Microsoft Taking Apple's Walled Garden Approach For Metro Apps 389
New submitter gauauu writes "Microsoft will be taking a walled-garden approach to Metro apps, only allowing enterprises and developers to side-load Metro apps in Windows 8, while everyone else will have to go through the Windows Store. Note that this only applies to Metro apps; the model for traditional desktop apps won't change."
Great (Score:2)
Let Microsoft HTMLv5 stay Microsoft HTMLv5. The same with Javascript.
I don't want that crap anyway near anything else! Win-win situation.
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So you mean they have Embraced HTML5 then Extended it?
I wonder what step would come next.
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So you mean they have Embraced HTML5 then Extended it? I wonder what step would come next.
The obviously logical thing to do is to extend an existing technology, what would you do instead? Try come up with a competing incompatible technology? Why would you not use an existing one?
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Damn new kids with their 7 digit ids. The old joke you missed is Embrace, Extend, Extinguish. Woosh on you kiddo. Now, get off my lawn.
I'm well aware of it, ever since MS announced adoption of HTML5 people have been throwing out the old adage of EEE without any understanding of why it doesn't even make sense in this situation. Nice try with your grandpa status though.
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The only thing different is that the DOM exposes additional API for application-specific behavior
I imagine that the only way to interact with some peripherals, such as the camera and microphone, will involve additional DOM APIs that are exposed to Microsoft-approved Metro style applications and not to traditional HTAs.
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I imagine that the only way to interact with some peripherals, such as the camera and microphone, will involve additional DOM APIs that are exposed to Microsoft-approved Metro style applications and not to traditional HTAs.
Yes. You get the same WinRT APIs that are exposed to .NET and C++, barring language-specific differences (e.g. mapping of collections or dates).
Whether to rely on that functionality (and hence have to use those APIs) is up to the developer, of course. It's quite possible to write a portable app since you can call different platform-specific APIs conditionally, and have some safe fallback or reduced functionality mode for when they are not available.
Re:Great (Score:4, Insightful)
Windows 8 is being released because Microsoft wants and needs a response to the iPad. That is all.
No, Windows 8 is being released because it is the scheduled time to release a new version of Windows. Microsoft's tablet computing dates back to 1991, but the current push started in with a special version of XP which was later incorporated into the main version of Vista.
This work with Metro is just an evolution of their Tablet PC idea rather than a recent knee jerk reaction to iOS. Some of the user interface ideas hark back to Windows Media Center. The idea of using HTML for metro apps was done with Active Desktop and Windows Sidebar. The walled garden approach is the same as what they do for the Xbox Live (and probably would have already had if the original Windows Marketplace had been a success).
Sure, Microsoft will be keeping an eye on what the competition is doing, but Windows 8 is merely another step in the direction that the OS has been heading for quite some time.
And it begins... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:And it begins... (Score:5, Interesting)
Or the beginning. This will make it easier to illustrate to people the advantages of an open system such as Linux or BSD or Haiku...
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What'd you guys expect when you went on a non-stop campaign to poo-poo Microsoft over every vulnerability? That they'd suddely Open Source all their products?
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Err, I expect Microsoft continue their antagonistic business practices that they've been engaging in for the last 20 years, including their unmitigated hostility to FOSS and user choice (that is, real choice and not "which Microsoft platform do you want to use?")
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Microsoft can't pay their bills with "Free". Neither can you.
Why SHOULD they promote non-Microsoft platforms?
Re:And it begins... (Score:4, Insightful)
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So then you replace the bootloader like we do on locked down embedded devices.
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Sony v. Hotz (Score:2)
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I thought it was St. Hotz now.
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Well OK, fine, you give a real-world example, and so we can examine exactly how this attempt to control the desktop hardware turned out: Pretty poorly, if you ask me. Most laptops you get at Best Buy right now do not have a Trusted Platform Module (TPM). Business laptops do, where it's generally considered a fairly desirable feature (for reasons having nothing to do with DRM). If anything, though, the idea of "a TPM for every desktop" seems to mostly have been abandoned. I don't really see Microsoft making
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Assuming you can even run something else. On most ARM platforms this is just short of impossible, and I expect that it will be made deliberately difficult on x86 in the future.
To run something else, buy other than Windows (Score:2)
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I can run Android on Android tablets, but running pretty much anything else (i.e. non-Android Linux platforms) is a pain due to the chaos Google has sewn in the driver space. Never mind upgrading the kernel when Google moves on to a new one, time for half-functional Backports Ahoy!
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This is utter bullshit. I run a desktop linux on a Z2, even replaced the bootloader. Lots of people run alternate firmware on routers, etc.
Maybe you mean you lack the technical skill to do this, but for many arm platforms replacing the OS is a reality. Most just would not want to or know how.
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Have you tried swapping the kernel out on a non-Xoom Motorola device? How about running a non-Android OS (say, Fedora) with no loss of functionality? You can't, due to all the closed user space drivers and undocumented bits.
You do? What distro? I'm guessing you're making do without hardware acceleration from your SoC and possibly have other hardware that is non-functional.
I do,
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I have a different kernel on my Droid 1. I have run ubuntu in a chroot and vnced to that.
I run debian on the Z2 and all the hardware is supported.
I agree the hardware vendors need to get their shit together. Google should make GPLed drivers a requirement for android branding.
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The Verizon release had no kernel signature, the Milestone had kexec as a nice hole to exploit.
Which is one way to do it, but suboptimal in all situations due to the memory consumption and interface latency.
Really? Where'd you get the GPU drivers for Xorg from? Certainly not Qualcomm, as they don't support anything but Android and Windows Phone.
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Why not linux? Why not BSD?
Why not an OS that has not even been written yet?
I have no windows computers in my home, I bet many on slashdot are the same. Oh yeah, your just a pathetic troll, that is why.
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No one said takeover the market. They were presented as options for people who do not want to be constrained to a walled market.
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Actually I do play some PC games. All of it via wine and its commercial counterpart CrossOver.
I feel about windows the way you feel about the linux distributions that you named. Having to install third party software just to use a webcam floored me. Then when that software had to be reinstalled just to fix an issue after some other software was installed I was reminded of why I do not use windows.
It's very profitable, after all (Score:2)
Most companies would kill to get a 1/3 cut on every program sold.
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Most companies would kill to get a 1/3 cut on every program sold.
Brick and mortar stores already do. As does Steam, as well as many other online services.
Thing is, most smaller developers would rather be coding than spending their lives dealing with processing/billing/installation/supply chain issues, so paying someone 30% off the top to handle all that is actually a good deal. Small developers selling cheap apps would probably lose most of that to credit card processing fees anyway. Big developers like Adobe and Autodesk do get a bit screwed, but I won't be losing an
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Most companies would kill to get a 1/3 cut on every program sold.
Brick and mortar stores already do.
Not exactly. They get a cut only from what they sell, not from what competitors sell. I believe Nimey meant that by making themselves the sole source of Metro apps they are ensuring a cut from every program sold as competitors cannot exist.
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Yeah, but it works for Apple because people are willing to overlook vendor lock-in for a variety of reasons (which I won't go into here). It's not going to work for Microsoft - at least not as well as they hope it is going to work.
This, it seems a little like "cargo-cult" thinking by Microsoft to me. Still, they might pull it off. I'm suspending judgement until they Actually ship Windows 8, god knows they've backpedaled on all kinds of features in their OS releases before.
Just the start (Score:5, Insightful)
The Metro interface (as well as the WinRT APIs) are covered by this policy going forward. So this means that ARM devices from MS will be locked down, as well as the Metro half of any desktop/x86 platform. Eventually they will deprecate the older APIs and you will only have the WinRT/Metro APIs.
Microsoft is very much gunning to enforce a Walled Garden across all products that run their OS. I half expect them to make a hardwired TPM key a requirement for a Windows 8 (possibly later) logo, which they'll use against the user to keep them trapped in the Walled Garden. After that, it's just a matter of making it impossible to install other OSes (Motorola style) and they'll have the market domination and exclusion of FOSS they've always wanted.
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i'll gladly keep dpkg even on the old battered laptop w/ a single core @1.8ghz that weights like your mom.
So how are you going to find replacements for parts of your laptop that eventually wear out, such as the keyboard, screen, and rechargeable battery?
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USB and the power cord.
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oh linux u get better w/ time while the others frantically go up and down
Re:Just the start (Score:5, Funny)
And Linux starts to look that much better.
So you're predicting 2012 will be the Year of the Linux Desktop?
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Motorola failed at that, you know that right?
Droid 2 and X are now supported by Cyanogenmod.
They would also have to ban all emulators and VMs, like apple does on the iphone. I don't see that happening anytime soon.
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Really? They loaded a new kernel? How?
Or are they using the same old kernel, with work around hacks?
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Eventually they will deprecate he older APIs
Bullshit. They aren't going to deprecate the apis that form the backbone of the millions of applications that keep people on windows. There is no way it'll happen.
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Sure they will. Oh sure, enterprise will be able to maintain older APIs. But they're solidly targeting the mass market consumer level stuff and leveraging their position to push developers to move to the new APIs. After all, if you want to be on Windows 8 ARM, you need to use the new APIs.
They're just getting started. Don't proclaim their plans are impossible just as they're getting them off the ground.
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Huh?
Run them off? What are you blathering about? I expect them to work slowly and deliberately to migrate everyone, and to bend over backwards to keep "enterprise" on Windows.
Non-enterprise users will be pushed rapidly, and MS will use their size to force the issue.
To all who said "but the iPhone is not a computer" (Score:5, Insightful)
To all who said about Apple's lock-down "but the iPhone is not a computer", this was always the end game. The argument was that the iPhone is not a computer (a general-purpose platform), therefore it's OK to restrict what users can do with it. (And besides, they said, we'll still have our PCs.) They confused cause and effect. The iPhone is not a computer because it is locked-down.
With Apple making money hand over fist, it should be no surprise that Microsoft wants in. Will they succeed in their attempt at control? I don't know. But I'm certainly not going to make excuses for them.
Don't give me the any flak about hating Apple. My desktop is a Mac. But my new laptop runs Linux.
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The Metro interface (as well as the WinRT APIs) are covered by this policy going forward. So this means that ARM devices from MS will be locked down, as well as the Metro half of any desktop/x86 platform.
No, that is not true, ARM will still have the Desktop application and will still be able to run desktop .Net applications, not just Metro ones.
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Microsoft has been trying to figure out how to fight the notion of open source, and especially Free Software, for more than a decade. [catb.org]
Wait (Score:4, Insightful)
Stallman was right (Score:5, Insightful)
Now, how crazy does he seem? He experienced the lock down that mainframes had and now we're experiencing the same things with smaller computers. Back then IBM (among others) also tracked your software and made sure things just ran.
It'll be interesting to see how Windows Power Users deal with this. They'll have to look to IT to be set up as a user who can "side-load" an application. Like that will happen.
Re:Stallman was right (Score:5, Insightful)
Windows Power User = knows how to change the default wallpaper, but can't code.
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At least Apple users have geniuses available to ask.
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Windows Power User = knows how to change the default wallpaper, but can't code.
The user is rarely a coder. That is never going to change.
The operating systems that best serve the needs of users are the ones that see mass market adoption ----
and keep armies of programmers gainfully employed.
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When I saw this article and the direction the computer industry is headed, I thought: "RMS must be spinning in his grave." (...And he's not even dead.)
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I wouldn't be surprised if RMS has been making regular trips out to the family plot, just to get a head start. He's going to be doing a lot of grave-spinning one day (hopefully, in the far future).
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It'll be interesting to see how Windows Power Users deal with this. They'll have to look to IT to be set up as a user who can "side-load" an application. Like that will happen.
No. Microsoft is totally confusing everybody by referring to all software now as "apps." They talk about "Metro-style apps" and "desktop apps." Get that out of your head. Think of it as "Metro apps" and "desktop applications."
Nothing is changing about any of your traditional Windows applications. Nothing. Microsoft is adding some new APIs and tweaking others, but it's up to you whether you want to use them or not. Office 2003 will still run on Windows 8. There is not going to be any Metro version of Photosh
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They'll probably just flip the bit to dev-unlock their machines.
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Until the APIs the traditional desktop are no longer available, or they use ARM where you can't distribute software via any other means.
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You keep saying that. Why would Microsoft keep the older APIs around for ages when they're explicitly trying to retire them and move on?
Experiments (Score:4, Insightful)
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Borg icon (Score:2)
Microsoft just wants to get rid of that Borg-icon on slashdot. And out of desperation they're copying Apple because they have a much friendlier icon.
the model for traditional desktop apps won't chang (Score:2)
For now.
Register as a developer (Score:2)
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Costs money on top of a fairly expensive device.
VS Express and Windows SDK (Score:3)
Microsoft has ALWAYS charged for developers
Then how did I manage to install Visual Studio Express Editions and Windows SDK on a Windows 7 PC without paying more than bandwidth?
Boycott (Score:5, Insightful)
So don't buy Windows 8. Stick with 7 or switch to Linux.
quote from the article.... (Score:3)
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"A primer for Windows developers on Microsoft’s website states that distribution of traditional desktop applications will proceed as usual. “Open distribution: retail stores, web, private networks, individual sharing, and so on” will be allowed"....
This tidbit is NOT like how apple does things. The one thing i hate about Apples walled garden is that I have to pay $99 a year to test an app on an actual device that I OWN. I know Apple will say that they want their users to have a "good experience" or whatever but if i want to write an app that will heat up *my* phone so much that it makes the phone literally explode i should have every right to do so and if someone comes to me and wants to try an app that I wrote on his/her phone without getting a certificate key and wants to take the risk of his/her phone exploding in their hand then that is the risk that they should accept, understanding that kind of behavior isn't covered under his/her phones warranty.
Shhhhh this is a Microsoft rant article. Reason is not welcome here.
Actually, it's worse than Apple (Score:3)
On the Mac, Apple makes no such restrictions. The developer tools are free, and you can load any app you want on your machine. The $99 Mac membership is only for some special perks like having Apple engineers review your code, and WWDC session videos. This makes Windows 8 far more locked down than OS X.
Windows Mobile 7, Metro on ARM, and iOS are even. They all require MS/Apple to sign off on the app.
life outside the walled garden (Score:4, Insightful)
I got my first android phone a couple months ago. For my daughter. I wanted an app that automatically turns the ringer off during class, then back on afterwards. All automagic so she couldn't forget. I found at least 5-10 apps in the android marketplace that do this.
App #1 installed with complaints. The first time the phone rang, the app crashed.
App #2 installed okay, but wouldn't start automatically.
App #3 acted like it worked. But you could still hear the phone ring even though the app claimed that it was silenced.
App #4 almost works as advertised. It's supposed to "mute w/vibrate" but doesn't vibrate. Just mute. Good enough!
It was a shitty, frustrating experience that made me appreciate what a "curated" app store offers. On the flipside, There's no app like this at all for iPhone or WP7. So maybe android's motto should be "we let you do more...badly" ;)
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Sounds about right. For someone who's been using a Mac for a couple of years, it's like going back in time to the bad old days of Windows '9x. The platform promises the world and it all looks very pretty but when it comes to actually doing something useful, you spend just as long messing around as you do doing anything useful.
I bought an Android phone myself and it's the first phone I've ever seriously considered buying myself out of the contract of just to change it early. Partly my own fault for buying a
Slow down and THINK (Score:3)
For f***'s sake people, please read TFA and understand before posting. They are talking about Metro apps only. Desktop apps are not locked down any more than in any previous Windows versions (or OS X or Linux). If you don't like it, don't use Metro. Use the standard Windows desktop.
In a way, this sort of reminds me of the Ubuntu/Unity debate. Either you like Unity or you don't. I happen to be in the latter category, and I can choose not to use it. Just like Metro. I did not go into panic mode when Unity became the default, I simply learned how to select the standard desktop and went on with my life.
I can understand the direction they are going with this, trying to compete with iDevices, and it doesn't bother me at all. Now, if they start to lock down the desktop itself, get out the pitchforks and torches or switch to something else. But please stop this over-reacting.
By the way, I regularly use Windows, Linux and iOS devices and occasionally *BSD. I use the right tool for the job; there is no one-size-fits-all multi-tool, although Linux is the closest in this regard. All are useful for specific tasks.
Side-load? (Score:3)
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Which has dick all to do with being a Walled Garden and everything to do with the store being managed.
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What android app russian roulette are you referring too?
Google has removed and will continue to remove such apps from their market. Sure installing pirated apps might get you something terrible, but the security permissions would have told you that.
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Any app that has access might do that. What you call trojan, I call undocumented functionality. Any app that says it can access private data should be assumed to be recording it and sending it back to the mothership. Such is the way of closed software, no way around it. On iOS I would have my app check the date, or a webpage, or for some other sign to turn evil after it gets a big enough install base if I want to avoid being caught during apples little audit.
You're a nutjob. I am no fanboy, just using what
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Sometimes what defines malware for some is a wanted "feature" for others.
http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/national/T110918002842.htm [yomiuri.co.jp]
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"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin
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I think for Apple to incur that sort of attention they'd need to threaten to ban a developer from the App Store for listing their software in the app store for other platforms. They'd also need to make a habit out of doing so.
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Apple would also need to be a monopoly.
Last time I checked they weren't even a majority of either the desktop, laptop or smartphone markets. MP3 player, sure, but you don't have to buy from iTunes to get your music there.
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There are many stores, and no one store has a monopoly. Also, I can forgo brick and mortar stores these days if I wish. But with Metro/WinRT or iOS you must go through the store or you do not get to sell (or even be available) at all. So surrender 30% of your sales price (and increase it accordingly) or you are out of business.
Re:Just another monopoly (Score:4, Insightful)
Microsoft is planning to have a monopoly on sales of Metro apps, but there's nothing to say that they'll do the same for Windows8 desktop apps. Very likely, they'll continue as they have since the dawn of time, possibly imitating Apple's App Store in the Windows context as well in order to compete.
But neither Microsoft nor Apple have a monopoly on the mobile market. Even combined, their numbers are dwarfed by Android phones + tablets. There's plenty of choice out there. If you don't like it, vote with your dollars. Not that Android is a panacea; there are issues on that side. But to claim that these are illegal monopolies that need to be broken up is just silly.
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Indeed, hardware vendors should be forced to sell "open" hardware.
As we don't have to buy 5 devices anymore just to get 5 different apps, this is much better for the environment. This alone justifies that rule.
Re:Just another monopoly (Score:5, Insightful)
One day you will learn what a monopoly is in the eyes of the Law, and your poor little mind will simply melt.
Hint: Apple is not a monopoly, in precisely the same way Ford isn't a monopoly for being the only manufacturer of Ford vehicles.
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The -1 Does Not Agree With Hivemind didn't take long to find you.
To burn up even more hater points I'll quote you since I don't have points to give you.
Dog-Cow:
"One day you will learn what a monopoly is in the eyes of the Law, and your poor little mind will simply melt.
Hint: Apple is not a monopoly, in precisely the same way Ford isn't a monopoly for being the only manufacturer of Ford vehicles."
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However, before we all go after them for that, remember that Apple is also doing this.
If you're talking about Apple's desktop app store, there's no requirement for developers to distribute through the app store. As far as I know, selling your app through the app store doesn't give you greater access to OSX APIs.
Not that I don't fear the "walled garden" concept, but just to point out that what Microsoft is doing seems to be even worse than what Apple is doing.
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Apple copied that whole hardware-content bundling business-model from Amazon.
Where Apple really copied it (Score:2)
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This is possible only in x86 version, not in ARM version. Unlike the other-architecture versions of Windows NT 3 and 4, the ARM version of Windows 8 will not include an ARM port of the classic desktop.
Everybody keeps talking about this as if it's some kind of massive blow. Are you really surprised? This is typical Microsoft marketing:
1.) Announce that there will be an ARM version of Windows. Everyone rejoices!
2.) Remind everyone that the ARM version will not run x86 software. Everyone admits this is true and mumbles.
3.) Announce that the ARM version won't even include a Windows desktop. Everyone starts wondering what makes it Windows.
4.) Ship "the ARM version of Windows" only on tablets and phones and on
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Tech companies are just giving consumers what we want - less complexity. Perhaps our government is, as well. Scary.