On Retirement, Israeli General Takes Credit for Stuxnet Attacks 334
dinscott writes "Last month, The New York Times ran a story about Stuxnet having been developed by the Americans and the Israelis as a part of a joint project, but it was based on claims by confidential sources. It now seems that the information from these sources was correct. The Haaretz — Israel's oldest daily newspaper — reports on a surprising video that was played at a party organized for General Gabi Ashkenazi's last day on the job."
the video claims Israeli involvement (Score:3)
Did I miss something in the article, where does it confirm US involvement?
Re:the video claims Israeli involvement (Score:5, Funny)
However the Bible, the world's first and oldest printed book, fails to mention any aspect of this story, including the General's involvement.
You obviously forgot to check the Apocrypha.
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The first rule of slashvertizing is you DONT talk about slashvertising.
Re:the video claims Israeli involvement (Score:5, Insightful)
However the Bible, the world's first and oldest printed book, fails to mention any aspect of this story, including the General's involvement.
I didn't know they had translated the bible to Chinese thousand years ago...
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The Haaretz â" Israel's oldest daily newspaper â" reports
However the Bible, the world's first and oldest printed book, fails to mention any aspect of this story, including the General's involvement.
I didn't know they had translated the bible to Chinese thousand years ago...
I didn't know the Chinese had invented movable type thousand years ago.
The devil is in the details. The Chinese and Koreans had a process of printing that used movable type as part of the process, but the task of making the plates needed for each page was so laborious that few books were printed that way.
From wikipedia [wikipedia.org]: During the reign of Chingli, [1041â"1048] Bi Sheng, a man of unofficial position, made movable type. His method was as follows: he took sticky clay and cut in it characters as thin as
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However, the claim he was answering to was "the Bible, the world's first and oldest printed book", which is clearly and provably false, not "the first that was printed cheaply enough for Europeans".
Re:the video claims Israeli involvement (Score:5, Insightful)
What part about the movable-type printing press -- albeit with more expensive ceramic letters -- being invented by the 1040 AD by Bi Sheng in China, did you fail to understand? Basically before being snarky and condescending, do make sure that you're not the one who's the ignorant idiot.
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Next you'll be claiming that the Chinese invented gunpowder, noodles and the compass as well.
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The best Chinese invention is the fork. Kind of puts chopsticks in perspective.
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Well worldy scholars and scientists have known for quite some time that the Bible outweighs the Haaretz here by a pound to a pound and a half sometimes, outweighs the Talmud sometimes by three to four pounds, outweighs that mighty Koran sometimes by five to ten pounds. You think about that.
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The bible is about as fictional as listening to WWI stories from the son of a vet who served there.
While accurate in a broad sense the details may or may not be so accurate. The bible's biggest problem is that it has been translated so many times that the original hebrew and greek versions differ from the modern day versions.
And if you use the King James version you are specifically using a version dumbed down by a king to make it easier for the stupid people to understand.
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Says who.
Israel has a lot more to lose with a nuclear Iran than does the US, and they have been doing deep projects like this since dirt.
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Iran, even if they ever did manage to create a nuclear bomb, would never drop it on Israel, because the entire Arab world would turn against them. Why? Wind. The prevailing winds in the region would blow the fallout from Israel to the northeast, over Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, and maybe even Iran to the Caspian Sea. Otherwise, it would get blown over Saudi Arabia or Egypt.
As backward or simple as some may perceive Iran to be, I'm sure they know that fallout doesn't stay in the immediate blast zone.
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The entire Arab World would be too busy dancing in the streets to blame anyone.
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This is absolutely true. Actually, the Arabs don't care about Israel very much at all, and have certainly never celebrated attacks on Israel or the US, its sole Western supporter. The guys with sign boards saying things like "Death to Israel!" and "Drive them into the Sea" are in fact Jewish actors hired by Mossad to justify Israeli aggression against the Middle East. What you think is "the streets of Iran" is in fact a blue-screen television studio in the basement of a government building in Tel Aviv. Why,
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There are governments and media corporations with pro-Israel interests. There are governments and media corporations with anti-Israel interests. Some of these groups represent extreme views, others more moderate. But each one has a bias and its output will reflect its interests.
You, OTOH, are erecting a crazy straw man, harming Israel by painting such a ridiculously polarised picture that you overshadow reasoned argument from those moderates who try to defend Israel.
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Hamas has always sounded to me like a Spanish verb that needs conjugation: hamo, hamas, hama, hamamos, hamais, haman.
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When Iran get nukes instead it will be "Bahrain - you've got a nice island there, shame if somebody nuked it. Want to buy some insurance?"
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You are forgetting the Shi'ite vs. Sunni civil war. The Iranian Regime doesn't give a flying rat's ass about the Israelis one way or another except that the Sunni Arabs hate the Israelis. The Iranians believe if they are the ones to knock off Israel, either with a nuke or their dogs Hezbollah, then the Shi'ites will be seen as the true branch of Islam. They aren't particular how they do it, and if a bunch of Sunni's die in the process, that's less opposition for the Shi'ites.
Religion is here to save humanit
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Israel already has an established software industry without aid from the US.
Most people (in SW industry) I know from Israel have their background in Silicon Valley and most companies have their background on people who met while working in States. Again most (if not all) do not have USA governmental support, but US private sector had lost lots of brilliant people to Israel software industry. While this is true for some other countries as well, I guess Israel has a bigger percentage when normalized in population etc.
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Cyber terrorisim (Score:5, Insightful)
So did he get added to the "no fly" and terrorist watch lists?
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Yeah, but then he just hacked the no-fly list and its like it never even happened.
Re:Cyber terrorisim (Score:5, Insightful)
Of course not, he's a Freedom Fighter (tm).
Remember, it's not terrorism if the US or its allies does it.
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It's not murder if a cop shoots an armed person who draws a gun on them. It's not a felony for law enforcement officers to carry concealed weapons. It's not assault when a doctor cuts you open with a knife. It's not theft when a banker takes your money and puts it in the bank's vault.
Is it really so hard to understand that every nation gives a few sanctioned individuals the legal right to do what needs to be done, but can still make it illegal for everyone else?
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If you like, we can allow Iran to test out their new toy on your house.
. So I assume you wouldn't mind Israel treating your house like it were on the Gaza strip, your family like Palestinians, and in the end using their toys on your neighbourhood, just because Iran might be developing a similar toy to those Israel already has for years?
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My definition of terrorism has something to do with actual violence against civilians.
What, like bulldozing people's homes, often without giving them the chance to retrieve any posessions? Attacking schools with helicopter gunships when the children are outside playing? Herding people into ghettos and forcing them into makeshift camps?
Make the Israelis play nice first.
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well my friends,the term terrorism (or freedom fighting) is used when a non-goverment organization commits an act against the law of the country in which it is commited.
That's complete bollocks. A company dodging taxes would be terrorism by that definition. Terrorism is the use of attacks against a population in order to coerce the government into accepting your demands.
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Because attacking first is rarely considered to be "self defense"
Everything you need to know (Score:5, Insightful)
In other words, it confirms nothing.
Re:Everything you need to know (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Everything you need to know (Score:4, Funny)
According to Google translate it was the "Stoxnat" virus. Completely different critter entirely.
Nothing to see here, move along.
Re:Everything you need to know (Score:4, Insightful)
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Have there actually been declared war on a nation since WW2? Only declarations of war i can think of are the war on drugs and, more recent, war on terrorism...
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Yeah, my first thought was:
Ah, so the good general 'took one for the team' as he was stepping down, so everyone could STFU.
He wouldn't be the first to put themselves at personal risk out of a sense of duty and/or honour(as they see it), precariously assuming the above is close, purely on speculation, and from a 'what if...' point of view.
Not much from TFA or TFS to go on, so I see it as all speculation and guesswork at this stage.
A general stepping down vaguely mentioned some statement that 'yeah, it was me
Redundant (Score:3, Informative)
"The Haaretz" is redundant since the Hebrew prefix 'ha' means 'the'.
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Not nearly as " The LaBrea Tar Pits" ... which when rendered in 100% English ends up being "the the tar tar pits".
For those who don't know, LaBrea Tar Pits (redundant I know) is a archeological dig site of oil tar pools where prehistoric mammals like SaberTooth Tigers and Giant Sloths (not to be confused with Cowboy Neal), fell trapped to their deaths. You can see parts of it in the movie Volcano, which takes part near the site.
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"The Haaretz" is redundant since the Hebrew prefix 'ha' means 'the'.
Just like pedantic slashdotter is redundant? ;-)
Or is that Ha!slashdotter!
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err... learn Hebrew please.
Meh, I tried... According to Google translate the Hebrew Haaretz translated into English is Haaretz, and Haaretz in English translated into Hebrew is something that looks like: Y7Xi7.
This is clearly 1337 for "Why Transmit It" (Y TX iT), or possibly "Why, Transmit It!"; Both of which are, IMO, good names for a newspaper.
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Y7Xi7....This is clearly 1337 for "Why Transmit It" (Y TX iT), or possibly "Why, Transmit It!"
That's clearly a perl script.
Now there's a surprise (Score:2)
So this general takes credit for a virus that could still be working silently away, screwing the Iranians at every turn, if it had been competently written.
Quelle surprise!
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So this general takes credit for a virus that could still be working silently away, screwing the Iranians at every turn, if it had been competently written.
In the current issue of Internet Tough Guy Monthly:
Stuxnet: why you can write better code than the Israeli/American military-industrial complex.
Someone's taking the piss.. (Score:2)
General Ashke-NAZI?
Urban Dictionary:"1. Ashke
Word meaning "beloved" in the language of the Tayledra people. The Tayledras are a silver haired race of people from Mercedes Lackey's fiction novels."
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi [wikipedia.org]
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Now Microsoft closes the hole (Score:2)
Ahmadinejad's Hypocrisy (Score:3)
Ahmadinejad craves Western technology while rejecting the social structure necessary to create that technology. They are the biggest bunch of hypocrites.
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Really, how does "social structure" translate into creating technology? I'm sure places like India would love to know how they're making microchips while lacking this vital piece of civilization.
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As much as O'Reilly annoys me, I really, sincerely hope that you are able to recognize satire when you see it and are just hoping for some karma by being sarcastic or trolling. For the benefit of the doubt and for my sanity, I'll presume the latter.
Why not me? (Score:2)
Why no one claims that I wrote it?
It would be just as plausible.
Misattribution (Score:5, Funny)
Technically speaking, Microsoft really deserves more of the credit than Gabi Ashkenazi.
So, in less sensationalist terms. (Score:2)
During the farewell ceremony for the Israeli army's chief of staff a video was shown that summarized the events of his term, that video included news reports about stuxnet and the attack on the nuclear reactor in Syria.
So it is all right then ? (Score:2)
If Iran/pakistan/n.korea/... had created Stuxnet and it had targetted military infrastructure in the UK/USA/Israel/... imagine the broohaha, the passionate outpourings from politicians, the chasing down of those who wrote it.
But the USA/Israel did it: so that somehow makes it OK ?
Does Israel have nuclear weapons? (Score:2)
They have neither denied nor confirmed this. But it doesn't matter. What matters, is, that Israel's neighbors think that they might have nuclear weapons. Which is a great deterrent against starting a war with Israel.
Did Israel develop Stuxnet? And are they capable of creating even more nasty computer weapons? Again, it is very formidable, to have your enemies think that you have stuff . . . even if you don't. So this could be a clever disinformation leak . . . or maybe not . . .
Terrible, misquoted translation... (Score:5, Informative)
During the generals retirement party, news coverage of both the Stuxnet and the Syrian reactor attack was shown, probably as part of a recent army related events montage. This was no power-point slide titled "recent accomplishments". The conclusion drawn here are akin to claiming that the US was responsible for the recent unrest in Egypt, since news coverage of that even was played at the retirement party of a state secretary...
Israel may have been responsible for these events, but I'd hardly say this "evidence" is conclusive
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Re:Beautiful (Score:5, Informative)
You're operating on outdated ideas there.
First, the Quran does not say that, I think you're getting such a ridiculous notion from a neocon/zionist/Islamophobe. No "real Palestinian" (who?) would tell you that.
Second, look at The Palestine Papers [aljazeera.net]. The Palestinian government just fell because the PA was scandalously offering to give away Jerusalem and most of Palestine with nothing in return, and yet Netanyahu's government rejected the offers.
Thirdly, the president of Iran is such a red herring. Does he control the military? No. Did he say "wipe Israel off the map?" No. To quote his exact words in Farsi: "Imam ghoft een rezhim-e ishghalgar-e qods bayad az safheh-ye ruzgar mahv shavad." No such idiom exists in Persian, and Ahmadinejad actually just quoted an old speech of Khomeini in which he said “The occupation regime (over Jerusalem) must vanish from the page of time.” It's not about tanks going into Israel, but more like how Regan said the USSR would one day only exist in a history book. Of course Ahmadinejad does wish Israel would disappear, but he is not the Supreme Leader so he cannot make such an order. It's like the US Secretary of the Interior saying Iran should be invaded, he has no authority to do so. Believe it or not, Ahmadinejad denies he is anti-Semitic, he supports Jewish leaders in Iran and groups like Naturei Karta, and insists he is anti-Zionist, not anti-Judaism.
Re:Beautiful (Score:4, Interesting)
[quote] No. Did he say "wipe Israel off the map?" No. To quote his exact words in Farsi: "Imam ghoft een rezhim-e ishghalgar-e qods bayad az safheh-ye ruzgar mahv shavad." No such idiom exists in Persian, and Ahmadinejad actually just quoted an old speech of Khomeini in which he said “The occupation regime (over Jerusalem) must vanish from the page of time.” [/quote]
Maybe people who say things like: "The occupation regime (over Jerusalem) must vanish from the page of time.” Should stop being suck fucking morons and stop saying shit like that because things like that will be interpreted by a lot of people fanatic muslims, anti-muslims, the whole western world , and a lot of people i forget to mention here, as: "We should wipe Israel of the map"
It can either be that he is to dumb to realize that quotes like that will just flame the hatred because people interpret it as calls for agression, but my guess is that if he's got the brain to get to be leader of a country, he fully realizes that...
You can be all 'he didn't say that, and he meant it in a good way' but that's bullshit... He knows he says thing that can be interpreted in a wrong way.... even if he doesn't comprehend that he shouldn't lead a country anyway....
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Re:Beautiful (Score:5, Insightful)
"Nobody is saying "he meant it in a good way," but there's quite a difference in what he actually said and people interpreting it as a sign of genocidal intent."
It is reasonable to suppose that the interpretation of genocidal intent might be reasonable given the throngs of thousands chanting "Death To Israel" many weeks per year for for 32 years, and the support for Hezbollah which has an explicitly exterminationist policy.
If the interpretation was "we want Israel to change its policies to have a much more satisfactory resolution so that Jews and Arabs will live peaceably", that clarification could have been offered.
But as far as I am aware, the ratio of that vs "Death To Israel" is something like zero to 30,000.
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I think the phrase is lost in translation. In Persian, it means "Down with Israel," rather than the idea of killing everyone there that everyone is led to think. It doesn't mean killing or wiping everyone out.
When Mousavi was running in the presidential election against Ahmadinejad, the latter was giving away free potatoes to the crowds. Mousavi's followers didn't like that, and started the rallying cry "Death to Potatoes." [huffingtonpost.com]
Re:Beautiful (Score:5, Informative)
Hamas doesn't want peace with Israel in the long term:
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp [yale.edu]
The only peace they want is one where Israel is wiped out.
Fatah's old charter also stated similar stuff: http://www.alzaytouna.net/arabic/?c=1598&a=97061 [alzaytouna.net]
Article (8) The Israeli existence in Palestine is a Zionist invasion with a colonial expansive base, and it is a natural ally to colonialism and international imperialism.
Article (12) Complete liberation of Palestine, and eradication of Zionist economic, political, military and cultural existence.
Article (19) Armed struggle is a strategy and not a tactic, and the Palestinian Arab People's armed revolution is a decisive factor in the liberation fight and in uprooting the Zionist existence, and this struggle will not cease unless the Zionist state is demolished and Palestine is completely liberated.
Apparently their new one no longer calls for Israel's destruction. http://jta.org/news/article/2010/01/27/1010372/new-fatah-charter-omits-negationist-language [jta.org]
But there will be problems as long as most of them continue to hold on to the popular "radical/extremist Islam" concepts listed here: http://www.tawfikhamid.com/abcs-test-for-radical-islam/ [tawfikhamid.com]
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From what I've read and heard, the Israeli view of the Middle East is that they really ARE out to get them. I'm sure they're quite likely to err on the side of pessimistic estimates of their neighbors enmity, because that's how they view recent history.
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But there's the problem, if you act paranoid and bomb your neighbors, who in turn get pissed and start organizing military in defense, then suddenly you begin assuming your paranoia was valid all along. Case in point, Hizbullah didn't exist until after 1982, when Israel invaded Lebanon and then began claiming sections of it as Israeli land promised to it by God.
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Hezbollah was created after the Amal militia proved ineffective against the Sunni's and Christians. Stop kidding yourself, the Israelis were simply the local boogie-man Hezbollah trots out to scare the locals into supporting it.
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Really, if that's the case, then let's look at their founding manifesto. In 1985, they listed their goals (from wikipedia [wikipedia.org]):
Re:Beautiful (Score:5, Insightful)
How is Israel "keeping the Middle East nuclear-free" when it is widely regarded to have at least 100 nuclear weapons of its own? The Dimona Nuclear Complex [everything2.com] is not exactly a secret.
Re:serious for a moment (Score:5, Interesting)
I would argue that all the points you make do in fact point to "Bully" and that is never a good thing.
Not to pick bones, but "Her inception" to all the other countries there, basically meant that someone came and took the land away from them! Of course they are annoyed and angry about it!
Does Israel get a pretty short straw? Absolutely, but I do have to say that I don't believe that they are making it easier for themselves. For the most part, that can be said about most nations in that region. The biggest player on a field should earn the respect of the other players and get them to follow suit rather than simply intimidating, running clandestine operations and in your words "assassinating nuclear scientists in other countries".
There aren't many fundamentalists compared to moderates, but every time one of them is killed, all the moderates close to that person will feel just that little more tired, angry or plain out infuriated - giving a net result of more fundamentalists. On the other hand, each act of compassion, each charitable hand extended will keep the moderates calm and you might even find a few of the fundamentalists starting to question violence.*
Stop the cycle of violence. BE the bigger man you claim you are.
* This idea really works anywhere in the world, not just the middle east. When will people figure out that the carrot will always win over the stick.
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> There aren't many fundamentalists compared to
> moderates
Is this gut feeling, or do you have data? If the latter, can you cite?
Also, do note that "moderate" might mean different things in different places if you're simply defining it in terms of the population median. If that's the case, you may be interested in http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/02/egypt-vs-indonesia-in-attitudes/ [discovermagazine.com] and can of course not provide data to support the initial claim, since it becomes true by definition.
> Sto
Re:serious for a moment (Score:5, Insightful)
This is a tangent, but it's funny to me how what are called the "moderate Arab states" have been the most repressive, either socio-religiously (Saudi Arabia), or politically (Jordan and the Persian Gulf states).
Sadly, a lot of different factors combined to destroy the only multi-cultural democracy in the Middle East: Lebanon.
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Sadly, a lot of different factors combined to destroy the only multi-cultural democracy in the Middle East: Lebanon.
Haven't those factors been at play for quite some time now? Of course the current state can be traced down to the last 40 years, but I've understood Lebanon has been attacked countless times due to it's geographical location and water supplies in the last few thousand years.
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Sadly, a lot of different factors combined to destroy the only multi-cultural democracy in the Middle East: Lebanon.
You mean Iran, the muslim brotherhood(along with their splinter groups?) I really don't consider that a lot of different factors. I'd simply call it 'we hate the jews, and everyone will die for the cause!' "pushing the jews into the sea!!!!!111!"
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Iraq seems mulit-culti to me. Kurds, Shia, Sunni, Turkmens...and well, there used to be Jews, Christians, and Ba'hai, but not any more. Even Saudi Arabia has a significant minority of Shi'ites, whom they piss on regularly with discriminatory laws.
Saudi Arabia is called a moderate state? (Score:2)
I think it's understood that Saudi laws are crazy, what with the hand cutting and the sex segregation and whatever else goes with some of their stifling, barbaric tribal traditions.
If you ask any arab about Saudi Arabia, they'll tell you that the only good things about current Saudi Arabia are money and dates.
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. . .basically meant that someone came and took the land away from them! Of course they are annoyed and angry about it!
This is not accurate, though it's not entirely inaccurate, either. Some Palestinians left when fighting began, some were encouraged to leave and some were forced to leave.
I don't care to minimize the losses that have been suffered by forcibly displaced Palestinians, but I don't care to hear this canard repeated, either. In 1948, several Arab nations offered refuge until their armies destroyed the nascent Jewish state.
There is, by the way, one more thing worth noting: The land which Israel recognizes at i
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Bingo, and one just small epicycle to add: after WWII, the British were in no mood to stay in colonies that yielded no economic benefits, such as, Palestine. And they would have left much sooner such as before the war except for latent anti-Jewish sentiment in the British government and their Arab friends in Palestine.
And one of those friends was the grand-mufti of Jerusalem who, much to the distaste of the Brits, spent time in Berlin licking Hitler's boots, thought Hitler had the right idea about how to so
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Desperate times call for desperate measures. And Iran is indeed in a tough neighborhood where every single day, hour, second... Every single moment is a desperate time. Ever since her inception the US and Israel tried to annihilate her. That is why there is a policy of development when it comes to the nuclear weapons. And assassinations of the nuclear scientists by Iran's enemies shows that they are doing something right. And bombings of their reactors and finally yes -- the virus.
FTFY. Remember, the major reason for Iran's military buildup is exterior threats (and the fact that it's working only reinforces that [ynet.co.il]).
And for any of you who would point a finger at the "neighborhood bully" -- remember, that you do not live in that neighborhood.
Yeah, but if I did live in, say, the Gaza strip, and the neighbour used Collective Punishment [wikipedia.org] (a war crime) on my society for democratically choosing, in an election [wikipedia.org] described as "free, transparent and without violence", someone they didn't like, then I'd probably work damn hard to fight for my freedom and escape from beneath their boot heel too.
Re:serious for a moment (Score:4, Interesting)
Punishing people as a group for the actions of their freely elected government does not in fact strike me as collective punishment. Israel has certainly engaged in collective punishment in the past, but the Gaza/Hamas example seems poorly chosen.
If you allow that as an example of collective punishment, then would you consider economic sanctions collective punishment? What about imposing tariffs that lead to unemployment and hardship in the target country?
What about a declaration of war against an a country that has a draft?
Heck, is there any way you can think of to prosecute a war at all without effectively engaging on collective punishment?
I agree that it would be really nice if wars weren't fought, of course. But I don't see how one can be fought with modern weapons between modern states or any semblance thereof without ending up in collective punishment territory, with the exception of blitzkrieg campaigns with limited objectives like the 1967 Arab-Israeli war (and even that arguably had collective punishment as part of the consequences)...
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Every wonder what conditions have to be in place before extremists get elected to power like Hamas?
Have a look at the history behind the Nazi parties rise to power for a good example.
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Yes. The Nazis also claimed it was the fault of the Jews, and the bicyclists.
You may ask, "Why the bicyclists?"
And one would answer, "Why the Jews?"
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But in Hamas's case they can point around them and say "It's the fault of the Jews' and they wouldn't be wrong would they.
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And apparently, all for nothing [washingtonpost.com].
In an underground chamber near the Iranian city of Natanz, a network of surveillance cameras offers the outside world a rare glimpse into Iran's largest nuclear facility. The cameras were installed by U.N. inspectors to keep tabs on Iran's nuclear progress, but last year they recorded something unexpected: workers hauling away crate after crate of broken equipment.
In a six-month period between late 2009 and last spring, U.N. officials watched in amazement as Iran dismantled more than 10 percent of the Natanz plant's 9,000 centrifuge machines used to enrich uranium. Then, just as remarkably, hundreds of new machines arrived at the plant to replace the ones that were lost.
Despite the disgusting assassination of scientists and cyberwarfare, Iran's still in business. If nothing else, it taught Iran how to cope with losing intelligence and resources.
Re:serious for a moment (Score:5, Interesting)
That may have been the case for decades, but look, it's 2011. The facts have changed since the 1960s.
Egypt today has a peace treaty with Egypt and a separate one with Jordan. Israel and Turkey have a mutual defense treaty, and Turkey is a NATO member so attacking Israel will bring about massive retaliation from North American and European allies. Iraq, supposedly "Israel's greatest threat today" according to Ariel Sharon, is no longer a threat. I'd say that the neighborhood is far safer than it was 50 years ago; do you still see Israeli planes being hijacked?
Israel is one of the richest countries, with a GDP per capita bigger than Spain or South Korea. The US gives it billions of dollars in military aid and Most Favored Nation free trade status. Does anyone seriously think Israel is under threat of no longer existing?
Israel is generally safe from most of its neighbors. Maybe it would be even safer if it stops its policy of bashing all Arabs (as Israeli FM Avigdor Liberman does) or provoking its neighbors to anger by Israeli MKs referring to Arabs as "worms."
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Turkey is a NATO member...
That means next to nothing. Iraq was not hindered when it attacked Turkey (actually the Kurds there, but as they were not recognized they attacked Turkey). And it did not stop the US from declaring war on the Netherlands (another NATO member) for housing the International Court of Justice
Re:serious for a moment (Score:4, Informative)
You're an idiot.
Not quite, actually
First of all, USA does not provide Israel with any help. . .
Yes, actually, it does. Israel currently receives more than $3 billion in (mostly military) aid from the US of A.
Jews compose no more than 0.3% . . . 30% of Nobel prizes . . . this is why they flourish.
You're wrong again. I won't dispute the statistics, but I will dispute the conclusion. They (oops, We) flourish because of a strong tradition of academic study, necessitated by the sheer volume that one needs to learn before Bar Mitzvah (and Bat Mitzvah for the more modern Jew). Further, in some areas of the world, Jews were forbidden from owning land (see the definition of "ghetto") so they were, by necessity, forced into academia, banking and other "service" occupations.
There was a single attack on the USA, and it went to war with another country. There is a terrorist attack on Israel every day. . .
Again, you grossly mis-charactarize, and ignore certain facts. The attack that brought down the World Trade Center (WTC) wasn't the first on that pair of buildings. Further, there was another (not of middle-east origin) terrorist attack in Oklahoma several years before the WTC was brought down. To make matters worse, we have more money than we deserve, and our president at the time was an authoritarian zealot.
I don't care to suggest that Israel, and Jews more generally don't have a difficult time, but your posting shows an ignorance that can't go without some response.
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Gaza Strip, illegal occupation of land, assassination of foreign nationals who are nuclear scientists, bombings of Iraqi and Syrian reactors, cyber warfare against Iran.
Seriously, where does Israel think this aggression doctrine will end? Maybe the government needs to swap out of 'King David hotel' mode and build some bridges?
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Gaza Strip, illegal occupation of land, assassination of foreign nationals who are nuclear scientists, bombings of Iraqi and Syrian reactors, cyber warfare against Iran.
Is that a list, or a sentence? Are you ignoring 50, 500 or 5000 years of history in that list?
Why do you assume that it's only Israeli aggression? I don't think that the middle east would look like it did (does?) if Israel were the only aggressor. You imply a simplicity that does not exist.
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You're right the Israeli government is not alone in belligerency and oppression in the region but for some reason the western governments tend to hold them up as some kind of great example and ignore what they are doing to their neighbors.
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You're correct, it was an alleged nuclear research facility which I guess makes it all right then.
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You couldn't possibly be referring to this terrorist group http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun [wikipedia.org]. You know those huys that were murdering and blowing up British soldiers in Palestine, hmm, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irgun_attacks [wikipedia.org], bloody long list of terrorist attacks.
It would seem a terrorist territory, born of violence has simply continued down that path. Yes I know, it's all their fault for complaining and seeking assistance from neighbouring territories when they were being herded into reserva
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Later Irgun's forces merged into the the IDF and there is a path from Irgun through Herut to todays Likud party.
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