Navy May Use Mine-Detecting Dolphins In the Straight of Hormuz 204
New submitter cervesaebraciator writes "The Atlantic Wire reports that the Navy has a tested solution to the possible mining of the Strait of Hormuz. The Navy has 80 dolphins in San Diego Bay trained to use their own sonar to detect mines. When they find the mines, the dolphins drop an acoustic transponder nearby, so that human divers might return to defuse it. Retired Adm. Tim Keating cannot say, however, whether the dolphins will be used in the Straight."
The Obama administration has reportedly warned Iran that closing the Strait would provoke an American response.
Sharks instead? (Score:5, Funny)
With lasers of course...
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Re:Sharks instead? (Score:5, Funny)
But they have lasers
(b) Would you really want to train a shark?
Yes
c'mon "editors" (Score:3, Informative)
It's "strait of Hormuz", not "straight of Hormuz"
Y'know, not to suggest anything radical or anything, but maybe slashdot should pursue the idea of hiring an editor who can, you know... edit.
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(a) Sharks don't have sonars;
They do if you install one on them.
They already got lasers.
Re:Sharks instead? (Score:4, Informative)
Sharks do have Electroreception [wikipedia.org] though, which would be a really cool sense to be able to harness if sharks were trainable.
Re:Sharks instead? (Score:5, Funny)
(a) Sharks don't have sonars; (b) Would you really want to train a shark?
I thought they all went to law school?
Re:Sharks instead? (Score:5, Funny)
Training sharks is a very expensive business - it cost me an arm and a leg...
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someone is missing a cultural reference [youtube.com] ..
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No need to train sharks, this idea has already been done by Don Knotts [imdb.com]
Ok, that movie might be a little before most of the /. crowd.
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Cybernetic dolphins on crack, much better
Re:Sharks instead? (Score:5, Insightful)
That's because they actually are funny, unlike most of the new crap.
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15 years ago Natalie Portman had just made 'The Professional' you perv.
That's a 10 year old meme.
straight straits (Score:5, Informative)
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081210140645AADMNkG [yahoo.com]
Whats the difference between Straight and Strait?
Straight, as in a line without a waver or curve.
Strait: "A strait is a narrow, navigable channel of water that connects two larger navigable bodies of water. "
And for the love of foreigners, if you guys do something about your spelling issues, please remove unsounded letters (like the "gh" in straight"), don't add any more of them. That's just cheating at scrabble!
Re:straight straits (Score:5, Informative)
It's a legacy of English being the bastard love child of all the languages that passed through western Europe. Strait and Straight have different etymologies, so they've inherited the spellings that evolved from their respective parent languages. Strait comes from the Old French "estreit", whereas straight comes from Anglo-Saxon "streccan". Give it another few hundred years and they'll standardise on something spelt similar to both (my guess would be "strate")
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Yes, why not preserve the silent e and the sliding 'ai'.. or better yet, lets pronounce it! strah... teh.. hmm yes
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I prefer "straet" myself :P
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Give it another few hundred years and they'll standardise on something spelt similar to both (my guess would be "strate")
Is spelling still evolving the way it used to? I'd have thought the prevalence of print books, availability of dictionaries, and the prevalence of spell checkers, etc over the last hundred years would have started to impose a resistance to the previous fluidity.
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Re:straight straits (Score:5, Funny)
Thank-you for setting the record strait. :)
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And for the love of foreigners, if you guys do something about your spelling issues, please remove unsounded letters (like the "gh" in straight"), don't add any more of them.
Not to change the topic too badly, but if you're concerned with unsounded letters in major languages, it's French you should be worried about. They seem to take a policy of "last three letters are optional -- hope you didn't learn the language just from speech!"
Re:straight straits (Score:5, Interesting)
Slashdot: a new frontier in illiteracy.
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Not as bad as queue and cue. I see that used incorrectly more frequently than correctly. And I die a little inside each time
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Well, a few others that grate me:
hoard/horde
rein/reign
phase/faze
compliment/complement
voila/viola (stupid Slashdot won't let me use the accent)
peek/peak
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I've never thought of the "gh" as in "thought" and "straight" etc. as indicative of nothing in pronunciation. I've always spoken it as a syllable break, a glottal stop, or by turning the preceding monophthong into a diphthong or the preceding diphthong into a triphthong. This is definitely left over from when there was the more noticeable Germanic [x] in these words. I find most people around me render, for example, "higher" as [haÉÌ.É(TM)É] and not as [haÉÌeÌÉ], s
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I see that Slashdot does not take IPA very well. Let me try something more confusing: hai.er not haier
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So long... (Score:5, Funny)
Potential problem. (Score:5, Insightful)
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It would be like the 1982 Hyde Park and Regent's Park bombings all over again.
to summarize (Score:2)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyde_Park_and_Regent's_Park_bombings [wikipedia.org]
IRA attack on a British cavalry unit. Horses instead of dolphins, but I can see where you got that from
I doubt it. (Score:2, Interesting)
No matter how many dolphin friendly tuna have been trained, dolphins still die by the hundred each year in monofilament drift nets.
If we really want to save the dolphins, we need to give up eating tuna. Despite all the whining from PETA on that subject, there has been minimal effect. The death of brave dolphin fighters in protecting the god-given right to cheap oil will have a similar effect.
Nothing.
Poor bloody dolphins.
Re:I doubt it. (Score:5, Insightful)
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There is also news fatigue: Once something like tuna-fishing has been going on long enough, people lose the ability to care.
There is also delicious, delicious tuna in a can for a buck.*
* (due to the state of the economy, the can of tuna still costs a buck, but it has shrunk by about a third...)
How about a novel solution? (Score:3, Insightful)
You know, for the Americans to but the hell out of other countries business and look at their own issues instead.
Stop waging war on the peoples of this planet (those that have oil at least) and you might find your place in the world moves up from itinerant and hated troublemaker to respected citizen.
Hard I know aftrer so many decades of poking your nose it's not welcome... but hell, give it a try.
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Re:How about a novel solution? (Score:5, Insightful)
and if sprinkling fairy dust on rainbows begets unicorns and world peace, everyone could live in love and harmony!
However, we live in the real world. The big dogs on the block always push little ones around. Been like that since the first homo erectus climbed down from the trees. You think the any of the previous powers were "respected citizens" that "minded their own business"? How about the British empire? Soviet? Chinese? French? (yes the French were actually a major power as recently as the 19th century)
As far as US goes, it's actually quite benign in comparison to every other dominant power that came before it. What do you think the (insert empire name) would've done in (insert troublespot name)?
But anyhow it looks like all you USA haters will be getting your wish soon. America is declining fast, and the next big dog seems to be lining up to take its place already. You probably know who that is.
But be careful what you wish for.
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"You think the any of the previous powers were "respected citizens" that "minded their own business"
Examine how Islam itself spread. No unicorns involved.
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Simple countermeasure - use anti-personnel mines (Score:5, Interesting)
Except in this case the personnel are dolphins.
Should be simple enough to rig one in ten of your mines with an acoustic package that responds to the presence of a Dolphin sonar frequency fingerprint by detonating. Need to be careful that it doesn't respond to a ship playing back Dolphin frequencies on its active sonar.
From what I understand about the sensitivity of marine mammals to extreme Sonar sound pressure - you wouldn't even need it to detonate - just let out a couple of sonic farts at 140db should deafen the Dolphins permanently. I'm sure the Navy has a nice retirement program for deaf Dolphins. Not like the US Navy could complain - no worse than they do during a typical navel exercise with the active sonar on their submarines and ships.
Always more marine mammals in the sea.
Re:Simple countermeasure - use anti-personnel mine (Score:5, Funny)
[...] during a typical navel exercise [...]
you made my day here
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140 dB underwater is actually pretty quiet. Sound levels underwater are based on a reference of 1 Pascal at 1 meter. Sound levels in the air were arbitrarily referenced to 20 Pascal at 1 meter to better align it with the sensitivity of the human ear. Water also has a much higher impedance than air. Consequently, to convert underwater dB to to air dB, you have to subtract 62 [fas.org]. 140 dB underwater is equivalent to just 78 d
Obama to Iran: (Score:4, Funny)
"This is what I say to Iran. Let me be absolutely clear. If you close the Strait of Hormuz you are making the choice to put innocent dolphins in harms way. The American people will hold YOU responsible for their deaths. Think carefully."
Red Alert 2 ? (Score:2)
And I thought the attack dolphins in that game were silly.
Coulnt monkeys be trained for the military too? (Score:2)
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Monkeys are much smarter then dolphins.
Dolphins are about as smart as pigs or dogs. Which makes them perfect for training. Smart enough to do what you want, too stupid to realize they are expendable.
The whole 'dolphins are as smart as humans' assertion was made by one 'scientist' who was on acid at the time. He spent the remainder of his life failing to teach dolphins to talk. Near the end of his life actual scientists found the explanation for the abnormally sized dolphin brains; Sonar signal processi
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http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Security-Industry/2003/03/24/Morocco-offers-US-monkeys-to-detonate-mine/UPI-14431048506179/ [upi.com]
Does it actually work? (Score:5, Interesting)
I once saw a tv show where they talked about these military dolphins. I can't recall what the program was, but the outcome wasn't that great. They basically said the dolphins, being such intelligent creatures, sometimes actually lied for the fun of it. Unlike the dogs who simply do what they're told, the dolphins actually played with the rules and would say no mine was there even if they knew they were spotted as being lying.
Maybe the psychological side of the training has evolved since then, or maybe it was just a campaign of misinformation, but if it's actually true, doesn't sound too great for this theory...
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Iran has its own Dolphins too (Score:2)
Weren't dolphins also deployed in 2003? I recall a story about them being loosed in the sea and then just swimming off to freedom, but as I'm having trouble finding links to any such story maybe it is misremebered.
From the TFA I think this is interesting
Former Admiral KEATING: They are astounding in their ability to detect underwater objects.
NPR's TOM BOWMAN: Dolphins were sent to the Persian Gulf as part of the American invasion force in Iraq.
KEATING
Iranians will hijack the dolphins (Score:2)
It worked well with a drone, I see no reason why they won't do the same with the dolphins.
After the capture they'll proudly demonstrate to the entire world what american dolphin infidels look like, and then send them for reverse engineering in China and Russia.
Pa love Fa? (Score:3)
OK fine, I'm old as dirt.
STRAIT, not Straight (Score:2)
It's a body of water, not an adjective indicating co-linearity.
DADT got repealed (Score:2)
"Straight" is politically incorrect. It's the "Heterosexual of Hormuz".
(Or "Strait of Hormuz" if you want to be pedantic about it.)
I just love the quote: (Score:4, Insightful)
The Obama administration has reportedly warned Iran that closing the Straight would provoke an American response.
I love how it's only the US that can be 'provoked'.
Remember, folks, Iran's apparently nuclear weapon program, while not illegal in any sense, 'provokes' the US. Countries have a perfect right to develop nukes if they want, and cut off inspections that they are only working towards nuclear power, and all it does is get them kicked out of the nuclear weapon's treaty, which means many countries won't sell uranium to them. That's it. It doesn't give anyone the right to attack them, or be 'provoked' into a war with them.
I think people have somehow gotten confused since the Iraq war and think developing nukes are 'illegal', but Iraq signed a surrender in war saying they wouldn't develop nukes, so, if they actually had been doing so, it would be a violation of the surrender and the war would be back on. Iran is not anywhere near the same situation.
However, threatening to bomb Iran in violation of international law is illegal. I don't mean actually bombing Iran, although that's also illegal...just threatening to attack countries over internal matters is actually illegal. As is planning to do so. It's a crime against peace. Somehow, that doesn't count as 'provoking'.
But, if Iran does what is mostly within international law, closing of its own waterways to transit passage of countries threatening it, that is also 'provoking'. Countries are supposed to allow passage of ships through their waters as long as they don't stop, but they can stop that when, for example, people keep threatening to attack them. (And they can certainly keep out warships of countries that keep threatening them!)
To summarize: Iran doing things we don't like that are possibly falling short of their treaty obligations, but are not in any way 'illegal', that's 'provoking' us. The US committing the outright war crime of planning and threatening to bomb them to change their internal behavior, why, it's crazy to think Iran might not like that.
Mod parent up. (Score:2)
Parent is well informed on the topic.
What is even worse is how we have US officials framing the idea of Iran blocking their waterway as an act of war! The Irony!! When it is the US involved in cutting off Iranian Oil from getting out as part of the sanctions against Iran exercising its (unpopular) rights -- that is not an act of war...
Me, I think it is a big game of chicken. Convincing the other players who is more crazy, the USA or Iran. All the oil buyers want is stability so siding with the USA is what
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No, I think Iran has rights to the part of the passage way that lies within their waters and part of it does (it is setup as two lanes.) Actually, the GPS lanes could be moved to Oman's waters and not touch Iranian waters; unless the treaty requires the 1 lane always be theirs or that the dividing line is defined as between the two lanes... I don't know but I wouldn't think so. Then Iran would be stuck as the traffic would move around them. It would not be within their rights to mess with the water out
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Remember, folks, Iran's apparently nuclear weapon program, while not illegal in any sense
Iran is a signatory to the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty. Under that treaty, they are legally restricted from developing nuclear weapons and legally required to allow the IAEA to monitor any nuclear program that they did have.
If they're pursuing nuclear weaponry, it's clearly illegal.
If Iran blocks the strait ... (Score:2)
... the ships can use the gaiy instead.
Contract dolphins? (Score:2)
Is there a dolphin union? What about hazard pay, or death benefits to their families? Do they get the GI bill so they can go to school after their tour of duty?
Spelling question: "Straight?" (Score:2)
Just curious, why are folks spelling it the "Straight of Hormuz" instead of the "Strait." Is that a Queen's English spelling? In the US the correct spelling is definitely "strait," as in: "a narrow channel." Also, the linked articles spell it as "strait."
Not meaning to be a pedant here, I'm actually genuinely curious. Either it's a common spelling error or a cultural standards difference, and I was wondering which.
Re:Dolphins ... right. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Dolphins ... right. (Score:5, Funny)
Given how intelligent dolphins are, and how much technology and money it would take to replicate the functions and capabilities of a living creature, I don't think your view plays out. You talk about how expensive it would be to train dolphins, but it would be many more times expensive to use hardware instead.
I work at a university, and this is yet another case where the world should look to academia for the solution.
You need a cheap yet intelligent work force that's willing to work long hours and isn't overly picky about working conditions? That's easy - that's what grad students are for. They're easily replaceable too!
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Grad Students are just the larval form of Interns in the business world.
PETA (Score:3, Funny)
Given how intelligent dolphins are, and how much technology and money it would take to replicate the functions and capabilities of a living creature, I don't think your view plays out. You talk about how expensive it would be to train dolphins, but it would be many more times expensive to use hardware instead.
We could use members of PETA.
They're all vegans and therefore are skinnier than shit and wouldn't have any sonar profile.
They're all super angry so if we told them that the Iranians were using mines to kill cute cuddly something or anothers, they'd be out there with sledge hammers.
And then if we provided "proof" that the Iranians used dead (by clubbing) baby seals, well that'd be the end of that!
Imagine an army of waifs storming into Iran.
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If Red Alert 2 has taught me anything, the Allies get dolphins, and the Soviets get giant squids.
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Will the dream of working with cute dolphins sign up more smart kids from the malls?
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New fancy plastic minesweepers are still easily targeted by missile or gun. Dolphins are harder to find and even if you do find them, you can't be sure that you're looking at one from the US Navy until you actually haul the carcass aboard.
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No offense, but those dolphins probably cost millions to raise and train
You really don't understand how defense contracting works, do you? They cost millions to raise and train, and the government is billed for billions in "biological mine locator units (BMLU's)".
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Better, cheaper, faster... pick none.
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Except the Military has been training and using dolphins for decades, so why waste your investment?. Check this over-the-top story [guardian.co.uk] from The Guardian.
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I can just imagine the brouhaha that PETA will kick up over this.
If we go to war with Iran, I feel like PETA will not find a very receptive audience to said brouhaha.
Besides, Dolphins are cooler than nukes. They have sex for fun and are the second most intelligent creatures on the planet.
Re:inb4peta (Score:5, Interesting)
They have sex for fun
They also force their ladies to have sexy times through which is rape! The more you know! ===* [youtube.com]
second most intelligent creatures on the planet.
“For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much—the wheel, New York, wars and so on—whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man—for precisely the same reasons.”
Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
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are the second most intelligent creatures on the planet.
Makes me wonder why they allow a third rate species push them around.
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This has been bothering me lately. If we evolved from monkeys, why are they so stupid?
When jumping from one tree to another, bigger (and heavier) brain is not an advantage in selection.
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It's not that monkeys and primates are not smart. They just have the (understandable) tendency to rip pieces of flesh of off people who try to make them bring back the ball for the zillionth time.
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Anyone who has ever dealt with animals will tell you most of them can understand when you're pointing at an object
And anyone who has ever dealt with creationists will tell you most of them are no more intelligent than any other primate
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Depends a lot on how you measure intelligence. Chimpanzees and other apes give most
animals decent competition. Some of them have been taught to read, count and occasionally
even invent new words for things people have not taught them.
Also, animals in general tend to be more intelligent than people think. Most people get
surprised when the learn that it's quite possible to train goldfish to perform tricks.
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the second most intelligent creatures on the planet
and which species gets the #1 spot? Ants?
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Tastes more like fishy beef.
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Telling us to fuck off and die isn't very endearing. Despite what you think some of us are actually knowledgeable about geography. Also the actions of our government have since long ago not been a representation of the will of our people. Though anyone who knows anything about our government would realize that putting mines in the way of our boats or attacking them is a sure fire way to end up with your country invaded. Ever stop to think that both sides want this war? That is probably really what is going
and (Score:3)
. Also the actions of our government have since long ago not been a representation of the will of our people.
what are you going to do about that ?
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I'll sign the above without being AC (Score:5, Insightful)
I can't say that I oppose all USA military operations: I actually think that what they did (and led other nations to do) in Libya was pretty great. I bet we're going to see a lot more problems in that area (Be it terrorism, hanging on the edge of another civil war or just another dictator grabbing the power after a while) but it was still a joint operation by the international community, intended to help people who wanted to overthrow a dictator.
That said... It's hard to deny that a lot of the problems in the area are also more or less directly caused by the USA. It's a very militaristic nation, with a very large and loud minority(?) of islamophobes and every few years it demonstrates that it still reserves itself the right to attack any nation there for whatever reason it wants to, whether or not they have the support of the international community and whether or not those reasons even make sense.
Whenever any dictator faces an uprising or any terrorist organization faces opposition from the locals, the first thing they say "Those are just agents of USA messing around" and the problem is... that doesn't sound as far-fetched as it should. USA foreign policy has been very effective in painting the nation as an evil empire against which the Arabs should unite. I'm not saying that there wouldn't be terrorist nutjobs if not for USA but I am saying that they have more support and credibility due to actions by USA. As far as I'm aware, the main platform of Ahmadinejad is rallying against USA: He gains support during conflicts like these and loses it when people direct their attention to internal affairs.
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Couldn't have said it better. Too bad I have no mod points right now.
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intended to help people who wanted to overthrow a dictator
You mean the bankers, and oil executives. Right?
http://www.cnbc.com/id/42308613/Libyan_Rebels_Form_Their_Own_Central_Bank [cnbc.com]
http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/wow-that-was-fast-libyan-rebels-have-already-established-a-new-central-bank-of-libya [theeconomi...seblog.com]
http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20111122-713038.html [wsj.com]
Re:I'll sign the above without being AC (Score:5, Insightful)
Its very simple really: when trying to determine WHY the US has taken military action of some sort - look to see which US Corporations will benefit the most and you have found the *real* reason the US is dropping bombs. Oh, there are some exceptions - at the micro level (killing Bin Laden for instance was a political coups for the sitting President), but on the macro level, it is always economics I think.
Not that this marks it as different from just about any other country, but the US is the one country in the world that is more or less *always* at war somewhere. If they don't get drawn into one, they start it.
I am sure there will be some conflict with Iran, its just too perfect for the military industrial complex in the US. The US isn't in any other war at the moment, and a new war with a new opponent is a great way to ensure a lot of US corporations make big bank - at the expense of all those honest US soldiers who have to conduct it mind you.
I have BTW massive respect for the US military and its heroic members (despite a few exceptions), but they don't make the policy, they just have to carry it out.
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Dear random whiny person (Score:3)
Sorry, but this is something that affects America and thus America has a right to respond. If nothing else, America has an economic interest in the oil continuing to flow.
Further, they wouldn't be the only one. If Iran closed the strait they would have to invade Oman's waters to do so (as part of it is in there) and thus would defacto declare war on Oman. Then of course there's the fact that UNCLOS provides that it isn't legal to close down the strait just because you want to. Iran would be violating intern
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Ron Paul has no sense of morals, or he wouldn't be advocating the U.S. let the new wars just waiting to happen start. And only a lunatic would advocate going back to the goal standard on the basis of he's sure the U.S. is hiding Beeeeelllions and Beeeelllions of it at Fort Knox but discretely not telling anyone.
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Come on man, don't hold back. Tell us how you really feel.
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Of course we knew that Iraq had chemical weapons; we sold them to Iraq.
Clinton was too busy with other things to worry about the war that was running throughout the eight years of his administration.
What war was this? Iran/Iraq was so 80s!
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_for_Iraq_during_the_Iran%E2%80%93Iraq_war#Chemical_and_Biological_exports [wikipedia.org]