alive and well. Is there segregation? No. But to claim that racism just isn't a big deal anymore is simply absurd. And that's doubly true when talking about racism within law enforcement, for which there should be an absolutely zero tolerance policy.
Seriously, the comments on this article point out one thing very clearly: Your average slashdotter is a middle-to-high income white person who has no idea what the real world is actually like.
Parent
Re:Screw'em! (Score:4, Insightful)
Do you know WHY things are like that? Blacks generally commit more crime, commit murder
Sorry, fail. The rates I cited are corrected for frequency of offence. The simple fact is, given a black man and a white man committing the same crime, blacks are more likely to be given the death penalty.
Arabs are, for all intents and purposes, THE terrorist ethnicity in the west.
And that justifies racism? No. It doesn't. Or do you look suspiciously at anyone who might be Irish? Yeah... didn't think so.
Hint: You average Muslim extremist most likely isn't living in your cloistered little suburb. They're busy blowing themselves up in Afghanistan or Iraq.
Until blacks and arabs/muslims do something to change the thug/terrorist stereotype by actually telling their kids to quit being a bunch of useless fucks and grow up and be somebody that does more than hurt others or be a leech on society nothing will change.
Ahh... now I get it. You're a racist son of a bitch. Fair 'nuff. But the least you could do is just admit it, rather than trying to couch it in conservative values.
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The Solution Here (Score:5, Insightful)
A lot of people misinterpret what "freedom of expression" means.
People believe they have the write to "express" themselves as they please in the workplace. That simply isn't the case. Our rights -- our freedoms -- are protected against government interference not private interference. Your employer -- even a government office -- can silence you. There are laws for the workplace that take precedence over your rights. The law protects employees against being discriminated against or being harassed because of their ethnicity, religious beliefs, disabilities, sexual orientation, and gender. Those aren't rights, however. You don't have a right not to be harassed. You are protected by laws.
Quite simply, these officers are out of line, and have broken laws. They don't have a choice but to change their behavior. If they want to frequent this site from home in their private time that is when their right to express themselves is enforceable. However, we all know there are consequences to actions in our private lives as well. But trying to make people behave to serve their best-interest is just a futile effort at protecting "stupid."
The comments about this story are already ridiculous (search news.google.com, and blogs.google.com). Everyone thinks they know their rights, but I can tell by the comments none really know what their rights are, or what a right is.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
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I wasn't aware the Constitution nor the Bill of Rights addressed having a "respectful workplace".
We should all expect one, and we should all strive to make it that way. And most HR offices will have policies about it. But it is not a "right".
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Ah, but what if I put the lower-precedence right in parentheses?
See, that's how they get you.
Yeah.. (Score:2)
Less QQ, more pew pew
judgement (Score:2)
It's a public site... (Score:3, Informative)
After browsing the site in question, there doesn't seem to be any rule that states that only law enforcement officials may register and participate in the discussions. Moreover, the site used to allow registration (it's been disabled due to so many users registering over the past day, however).
Cry me a river (Score:4, Insightful)
Seems pretty obvious (Score:5, Insightful)
If a man goes to a private website like say, Playboy in private and then discusses it in front of female co-workers, they may be charged with harassment. Guess what, just because its a private website, magazine, or bar doesn't mean you should repeat those thoughts or experiences or stories in front of your co-workers who could most obviously be offended.
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Everyone is offended by something, by your suggestion we should all exist in a box and not speak to any other human.
If you are offended by what i say and you don't walk away, its your problem, not mine. Im really tired of all this "PC" garbage where we are expected to walk on eggshells all the time. What happened to the so called victim taking some responsibility?
Re:Seems pretty obvious (Score:4, Insightful)
Actually, when say something that's obviously offensive to someone who is required to be proximate to you for their livelihood, they can't just walk away. That's why it's generally considered merely ridiculous when someone spouts racist garbage on the street, but as soon as you bring it to the workplace, you break the law.
"Walk away" is not a possible solution when you're trapped in a squad car with some bigot.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
If a woman was to go to somewhere like Playgirl then discussed it in front of male co-workers would she be equally likely to be charged with harassment? Aside from possible sexism, what if a sports fan were to discuss his/her sport in front of non fan co-workers...
Re:Seems pretty obvious (Score:4, Insightful)
That's not what the article or the summary says the suit is claiming.
(emphasis mine)
So his analogy is completely right. It's like a programmer going to slashdot, at work, posting sexist comments, then joking about it in front of his female coworkers.
Parent
How much are they asking? (Score:3, Funny)
$23,148,855,308,184,500?
Fire their asses. Simple as that. (Score:5, Insightful)
You're allowed to hold any idiot opinion you want in the USA. You are not allowed to express it on the job. Workplace harmony trumps freedom to be an asshole. This was settled long ago; it's a dead issue. It goes double for cops, who need both to be sensitive to the public AND to have the full confidence and support of their fellow officers.
Don't like it? Go be a cop in Saudi, where I'm sure you're allowed to be as racist as you like.
The solution (Score:2)
Make sure police officers in the rest of world get to know the site as well? [wikipedia.org]
I can relate to that... (Score:5, Interesting)
Isn't this already covered by existing rules? (Score:3, Insightful)
The assertions are that:
a) A police officer owns/runs a website that sometimes hosts racist humor/statements.
b) Some police officers access this site and tell others what they saw/read there while "on the job".
c) Some police officers update the website while on the job.
d) Some police officers access/read the website while at work.
The first point (policeman running the website) is perfectly legal - assuming he isn't violating any city ordinances (no pictures while in uniform, representing himself as speaking for the department, etc.).
The Second point (quoting from the site), well, hate speech is hate speech, the source of it is immaterial - would the black cops feel better if the racist comment was being sourced from a Chris Rock concert? Bill Cosby? Police who are found to be harassing fellow officers should be punished, and I'm sure there are ways of making that happen *inside the department*.
The third and fourth points (updating the website from work and reading the website at work), well, if they are on break, and they don't use department resources (for example, they use a PDA/smartphone, not a desktop computer), what is the offense? If they are not on break, again, there are methods for punishing these infractions inside the department I'm sure.
Is there a reason the PD doesn't simply block the webiste in question? Issue a policy saying the website is not to be accessed during work hours or at anytime on police department equipment? Hate speech is already covered, I'm sure.
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How about not mentioning the joke at all? Or would that be joke discrimination?