Microsoft Agrees To EU Browser Ballot Screen 438
An anonymous reader sends in coverage from Ars Technica of Microsoft's capitulation to the EU, after European regulators requested that Redmond bundle multiple browsers on new PCs. "Microsoft has decided that the last thing it needs in this economy is some combination of the following: fines, legal bills, and a delay of Windows 7. It has offered to adopt the European Union's preferred solution for browser competition: a browser selector screen at startup."
Wimps (Score:5, Funny)
Go down fighting!
Re:Wimps (Score:4, Funny)
The correct quote is: In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is.
If you're going to bastardize it, at least make it something elegant: The difference between theory and practice is often much smaller in theory than in practice.
Or even just remove the redundant part of your own version: The difference between theory and practice is that in theory, there is no difference.
For Christ sake, you sound like a retard trying to explain quantum mechanics. "Cows are black and white except when they're brown, in which case they are not black and white because they're brown, unless you put them in a box and then you don't know what color it is unless you open the box which will reveal the color that the cow is, and it will either be black and white or else brown unless it could just be black, or else dead, but only because you looked at it. Anyway, cows have fur..."
Re:Wimps (Score:4, Insightful)
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I think they should have just been made to do what every other company does. Not a big M$ fan but who decides which browsers get to be on the ballot? This ain't 1996 and it's too late now. I would like to see more interoperability from the M$ servers and the clients. Like if you have a Windows server you can't afford to replace but want to replace your clients then you have to kludge things to get that to work. This really locks in small businesses to using their total solution. I guess Apple is the same in
In before the morons (Score:3, Insightful)
But but but......Apple and KDE and GNOME and Google don't have to bundle other browsers so the EU sucks and just wants to hurt a successful MERKIN company!!!!!
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Apple and KDE are valid comparisons. Google would be soon too. They're just not as easy a target, nor as deep pocketed. How the EU can justify forcing MS to do it but not the others, I'm not sure, except by saying "MS has a larger market share." To which I say: So fucking what. A vertical monopoly is still a monopoly.
Re:In before the morons (Score:5, Insightful)
I'd mod you up if I had points, I don't really get it either. It's a good thing if anti-competetive behaviour is punished but the whole browser story really is beating a dead horse. The EU is trailing reality by a few years again, just like when they forced Microsoft to release a Windows-N without Windows Media Player. All the poisoning Microsoft could have done to the market when it comes to media players is already in the past. There really isn't anything stopping you from installing alternate media players or browsers in WIndows, forcing file associations or whatever. As much as I'd love to see the world move away from Windows and Microsoft, I really don't see the point in making their life hard over media players or browsers right now.
I expect the EU to be fining Microsoft for deliberately screwing up standardization of office document formats... In 2020...
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a) Biggest
b) Previous offend
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Actually, Microsoft has been violating competition law to this day.
So what you are saying that breaking the law should have no consequences?
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Are you saying that criminals shouldn't be punished just because it was a long time ago? I agree that the remedy is probably pointless since it won't really deter MS from future misbehaviour and it won't remove the applications barrier to entry that keeps them where they are, but to say MS should get off scot-free just because things have changed is a bit of a slap in the face to those companies and individuals that were hurt by MS's illegal behaviour.
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Not at all. Their violations of the law have continued to this day.
Yeah, but not because Microsoft isn't breaking the law and abusing the market, as Mozilla points out [mozillazine.org]:
"When the only real competition comes from a not for profit open source organization that depends on volunteers for almost half of its work product and nearly all of its marketing and distribution, while more tha
Re:In before the morons (Score:4, Interesting)
Oh yes, bleeding-edge W3C specs. Like CSS level 2 [w3.org], which was released in... 1998! Yes, I'm aware of CSS 2.1. I'm aware MS supposedly supports it. Yet 99% of the time, IE (in its various incarnations, this includes IE8 as well) is the only browser that gives me headaches when developing cross-browser sites. I really wish it would die a already.
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perhaps MS should create a system GUI similar to synaptic that doesn't need a browser to download software like pretty much every GNU/Linux distro in use does. That way they can claim one more feature and be able to comply with the EU without bundling software. Each browser that wants to have a shot at it only needs to supply MS with a repo address and maybe a way of verifying software integrity [md5 at the least]
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I think the real gripe with MS bundling IE was that 1) upgrades often force it to be the default overriding the user 2) it can not be completely removed 3) windows update and IE [the reason for windizupdate's existence] I'm pretty sure most of the problem could be dealt with if MS 1) allowed the complete removal of varying kinds of bundled software 2) offer the user to download alternatives before anything else
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Re:In before the morons (Score:4, Insightful)
MS aren't a successful merkin company. This [merkinworld.com] is a successful merkin company.
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> I have a hard time fathoming why Microsoft would have to do this but not Apple...
Because, for now, Microsoft is a huge, damaging monopoly that destroys competition, choice, and freedom. Apple is a tiny, non-damaging, single-area monopoly (for now). If Apple were to do the same thing (be forced to have no default browser), it wouldn't change anything. Plus, Apple doesn't design the OS around the browser like MS does.
But requiring MS to do it- well, that means 90% of the market will have a browser cho
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You're arguing that this is putatively a punishment rather than a compliance enforcement. That doesn't seem to be the case according to the disposition of the EU which is that to avoid further fines, Microsoft needs to comply with the EU's desire that PC users be given the opportunity to download multiple browsers; ergo, everyone should have to do this.
Hell, it's ridiculous to argue that they shouldn't since, supposedly, people are aggrieved with Microsoft because they denied people choice - yet arguing ag
Re:In before the morons (Score:4, Informative)
i dont think you get the point of antitrust legislation. It is not to set standards for all companies, it is to prevent massive companies from abusing their advantage to stifle competition. small companies are allowed to do pretty much whatever the hell they want, as simple market forces will determine their success. however, companies with a large enough market share gain the ability to control their own market forces and destroy all competition, hence the need for antitrust legislation to level the playing field back out. the reason the EU does not require Apple, Google, or KDE to do the same is simple, those companies don't have a monopoly on the OS market.
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Or because Apple, Mozilla and Opera are trying really hard to make browsers that work well together and follow the standards, while Microsoft is doing everything it can to make IE incompatible with standards and other browsers..
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>>>I have a hard time fathoming why Microsoft would have to do this but not Apple...
For the same reason why the U.S. Government broke-apart AT&T but did not touch other telephone companies like Sprint or MCI. (Hint: AT&T had a near-monopoly and so too does MS.)
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What has American 'nationalism' got to do with equality under the law? If the point is that Operating System vendors should supply their users with a choice of browsers during installation, why would Apple get a free pass?
What has your opinion of what is or is not 'crap' got to do with what is right? Personally, I couldn't care less if Microsoft has to offer other browsers, I only use IE8 at work, I use Mozilla at home, but what's good for the Goose should be good for the Gander, yes/no?
Re:In before the morons (Score:4, Informative)
Nope. And it's really quite simple to understand why.
Microsoft, according to the EU findings (so whether we agree or not is moot), is a monopoly. That means they get to play by different rules to ensure that the free market continues to exist despite the monopoly. In the past, the US has forced companies to break up to break the monopoly, so forcing a browser choice seems relatively minor.
Further, as a deterrent to further illegal actions (which, again, are only illegal because they're a monopoly - different rules and all that), there must be some sort of punishment. To be honest, forcing this seems like a hand-slap more than a punishment: the horse has already left the barn, why are they locking it now?
Should Apple or Ubuntu ever manage to get an effective monopoly, then the same rules would apply to them. In the meantime, these rules only apply to Microsoft.
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Re:In before the morons (Score:5, Informative)
Google is [europa.eu], so Apple [europa.eu] and so does Intel [europa.eu]
Note that having a monopoly is not illegal - abusing it is. The fines and other actions taken against different companies reflect the extent to which they abused monopolies.
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Was.
Force standards compliance -or- force freedom of choice. Choose one.
IE will still dominate (Score:5, Insightful)
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At the very least it will get them on a current version of IE. IE8 is actually pretty good. MS finally started improving their browser once they had some serious competition, and that's good for everyone regardless of what you use. Outdated IE users are bad for the whole internet.
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At the very least it will get them on a current version of IE. IE8 is actually pretty good. MS finally started improving their browser once they had some serious competition, and that's good for everyone regardless of what you use. Outdated IE users are bad for the whole internet.
I don't mean to offend, really; but speaking as someone who does "web stuff" for a living - the only people that really believe "IE8 is actually pretty good" are people who don't know very much about what's possible even in the currently-defined HTML and CSS standards, or those that have never used anything except Internet Explorer. IE8 may be incrementally better than IE7; but Microsoft has a significant distance to cover before its browser is anywhere near feature-competitive with the competition.
I freely
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At the very least it will get them on a current version of IE. IE8 is actually pretty good. MS finally started improving their browser once they had some serious competition, and that's good for everyone regardless of what you use. Outdated IE users are bad for the whole internet.
I don't mean to offend, really; but speaking as someone who does "web stuff" for a living - the only people that really believe "IE8 is actually pretty good" are people who don't know very much about what's possible even in the currently-defined HTML and CSS standards, or those that have never used anything except Internet Explorer.
When I say IE8 is pretty good (or even "great") it's simply compared to previous versions of IE. I recently had a mini-nerdgasm when I fixed an IE7 bug in our dashboard application by inserting a browser check followed by a redirect to the IE8 download page ;-)
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But you're right. IE is still lacking in other areas, notably in the DOM implementation. Does IE8 even support HTML 2.0 link elements' navigational properties (table of contents, previous, next, up,...) yet?
Does any browser support this? I've never seen it in use.
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Perhaps I should upgrade then.
I'm currently using IE7, and compared to Firefox it's a horrible browser. It frequently freezes for 5-10 second intervals, and also my google searches are being hijacked by some adware that takes me to an entirely different search engine.
When people tell me "Explorer is not bad" my mouth literally drops open. It. Is. Bad.
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And you tolerade adware being on your computer longer than the time it takes to find a removal tool? Egahds. I don't know how you'd manage to live with the computer equivalent of a brain slug attached to your head.
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All right, that's enough. I'm cutting myself off: no more posting for me today.
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Why waste your time removing it if you can just not use it?
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I'm currently using IE7, [. . .] It. Is. Bad.
I hate to ask this, but... why are you still using it?
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Work, I'm guessing.
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Well it does have the word "Internet" in the name
so I suppose if someone just glances over and has no clue they would click on IE
and then the blue E icon is synonymous with internet for a lot of people
Re:IE will still dominate (Score:5, Funny)
I'm sure Microsoft is hiring engineers from Diebold to implement the ballot. No matter what you click on you will have a 90% chance of getting IE. The interesting thing is that there will only be a 90% chance of installing IE if you click on IE.
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well, it clearly depends on where you are. I am living in the US for 6 month and I grew up in France. I would say that Firefox has a huge market share in France (To give an idea, I would say something like 70% of computer I looked at used firefox). I was petrified when I saw Firefox was almost unknown in the US.
certainly people will have a different experience, but I really believe there is a difference. Have other people noticed something similar ?
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Why? I was the same way towards IE cause I was used to it being piece of crap, but the latest version is not so bad and if people like it better let them use it. The main reasons I use Firefox are the few add-ons that I really couldn't live without (which is why it's particularly annoying that some of them break with each new release) but if they don't need them what's the big deal.
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I wonder what choices they will pick? (Score:3, Funny)
I would select (if I was them)
IE8
safari (the first release for windows not the most recent)
firefox 2 or maybe even a pre firefox name chanage release
elinks
and konq
Re:I wonder what choices they will pick? (Score:4, Interesting)
If I was them (and I'm a nice person, so this comment is written purely as an exercise in evil :) I'd do it like they so the search provider option:
Choose your internet browser:
1. Microsoft Internet Explorer, optimised for Windows 7 (tm). Microsoft recommends IE8 for super-fast and safe internet surfing.
2. A different browser. Note that Microsoft corporation has no control over other browser's safety, speed or features. Packages listed may not be as suitable for Windows 7 (tm) as other browsers, users may use one of these at their own risk.
option 2 takes you to a list of alternatives, with another option to go with IE8 (of course)
Re:I wonder what choices they will pick? (Score:4, Insightful)
Actually, looking at what they do with IE8, I think that you're almost right. To be accurate, what (IMO) is most likely is that when you install 7 you'll get a dialog box that says something like:
They'll make option 2 intimidating and a total PITA that most people will pick option 1 (which, of course, installs ie8.)
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Whoosh.
Google Chrome (Score:4, Interesting)
Ballot screen? (Score:2)
I (sort of) understand making them not tie IE to windows. But actually using MS resources to provide other browsers?
Is MS now on the hook to provide the source code for the open source browsers in this bundle? Since they are providing the binaries, I'd say yes.
Re:Ballot screen? (Score:4, Interesting)
> "OK, Joe...which engine do you want in your new Chevy? A Chevy, Ford, Toyota, Chrysler, Nissan, or Honda engine?"
If Chevy had 90% of the market, were declared a damaging, predatory monopoly, and you could load a new engine as easily as a browser...
sure, why not?
Why not OEMs? (Score:5, Insightful)
European regulators requested that Redmond bundle multiple browsers on new PCs
Excuse me? I can understand requesting IE to be unbundled, but telling MS to bundle other browsers is just stupid. Let the OEMs do that. I hope the summary isn't having a rare moment of accuracy.
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Good idea for Microsoft. (Score:4, Insightful)
Someone on another forum brought this up. Microsoft should offer a list of about 100 browsers in the EU version of Windows. Literally 100. Put IE first and then put the rest in random order.
Then tell the EU to put that in their pipes and smoke on it.
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Yeah, and maybe add Mosaic after IE. We don't want to leave that out you know.
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Its dead-simple to not only make a browser based on Microsofts rendering engine using Visual Basic 6, its also simple to make an installer.
Drop the control on a form, run the package and deployment wizard, and bobs your uncle.
There is your choice right there.
"But but but.. thats all the same rendering engine!"
Really? So one browser from each rendering engine.. eh?
Internet Explorer, some noname webkit, and Opera? One of each, right
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Well, if you include all the specific version numbers..
New standard (Score:2)
They'll solve the problem of "how do you download a browser without first having a browser installed?" by providing a minimal front-end whose only purpose is to download a browser:
To allow this, each browser will need to provide a stable, standard URL that will download the latest version of its browser. Hopefully this can be standardized enough that other OS's can use
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More likely they'll include a semi-recent binary for the installation of each, and assume that the browser will do a fair job of updating itself after it's installed and being used.
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I don't think you can make the assumption that an internet connection is available during the time of install so a binary will be needed in the Windows image.
Of course all the browsers included in the ballot should auto update themselves on first run.
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I would hope they would anyway. Firefox always checks, and I assume Opera, Chrome, etc. do too. Probably IE is the only one that doesn't..
I can just picture Ballmer's face (Score:2)
Utterly stupid (Score:4, Insightful)
If it's simply going to be the top 5 or whatever based on current market share then this is simply cementing the status quo rather than helping competition and innovation, and if any any every browser gets a look in then what's to stop SuperSpywareBrowser2009 from appearing in the choices?
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Actually you had it right, it is the top 5 browsers. From the AP [ap.org]
Why the top 5, and not the top 6 or 4? I'd have to assume it's because there are 5 major browsers: IE, Firefox, Safari, Chrome, and Opera. This fits all of them, and it's likely that either Chrome or Opera is in the #5 slot, so anything le
Time to write a browser... (Score:2)
Time to write a browser (well, do a quick fork of Firefox...) where it defaults to a monetized home page, and then try to get on the list.
Expect to see 200 "new" browsers available shortly...
Imagine these choices (Score:4, Insightful)
Yeratu
Swallow
Tires
I made these up of course, but to your average user, that's exactly what they'll see when they see:
Internet Explorer
Firefox
Opera
Chrome
What browser do you think they will choose? Hmmmm?
Re:Imagine these choices (Score:4, Insightful)
But if it is
Internet Explorer
Mozilla Firefox
Opera
Google Chrome
A lot of people will go for the fourth option. They have heard of google.
Re:Imagine these choices (Score:4, Funny)
Ah but Opera will rename their browser to Recommended Option or Select This To Continue.
Re:Imagine these choices (Score:5, Funny)
Could we give them an "I'm Feeling Lucky" option?
My fellow Americans (Score:3, Interesting)
Please stop being a bunch of douches, asshats, and twats.
"Oh, those nasty Euros are only doing this because they don't like successful American companies!"
Give it a BREAK!!
Only the most fanatical of the fanbois can deny that Microsoft is a monopoly. And, only half of those can do so with a straight face. The US government was first to say so, the EU made the same finging, and any homo sapient with an IQ larger than the number of digits on his hands has to be able to see that.
If AT&T could be broken up years ago, there is absolutely no reason that Microsoft can't be broken up as well. Short of being dismantled into several smaller companies, they will abide by court rulings around the world, wherever they do business. That is the nature of being multinational, after all.
And, no, Microsoft is NOT an American company. No matter what it says on paper, Microsoft has offices and subsidiaries around the world. They are multinational, and they take advantage of every loophole that exists in international taxation, money transfer, etc. Microsoft has all but dictated terms to national governments - "take it or leave it" deals.
All the whining and excuse making on Microsoft's behalf makes me sick. And, whining that the world is picking on an "American" company is worse than anything. Microsoft needs to be put in their place, once and for all.
Screw 'em all. If Microsoft were all that successful, they would be making all the money they want, and every little peasant among us would be HAPPY to give them all the money they wanted. They've spent a couple decades alienating people, and making enemies, by one means or another. Let them pay the price, and stop whining.
Re:Changes nothing (Score:5, Funny)
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Yeah. They'll need to audit transparency of the icons, attractiveness, icon size, order, spacing between them (wouldn't want to let them offer IE first, then 10 pages lower show Firefox and other choices), the textual description of the browsers' capabilities to ensure IE doesn't sound overly attractive, etc...
It's like a bureaucrat's wet dream!
Re:Stupid people will still be stupid (Score:5, Funny)
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Armageddon!
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Pat Buchanan would still be the better browser.
Re:Stupid people will still be stupid (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Stupid people will still be stupid (Score:5, Funny)
Microsoft Porn explorer: Where even looking can get you infected.
Mozilla PornFox: For furries
Google Chrome & latex: BSDM
Opera: It's not porn, it's art.
Apple Safari: Gay and transsexual.
SeaMonkey: Watersports
AOL Explorer: MILFs
Dillo: Masturbation
Netscape Porn Navigator: Necrophilia.
Re:MS just needs to pull out. (Score:5, Insightful)
You do realize that if they pull out of Europe then Europe will have little choice but to move to alternative OSs right?
The last thing that Microsoft wants to do is push a large market to (possibly free) alternatives.
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Yeah, but forcing such a large area to find an alternative is going to be a headache. Not to mention most alternative sources are going to have a bigger problem with compatibility.
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Don't underestimate human behaviour. I think it's pretty save to say that if Microsoft gives us Europeans the finger, we're going to be pretty pissed and we'll be looking for the most hurtful alternative we can find just out of spite. Yeah, we're funny that way.
What has me stumped, though, is this negative attitude toward this idea. Perhaps my memory is just failing me, but I thought this was exactly what Slashdotters were crying out for just weeks ago when they said they would sell 7 without any browser at
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Here's one American wishing Europe would do just that- find that something that is a "most hurtful alternative" as you put it.
Hint- it already exists... it is FOSS (Linux, BSD, FireFox, OpenOffice, Apache, etc, etc). You would be doing the whole world a favor. Take the billions of euros funneled to MS each year and funnel it into FOSS organizations/projects instead. You will end up with more control, security, and choices while ultimately spending much, much less. And those resulting improvements in FOS
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You're a genius. (Score:5, Insightful)
Seriously, Microsoft should just pull out of an economy of $18.394 trillion GDP? While in the meantime, the governments involved would most likely invoke the "national security" clauses in copyright treaties to allow piracy of Windows and Office, whilst simultaneously launching accelerated projects to switch to Linux asap? What do you think this would do to the MS stock price? And why should any corporation have the right to violate the laws of democratic nations anyway? Microsoft is not the only corporation to have been fined by the E.U. [slashdot.org]
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While a risky move, Microsoft just needs to pull out of the EU and say "Piss off"
Lolwut? Why yes, Microsoft should pull out of the world's largest market, probably cutting their revenue by about 30%, just to stand up to some pushy EU bureaucrats, that makes good business sense!
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Why on Earth would Microsoft do that? To prove a point? Because Microsoft is prideful? Because the EU hurt Microsoft's feelings?
If they "pull out" two things could happen: either the EU would switch to alternatives (OpenOffice, Mac, Linux, etc.) or they would just make a decree to the effect of "corporations that refuse to follow our laws are not subject to copyright protections" and use MS products without paying license fees. Both of those o
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I'd like to see MS do that, it'd give things to talk about for months.
Do you realize how monumentally stupid would that be? You're really suggesting that MS should throw away half its market share, lay off thousands of employees (disrupting projects in the US), and liquidate huge amounts of inventory over an issue that's a tiny thing in comparison with the consequences of pulling out?
If they did that, the shareholders would crucify whoever was responsible.
Europe wouldn't be that affected. Apple, Red Hat and
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>>>they should have the right to bundle their browser, [word processor, and spreadsheet] with their OS. It's not like they are keeping others from being installed.
>>>
This is the kind of thinking that drove once-number one Netscape, WordPerfect, and Lotus 1-2-3 into bankruptcy. Now were're stuck with Microshit Office as the "standard". That's like being stuck with Blurry VHS instead of a High Def DVR.
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It's not like they are keeping other browsers from being installed.
What you say is true, now; but if you're older than a teenager you'll remember that in the 1990s Microsoft on a couple occasions apparently did sabotage both Netscape Navigator and Apple Quicktime.
The EU is acting based on Microsoft's history as a convicted monopolist, not based on the company's current behavior.
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While a risky move, Microsoft just needs to pull out of the EU and say "Piss off"
Wait, hold on. Why is this modded +5 Insightful? Did everyone on /. collectively go insane? It seems too obvious to me that pulling out of the EU would be one of the poorest business decisions ever.
Seriously, they should have the right to bundle their browser with their OS. It's not like they are keeping other browsers from being installed.
No, they shouldn't have the right to do that. That's the whole point. You didn't give any valid reason to support your opposing view.
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Oh, you mean the same as the perspective of.....
"Oh look, I can't use this MS Windows computer at all without reading a f*ing, 20 screen EULA in tiny fonts and then agree to it?"
But you are right in such that both will be meaningless to the majority of users.
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Why are you sticking up for the interests of a giant, faceless corporation over those of people just like yourself? The EU's requirements are quite reasonable. When your market domination becomes as complete as Microsoft's, and your product becomes critical to the functioning of the modern world, you ought to expect to be regulated more like a public utility than Joe's Flash Games GmBH.
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What do you mean? Rich megalomaniacs are always exempt from the law!
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Cosign.
Though, I can see the wisdom of supplying a functional set of productivity applications as an add-on to your operating system. Call it "Windows Productivity Pack" or something, and ship it in the same box as the OS. People can then install the OS sans apps, then subsequently install only those apps they want.
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And where do you expect the dumb end users to figure out where to get one of those things?
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Basically yes.
Have a look at Mozilla's accounts. http://www.mozilla.org/foundation/documents/ [mozilla.org]
They make quite a lot of money.
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I'm quite happy with IE 8. I can easily use it to download firefox.