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KDE GUI Software Technology

KDE 4.8 RC 1 Now Available 140

Posted by timothy
from the many-thousands-of-hours-of-work dept.
jrepin writes with this quote from an article at Phoronix: "Just in time for some holiday testing, the KDE SC 4.8 Release Candidate is now available. The final release of KDE 4.8 is about one month away, but now the release candidate is available to ensure it shapes up to be a solid release. Among the features of KDE Software Compilation 4.8 is support for Qt Quick in Plasma Workspaces, quite visible improvements to the Dolphin file-manager, KSecretService is now available as a shared password storage pool, and there's many performance improvements. Lots of bug fixes (measured in hundreds) can also be found in KDE 4.8."
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KDE 4.8 RC 1 Now Available

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  • Serious Question (Score:4, Interesting)

    by CastrTroy (595695) on Thursday December 22, 2011 @05:28PM (#38464902) Homepage
    Serious Question

    Which major distributions still come with KDE as the default option. There used to be Mandrake/Mandriva, but that's pretty dead now. I guess Fedora and RedHat still use it, but RedHat is mostly for servers, so the desktop doesn't really matter that much, and I don't hear much about Fedora anymore. Seems like KDE is still very actively developed, but you have to go out of your way (Kubuntu) to even use it.
    • Serious Reply (Score:5, Informative)

      by Bill, Shooter of Bul (629286) on Thursday December 22, 2011 @05:31PM (#38464926) Journal

      OpenSuse.

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward

      Slackware uses KDE as default

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by Anonymous Coward

        Slackware uses KDE as default

        Yep, Slackware threw out the window GNOME many years ago, all the while keeping those 3-4 GTK+ useful applications.
        The best decision they ever took. A pity some major distros never followed suit.

      • by jbolden (176878)

        Just as an aside, Slackware doesn't even have Gnome as a package. You actually have to get one of the other distributions based on slackware to setup Gnome.

        Though also it is important to note, this is about the degree of vertical integration required and predates the latest issues regarding Gnome2 -> Gnome3.

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward

      OpenSUSE uses it as the default desktop. That is probably your best bet as many KDE developers are using that distro.

      I prefer the Fedora KDE spin as the nicest distro, but I am partial to yum.

      Other notable distros using KDE by default: Pardus, Chakra, Slackware, PC-BSD.

    • Re:Serious Question (Score:4, Informative)

      by icebike (68054) * on Thursday December 22, 2011 @05:35PM (#38464978)

      OpenSuse, Kubuntu, and several others not cloned off of Ubuntu come with KDE. Some have it as the first choice, but not all are so single minded as to not offer a choice like Ubuntu.

      You don't have to go out of your way, you just have to expand your horizon beyond your little Ubuntu world.

      • Re:Serious Question (Score:5, Informative)

        by Kjella (173770) on Thursday December 22, 2011 @06:26PM (#38465618) Homepage

        Some have it as the first choice, but not all are so single minded as to not offer a choice like Ubuntu.

        sudo apt-get install kubuntu-desktop and log in to KDE. All the *buntu variants actually point to the same repositories, you pick one during download but if you want more they're an apt-get away. I'd call it one less confusing step for a new user, how should he know how to answer? Give him the defaults of what he downloaded and trust that power users can use 30 seconds on Google to find out...

        • Re:Serious Question (Score:4, Interesting)

          by icebike (68054) * on Thursday December 22, 2011 @08:19PM (#38466664)

          Some have it as the first choice, but not all are so single minded as to not offer a choice like Ubuntu.

          sudo apt-get install kubuntu-desktop and log in to KDE.

          Reading comprehension 101:

          Offering a choice means being given a selection of desktops to to install when you are installing.
          Suse does it.
          Slackware does it.
          Fedora does it.

          Ubuntu can't be bothered.

          I find it condescending how you suggest offering "no choice" at install time is somehow protecting the new user.
          The new user may be years away from doing an apt-get. But they can pick from a list, because they have all been to a Restaurant in the past.

          • Re:Serious Question (Score:4, Informative)

            by Belial6 (794905) on Thursday December 22, 2011 @09:41PM (#38467402)
            You have the choice both before and after installation. If you know before you do the install, then you just use the Kubuntu install disk. If you decide after the install, you run the apt-get command. Having only two point that you make the choice instead of 3 doesn't mean there is not choice.
          • by Kjella (173770)

            The new user may be years away from doing an apt-get. But they can pick from a list, because they have all been to a Restaurant in the past.

            It'll do about as much good as an untranslated Thai menu, people know what food is when they order. Okay, so you've decided that you should try this "Linux" thing. But, wait there's so many distros like OpenSuse, Fedora, Mandriva, Debian, Mint but okay most recommend Ubuntu. But wait, even if you've picked Ubuntu they're still going go give you a choice of GNOME, KDE, XFCE and maybe even some more obscure ones and I dare you to explain that as simply as you could a menu of beef, chicken and fish. Okay so it

            • by DrXym (126579)
              Exactly. It's intimidating and a redundant question since if you don't know the answer then what purpose is there in asking the question in the first place? And if you do know the answer then you should be using a dist which supports your preference. Windows doesn't ask what desktop you want, it just gives it to you one. Same for OS X. I don't see why Linux dists should be any different.
              • by mcgrew (92797) *

                Windows doesn't ask what desktop you want, it just gives it to you one. Same for OS X. I don't see why Linux dists should be any different.

                Sam Houston's Ice Cream Parlor has vanilla ice cream. Harry Wombat's Parlor has Chocolate. Howard Johnson's has 38 flavors. Which ice cream parlor is best?

                I moved from Windows to Linux because in Windows, it's the Microsoft way or the highway. With Linux, I have it like I want it. If my only desktop choice was Gnome, I'd probably have stuck with Windows.

                Choice is GOOD. T

                • by DrXym (126579)
                  That analogy isn't a remotely comparable. And no choice is not good if the consumer has no idea what the answer is to the question.
                  • by mcgrew (92797) *

                    Of course it is. Would Ford be a better car company if they only offered the Mustang? Would Mustangs be better if you had no choice whether it had AC, a radio, heated seats, and you had to use whatever color they picked? I get the idea that you're being deliberately dense.

                    The choice is between having a choice and having no choice. I guess you prefer the USSR's one political party?

                    And no choice is not good if the consumer has no idea what the answer is to the question.

                    So you prefer that people remain ignoran

                    • by DrXym (126579)
                      Well seeing you want to go down the car analogy, the point is would be like Ford asking you if you want to install driving control system A or driving control system B in your car and your order is on hold until you decide. When pressed on what the exact difference is between A and B you are told they more or less do the same thing but A is intuitive but lacking advanced features whereas B covers everything but is quite complex. But you can look through 10 years of flamewars to consider their respective mer
          • by DrXym (126579) on Friday December 23, 2011 @06:43AM (#38469746)

            I find it condescending how you suggest offering "no choice" at install time is somehow protecting the new user.

            How the hell is a new user supposed to know or care why there are bunch of different desktops, all of which do more or less the same thing but in different ways? How the hell is a new user meant to pick apart the war of words that has been going on for over a decade over which desktop is supposed to be the best.

            The sensible thing for any dist is to pick one desktop and be done with it. If someone is in any way informed on the matter they will choose a dist which matches their preference, or will know how to install an alternative post-install.

            So yes it is protecting the new user since it relieves them a question that they don't know the answer to, and of downloading a larger iso file. Arguably it also protects the dist since they don't have to waste time & resources supporting multiple desktops with all the overheads in support and bug fixing entailed by that.

        • sudo apt-get install kubuntu-desktop and log in to KDE

          ...after downloading a few hundred MB of new apps and libraries to replace the few hundred MB of old apps and libraries that the user probably didn't want in the first place if they were trying for a KDE desktop.

      • Re:Serious Question (Score:4, Informative)

        by Jane Q. Public (1010737) on Thursday December 22, 2011 @06:58PM (#38465950)
        I agree with Kjella. Ubuntu does offer a choice, and it's called Kubuntu.

        And if you install regular Ubuntu with Unity and don't like it (and most people don't, I think), then install KDE and you're good to go in a few short minutes.
        • And if you install regular Ubuntu with Unity and don't like it (and most people don't, I think)

          I think people accustomed to GNOME 2.32 or KDE or XFCE, or power users, will dislike Unity. But for someone trying Linux for the first time, who is not especially technical I think they'll take five minutes to adapt and then use it without a second thought. The biggest problem I had with Unity when it first came out in Ubuntu 11.04 was not anything in its design, it was the fact that it kept crashing. But w
          • In a usability test I read about the other day (TechCrunch I believe, but I don't remember for sure, and don't have a link saved), new users hated Gnome, did not much care for Unity, but found KDE to be "pleasantly familiar".

            Among experienced users: they almost invariably hated Unity, many of them liked Gnome, but the consensus was still that KDE was pretty clearly the winner.
    • by Anonymous Coward

      Aptosid

    • by Outtascope (972222) on Thursday December 22, 2011 @05:36PM (#38465000)
      Kubuntu is hardly going "out of your way to use it".
      • by couchslug (175151)

        "Kubuntu is hardly going "out of your way to use it"."

        Windows users don't like installing software.... ......oh......(runs)

    • aptosid, slackware, kubuntu, debian come to mind immediately. How is that out of your way?

    • Seems like KDE is still very actively developed, but you have to go out of your way (Kubuntu) to even use it.

      How is getting/installing Kubuntu going out of your way?

      • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 22, 2011 @06:13PM (#38465464)

        Because "nobody" knows about KUbuntu. People getting into Linux for the first time pick Ubuntu, because that's what they've heard about, and they have no idea that Kubuntu even exists, let alone what it means, what Unity is, what KDE is, what Gnome is, or anything else that you take for granted.

        The end result is that people are getting an exposure to "Linux" thinking "Linux = Unity", and by implication, "Linux sucks - this is garbage". They could, instead, be getting exposed to KDE, which does not suck, but the Ubuntu maintainers are too proud to admit that they have made a mistake, even with overwhelming feedback from the community.

        Don't take YOUR level of linux knowledge as representative of everyone's. Most people have no idea that unlike most OSs, you can pick different desktop environments like KDE or Gnome or XFCE. It isn't something they necessarily even want to understand. If it's more complex than "Push this single download button" on your distro's download page, then in a very real sense people DO have to go out of their way to get KDE. And they don't know that they can, by and large.

        • To be fair, the average new Ubuntu user probably is going to benefit from a dumbed-down interface like Unity. Having tons of config options will overwhelm most non-power users. That's the whole reason Canonical is running with it.
          • No, according to Canonical themselves, the "whole reason" they went with Unity is that they didn't like the new Gnome.
            • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

              by Anonymous Coward

              Judging by how Unity turned out, I think they felt that Gnome 3 wasn't crippled, frustrating, or slow enough.

              • Have you run Ubuntu 11.10? Unity was too buggy to be usable in Ubuntu 11.04, at least for me. But I'm a long time Ubuntu users so I gave 11.10 a try, and Unity runs fine.
        • by Anonymous Coward

          I laugh at the mess Ubuntu fanboys have made. They worked so hard trying to make the Ubuntu mono culture a reality. Now, for the first time they're considering how stupid it was. For the first time they're actually expanding their horizons and trying things on other distributions. They're finding out that Linux + GNU + GNOME/KDE isn't all that different from distribution to distribution. Sure there's different package managers... but GIMP is still GIMP. Gnome is still Gnome (with a different wallpaper

        • by jbolden (176878)

          The unity around Ubuntu was because Ubuntu was essentially universally regarded as the easiest desktop to use. One of two things will happen:

          a) The move to Unity will be successful and Ubuntu will continue to be the easiest desktop. New users who don't Unity will discover that Linux means choice quickly.

          b) The move to Unity will be unsuccessful and the beginner Linux distribution will fragment again, like it was before Ubuntu. That will create the space for lots of differently tailored beginner level

        • by Rob Y. (110975)

          Right. I don't think Kubuntu is directly related to Ubuntu. It's certainly not offered as a download choice at ubuntu.com, which is where most newbies would go. But apparently (according to other posts here), the standard Ubuntu repositories do host the bits to support kubuntu's desktop stuff. Other distros support GNOME and KDE out of the box, but Canonical hasn't taken that approach. Presumably, that's because their approach is to simplify things and have there be 'one Linux' as much as possible (a r

        • by mcgrew (92797) *

          People getting into Linux for the first time pick Ubuntu, because that's what they've heard about, and they have no idea that Kubuntu even exists, let alone what it means, what Unity is, what KDE is, what Gnome is, or anything else that you take for granted.

          That's your own fault. The only people in meatspace I know that heve even heard of Linux know that "unlike most OSs, you can pick different desktop environments like KDE or Gnome or XFCE" because I tell them when I clue them in that there's a free, super

    • by Anonymous Coward

      sabayon

    • Sabayon [sabayon.org] has a KDE version that's very good on updates and default configuration. Sabayon is based on Gentoo but doesn't do all of the compiling. Yes, that negates the advantage Gentoo had but you still get the rolling release and you can still use portage if needed.
      • by Anonymous Coward

        I use Sabayon with KDE for both my desktop and netbook. It is very good (but not perfect). I definitively prefer it over kubuntu.

    • Seems like KDE is still very actively developed, but you have to go out of your way (Kubuntu) to even use it.

      sudo apt-get install kubuntu-desktop

    • by Anonymous Coward

      Off the top of my head the following have KDE as the default option or as a high profile spin...
      openSUSE
      Kubuntu
      Kororaa
      Slackware
      PCLinuxOS
      Mageia
      Mandriva
      Chakra
      PC-BSD
      Fedora has a KDE spin
      Mint has a KDE spin

      Not sure how it would be considered "out of your way" to find a KDE-friendly distribution.

    • Serious Question

      Which major distributions still come with KDE as the default option.

      Serious answer: Kubuntu.

    • Re:Serious Question (Score:4, Informative)

      by unixisc (2429386) on Friday December 23, 2011 @01:17AM (#38468424)
      PC-BSD. Version 9 is the first that offers one a choice of GNOME, KDE, LXDE and XFCE as fully integrated DEs, while Awesome, Enlightenment, IceWM, ScrotWM and WindowMaker are available, but not fully integrated - one probably has to use the CUI to run the BSD utilities on them. But aside from that, those too will work.

      Then there are all the other distros mentioned above. And typically, while Gnome may be the default, most distros, during installation, offer one the option of installing KDE instead.
    • by Anonymous Coward

      Mandriva is hardly dead. It is not as popular as it used to be but it is still maintained and used. And there is its recent offshoot Mageia which also defaults to KDE.

    • by jbolden (176878)

      RedHat defaults to Gnome, a good chunk of Gnome development is paid for by RedHat. You are getting some good answers below. Suse being the big one. But Kanotix is the one I'd add to the list.

    • by mcgrew (92797) *

      Which major distributions still come with KDE as the default option.

      I've been using kubuntu, but I may go back to Mandriva

      There used to be Mandrake/Mandriva, but that's pretty dead now.

      Well, I heard that which is why I switched to kubuntu -- but it appears Mandriva's death is greatly exaggerated. I DLed a copy of their newest distro that just came out a couple of months ago. It's been so long since I used it it'll be a test run when I install it. I kind of have to do an OS install, the hard drive on my main

  • Ok, what is this?

    They just barely got Kwallet working and now something totally new?

    • by Anonymous Coward

      They heard you like cross desktop integration, KSecretService seems to be some kind of DBUS thingy, http://www.devheads.net/desktop/kde/core/kwalletksecretsservice-git-workflow.htm

    • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 22, 2011 @05:45PM (#38465106)

      What an ugly name. I'd much prefer the tagline: With KDE, KGB protects you.

    • Re:KSecretService (Score:5, Interesting)

      by qbast (1265706) on Thursday December 22, 2011 @05:59PM (#38465270)
      As usual, KDE has something working for years, then gnomies create something from scratch (with 100% more DBUS or whatever buzzword is popular that week), stick it on freedesktop and start screaming for KDE devs to switch, because this is now "standard".
      • by smash (1351)
        Exactly. As i mentioned yesterday, bicycle-shedding....
      • by Osgeld (1900440)

        I debate your assumption of KDE 4.anything "working" let alone "for years"

        • by tang0th (2492446)
          Then its obvious that you do not use KDE. I use KDE and it works perfectly.
        • by mcgrew (92797) *

          I was running kubuntu 9 and nothing seemed broken to me. 11.1 is even better. I may DL the new KDE just to see if they've added any major improvements, or bugs, or hosed something that was already perfect.

  • by cadeon (977561) on Thursday December 22, 2011 @06:18PM (#38465530)

    I like KDE. I don't hear that said often, though. So I figured I'd say it, and relate my excitement and thanks for all the hard work that's gone into this impending new release.

    Thanks, devs.

    • by rwa2 (4391) *

      Same here... I really like playing with KDE in KNOPPIX [knopper.net], but it has never quite made it to my desktop for some reason. I suppose I just like the simplicity of gnome-terminal (once I hide the menubar and scrollbar), and am also more familiar with how to strip down gnome-panel to the bare essentials. I don't really use much else from the desktop environment outside of those and the window manager.

      Haven't really played with KNOPPIX much lately, mostly because I like running 64-bit systems. Ooh, looks like K

    • by Anonymous Coward

      I, too, really like KDE.

    • by Anonymous Coward

      Me too. Looks great and works great. For something that is free and that polished is awesome

    • When I first tried Ubuntu, years ago, I didn't like the Gnome desktop very much. I installed the Kubuntu desktop, tried switching between them a few times, and settled on the KDE. I have seen no reason to go back. Unity has nothing to offer me, and so far I have never been a big fan of Gnome.
    • by Anonymous Coward

      It's the best desktop going right now if you haven't drunk the "dumb it down" cool-aid like, well.... damn near every other environment on every other OS.

      So yeah, KDE rocks.

    • by Anonymous Coward

      I love kde and a host of open source applications that make it awesome.

      http://www.mozilla.org/en-US/thunderbird/
      http://k3b.plainblack.com/
      http://gparted.sourceforge.net/
      http://www.openoffice.org/
      http://www.openssh.org/
      http://www.pidgin.im/
      http://www.eclipse.org/
      http://www.apachefriends.org/en/xampp-linux.html

      Just to name a few.

  • by warrax_666 (144623) on Thursday December 22, 2011 @06:35PM (#38465692)

    Running RC1 on my Kubuntu and it seems that we've finally arrived at where 3.5 was... only kidding.

    I realize that the 4.0-4.3 releases were "experimental" and should never have been pushed as defaults by distros, but...

    I may still give up on KDE (weren't expecting that, were you?). Personally, I think tiling window managers are way more efficient once you get past the initial learning curve. Most of the KDE programs are great (Kate, Okteta, Gwenview, etc), but the whole desktop...? Not sold.

    • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward

      Window Behavior -> Advanced -> Enable Tiling

    • You don't like KDE's tiling support, or you don't know about it?

    • by noahm (4459)

      I use awesome [naquadah.org] with KDE in quite a few places and find it to be a generally excellent combination. The procedure for doing so is documented on the awesome wiki [naquadah.org].

      noah

  • and yet i clicked the link...
  • by nonmaskable (452595) on Thursday December 22, 2011 @08:49PM (#38466944)

    I've been a KDE fan since 1.x, but one of the worst pieces of OSS I've ever used was in KDE 4.7 -- KMail 2. I thought it might just be me, but a little research showed that every distro shipping it has had many angry users. For me on OpenSUSE it's been an endless source of lost incoming and outgoing mail, performance problems, and generally horrible bugs. Totally broken development process -- the problems were widely reported during at beta, but ignored since KDE leadership insists on pushing the buggy/leaky Akonadi-Nepomuk stuff regardless of what it means to end users. I'll give KMail in 4.8 another chance, but I don't hold out much hope -- it's been years since Akonadi was introduced and everything associated with it has been a disaster.

    The rest of KDE 4.7 is absolutely terrific though.

    • by neuro88 (674248)
      Kmail2 has been a nightmare for me as well. I've switched to thunderbird and while it's not terrible, I don't particularly care for it. I'm hoping kmail2 will eventually be un-fucked so I can switch back.

      In KDE 4.7, I have issues where sometimes when I click on apps in the task manager, it doesn't bring them up. I get this on my desktop and laptop (Kubuntu). It generally takes another click or 2 for it to work.

      I have another issue where sometimes I get 2 programs overlapping in the task manager (you s
    • by claus.wilke (51904) on Friday December 23, 2011 @12:20AM (#38468200)

      I just switched to KMail 2 in 4.7.4, and so far it's working out nicely---definitely better than the old KMail. I was quite apprehensive, because I have a complex setup, with multiple IMAP accounts, local mail storage, several identities, and so on, and I had read all the issues people have. But it's working like a charm, and even mail folders with several thousand mails are snappy.

      I think there has been a lot of progress since the first official release of KMail2 in 4.7, so I'd definitely give it another try.

      Some of the most annoying bugs, like KMail IMAP not surviving a sleep-wake cycle or a brief network outage, are finally gone.

    • by unixisc (2429386)
      I found KMail pretty mediocre in KDE 3.5, but used it only for GMail. However, I'd be interested to see whether it's improved since.
  • I really don't understand all the complaints I have read about KDE. So many complain about requiring a massive system to run KDE but I just don't see it. I have a Thinkpad with the Intel graphics chips and an IdeaPad 10-2 with the Intel graphics chipset and both machines run the latest KDE great. My Thinkpad has a modest set of desktop effects enabled and while running my laptop display of 1680x1050 and my 20" LCD display with 1600x900 my laptop doesn't skip a beat. My wife's IdeaPad only has 1 GB of ram a
    • by DrXym (126579)
      My biggest complaint about KDE is it doesn't know when less is more. The UI is packed with too many menus, buttons, configuration settings, dialogs within dialogs. It's just a busy, complex desktop. Arguably GNOME 3 is too cut to the bone and lacking in certain settings but I have no doubt in my mind which desktop is the easiest to use out of the box.
  • I have been running Ubuntu and Kubuntu for several years now. Ubuntu is dual boot with WinXP, and Kubuntu is on an external drive. Only one CPU here.

    I am leaning towards the Gnome desktop for a couple of reasons. The first and most annoying is the KDE Wallet. The second is load and reaction time. The third is reaction speed. Gnome is reacting faster than KDE. The fourth is just today KDE (Kubuntu) had 278 updates and Gnome (Ubuntu) only had 144. I try to keep both systems similar (same addons from basic i
  • I love how every release never seems to finish the ``feature plan'' list always listing a large portion as `in progress.' You might want to clean up those Release Plans to what has been actually accomplished in a cumulative list and what still needs to be done and then the final, ``future plans.''

    By the way, it's all about the Apps and as usual most of these apps that are good are just the utility apps like Kate or GwenView with the rare Digikam or Gimp/Inkscape for GNOME/GTK+. When in the hell is the core

  • tinge_of_nostaliga() (Score:3, Interesting)

    by aussersterne (212916) on Friday December 23, 2011 @01:04AM (#38468368) Homepage

    It was KDE4 that started my migration away from Linux after fifteen years of hardcore Linux use, advocacy, development, etc. (The pending arrival of GNOME 3 sealed the deal, but it was KDE4 that happened first.)

    I still miss Linux, sometimes—the ethic, the openness.

    Too bad things didn't work out and Linux didn't ever "arrive" at the same UI quality level as Mac OS or even Windows. But I still have a very soft spot in my heart for Linux and I am continually tempted to install the latest Fedora release in a VM just to have it around. No particular need though—don't actually know what I'd run in it—so I haven't yet.

    • The plain truth is that a development community of volunteers with a few corporate backers spending a total across the industry of maybe a few billion dollars per year on all aspects of free software are not going to match companies like Apple and Microsoft that each spend many billions of dollars per year on user interface alone.

      I wish I could tell people that free software is engineered better, less buggy, easier to install, and more aesthetically appealing in all respects than proprietary software.
  • Few questions I have:
    • Does 4.8 now work w/ Wayland, and are there any BSD or Linux distros that come w/ Wayland, either in addition to, or instead of, X?
    • Does the latest Konqueror support HTML5? I'd like to be able to watch YouTube w/o Konqueror throwing up on the Flash compatibility
    • What is the latest status on Rekonq? Is it at least version 1.x as yet? And is it the default browser on KDE, or is that just a Kubuntu thing?
  • I have been using KDE since the summer when I migrated from Gnome to KDE. I'd always used Gnome because it was the Red Hat/Fedora default, but Gnome 3 was cripplingly unusable.

    KDE rocks! Please, KDE developers, DO NOT SCREW THIS DESKTOP ENVIRONMENT UP! Keep doing what you're doing!

    I expect Gnome 3 in a year or so to be a footnote in the long list of attempts to give people what they don't want, along with the new Coke and the TNIV Bible.

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