Chevrolet Volt In a Gasoline-Only Scenario 594
s122604 sends in a performance review of the Chevy Volt, paying particular attention to what happens after the initial plug-in capacity has been depleted. This reader adds, "The review indicates that the performance is adequate, and perhaps better than anticipated. If the Volt can deliver technically, especially with the possibility that it could retail for less than expected (WSJ subscription may be required), does GM have a potential hit on its hands?" "How well will General Motors' Chevrolet Volt drive once it gets past its 40 mile all-electric driving range and starts to rely on power generated by its gasoline engine? That's been a question for both critics and fans of the Volt, and with just 11 months to go before this car hits the market, I got the answer."
Oh great, another subdized vehicle... (Score:5, Interesting)
...that's still too expensive for Joe Shiftworker. Doesn't it just give you a warm fuzzy to see people driving past you in cars that you can't afford to buy because the Government gouged you so hard in order to give your tax money to the people who can afford to buy them?
Re:Oh great, another subdized vehicle... (Score:5, Insightful)
Or gave the money to the car manufacturer
On Hybrid Vehicles (Score:5, Interesting)
How come all hybrid vehicles comes in the form of Gasoline / Battery ?
How come there is no hybrid vehicle that is in the form of Diesel / Battery ?
Do you know that diesel engines is much more efficient than that of the gasoline engine ?
And if we are really into the "Green" thing, why must we stuck with the gasoline engine ?
Why can't we change to Diesel / Battery instead, for hybrids ?
Can someone who knows much more about this give some comments, please?
Thank you !
Re:On Hybrid Vehicles (Score:5, Informative)
The problem is that a Diesel engine is very heavy and expensive. Most hybrids are made for short trips so it would be a great waste of resources to carry around a heavy engine. Hybrid gasoline engines have a somewhat different cycle (Atkinson cycle) than normal gasoline engines (traditional Otto cycle) and thus are more economical. Add the weight savings compared to the heavier Diesel engines (especially with a particle filter) and you'll see why there are no Diesel hybrid cars - it just isn't worth it. Lorries, trains and ships are made for very long range and there a Diesel hybrid is much more practical, especially in the case of ships and trains where the Diesel engine is often only connected to the generator so it can be in its most efficient revolution speed the whole time and (because of the constant speed) have a very long life.
Re:On Hybrid Vehicles (Score:4, Insightful)
The problem is that a Diesel engine is very heavy and expensive. Most hybrids are made for short trips so it would be a great waste of resources to carry around a heavy engine. Hybrid gasoline engines have a somewhat different cycle (Atkinson cycle) than normal gasoline engines (traditional Otto cycle) and thus are more economical. Add the weight savings compared to the heavier Diesel engines (especially with a particle filter) and you'll see why there are no Diesel hybrid cars - it just isn't worth it. Lorries, trains and ships are made for very long range and there a Diesel hybrid is much more practical, especially in the case of ships and trains where the Diesel engine is often only connected to the generator so it can be in its most efficient revolution speed the whole time and (because of the constant speed) have a very long life.
I expect that as diesel engines become smaller and have lower emissions (like the 1.3 litre Fiat engine [wikipedia.org]) and fuel prices increase the equation will change and we will see diesel hybrids.
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The problem is that a Diesel engine is very heavy and expensive.
Heavier and more expensive than a 375 LB battery pack [wikipedia.org] + electric motor + gasoline engine ?
I think not.
Modern turbo-diesels are outstanding pieces of work, but the US market is prejudiced against them because of their noisy, smelly, polluting predecessors.
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I am from Germany and don't really care about the US market. And anyway, the question was, why there aren't any Diesel hybrids so the battery pack and electric motor are there in both cases.
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I am from Germany and don't really care about the US market. And anyway, the question was, why there aren't any Diesel hybrids so the battery pack and electric motor are there in both cases.
Because Japan, like the US, doesn't much like diesel passenger cars either. Hopefully the Euro hybrids won't be far away...
Re:On Hybrid Vehicles (Score:4, Insightful)
And Japan has learned to adapt. They have to or they can't sell.
I'm in Belgium, and up to about 2 or 3 years ago you couldn't buy a Honda with a diesel engine.
While Hondas were very popular cars here in the 80ies, their popularity dropped a lot.
Car dealerships even switched brands as they couldn't sell enough Hondas, people looked for diesel engines.
Honda finally adapted and introduced a diesel model.
(launched with a rather large ad campaign to let everyone know they finally had a diesel)
Btw it was last week in the news, here in Belgium about 75% of all cars have a diesel engine.
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And anyway, the question was, why there aren't any Diesel hybrids so the battery pack and electric motor are there in both cases.
The issue is entirely one of price.
Even a small diesel is more expensive than an equally sized gasoline motor and the auto execs just can't justify adding that premium ontop of the electric premium.
I imagine that someday, when prices on battery packs come down, (turbo) diesel electric hybrids will be the norm and we can forget about gasoline electrics.
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I don't. Even European Diesel fuel doesn't burn that clean. I rather hope for HCCI engines (a fuel-gasoline mix compressed and preheated to the point of auto-ignition). Those engines combine the fuel economy of a Diesel engine with the gasoline engine like emissions.
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Now if you'll excuse me, I am going to install a new clutch in my 1996 "B4" VW Passat TDi wagon, which gets a REAL WORLD 40 miles per gallon in combined use, and that's a conservatively low estimate.
My 2000 Saturn gets 40mpg. . . and it's a gas engine that has more than enough power to leave most people behind. Of course, when i drive like that, I don't get 40 MPG :)
I am not on the battery powered car bandwagon. I'm also not on the compact fluorescent bandwagon either, I think both of these technologies do more damage to the environment than their "bad" alternatives. And your average hybrid really doesn't save much in the way of fuel over your diesel or my gas engines.
Do I think we need to get away
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[citation needed]
Otherwise, it's just conspiracy theories from an AC.
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He's not saying diesels are pointless, he's saying diesel hybrids are a waste of time.
Diesel fuel (Score:3, Informative)
That's because they ARE noisy, smelly and polluting..
Go straight to your local VW or BMW dealer and ask to see their diesels. I have so I know you are quite wrong. Heck VW diesels keep winning the green vehicle awards over the hybrids.
Besides, diesel is more inconvenient as I'd have to hunt to find a station that dispenses it. Not all do and they would be mainly on the big truck transport routes.
Just over half of all filling stations in the US have diesel. It's not even remotely hard to find.
Green diesel (Score:4, Informative)
No. 2009 was the FIRST year a VW diesel won
Are you sure about that? [wired.com] Because I'm pretty sure you are wrong.
So there is ONE 2009 model out there with descent emissions.
If you bothered to actually look you'd find the diesels from Mercedes and BMW as well as Audi and VW all are quite clean these days. Seriously. Go look before you spout of unresearched nonsense.
What does that have to say about all the other soot and sulfur belching monstrosities?
Nothing whatsoever. There are lots of smog producing gasoline engines too. Has nothing to do with the ability to produce clean diesels. The technology exists and is in production.
Re:On Hybrid Vehicles (Score:4, Insightful)
The problem is that a Diesel engine is very heavy and expensive. Most hybrids are made for short trips so it would be a great waste of resources to carry around a heavy engine. Hybrid gasoline engines have a somewhat different cycle (Atkinson cycle) than normal gasoline engines (traditional Otto cycle) and thus are more economical. Add the weight savings compared to the heavier Diesel engines (especially with a particle filter) and you'll see why there are no Diesel hybrid cars - it just isn't worth it. Lorries, trains and ships are made for very long range and there a Diesel hybrid is much more practical, especially in the case of ships and trains where the Diesel engine is often only connected to the generator so it can be in its most efficient revolution speed the whole time and (because of the constant speed) have a very long life.
Let's also not forget that many smaller diesel engines(new VW Beetle comes to mind) are already VERY efficient, putting up damn near hybrid mileage numbers without the overhead and worry of battery maintenance 100,000 miles later.
Re:On Hybrid Vehicles (Score:5, Interesting)
In 2002, I was in the market for a new vehicle. I wanted good fuel mileage, so at the end of my search I was looking at two vehicles, a Toyota Prius (which were pretty new at the time) and a VW Jetta TDI. Test drives made it no contest. I chose the TDI. It was somewhat cheaper, handled better, got better fuel mileage for my purposes, and included some niceties like a sunroof and more room. I was also concerned since the Prius was so new, whereas the TDI's been around for a very long time.
Most of my driving at the time was on the highway, and the TDI gets better highway mileage than the Prius. I don't know if that's true of today's models - I think VW added some horsepower to the TDI in '08 or '09 and may have cut the mileage, where the Prius probably gets better mileage since that's its major goal. The Prius also has a few more years under its belt and certainly has a decent track record - they aren't dropping like flies at least.
Fast forward 85,000 miles and 7 years, and I'd be sweating a battery replacement pack right about now on the Prius. I did have to replace the timing belt and THAT wasn't cheap, but it's nothing compared to a new battery pack.
When I first bought it, Diesel was a good bit cheaper than gasoline, too. That has since reversed, but I still get better miles-per-dollar than my wife's already pretty efficient Pontiac Vibe gasoline engine. Had a chosen a Prius, I'd probably be spending a little less on fuel now (maybe about $200/year), but I refer you again to the $3500+ battery pack, which is enough money for me to buy more than a THREE YEAR supply of Diesel fuel outright even if Diesel was at $4 a gallon.
I won't say the TDI is completely trouble-free, it's a VW with its share of problems. I've replaced a few expensive parts that really shouldn't have broken, and there are a few things that are broken that aren't worth fixing (front door "open" sensors are both shot, but at $500 a pop, they can stay that way). But it's still a comfortable, responsive, enjoyable car that gets great fuel mileage. Carries a couple of large kayaks on top without complaint, too. :)
I don't honestly know how much this car would benefit from any sort of hybrid tech. I suppose it might be useful to put a smaller battery in it and have a "booster motor" with regenerative braking, so when I come to a stop some of that energy could be stored to get moving again. But I'm not sure if there would be any significant savings.
Diesel hybrids (Score:3, Informative)
The problem is that a Diesel engine is very heavy and expensive. Most hybrids are made for short trips so it would be a great waste of resources to carry around a heavy engine.
Hybrids are made for the same purposes as every other cars and are driven no differently. I don't know why you think a hybrid is somehow driven any different than a car with just an internal combustion engine. Diesels are fine for even typical commuting distances. It doesn't have to be a 1000 mile journey to get benefits from a diesel.
As for cost, that has FAR more to do with economies of scale than it does any additional material and engineering costs. In Europe the majority of vehicles are diesel and
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Yes, even 25 kg matter. Also you need to add a particle filter. And 30% efficiency isn't true (alone because Diesel fuel has got higher energy content), especially if compared to the Atkinson cycle gasoline engine.
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If AC is giving you the curb weight, doesn't that mean the particle filter is already in there?
For the Cooper S vs D: .83 to convert from imperial MPG.
Gas: 28/37 - EPA [fueleconomy.gov]
Diesel:42/63 - I can't find American numbers, but I did find this [timesonline.co.uk], and multiplied by
So, you're right, 30% isn't true... It appears that it may be better in terms of efficiency. It has less horses, but the same torque. I don't know if the numbers are really that much better.
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So what is the Detroit going to do for a business model when they sell a product with a 25 year duty life vs a 6 year duty life?
I don't think they plan that far ahead, especially when they are in danger of failing now (GM at least). Part of the problem might be the fuel supply, I recall reading that the U.S. doesn't currently have the infrastructure to support a big increase in use of low-sulfur diesel. Part of the problem might be what they think people want- a lot of people still have a negative view of diesel because they only see it on buses and stinky old European cars. I know that new diesel cars are as quiet and clean as g
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Mercedes is working on a diesel hybrid
Re:On Hybrid Vehicles (Score:4, Informative)
Diesel gives you better low end torque (but electric motors have much more of it anyway)
Diesel engines are more expensive, and getting power from them forces you to turbo them (which increases costs too)
On the other hand, gasoline engines are quieter (in both noise and rumbling), and can reach higher power without turbo (typical gasoline engines have higher power than similar displacement turbo diesel engines, and lower cost)
Gasoline engines don't have low end torque, but that doesn't matter at all.
Now, Mercedes is preparing some diesel-hybrid model (the class E with a 2.2 liter diesel).
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I'm not disputing what you say about this. However, we're talking about different things here:
-R10 would be a 10-cylinder diesel engine, and with more cylinders the engine is easier to balance.
-high speeds and an open cockpit means a lot of wind noise, tire noise and so on. Having the engine barely audible in those conditions is not the great feat you imply it to be
-the vibrations of a diesel engine are noteworthy ony at low rpm, especially at idle. At higher rpm the current diesels are only a bit more nois
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Excuse me? Low end torque doesn't matter at all? What do you think gets a car moving from a dead stop? And accelerates it to cruising speed? It's called low end torque. Obviously you have never seen HP/torque curves for gasoline and diesel engines before.
Apparently you've never seen the T-curve of an electric motor. Let me give you a hint, it's highest point is a band of revs beginning at zero. Torque, especially low end, is not something an electric motor lacks.
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I've had fuel in my car for more than 4 weeks in winter, without starting it. I had no problems with this.
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There is a reason diesel train engines have been replaced by diesel-electric hybrids or electric-only train engines - that diesel engines do not have enough low-end torque.
Actually its because the transmissions were becoming massive, adding huge amounts of weight and requiring yet another series of parts to be maintained. The solution was to replace the transmission with a series of electric motors and use the diesel as a generator. Electric motors have excellent low end torque and in doing so, they've increased the longevity of the diesel engine while saving considerable weight and maintenance.
Re:On Hybrid Vehicles (Score:4, Informative)
Wrong, that is not the reason why pure diesels are being replaced by Diesel Electrics, or pure electrics.
A plain diesel engine needs a transmission gearbox, clutch, and various other drive train features to deliver the power of the diesel engine to the wheels.
With locomotives being a lot more complex than cars already there are more losses due to the conventional drivetrain. Here are some issues:
- Diesels have a narrow band of high torque/power, hence a loco would need multiple gear ratios to keep in band, requiring complex transmissions.
- greater number of driving wheels, require more complex drive shafts, couplers, and differentials to ensure all wheels get equal power, and consistent speeds. In the case of a DMU (diesel multiple unit) its harder to synchronize the engines on each unit to run at the same speed/rpm, and each engine on each unit would need a transmission/torqueconverter/drive train, etc.
- Bogies, Large locomotives have bogies (trucks in American usage) instead of fixed wheels. Bogies revolve freely on their axis, making the drivetrain even more complex.
- complex controls to cater for all this.
Diesel Electric Locos/DMUs avoid these problems.
- The engine is replaced by a prime mover built to run at a certain optimum bands, which are simpler/powerful than ones that have to work across different bands around different.
- The prime mover generates electricity, which can be piped around via much more flexible wires (even across units)
- Electric drive direct motors mounted within each bogie.
- Electric motors can provide very high torque at zero mph, needing no transmittions, or complex drivetrains.
- Trains can "cruise" efficiently, once at a speed, little power is needed to maintain that speed, and the prime mover can be appropriately throttled down, so no need to run at high RPMs for long periods at high speed (notice how a DE locos engine throttles down as it reaches speed, but runs "hard" at the start and when accelerating).
- Electric motors can provider reostatic braking, which is more efficient, and cost effective than friction brakes (and can possibly be used to GENERATE power when braking, returning power to the line when braking on pure electric trains)
- Easy to do DMUs, by putting a sequence of smaller diesel generators across the units, than one large heavy loco at front.
- Simpler controls (just a notched throttle and reverser)
- Trains can run off plain electricity where available.
- High Speed Operation (The UK have diesels operating at 125mph in regular use, some DMUs and some loco based)
Re:On Hybrid Vehicles (Score:5, Insightful)
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As someone who lived in Quebec from the mid-70s to the mid-90s, I can tell you that the only was to prevent
a car from rusting out in regular winter driving would be to do weekly salt / rust removal or multiple oil sprays on the entire undercarriage.
A friend of mine who moved to Vancouver found that, in terms of body rust, 10 year old cars in BC were in better shape
than 5 year old ones in QC.
Re:On Hybrid Vehicles (Score:4, Insightful)
Weird, I lived in NJ. for 25 years had a few cars that lasted me more than 200K and did not rust out. it's all about keeping the car clean and waxed, 1 carwash per month in the winter keeps it in shape. I don't know about the rest, but car's have always survived looking new with me ( still have my 1997 ford and it still looks new 140K miles )
Re:Oh great, another subdized vehicle... (Score:5, Insightful)
I dunno.
When the Model T was introduced, it cost the equivalent of around 20K$, about half what this car is going to go for. But competing cars were more in the $50K to $70K range, so $40K is not too bad, and somewhat less than that (as the article says might happen) would be quite practical for many working people *given that there are operational savings*. It could well be a modest success at a price like $35K.
The cost of the Model T drop from $20,000 in current dollars to $12000 and then to under $10000, making it practical for the workers who assembled it to buy one. That's economies of manufacturing scale. The Volt has potentials for such economies of scale as the purchase expensive new parts like large batteries attracts investment and initial development costs are recouped. A modest hit with new technology is hard to achieve, but it will drive down cost and drive up profits more quickly than throwing a new skin on the same old platform would, where economies of scale have already been accounted for.
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Except Ford actually quadrupled the salaries to make it possible; nowadays we get taxed to hell and back out of our current salaries.
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Safety and predictability. Make things boring and people, in the average, are happy :)
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...that's still too expensive for Joe Shiftworker. Doesn't it just give you a warm fuzzy to see people driving past you in cars that you can't afford to buy because the Government gouged you so hard in order to give your tax money to the people who can afford to buy them?
Oh, I would love to hear you detail exactly how the government has been gouging you in particular. You know... new taxes, increases in old taxes, cuts in benefits, and how each one you list affects your bottom line. I'm sure lots of people here would like to hear all of the juicy details. So, let's hear it.
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Oh, I would love to hear you detail exactly how the government has been gouging you in particular.
Oh let's see - start with 1) destroying the value of the US dollar, which both increases the cost of imports (trivial stuff like, say, oil), 2) persistently lying about inflation because ok we'll say there's no inflation by taking out transport and energy from the inflation equation then we'll use substitution and hedonics [wikipedia.org] to skew the inflation numbers in our favor and of course the cost o
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Yes borrowing money is something most governments do. Most of the time, that does not lead to big problems. There is this graph doing the rounds that suggests that most republicans governments spend their way into debt, while the deficit is reduced on a democrat watch.
Re:Oh great, another subdized vehicle... (Score:5, Informative)
If you are referring to the Clinton years. The deficits were high until the Republican takeover of Congress.
This is simply wrong. Under Clinton the deficit got consistently smaller and smaller, starting in 1992. The Republican takeover occurred in 1994. See the CBO [cbo.gov] data. Or take a look at the following graph [cbo.gov].
And I would agree with those that think the gigantic spike in 2009 is really, really scary.
Re:Oh great, another subdized vehicle... (Score:5, Informative)
The biggest budget deficits ever were under Bush and Regan. Republicans claim a platform of low spending and low taxes, then turn around and invoke the biggest spending and tax hikes to cover it. The Republican media spin army is LYING to you.
Responsible government seem to only lie with the Democrats (unfortunately for the overall democracy). And I believe this is a recent phenomenon, probably since Regan.
Re:Oh great, another subdized vehicle... (Score:5, Informative)
New technologies almost always target the high-end first, and later move down to the middle and low-end products. That's because initially there are no economies of scale from high-volume manufacturing. As the high-end ramps to reasonable volume, technolologies, like the batteries, will drop in price, allowing cost effective medium-end offerings. Take a look at the Tesla cars. Their first (the Roadster), is > $100K. Their second is expected to be around $57K. They plan a third in the $35K range, but first, their Model S has to succeed.
Anyway, the government is trying to help you get into a Chevey Volt, to the tune of about $7,000. Your price wont be $40K, you'll pay $33K. Given the performance and specs, it's not unreasonable, though if they could drop a few K, it'd sell a lot better. They'll also have a Cadillac version, but they plan cheaper versions in the future.
Re:Oh great, another subdized vehicle... (Score:5, Insightful)
Do you honestly think people are going to pay US$30-40k for a compact car that (feature-wise) compares to a US$16k Toyota Corolla?
Other than the deep pocketed early adopters and people who want to flaunt their "greenness", I think the sales of the Volt are going to be bleak.
And even if they sold every one of their stated 8000 unit capacity (in the first year), they're losing money on each one AND reliant on a government subsidy to close the sale.
This has epic failure written all over it even though it seems to a casual observer to be a "nice product."
Re:Oh great, another subdized vehicle... (Score:4, Insightful)
Irrelevant. Working class doesn't pay cash for cars so $40k is barely relevant... To them the bottom line is how much it costs per month - and since this can be compared to fuel costs per month, the conversation with the salesman is going to be "yes it costs this much more per month for the car, but this much less for fuel"
It's a question of whether one can offset the other. Can it?
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Do you honestly think people are going to pay US$30-40k for a compact car that (feature-wise) compares to a US$16k Toyota Corolla?
They already pay $28k for a car that has the same features as a Toyota Corolla. It's called a Prius. [kbb.com]
Re:Oh great, another subdized vehicle... (Score:5, Insightful)
I'll type this really slowly to make it easy for you to understand:
The government is not trying to help me get into a Volt. They're taking money from me in order to help someone else get into a Volt.
Why should the government help YOU get a Volt? (Score:4, Insightful)
This is what ticks me off the most about the car. I don't care about the grandiose claims. What I do care is that GM through its connections in the US Government taking money out of my pocket so someone else can buy this car.
They are transferring the efforts of my labor, my training, and such, to someone else because of what? Really? Where in the hell is the justification for this?
Can't wait for someone to declare its a right or for the public good. Whats next? Condemning older cars as urban blight and forcing people to buy what they don't need or want?
Government isn't doing anything but taking from others by force of law and distributing to those who would not have the courage to do so in person. There is nothing about this transfer that benefits the public good, unless your a rich corporation or a public official.
Because it's time I benefited from gov't spending. (Score:5, Insightful)
My pockets have been picked since I started working to fight useless wars and fund an enormous, expensive and increasingly ineffective military. Not to mention the soaring spending rates on police agencies from local to Federal which reduce my freedoms.
The money being spent on Volt subsidies is nothing compared to handouts to corn farmers. It's a pittance compared to money we just hand over to other nations.
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My pockets have been picked since I started working to fight useless wars and fund an enormous, expensive and increasingly ineffective military. Not to mention the soaring spending rates on police agencies from local to Federal which reduce my freedoms. The money being spent on Volt subsidies is nothing compared to handouts to corn farmers. It's a pittance compared to money we just hand over to other nations.
Two wrongs don't make a right. On the other hand, without a military there is little to prevent the have-nots of this world from coming over with their nail-boards and extorting from you whatever they can. Do we spend too much on these things? Probably. Does that make the Chevy Volt subsidy any more noble or right than it otherwise would be? IMHO, no.
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But Nancy Pelosi says that we have to subsidize ineffecient American car manufacturers because after all neither Honda nor Toyota nor Nissan are American car manufacturers oh wait how many plants do they have in the US again? (14, 4 and 3 respectively) because God forbid America not be able to produce cars!!! Remember that speech? Long live social^H^H^H^H^H er capitalism!
Re:Oh great, another subdized vehicle... (Score:4, Insightful)
and Japanese parts where the profits go home to Japan
And then they turn around and buy US debt [treas.gov] with those profits. You really have no clue about how a global economy works, do you? If it wasn't for China and Japan, the US would be bankrupt and you would not be enjoying your current standard of living.
If anyone is smoking anything, it's you.
The US dollar is the world reserve currency (Score:3, Interesting)
And then they turn around and buy US debt with those profits.
The interest of which you service through your income taxes. What happens to slaves when they don't pay their income taxes?
If it wasn't for China and Japan, the US would be bankrupt
How so. Where do dollars come from? What is money? Who defines what money is? It's ridiculous to think of a nation as bankrupt. Money is simply bits of paper representing a claim on real goods. A nation can define it's own currency representing all the wealth that the nation can produce. In America it happens to be defined (for some reason, and to the benefit of some) as debt. Without C
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The interest of which you service through your income taxes.
You assume I am from the US. I am not.
Plus, the US does not service interest on its debt through taxation. It services the interest by issuing still more debt, like a giant Ponzi scheme on an international level; and by inflating the currency to artificially reduce the debt and its interest. Taxation alone is nowhere near enough to pay the bills of the US government, on all levels. Look at California, for example. Yet they keep spending money.
It's
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I don't think any government gives out money to spite the poor..
Re:Oh great, another subdized vehicle... (Score:4, Insightful)
no, the government gives out money to buy the poor's vote...
"When the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic" - Ben Frankin
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Doesn't the top 1 percent control 42 percent of the wealth in USA? So that probably means that most of the bailout money actually did come from those those few percent that "can afford to buy them", since they payed most of the tax.
Re:Oh great, another subdized vehicle... (Score:4, Informative)
The top 1% pays less than 42% of the taxes. They can afford to pay for tax experst to find tax havens and find ways to get through the loopholes that save them from paying some of the taxes.
It's why any talk of a flat tax is violently fought against. it would require the rich to actually pay their taxes, and that just wont do.
Re:Oh great, another subdized vehicle... (Score:5, Insightful)
The top 1% pays less than 42% of the taxes.
You know, you could reword that as "The top 1% pays over 40% of the taxes!" Do those top 1% use 40% of the roads, military, medicaid, social security and welfare? I'm not saying they aren't getting the full benefit of access to our society, but clearly they aren't exactly freeloading on the goodwill of the 99% of the people who are paying the other 59% of the taxes.
They also only earn about 22% of the country's income, despite paying 40% of the taxes.
Better than Lexuses and BMWs (Score:2)
because the Government gouged you so hard
The problem is, because of currency manipulations, that foreign governments are essentially subsidizing their car companies so that they can export to the USA. Guys in Japan are living literally in shoebox sized cubbyholes with -nothing-, so they can send us made in Japan stuff. Guys in China and South Korea have missed the whole Ford experiment and benefit of unionization, and will never be to afford what they make, and meanwhile, sitting in the banks of China, J
Redistribution of wealth is a false argument (Score:2)
Too true -- like the Clash for Clunkers program, this is a redistribution of wealth,
You can't argue the government has no right to redistribute wealth, when, by virtue of grants of monopoly versus patents, copyrights, and the creation of armed forces to protect the property of the wealthy, that they are actually getting the right to redistribute and retain wealth themselves.
Duh (Score:3, Insightful)
Of course the driving performance is the exact same. There is only one driving engine, the electric one, and creating power-enough for it is not hard. Now the real question is: What is its fuel-performance when batteries are depleted?
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Well in that case it's working like a Diesel-Electric locomotive so it would be running at fairly constant revs when cruising and increased revs when pulling off or accelerating hard. It is hard to say what kind of power requirements would be needed without the spec of the engine and electric motors but I can't see it being any less fuel efficient than a standard car but I could be wrong.
It should be interesting to see the numbers. They could run the gas engine at max efficiency most of the time it is needed; and with proper power management use the battery for high load demands (acceleration) situations. Regenerative braking would also help economy; it would also extend brake life as well. They've gotten rid of much of the power train losses as well.
One side note - I wonder if it will make car sounds? Years ago I worked at a place doing electric car research; we had a fleet on our camp
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electric vehicles lack that feedback.
Not all! Some make artificial noise!
Until they're able to drive themselves, I think that should be a law.
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Thats not really a safe assumption to make, although it may be true in the case of the Volt.
Electric motors can draw enormous amounts of power. Even a fairly low end car these days can peak out at around 100hp, although likely not except when you mash on the gas trying to merge or something.
100hp is 75 kilowatts. With electical losses and so forth, you're going to need to pump maybe 90 kilowatts to the motor to get that equivalent amount of "oomph" when you mash on the pedal.
With the right battery pack, you
Re:Duh (Score:5, Informative)
"What is its fuel-performance when batteries are depleted?"
About 50 mpg. YMMV.
Re:Duh (Score:4, Insightful)
Just 11 months to go? (Score:2)
... and with just 11 months to go before this car hits the market, I got the answer.
Since when is 11 months a short time until the release of a product? It shouldn't even be being discussed this far out. If it was maybe a month or two until the release, some anticipatory articles would be fine. But this just smells of more bullshit hype or "viral marketing" for the Volt, which has already had previous premature media campaigns.
If you're going to release a product, just release it! Don't crap on about what you plan to release one day.
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Hype - it's important and sometimes required to get your
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I hate the trend of movies doing this. You see an awesome trailer which ends with the teaser date of Spring 2011.
I guess it must work for some people. For me, it just burns out my desire for the movie long before it airs.
Qualitative journalism (Score:5, Insightful)
The classic problem with selling new cars is that the people who can afford to buy them don't care about efficiency. They want a car that will dust whoever's next to them when they take off from a stoplight, and looks/drives sporty and/or like a Cadillac.
Car reporters take this a step farther and don't even care how much the car costs to buy or operate, just how it feels to be behind the wheel. So in the end, cheap cars never get positive press, and efficient cars only get it if they play to the luxury-class tastes of Car and Driver.
Re:Qualitative journalism (Score:4, Insightful)
I do agree with the average automotive journalist's disconnect on what is "adequate" power. For example, I bought a 2005 Volvo XC90 with the 2.5t 5-cylinder engine. This engine/vehicle combination was almost unanimously dismissed in the press for having inadequate power, to the point where Volvo replaced it in 2007 with a 3.2 litre V6 that gets slightly worse fuel economy. In my time owning this vehicle, I have never wished it had more power. It has always done what I've asked it to do. So what's up with those journalists? I guess they don't have to live with the car and put premium fuel into it like us actual owners do.
The Volt is THE car for the times... (Score:4, Insightful)
The virtually inevitable future of ground transportation isn't petroleum, since we will indeed eventually run out. However the obstacles are too many for a pure EV to be used as anything but a commuter car. (Namely, EV's are entirely useless for long-haul driving, with the even the longest range vehicles only providing less than 1/4 of that needed for a long haul trip. And no, you can't quick charge without MAJOR upgrades to the infrastructure.)
Doing the lion's share of your driving on batt., charging slowly at home, and still having the gas capacity for a long-range trip is a good compromise, and one that I think will carry us through the next couple of decades of auto development.
SirWired
P.S. I'm surprised at the number of articles that are so impressed that the engine isn't connected to the drive wheels. This is how locomotives have worked for decades, albeit for different reasons.
I'd rather have more batteries (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:I'd rather have more batteries (Score:5, Interesting)
The article explains this. Apparently their research shows that the 40 mile all-electric range hits the sweet-spot for most American commuters.
Make the batteries bigger and you still have to have the gas engine for when you visit your cousin 300 miles away. Make the batteries smaller and you need to run the gas engine even for your daily commute.
Sounds like the perfect compromise to me.
The shopping use case. (Score:3, Interesting)
Make the batteries bigger and you still have to have the gas engine for when you visit your cousin 300 miles away.
It's not for longer trips that pure EV's get killed. It's the every Saturday when you have to run to the grocery store, bank, stop by your mother in laws, pick up some stuff at Best Buy, and you drive 150 miles running errands use case. Our leaders never mention this case though, because they actually don't drive for themselves.
Re:The shopping use case. (Score:4, Insightful)
and you drive 150 miles running errands use case
Do people really do that? In a civilized area, like the semi-rural midwest, we can and do go 75 on the highways, so thats TWO FREAKING HOURS of your valuable weekend time spent behind the wheel. In less civilized coastie areas, I hear coasties and big city types proudly "brag" about how their highways are so congested they never get much above 15, implying TEN FREAKING HOURS behind the wheel. I mean, come on, Saturday is only 24 hours long, not counting eating, sleeping, getting called from work, etc. Learn to use amazon.com and spend some of that TEN FREAKING HOURS having fun instead of going "vroom vroom".
The other part I never figured out, is all the retail activity tends to be concentrated on certain areas/roads. I do everything on that list, except visit granny, in one little two mile long, six lane wide road thats packed with retail, thats about four miles from my house. Even if I intentionally drove back and forth for each trip, I still couldn't drive more than 30 miles or so.
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Make the batteries bigger and you still have to have the gas engine for when you visit your cousin 300 miles away.
It's not for longer trips that pure EV's get killed. It's the every Saturday when you have to run to the grocery store, bank, stop by your mother in laws, pick up some stuff at Best Buy, and you drive 150 miles running errands use case. Our leaders never mention this case though, because they actually don't drive for themselves.
150 miles? If you're averaging 30 mph (whilst driving), that's 5 hours of driving. Just how far away is your Best Buy, grocery store and bank?
Ok, but what about costs? (Score:2)
If it is cheaper to refill the battery with the gasoline engine, then I suspect that only hard core environmentalists will plug their Volt every night. But if the gasoline engine is more expensive, the Volt could become a hit for a
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I know that in the UK, hybrids/battery vehicles have always been massively cheaper to run off mains electricity than on petrol(gasoline) or diesel. But that's with current electricity prices of £0.05($0.08?)/kWh (night-time rate, usually around £0.17($0.27)/kWh daytime) and gas/diesel at £1.079/litre ($6.53/US Gal).
YMMV in other countries (literally)
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The socket is much cheaper.
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Battery should be cheaper (Score:3, Interesting)
The battery should be cheaper, by far, because its a lot easier to dig coal out of the ground, have one big engine convert it to electricity and ship it over a wire, than it is to build container ships and oil drilling and refining apparatus send you energy that you can convert.
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It should be a couple cents to recharge fully, nomatter where you live.
But that full charge only gives 40 miles, so... hmm..
If you're worried that it'll break the bank, shut a lightbulb off somewhere.
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Not sure whether it's your math or their's, but Popular Mechanics' numbers have a huge price difference driving even a Prius vs a Volt or Tesla Roadster. When you're outside the range of the Volt's battery, things look similar to driving a Prius. Inside the 30-mile range, the Volt is less than half the cost of the Prius.
On the other hand, the Tesla Roadster (the high end sporty car from Tesla) will do a 200 mile trip for less than half the cost of a Prius OR a Volt. Just $4.40 to go 200 miles in a ridiculou
WSJ subscription IS required (Score:2)
Suffice it to say, my interest in the actual story has waned since it doesn't s
Performance isn't the question most want to know (Score:3, Insightful)
What we want to know is, what is the mileage when operating on the range extender?
So if you hop in your Volt and head to Grandma's house a few states over, what is the mileage per gallon?
While I like the concept of the Volt, paying $40k for a vehicle the size of a Cobalt/Focus doesn't appeal to me unless its off the grid mileage is better than average as well. I do not want a car just for commuting.
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I agree. Mileage is exactly what I thought the article was about when I read the title. Acceleration? I never thought for a SECOND that there was ANY question about that, as the gas engine is totally decoupled from the drivetrain. What an utterly worthless article.
Mileage? (Score:2)
Maybe I'm just an obnoxious Prius driver, but when the article promised a review of the performance of the Volt in gas-only mode, I was expecting to hear what the equivalent mileage is. As another poster responded, "duh" about the electric motor performance being identical. I'd rather hear about the overall system efficiency in gas mode.
Read article without subscribing (Score:4, Informative)
Diesel/petrol electric isn't very efficient (Score:2)
Its mechanically very simple and robust (which is why its used in railway and shipping applications) but its very inefficient compared to attaching the engine direct to the wheels. I wonder why GM have chosen to do it this way? Cost? To me it rather defeats some of the enviromental benefits of this vehicle as it will probablt use more fuel when in this mode than a normal car.
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The engine can run at constant RPM, at which it is by far most efficient; in typical cars not only this isn't the case, but the severity of losses greatly depends on the driver.
Plus you can use regenerative breaking.
The problem is the price vs the prius. (Score:2)
230 MPG... well maybe more like 50 (Score:3, Informative)
More Like An Ad (Score:2, Informative)
The Volt weighs 3500 pounds (Score:2)
Inaccurate statement about transmissions (Score:3, Informative)
FTFA:
The biggest difference between a gas-power versus an electric-power car is that there's no transmission. Electric motors don't need gears or gear shifts.
While the Volt may not have a transmission in the same sense that most gasoline vehicles do, it is not correct to say that "electric motors don't need gears or gear shifts." The author of the article seems to be confusing three terms: gear, gear shift, and transmission. They are 3 different things.