Thousands of Muslims Protest 'Age of Mockery' At Google's London Headquarters 515
cold fjord writes "A large protest planned by as many as 800 imams was held today at Google's London headquarters to protest the video, 'The Innocence of Muslims,' which is available on Google's subsidiary YouTube. There may have been as many as 10,000 protesters in what is said to be the first of several planned protests. From the story: 'Speeches by more than a dozen imams . . . urged Muslims to honor the name of the Prophet and not to back down in the face of Google's continuing reluctance to act, and were met with passionate cries of "God is Great" and "Mohammad is the Prophet of God" in Arabic. . . One of the speakers. . . told The Daily Telegraph: "Terrorism is not just people who kill human bodies, but who kill human feelings as well. The makers of this film have terrorized 1.6 billion people." A YouTube spokesperson said: "We work hard to create a community everyone can enjoy and which also enables people to express different opinions. "This can be a challenge because what's OK in one country can be offensive elsewhere. This video — which is widely available on the Web — is clearly within our guidelines and so will stay on YouTube."'"
Don't watch it (Score:5, Insightful)
It's not like TV stations are slipping this video in amongst their shows and commercials to trick you into watching it. If you don't like it, don't watch it, and stop trying to force your religious views on others.
Refuse to be Terrorized (Score:5, Insightful)
This goes for all peoples, including muslims: Refuse to be Terrorized! [schneier.com]
You're not terrorized by anything unless you choose to be.
When will these imams (Score:5, Insightful)
Protest videos of "unbelievers" being beheaded?
Terrorism of feelings? (Score:5, Insightful)
Terrorism is not just people who kill human bodies, but who kill human feelings as well.
I find this extremely offensive, not only because they're trying to control what other humans can think, but also because they dare to compare the mental outrage at an idea to the physical killing and torture of humans. These things are not even remotely comparable except at a philosophical level.
...
After calming down a bit, it seems evident to me that these people are simply unable to cope with the cognitive dissonance that their one true belief may not be so true after all.
It's your belief; deal with it yourself. Don't expect everyone else to change their lives because you can't handle opposing thoughts.
Re:Don't watch it (Score:5, Insightful)
Hypocracy or stupidity? (Score:5, Insightful)
No wonder they're being ridiculed.
Re:Don't watch it (Score:4, Insightful)
It's not like TV stations are slipping this video in amongst their shows and commercials to trick you into watching it. If you don't like it, don't watch it, and stop trying to force your religious views on others.
The thing I fid interesting is that on one hand you have "don't watch it if you don't want to be offended/Free speech Yaaaaaay!!!!" regarding the anti-muslim propaganda while on the other hand .. you have doctrine for castigating any attacks on another people/religion .. so codified that it even has a well known descriptive name "Antisemitism"
I'm not saying that attacking one group is any worse/better than attacks on another group - however I do believe that a lot of people in western countries would have a different opinion if that film on youtube was anti-Semitic.
(and yes I know there are anti-semetic films on youtube, but they are not as well publicized as the film du jour topic of outrage. IE Videos from the Westboro baptist church )
Re:Hypocracy or stupidity? (Score:5, Insightful)
An open society lets the foul air in, as well as the fresh air.
When dealing with these folks, just remember not to be so open minded that your brains fall out.
Personally, I think that these Muslim folks are wearing out their welcome in western civilizations. They want to repeal our right to free speech, that many of us hold so dear as an integral pillar of what makes our societies so great.
Re:First Pedobear (Score:0, Insightful)
Split opinion (Score:4, Insightful)
On one hand, so long as they are peacefully protesting and not advocating violence against people until the video is removed, then they are well within their rights. No, you don't have a right to not be offended, but if you are offended you have the right to peacefully protest the offending material.
On the other hand, despite their protests being valid, they don't get to redefine the English language. If you offending someone, that doesn't make you a terrorist. If it did then we'd have to pretty much classify everyone as terrorists, since I'm sure everyone at least once in their lives says something that would offend at least one person. Terrorism is making people afraid to exercise their rights and/or stand up to the terrorists for fear of being harmed. Nobody is afraid of protesting against this video. Granted, I haven't watched the video, but from what I've heard it in no way makes threats against people who would disagree with it. It just makes a claim which offends some people. So they can go ahead and protest against it. That's their right. They can make websites decrying it and countering any points the video attempts to make. So long as they do it peacefully and not by threatening the lives of anyone involved, I'll support their right to protest whether or not I agree with their viewpoint.
Re:Don't watch it (Score:4, Insightful)
Child pornography causes a very large amount of harm to children. The video in question hurts some people's feelings. Comparing the two is a vast stretch of the imagination.
Re:Maybe I missed it... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Don't watch it (Score:4, Insightful)
Since you know so much about this maybe you can enlighten me.
The organizer of this London protest stated " Our next protest will be at the offices of Google and YouTube across the world. We are looking to ban this film.". You clearly know more than him, so what were they actually protesting about?
Or are you too stupid to realize that more than one protest is happening most of the time somewhere in the world.
Re:Thank's Google! (Score:5, Insightful)
Now, it may not have been strictly a corporate belief in free speech; it may have been a self-interested decision that if they start caving into demands like this they'll end up severely crippled in a few years... but I'm ok with that as a motivator.
Re:Don't watch it (Score:3, Insightful)
No core problem (Score:5, Insightful)
With their demostration - if it was peaceful.
And they should be allowed to demonstrate. Such is a fundamental of this society.
But its not lost on me, nor should it be lost on_anyone_else - that their demostrate and represent everything that would unhinge that democracy, and its many hard fought battles. No, you don't get to silence opposition to your 7th century religion, and its crimes. No , you don't get to stifle and limit freedom of expression, just because it challeneges your religion. No, you don't get to impose your 7th century barbarism by trying to be a 5th column. The removal of religion from state took many decades in this society. Efforts to swing your religious desires into politics, and then into religious dictatorship are obvious, and must not be allowed to succeed. Ever.
'Submission' as muslims is your right. If you wish to be so fucking stupid and submit to this garbage - thats a personal choice you can take as you wish. But I *never* submitted to it, and I will not be submitted to it, not even by proxy, not by PR, not by propaganda, and not by 3000 idiots with stupid beards, pygamas, and/or Ninja outfits and retarted stupid idiocy whining outside of Youtube/Google buildings.
This is a secular state. If you do not like it, please feel free to go and live in one of the now many islamic shithole states that plaster this globe. But here is the fun part. Most of you live here because you did not like it there very much. Thats a freedom you very much have as much as standing round outside of a google building offending me deeply.
Oh, sorry, I should not mock your ability to be deeply offended every 5 minutes by everyone and everything. But I did. Whoops.
Re:"It's 2012" (Score:2, Insightful)
The Christian West has had over 500 years of development since then and Islam has a lot of catching up to do
Looks to me like they're catching up just fine. They've done an admirable job of mimicking the "Hurting our widdle feelings is tewowwism" whine.
Re:Don't watch it (Score:5, Insightful)
This is exactly why religion is bad. You take an invisible dude in a toga and put him in control of morality!!!! Well there's your problem. The premise of religion is immoral because it's based upon a lie.
Re:Don't watch it (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:"It's 2012" (Score:4, Insightful)
One of the things that many people don't realize is that the period of Christian dominance, crusades, inquisitions, etc. was not really about religion per say. It was Politics. The Church was a potent political entity that at times had veto power over issues such as the selection of monarchies and laws. And the atrocities that were carried out were not really due to one's religious beliefs, but more to make political statements and control people. (The Crusades used religion as a pretext, but they were purely geopolitical conflicts.) Martin Luther heralded the decline of the Church as a political force along with the printing press, which allowed the average man (eventually) to read the Bible for himself.
Re:Don't watch it (Score:3, Insightful)
Thank You Google (Score:5, Insightful)
I just wanted to take a second out of my day, to say thank you to Google. To anyone who works there, who can influence Google, who knows an employee - please pass on my personal thanks for this staunch defence of free speech, in the face of what is probably the single most intimidating anti-free-speech group and protest the world has seen in my lifetime.
What you are doing is very worthy - and really stands to highlight the "Do No Evil" motto that Google is famous for, but that some people have (rightly or wrongly) started to bring into question recently.
Media providers must take their place in the defence of free speech - in the days of investigative journalism they actually tended to be more aggressive about this - and Youtube and other similar providers are absolutely vital in allowing the discourse and social interaction that we need as a community to grow and become better people.
Thank You,
Pathetic (Score:4, Insightful)
Terrorism is not just people who kill human bodies, but who kill human feelings as well. The makers of this film have terrorised 1.6 billion people.
What a disingenuous bunch of crap. Someone questions their invisible friend and they call it terrorism? Hurt feelings are the same as killing innocent people?Someone who would say something like that has the emotional maturity of a 4 year old. I can handle someone criticizing my beliefs but apparently all the followers of islam are so emotionally fragile that they can be traumatized by a book or a comic. Pathetic.
By your own rules (Score:4, Insightful)
"Terrorism is not just people who kill human bodies, but who kill human feelings as well. The makers of this film have terrorised 1.6 billion people."
If one's feelings are so delicate and fragile as to be killed by an impersonal video then the feelings need to be strengthened. Is the Muslim religion so weak that simply ridiculing it will ram it? I don't think so. Radical Muslims that riot and kill people over a video do no service to their religion. It only shows how intolerant man can be toward their fellow man. It shows how some Muslims are easily swayed by imams who are more interested in their own power than the good of their religion.
I am not usually one to use the word "terrorism" but lets apply "killing feelings" level to some aspects of radical terrorism.
"Women shall not go to schools on pain of death or disfigurement" Terrorizing half the population
"Convert or die". Terrorizing all non-Muslims.
"Leave Islam and Die" Terrorizing all Muslims.
By their standards they are terrorizing everyone in the world.
Right now in London (Score:4, Insightful)
Also in London, a 14 year old girl fighting for her life after a Muslim put a bullet in her brain because she wanted to go school.
Lets count the number of British Imams condemning the Muslims who attacked her, lets count the number marching on the streets in protest.
What more needs to be said.
Re:Perhaps Christians can set an example (Score:5, Insightful)
Terrorism has a definition. (Score:2, Insightful)
"Terrorism is not just people who kill human bodies, but who kill human feelings as well. The makers of this film have terrorised 1.6 billion people."
Fuck you, and anybody who thinks like you, pal. Terrorism puts people in fear for their lives by murdering and brutally attacking others. The makers of this film have created a bunch of racist garbage, yes, but they in no way put anybody in fear of danger. The danger comes from people like you, who scream about how freedom of speech doesn't apply to this film because it's "anarchy", because it's not "civil", because it's "blasphemous". Freedom of speech requires that all those qualities be protected. And if you believe your religion allows you to contemplate violence for words alone, you need to take a damn hard look at your religion, and then the rest of the world, because we've left the Dark Ages - you don't get to declare a holy right to commit violence against those who called you stupid anymore.
Re:Don't watch it (Score:4, Insightful)
There is a difference between insulting a religion and discriminating against or inciting violence against the followers.
Re:Don't watch it (Score:5, Insightful)
That's the big difference... Nothing about "Innocence of Muslims" encouraged anyone to go murdering Muslims...
Do you see thousands of Jews protesting Sacha Baron Cohen's works or those of Mel Brooks because they can be considered insulting to Judaism? No. A few complain, but no massive outpourings of rage and no one was murdered.
Do you see people rioiting and murdering people because of Piss Christ or South Park Jesus? Nope.
Re:Don't watch it (Score:5, Insightful)
This is exactly why religion is bad. You take an invisible dude in a toga and put him in control of morality!!!!
Close, but not exactly right - the problem is not the "invisible dude in a toga," it's the very much corporeal confidence men who convince people that if they don't do what the confidence man tells them, the aforementioned invisible dude will make their lives miserable. Oh, and the people who allow themselves to be conned thusly; personal responsibility and all that.
FWIW, plenty of people go through life believing in some form of god without ever shoving their beliefs down anyone else's throat. You just never hear about these people because they aren't uptight, pompous dicks.
Re:Don't watch it (Score:5, Insightful)
So... Jews are not the subject of jokes in the wes (Score:5, Insightful)
So, you are saying that Jews are not the subject of jokes in the west? They are and the greatest jokes are told by Jews themselves, they take the piss out of themselves and their religion for a long time, it is one of the defining qualities of Jews in the west.
And if you want a good anti-catholic joke, look no further then catholics, they know a ton and will happily tell them, they too have plenty of self-ridicule or do you REALLY think any Catholic out there doesn't find it hilarious that beavers count as fish?
Protestants laugh about themselves too you just don't see it because they are to stoic to move face muscles.
There have been countless movies made taking the total piss out of religion and the number of deaths because of them is very very low (I can't say for certain nobody has been killed over movies like Life of Brian).
You do know that the simple joke of Moses coming down the mountain (a Jew) and dropping 5 of the 15 commandments would have Muslims (when someone dials-a-riot) up on arms if it was about Mohammad?
There is a large difference between ridiculling even belitteling a group of people and incitement to hatred. Anti-semitism doesn't say Moses raped goats, it says Jews are sub-human. Saying Mohammed is a pedo isn't saying Arabs are sub-human.
Re:Don't watch it (Score:5, Insightful)
This is exactly why religion is bad...
Actually, the issue is dogma. Any dogma, not just religious ones.
Re:Don't watch it (Score:5, Insightful)
This is like the Janet Jackson Wardrobe malfunction a few editions of the "professional pigskin championship" ago.
I was actually watching WHEN it happened and it was under 2 seconds. On a super long range shot. In the middle of a football field.
In short NOBODY in the stands could have identified what happened. Nobody without rewind, pause, and frame-by-frame could see it. It was only news because they made it news, and a bunch of people that NEVER SAW it when it happened made a bunch of noise.
That's the same thing happening here.
Re:Don't watch it (Score:5, Insightful)
You take an invisible dude in a toga and put him in control of morality!!!!
You create invisible dude in a toga so that you can control a population. Who cares if it's based on a lie? It works, and that's all that matters.There is no morality behind any of it, that's part of the trick to divert your attention. However, the practicality has proven itself over and over again.
Re:"It's 2012" vs Last Temptation of Christ 1988 (Score:3, Insightful)
I went and looked up "The Last Temptation of Christ" on Wikipedia. The 1988 Scorsese movie drew protests by 600 offended Christians in California. Adjusted for inflation, that's about 800 London Imams. And it wasn't on youtube. The point being that people claiming to represent all Muslims or all Christians don't deserve the ink. This is more about the disintegration of journalism than an attack on Islam or a serious threat to freedom of speech.
"The Last Temptation of Christ's eponymous final sequence depicts the crucified Jesus—tempted by what turns out to be Satan in the form of a beautiful, androgynous child—experiencing a dream or alternative reality where he comes down from the cross, marries Mary Magdalene (and later Mary and Martha), and lives out his life as a full mortal man...."
"Because of these radical departures from the gospel narratives—and especially a brief scene wherein Jesus and Mary Magdalene consummate their marriage—several Christian fundamentalist groups organized vocal protests and boycotts of the film prior to and upon its release. One protest, organized by a religious Californian radio station, gathered 600 protesters to picket the headquarters of Universal Studios' parent company MCA;[5] one of the protestors dressed as MCA's Chairman Lew Wasserman and pretended to drive nails through Jesus' hands into a wooden cross.[4] Bill Bright of Campus Crusade for Christ offered to buy the film's negative from Universal in order to destroy it.[5] The protests were effective in convincing several theater chains not to screen the film;[5] one of those chains, General Cinemas, later apologized to Scorsese for doing so.[4]
In some countries, including Turkey, Mexico, Chile, and Argentina, the film was banned or censored for several years. As of July 2010, the movie continues to be banned in Chile, the Philippines and Singapore.[6]
Re:Right now in London (Score:5, Insightful)
Also in London, a 14 year old girl fighting for her life after a Muslim put a bullet in her brain because she wanted to go school.
Lets count the number of British Imams condemning the Muslims who attacked her, lets count the number marching on the streets in protest.
What more needs to be said.
That most generalizations are false, including this one.
Unless you're also expecting every Christian to come out and publicly denounce every abortion clinic bombing, every child-molesting preacher, every douchebag protester at military funerals with signs reading "God killed your son," demanding every Muslim in the world denounce the sins of the small number who actually engage in negative behavior just makes you come off as a childish moron with absolutely no understanding of society or human nature.
Re:Don't watch it (Score:5, Insightful)
The thing I fid interesting is that on one hand you have "don't watch it if you don't want to be offended/Free speech Yaaaaaay!!!!
I find the current trend to discount the importance of free speach disturbing. Its interesting to me that it seems more important to supress dissent/alternative views/ideas more important than offending the adherents of what is a mysogenistic and developmentally backwards offshoot of a religion. Just becuase some one is loud (and often violent) doesn't make them right. Just goes to show how dangerous an idea is if people feel the need to supress it. I find the idea of jihad increadibly dangerous. I believe it needs to be supressed.
Maybe... (Score:4, Insightful)
Maybe if they spent just as much effort to organize and protest against the Taliban and fundamentalist Islam, then it would be easier to dismiss such videos in the first place.
Anyone who has listened to or read Sam Harris knows that Islam has some very basic problems at the core of its doctrine that its present-day followers have overwhelmingly failed to address. To speak up about this is not to be Islamophobic. It's to state factual aspects of a religion that is not, despite claims from its moderate adherents, the "religion of peace." Because if it were peaceful, THESE PEOPLE WOULDN'T BE PROTESTING GOOGLE. They'd be doing everything in their power to excommunicate and weed out all the extremist mullahs and imams that call for death for apostasy, and violent jihad. The fact that we see protests against Western freedoms rather than Islamic oppression tells you everything you need to know. Moderates cannot just keep repeating "but we're peaceful and we're offended!" It's YOUR religion to claim, so CLAIM it. But don't go around to non-Muslims and pretend as if you're doing your duty, because the fight is not with us. It's with the extremists in your midst that threaten to pull your religion in THEIR direction. Unless, of course, you moderates agree with them, in which case you're not really moderate at all, and it's all just an act.
They think it just started? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Don't watch it (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually, CNN was claiming (not reporting) that there was rumor of a terrorist attack. Fox was claiming it *WAS* a terrorist attack within minutes of the story leaking.
As what happens with a stopped clock, it's right once or twice in a while... Fox got lucky, they didn't have any special inside information or know anything. They *WANTED* it to be a terrorist attack, they claimed it was a terrorist attack long before there was any evidence, and now they're gloating about (accidentally) being right for a change and pretending that because their fabricated story turned out to be true, that meant the white house was lying.
Yeah... ok.
To be fair... (Score:4, Insightful)
The title really should read "thousands of fundamentalist Muslims." Christian fundamentalists are constantly boycotting and protesting this or that in an effort to punish companies for not loving their version of Jesus enough, but we would never generalize them as the ~3/4 of Americans that self-identify as Christians. The idiots protesting Google over a Youtube video are culturally stuck in the past and refuse to accept that the world is changing, just like Christian conservatives.
Re:Right now in London (Score:4, Insightful)
What I expect is that a "peace-loving religion" would not allow someone to preach hate an violence in a mosque. But they did, and we are not talking about a single event in a small mosque in a small town.
Abu Hamza preached hate and violence in the biggest Mosque in London for 5 years, Muslims did not stop him from preaching his message of hate (eventually he was arrested). The inaction by muslims shows that hate and violence are part of Islam.
Re:"It's 2012" vs Last Temptation of Christ 1988 (Score:5, Insightful)
And how many things did the christians burn? How many people did they kill? Oh that's right, nothing and no one.
Also free speech as I define it only truly exists in the US so I'm not interested on what other countries did.
Re:Don't watch it (Score:4, Insightful)
Do you see thousands of Jews protesting Sacha Baron Cohen's works or those of Mel Brooks because they can be considered insulting to Judaism? No. A few complain, but no massive outpourings of rage and no one was murdered.
Do you see people rioiting and murdering people because of Piss Christ or South Park Jesus? Nope.
Add "Life of Brian" to the list of offending things - one that fiercely mocked both Jews and Christians. Nobody gave or gives a flying fuck about Life of Brian - apart from the good fun that we all had watching it.
Re:Don't watch it (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, the offices of CBS were attacked around the world and people died. Same thing.
Say what? (Score:4, Insightful)
"Terrorism is not just people who kill human bodies, but who kill human feelings as well. The makers of this film have terrorised 1.6 billion people."
Wrong. True terrorism involves stripping the victims of their choice. They have no choice but to be terrorized. Nobody in the West sat down with guns to your heads and forced you to watch the video. As with most things, you have a choice to be offended or not, to watch, or not. Stop being stupid, don't watch it, and don't be offended. Pretty simple.
Re:So... Jews are not the subject of jokes in the (Score:4, Insightful)
Most of us in the U.S. grew up with the old line about sticks and stones, and learned at an early age that being thin skinned only lead to more offense from those shelling it out. We don't have a right to not be offended. How you deal with being offended is the difference between being mature, and being childish.
That said, we do have rights to free speech, and if some jackass wants to make a movie, or put a sign outside a synagogue, his right to do so needs to be protected. But, we have every right to disagree, and point to the jackass an laugh...and no right to physically retaliate.
Re:Don't watch it (Score:4, Insightful)
Religion is a special case. With [insert non-religious dogma here], it's often very difficult to convince people to die for your cause, you know... because of death and the will to live and stuff. With religion, you can promise them AN ETERNITY OF BLISS... see how there's a qualitative difference?
Re:Don't watch it (Score:5, Insightful)
First, such investigations are seldom public. The administration really has no responsibility to tell us ANYTHING until all the facts are known. Talking about an ongoing investigation is stupid, and I'm pissed that they're doing so.
Second, Romney *IS* exploiting it for political gain. In fact, he said back in March, in that infamous 47% video, that he was searching for an "Iran Hostage Crisis" kind of situation that he would exploit. Here's his exact quote:
Romney: âoeâ¦by the way, if something of that nature (referring to the hostage crises) presents itself, I will work to find a way to take advantage of the opportunity.â
So please tell me how he's NOT exploiting it for political gain, and how he'd never do such a thing.
Re:Don't watch it (Score:5, Insightful)
In this case religious nuts are actively trying to paint everything as terrorism, the slightest perceived insult of their nasty misogynist compulsory religion so that they can claim it as acceptable to react with violence. This protest is all about forcing their acceptance of their religious laws upon the rest of society through direct acts of physical coercion. Either accede to the superiority of their religious laws over the laws of the land or face direct physical attack. They are purposefully going out of their way, to choose to be insulted when their religion is criticised in any way, shape of form and when their crazy people in robes are set above the rest of us rather than tossed in the looney bin or prison as they would nowadays when they run around claiming to speak for god whilst abusing children.
If Google submits to this intimidation then they will have become truly evil and a threat to free speech. Their religion, their problem. Clearly in the case Muslims are well and truly crossing the bounds of freedom of religion in trying to force their religion upon others.
Re:Don't watch it (Score:0, Insightful)
Religious people are at least seeking the truth.
Not even close. Religion is a way to avoid the truth, which is that there are some things that are not known, and probably not ever knowable. "How did the universe get here?" "God dunnit." That's not an answer.
Re:Don't watch it (Score:3, Insightful)
Religion is a special case. With [insert non-religious dogma here], it's often very difficult to convince people to die for your cause, you know... because of death and the will to live and stuff. With religion, you can promise them AN ETERNITY OF BLISS... see how there's a qualitative difference?
Right, tell that to all of the people killed in the Soviet Union or the Cuban revolution or Pol Pot or the Cultural Revolution in China. Shall I go on?
Re:Don't watch it (Score:4, Insightful)
Did you not pay attention in history class? This sort of thing didn't start on 9/11. It's been going on with the same basic political/theocratic base for many decades now, and fundamentally for hundreds of years. A voice of reason has to come from within. It's not something the west or anyone else 'allow'. It can be silenced (violence, fear). It can be discouraged (dogma, poor education, lack of diversity).
The problem boils down to the usual brew of basically good people naively trying to find their place in life, and a few people willing to persuade and exploite the first in order to shape the world to their liking. It's not a muslim thing. It happens in many places, and to varying degrees (just look at the current US elections for a nice modern example). It's human nature. The only things I know of that we can do to fight it are to educate the naive so they are not so easily led. Education. Not schools, but discourse. Free thought, ideas, speech. Of course there is a fine line between education and persuasion, and that is why absolute free speech is so important. Any restrictions on free speech are a step in the direction of persuasion.
I've heard arguments that "people will be offended" if XXXX. I object to that. I think "people may -take offence-". Like the voice of reason, offense comes from within. It's not something we push on others. It's something people choose for themselves.
Re:Don't watch it (Score:5, Insightful)
Reminds me of a quote by physicist Steven Weinberg:
"With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil â" that takes religion."