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Comments: 344 +- Technology: 10/GUI — an Interface For Multi-Touch Input on Wednesday October 14, @08:52AM
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Soulskill
on Wednesday October 14, @08:52AM
from the minority-report-without-the-arm-pain dept.
from the minority-report-without-the-arm-pain dept.
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Naznarreb writes "R. Clayton Miller has an extremely impressive GUI concept he's calling 10/GUI (video; written description here). Essentially, it combines the high-bandwidth input possibilities of multi-touch interfaces with the ease and immediacy of a mouse. The video is quite interesting, and, for me at least, pretty jaw dropping. This is a dramatic re-imagining of the current mouse/screen schema, one that I think has significant potential."
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Not for desktop pc's, but (Score:5, Insightful)
Theres still a few problems though. For one, mouse is an incredibly precise input device - you can pretty easily move it along same pixel axis, or get it precisely to a specific pixel. It's hard to do that with your fingers because the area they touch is a large one, it's not easy to just move your finger by one pixel and your hand tend to shake a little bit too. If you look at the video, you see everything in the interface is quite big and even a few small windows take lots of place.
Other problem is that now your both hands lay on the wide touch area and you dont have a keyboard. If you put them side to side, you'll only have one hand on the touch area and dont get the full power of it. Moving hands between them all the time is inefficient. Typing on the touch area gives no feedback and again takes your hands of the "mouse".
It would also be quite impossible to play FPS or other kinds of games with this type of setup.
So no, I still dont see touch interfaces replacing the usual keyboard+mouse combo anytime soon. However, I would love to have this kind of system in my living room (either just for the tv, or the computer thats connected to tv screen). It's clumsy to have keyboard or mouse in living (at the moment I have MX Air -mouse [logitech.com], which is okayish), but this would be perfect for such job. Not for a desktop pc replacement though.
Re:Not for desktop pc's, but (Score:4, Informative)
it's not easy to just move your finger by one pixel
Place finger on surface, then roll finger without lifting or dragging it. I do that all the time on my laptop's trackpad. Besides, you don't need to use pixels as the fundamental unit of movement if your input device can detect movements smaller than a pixel. Putting something at a subpixel position is even easier with modern GPUs (and even Intel GMAs) that power compositing window managers.
It would also be quite impossible to play FPS or other kinds of games with this type of setup.
Even RTS or rail shooters?
Parent
Re:Not for desktop pc's, but (Score:5, Interesting)
At the very end of the video they show a keyboard positioned over the touchpad. So I don't think they're trying to eliminate the keyboard entirely.
Still you've got many valid points. The mouse is still a much needed tool for many tasks.
Parent
Re:Not for desktop pc's, but (Score:5, Insightful)
I watched the video and I found in very interesting. As someone who's sitting in front of a 24" monitor and I've ~30 windows open, I totally get the clutter thing.
With that all said, what I saw was lots of talk and lots of eye candy. If you go to the 10/GUI website it's completely devoid of any details about hardware, what OS it's going to be supported on, etc.
Until there's more details, I'm calling vaporware on this...
Parent
Re:Not for desktop pc's, but (Score:4, Interesting)
Actually, he's described enough of the framework in the video to do it fairly easily with the stuff that's currently available.
Seriously. You'd use a capacitive or similar touch-pad and do multi-touch against that backdrop as an input source. All one has to do is apply something along the lines of this [lii-enac.fr] and modify it to understand his local/global edges of the touchpad and then implement his window management system on top of one of the lightweight WMs out there as a fork.
However, while that would require a smallish amount of work, one has to wonder if he's got patents applied for or a copyright on the "look and feel" that he'll let it all happen and then submarine the whole thing when it becomes "the big thing". If he's letting anyone have access to it, or letting FOSS projects have it under FOSS terms and proprietary under similar RAND terms, then I'd say let's see how the idea actually works. If not, I'd say give it a pass. It's interesting enough to evaluate if he's barking up the right tree or not- but only if he's not merely setting himself up as gatekeeper so he can extract rents on a potentially useful interface paradigm.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I watched the video and I found in very interesting. As someone who's sitting in front of a 24" monitor and I've ~30 windows open, I totally get the clutter thing.
Of course. 1920x1200 is pitifully few pixels to work with. Go multi-monitor. This also raises the question of how something like this would work with a multi-monitor setup, especially with vertically stacked displays.
For me, the problem isn't clutter at all (although I have a bazillion things open at once all the time); it's the ability to see many things at once without always having to shuffle or bring-to-front windows all the time. This UI doesn't solve the interface density issue at all, especially
Re:Not for desktop pc's, but (Score:5, Interesting)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
If your keyboard is "on your desk" then it is probably not the best ergonomic setup. I do this, but that is because I am tall and my knees hit any keyboard trays. I would *hate* having anything below the desk. So for me, it might be the best arrangement to have a split touchpanel or keyboard.
For example, I might like to have the touchpanels on either side of my keyboard. I can put my hands over there. Either that, or split the keyboard (ala Microsoft Natural) on either side of the touch panel.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
the final few seconds of the vid shows it as a suppliment to a keyboard (below it)
so while you're using WASD for movement you can still use the pad like a mouse
OR you can use the left hand for movement on the pad (splitting the left side into Forward/back/left/right sections) totally ignoring the keyboard. Combine it with it's own thin screen below it to display custom click areas, and boom! FPS.
Could even replace the keyboard in that case
Re:Not for desktop pc's, but (Score:4, Insightful)
Another problem is the assumption of 10 digits. For example, this might be more difficult for someone that is missing a digit or is paralyzed in an arm. In that case, the mouse would have a definite advantage.
Parent
Re:Not for desktop pc's, but (Score:5, Insightful)
I understand that people with disabilities have computer input needs too. But I don't understand why the fact that we are all differently-abled should prevent people from using their abilities to their fullest capacity.
Does the fact that some people are missing a digit or have paralysis in one arm mean that no one should propose playing a piano with ten fingers? Does that fact that some people don't have feet mean that pianos should not have foot pedals? Of course not.
While we should move forward with good interface designs for people with disabilities, I don't see why we should stand in the way of people using the abilities they do have in a novel, more productive way.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
You could easily replace the multi-finger gestures with single-feature gestures (or a traditional mouse) plus modifier keys. This system doesn't really let you do anything new you couldn't do before, it just takes advantage of all you fingers to let you do them quickly and more efficiently.
Re:Not for desktop pc's, but (Score:4, Interesting)
It would also be quite impossible to play FPS or other kinds of games with this type of setup.
Are we all really that stuck in our ways that this is how we judge possibly revolutionary ways to interface with our computers? By how well it stacks up to an already poor approximation of shooting guns in a computer game?
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I may not feel the need for using all ten fingers, but I have wanted to use multiple mouse pointers at the same time. Select some files, drag them, then use another mouse (or pen, or touchpad) to manipulate windows (or virtual desktops) until I can drop them on the one I want. Or, move and resize a window at the same time. Perhaps you want to move two windows at once?
I currently only use one pointing device, and it works fine (especially now that I am feverishly addicted to multiple virtual desktops on m
MP:H for the DS (Score:3, Informative)
It would also be quite impossible to play FPS or other kinds of games with this type of setup.
Have you ever played Metroid Prime: Hunters on the DS? It could work very well. I don't see any problems with gaming on a touchscreen. The keyboard placement issue is the only real problem I can see.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Theres still a few problems though. For one, mouse is an incredibly precise input device
Where in the article, or anywhere else for that matter, is it stated one must unplug the mouse from the computer before the touch interface turns on?
For a geek news site, that is a really non-intelligent assumption to make, one that has been proven repeatedly to not be true. With every new input device out there, they run just fine with my mouse also plugged in.
Overhyped (Score:5, Insightful)
How can you over-hype a one-paragraph summary?
Five minutes into the video and I'm still none the wiser as to how this is supposed to be an improvement in the use of my computer, or more comfortable, or easier. The "real-world" demo towards the end doesn't seem at all impressive and leaves out an awful lot of computer uses (we'll start with gaming, because it's easier to pick on multitouch for that).
Why is everyone determined to sell me multitouch but can't actually show a decent use that justifies the price/hassle/upheaval/software development costs?
Window management (Score:3, Interesting)
It doesn't really seem like an improvement in window-management for me either. Sure, window overlays are a bit cluttered, but then again there's only so much information one can process at a given instant.
I tend to have a *lot* of items running as I multitask. A web-browser, document, several terminals, perhaps a coding window, and others. Having windows aligned horizontally it going to be a PITA if I have to zoom out every time I need to jump from #1 to #15. In that event, a taskbar really is quite a nice
Re:Overhyped (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Waiting for input device w/ natural hand position (Score:3, Insightful)
A flat plane of glass sitting on a desk has all the same ergonomics issues a flat keyboard has. The 10GUI concept uses 5th fingers way too much too, just like a standard key board uses 5th fingers too much.
There need to be an input device with both hands resting on the desk with thumbs up and palms facing each. Until they figure out a way for hands to rest in a natural position while inputting, there's going to be big problems with repet. motion injuries. You have to spend too much time in whatever position
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Fortunately half the population is already naturally equipped with this interface.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
How can you over-hype a one-paragraph summary?
Five minutes into the video and I'm still none the wiser as to how this is supposed to be an improvement in the use of my computer, or more comfortable, or easier.
In my opinion, it isn't.
Putting all my apps into a single line and navigating that line is not efficient. I'll stick to Autohotkey which allows me to jump to any of my usual apps with a single keypress.
I found eliminating the mouse as much as possible and finding convenient keyboard shortcuts is the key to efficient computer use. Using a touchpad which is just an other kind of mouse is not the solution. For computer newbies it may be, but not for seasoned users.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
They did, but not enough people bought it.
Youtube video [youtube.com]
This keyboard is much, much better than a normal keyboard+mouse combo. But it takes more than a few minutes to learn, and it was always low volume, so they weren't a huge commercial success.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Load up GlovePIE with a few USB mice - you can use their simple example script to have as many (working) mouse pointers in Windows as you have input devices (even Wiimotes and keyboard, etc.). It's not perfect but does essentially the same thing.
stretching to type (Score:4, Insightful)
I love the concept, but I imagine myself stretching over the touchpad area to type, which wouldn't be very ergonomical. I can also imagine that the base of my palms would rest on the touchpad area occasionally as I type.
It's an interesting implementation (Score:5, Interesting)
But I'm not sure how many people will be wanting to drag their fingers across a surface for 8 hours a day. One of the benefits of a mouse over a touch service is that there's less friction for the hands- all of the rubbing of objects is between the mouse and the surface.
Can I see this replacing the mouse? No.
Can I see this supplementing the mouse? Yes
Can I see this being placed with a mouse and keyboard? No- the combined three objects would take up too much space (who really has that much desk space?)
Re:It's an interesting implementation (Score:5, Informative)
I use a track pad all day. It's no problem. I even still have fingerprints.
Parent
Re:It's an interesting implementation (Score:5, Informative)
Apple's multitouch trackpads on their current notebook lines have it right. In fact, they are so good that I wish they would sell a stand alone trackpad to add onto a desktop keyboard. Using gestures to scroll around a window and two finger click or hold and drag are often much faster than moving around with a mouse.
Not that I would ever get rid of a mouse, except (potentially) on a media system with a limited physical keyboard.
Parent
Needs a curved surface (Score:5, Funny)
The flat surface is not ideal from an ergonomic point of view. The touch-sensitive surface should be curved so that the user's hands can be held at a more natural angle. Preferably two domes of soft, touch-sensitive material, and two small raised dots on the top for tactile positioning. Hm? what? sorry, I drifted off there for a moment... what were we talking about?
VT100 (Score:4, Funny)
I like my GUI text-only, 80 characters wide by 25 lines long. The way Ghod intended.
oh yeah and 7-bit ASCII only... none of this fancy schmancy 8-bit extended code-page goop.
and GET OFF MY LAWN! Damn kids with their game boys.
some subtle hints in that presentation (Score:3, Interesting)
- iphone
- window button position
- dashboard
- expose
- dock
- cinema display
wonder what platform they're going to market to first eh?
Replacing current business work interface (Score:5, Interesting)
I disagree with an earlier poster who says this can't replace the desktop interface we know.
He points out that it is inefficient because one has to move hands between keyboard and pad.
It seems to me that this interface can be manipulated with just one hand. that's how the mouse works now. you take your hand off the mouse to work with the full functionality of the keyboard, why couldn't 10/GUI replace that?
Better still, why not have both! The pad can sense a mouse and act as a mouse pad. If you need to use it as a pad move the mouse off, or perhaps use both the mouse AND the pad at the same time (one hand each). I can see a lot of possibilities there. It could clutter a desk, sure, but I'm sure we can solve that problem.
Second, but probably more importantly, I can easily see this for the work I do, which I imagine is similar to many other people.
I use my system (two monitors) for business. I have data on one side of the screen and sometimes excel or word on the other screen. In addition (here's where 10/GUI could be useful) I'll have a pdf open in the background which i need to quickly scroll through ("in adobe, quickly!?" you ask?). With one hand on the mouse I can quickly zip through Morningstar data, and use my free hand (on the pad) to scroll through a document, then quickly zip back and forth, scrolling and zooming as necessary. Right now that's just using a mouse and it can be tiresome to move around with just that little pointer (especially morningstar! oh it would be nice to have a touch interface for that...)
Finally, I need to have a "document scroller" or whatever it is that I can resize and move around, as I find myself with documents that sometimes need to show different parts of their data on screen. Basically I need to be able to "undock" documents so i can use them effectively (like papers on an actual desktop) and then redock them when I'm done.
That would be a beautiful interface that I do feel would save me some time and frustration. I would buy that for my business.
Virtuoso Users only! (Score:5, Interesting)
Having seen people have trouble with pressing control and clicking at the same time (to deselect a single item), I foresee a chilly reception, user frustration and a training issue. 10GUI is like playing Mozart among people only able to manage Chop Sticks.
I see this as stratifying feature... the have's and have not, the able and the un-able. I would request this for my workflow, but the run of the mill admins would be stuck with the keyboard. Aside from the social aspect, there is the difficult task of convincing the boss that "you need this, even if the others don't". Good luck with that.
I have grown to hate the windowing paradigm for all the reasons cited. I'm not convinced that the linear arrangement is an improvement. I'm more in favor of multiple monitors, the main screen for the primary task and satellites with multiple windows for ancillary tasks. 10GUI doesn't address this.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I see this as stratifying feature... the have's and have not, the able and the un-able.
I think you're right in a lot of what you're saying, except for this. The problem is that if most people don't feel comfortable, then it won't become a ubiquitous control scheme. Most computers won't come with the appropriate hardware and software support, so it won't be available for most computers you sit down at. That means most people won't get the opportunity to practice it and become comfortable with it.
So there may be some occasional people who have it set up on their own computer and use it them
going in circles (Score:5, Insightful)
Apple got its multitouch technology by buying a company called FingerWorks. FingerWorks' primary product was just like what 10/GUI describes: a multitouch surface that could either replace they keyboard or the mouse(pad). It largely failed in the market.
People use the keyboard and mouse because they really work well. If people did want more DOF, it would be easy to add more sensors to a standard mouse, for example to record twisting, pushing, and other pressures, but even that isn't catching on.
Another idea that keeps bubbling up is the idea of pressure sensitive keyboards; they also keep failing because the resulting interactions just become too complex and add little benefit.
The real flaw in all these devices is the assumption that the limiting factor in communicating with machines is they "bandwidth" of they keyboard and mouse. It really isn't. Generally, people can think no faster than they can type and mouse, and speeding up the keyboard or mouse any further is pointless.
Re:going in circles (Score:4, Insightful)
As an owner of the FingerWorks TouchStream (the keyboard/mousepad multitouch combo product), I disagree with your assessment. The reasons the keyboard failed are many. One of the most important ones, I think, was that it was too early. Yes, it had multi-touch, but no application supported multi-touch. So the only thing you could use it for is a virtual keyboard. The keyboard was good, but lacked haptic feedback, thus making touch-typing very difficult.
If applications would support multi-touch, a product like the TouchStream could be a success, because now it gives you an advantage over a conventional keyboard.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
I disagree: the keyboard and mouse do not work really well. What they are is really easy to start using, and good enough.
The TouchStream takes at least a month or two to get used to. Most people spent that long getting started with a keyboard, and aren't willing to invest the time again learning a new device. Nor is there any pressing need except for power users.
For those power users, though, the TouchStream presents a potentially big[1] boost to productivity and comfort. At least, that's what I found.
[1]
Re:going in circles (Score:4, Insightful)
There is no such thing as "zero force typing"; it's physically impossible. And hitting a hard surface while typing is subjecting you to more strain and requires you to use more muscles than a regular keyboard.
Moving your hands between they keyboard and mouse is generally a good thing. However, if it really bothers you, there are many existing keyboard designs that use regular keys and have a built-in trackball or trackpoint. You can also use footmice.
If the Fingerworks product works for you, you should probably stick with it. But it's probably not a good choice for most people, and it's probably not even the most ergonomic choice for you.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Have you ever actually used a Fingerworks TouchStream?
I have, for years, and you're simply wrong: typing on a TouchStream requires less force than typing on a mechanical keyboard.
It's "touch" for a reason. You don't press, you touch.
Application-centric workflow is a problem (Score:4, Interesting)
Application centric user interfaces are already a problem. On both Windows and Mac these days there's an increasing level of application-centric organization, and that breaks the task-centric workflow badly. I normally have a separate workspace for each task, with windows from each application all visible simultaneously. I can surround each primary document with windows of all sizes, to the sides, above, and below. The 10/GUI control model looks very very good, and would work well for a multi-desktop window-oriented workflow, but the Con10uum user interface would be a huge obstacle multi-document workflow.
cool looking, but whats the point? (Score:3, Insightful)
All 10 fingers (Score:4, Insightful)
You know what other interface uses all 10 fingers...a piano.
Virtuoso pianists can make magic with the interface.
Most people never really get it.
This is the fundamental limitation of all these schemes. The mouse is easy enough that anybody can use it. The more manual dexterity that's required, the more it becomes like learning to play the piano.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
It's not the number of fingers that makes playing piano hard. It's the combinations. The chords are the hard part. Also the independent use of each finger. An interface like this and most other multi-touch interfaces use simple clenching or releasing motions. These are movements that anyone with fully functional hands will have already mastered. They are baby movements.
As for FPS games I don't see the issues I'd say my finger tip is roughly the size of a baddies head. Panning would be a breeze. Gro
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Accessibility (Score:3, Insightful)
This would exclude a lot of users, and not just those who are missing a few fingers. About 10 years ago, I helped set up some web-browsing PC's in a community-college library. One of the things I hadn't anticipated was that some of the older users were lacking in coordination to the extent that it made it difficult for them to use the PC effectively. Even the task of trying to double-click fast enough to get it to register as a double-click would cause these users to twitch some of their arm muscles, causing the mouse to scoot a couple of inches in the middle of the double-click. They'd try several times to get it right, but the mouse always ended up moving off of the targeted icon before the double-click was complete.
What we eventually had to do was to provide trackballs, so that the user could move the mouse pointer to where they wanted it and then, taking their hand off of the ball part of the trackball, double-click the buttons. So, that is the level of dexterity that some users are at. So, this three-finger-pinch-zooming idea... I could see this being extremely frustrating for them.
Metaphor infinity (Score:3)
Metaphors are held to the laws of physics, aging and death. Witness crop of new gestures creeping up on desktop files and apps.
Transitional schemes bridge us to the next heuristic interface which hasn't evolved yet to mass market technology.
Voice .vs. touch will define the future as technology obviates the necessity to command .vs. control.
Fingers become irritated (Score:3, Interesting)
Used a multitouch pad a few years back replacing a mouse. Had multiple gestures and macros. After a while, though, my fingers became oversensitive to the surface and the touch became very uncomfortable.
An incremental hardware update putting on airs (Score:4, Insightful)
I blogged this last night. Short version: fail.
Problems:
1. You just doubled the amount of space I need between myself and the monitor.
2. Multitouch allows for more kinds of interaction: true! However, this interface steals ALL of them away from use by the applications.
3. Left and right sides of the screen aren't discoverable. Might as well be top and bottom -- i.e. bottom of the screen for application launching (call it a "dock") and top of the screen for context-specific options (a sort of "bar" of "menus").
4. Linear spatial overload of windows is no better than two-dimensional spatial overload of windows. Labelled zoom-all-the-way-out cheat no better than Expose and application switcher.
5. Where does file management fit into this scheme?
Lukas Mathis calls 10/GUI "one of the most dramatic reimaginations of the desktop user interface I've seen in a long time" but on examination it's an incremental hardware update with no real interface breakthroughs. Keyboard + mouse has gone on for far too long, as has the W.I.M.P. interface. A better direction would be a tactile multitouch surface which can be anything it needs to be, including a keyboard (for any language), coupled with a GUI that represents tasks and actors rather than objects in a space. 10/GUI does nothing about window and document clutter, squinting, scanning large lists, or making the computer's workings and status an organic part of its presentation. The video may be a slick investors' reel, but shows no real progress.
FPS != be-all end-all. (Score:2)
But how would you...play an FPS on it?
That'd be like asking how one plays a Wii-style game on an Xbox 360. The games specifically made for this sort of device would have a different design. Imagine the kind of control in an RTS that this would enable.
Besides, from what perspective are Duck Hunt and Time Crisis played?