Fisker Hybrids Get Bad Karma From Superstorm Sandy 414
New submitter slas6654 writes with this excerpt from Jalopnik: "Approximately 16 of the $100,000+ Fisker Karma extended-range luxury hybrids were parked in Port Newark, New Jersey last night when water from Hurricane Sandy's storm surge apparently breached the port and submerged the vehicles. As Jalopnik has exclusively learned, the cars then caught fire and burned to the ground.' Apparently Fiskar super-duty lithium ion batteries are neither water-proof or water soluble."
Someone forgot to test (Score:5, Funny)
the 'submerged in water' use case?
Re:Someone forgot to test (Score:5, Funny)
Well, I guess if you have a hybrid SUV, you better think twice before you use it to back your boat into the lake!
Re:Someone forgot to test (Score:5, Funny)
I always thought that Fiskar looked like the hottest EV there was...
And I was RIGHT! :-)
Re:Someone forgot to test (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Someone forgot to test (Score:5, Insightful)
Only if you're not burning coal or oil to generate the electricity to charge that EV... Just sayin'.
Re:Someone forgot to test (Score:5, Insightful)
Until we have reliable alternatives, coal and Oil will be used until they disappear completely.
BTW ... obvious reasons. ... damn rivers ... kills birds ... Rare Earth Mineral Mining not allowed
Can't have Nuclear
Can't use Hydro Electric
Can't use windmills
Can't use Solar Voltaic
Let me know when we have viable alternatives that won't be outsourced to China or other third world nation.
Re:Someone forgot to test (Score:5, Informative)
- the problem is that there simply aren't enough suitable locations to make it grid scale nationwide.
Nuclear
- No argument, but for the next 100 years or so it will be necessary.
Windmills don't kill birds hardly at all. The newer models are geared to be much slower and still provide the same power. Bats however are still at risk due to the pressure changes at the edges.
Solar - uh, who said we can't mine stuff? China just shut down it's production so US production can at least for a bit start back up (obviously not immediately)
And of course, coal has it's own numerous problems, not the least of which is global warming. Nothing's perfect but we should try to find things that don't have the long term side effects that fossil fuels do.
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Solar panels are silicon plus rare earths, not just silicon.
Re:Someone forgot to test (Score:5, Informative)
We have natural gas (methane), of which we have so much we literally burn it off because we don't use it up fast enough. And China, etc. haven't developed their natural gas wells yet (we export natural gas to Asia).
In fact, I'm guessing that once oil gets hard enough, we'll see a rise in natural gas vehicles as part of the mix. We can either burn it directly in an ICE, or use a fuel cell. Not as green since we still have CO2 emissions but it seems like a reasonable stopgap.
Re:Someone forgot to test (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Someone forgot to test (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Someone forgot to test (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:Someone forgot to test (Score:4, Insightful)
"submerged in salt water" is a whole other beast. A nasty one.
Re:Someone forgot to test (Score:4, Informative)
If these batteries are partially exposed from below, they won't do too well in northern states in spring. Melting snow and ice combined with leftover salt used to try to melt winter snow and ice could easily splash up onto the batteries, and if it's been a heavy precipitation winter that could do a number on the batteries.
http://www.dmv.org/how-to-guides/road-salt.php [dmv.org]
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I dunno about Fisker, but Saskpower has had a Mitsubishi i-MiEV driving around for over a year now for promotional purposes. AFAIK, there have been no problems with snow, salt, water on roads, etc., or at least no more than any other car has.
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I would be shocked if the batteryi's are exposed from below.
Pun intended?
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after driving my car though an average minnesota/wisconsin winter, the entire engine, including the top, is covered in a thin layer of salt. all it takes is some water spray (from a car wash or something) to get up there and make salt water on top of the batteries (assuming they are in a open engine bay and not in a sealed trunk)
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Re:Someone forgot to test (Score:5, Funny)
"When I first came here, this was all swamp. Everyone said I was daft to build a Fisker in a swamp, but I built in all the same, just to show them. It sank into the swamp. So I built a second one. That sank into the swamp. So I built a third. That burned down, fell over, then sank into the swamp. But the fourth one stayed up. And that's what you're going to get, Lad, the strongest Fisker in all of England."
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Re:Someone forgot to test (Score:5, Informative)
That's pure lithium. Li-ion batteries use Lithium cobalt oxide or similar salts, which don't react with water like that.
This is likely just a case of the water shorting the battery, causing it to overheat, and ignite something flammable (e.g. upholstery).
FiskEr, not FiskAr (Score:5, Informative)
Come on, editors, get your act together already.
Re:FiskEr, not FiskAr (Score:5, Funny)
Thanks. I was wondering how a pair of scissors caught on fire.
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Thanks. I was wondering how a pair of scissors caught on fire.
You can't run well with these.
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I've got an Fiskars UPS, they've made a lot more than just scissors and common house hold items.
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Sure, just don't feed it after midnight and DON'T GET THEM WET.
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I was amused at he headline, either Earl Hickey or a Hindu must have written it.
I guess it will be a while before Fisker gets mod points! So what got Fisker downmodded enough to hurt its karma? Too much flamebait!
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Why does this matter? (Score:3, Insightful)
The cars were totalled the minute they were submerged. If they were destroyed later, why does that matter?
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Not necessarily. Many cars are flooded and restored.
Re:Why does this matter? (Score:5, Insightful)
You can drive them if you want, I will not be.
A flooded car is a totaled car. No cars on the market are built for that.
I am not going to be buying a flooded car or any other R title.
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How do you 'hide' the damage these cars have?
Re:Why does this matter? (Score:5, Interesting)
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How do you 'hide' the damage these cars have? ;-)
A salvage title, and a LOT of work. A friend of mine just sold a flood-damaged Harley Davidson he rebuilt from the frame up. You can tell from the paperwork that it was destroyed in a flood, but you can no longer tell just from looking at the bike.
And he was committing no fraud: he was very proud of the whole summer's worth of work he put into that bike.
Re:Why does this matter? (Score:4, Interesting)
Apparently I wasn't clear. I meant how do you hide the damage sustained by the Karma's
This is like any other car-totaling event. You can either sell the scorched bits to a scrap dealer, or perform a complete rebuild.
The friend who got the salvage title on his bike was telling me another tale (FOAFOAF, I know) about a guy who bought a Ferrari that was completely destroyed in a garage fire. There was nothing left of the original car but some seriously fire-damaged frame parts. He paid some large amount ($2000 or so) for the remainders of the frame in order to get the serial number. He then incorporated those damaged bits into a complete rebuild of the car from parts. Because of the serial number and the original frame parts, he was able to sell it as a repaired genuine Ferrari instead of as a kit car, and he got a much higher price for it.
The reason it was notable is that he was investigated by the police when he paid for the salvage title. According to FOAF, the primary buyers of salvage titles on totaled out high-end car frames are chop shops, as they can somehow swap out the serial numbers for those on stolen vehicles to make them appear legitimate. Apparently it's common enough that the insurance agent gave the police photographs of the twisted metal, who also didn't believe that he was actually planning to restore the car.
So in 50 years, if and when (but mostly if) these become "classic" cars, there could be a market for a rebuilt '12. Owning the twisted remains of one of these would allow you to legitimately restore one. But that's assuming there's a future market for rebuilt Karmas, of course, and that's a really big assumption. I suspect all of these will end up going for scrap.
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With a salvage title, sure. Otherwise it's fraud IMHO.
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The cars were totalled the minute they were submerged. If they were destroyed later, why does that matter?
It's still a safety issue. I didn't RTFA, but I'd rather not be in a car that catches fire when submerged in water. Granted, I have no plans of driving a car into such conditions. But I'd guess that most people who have ended up submerged in a car didn't either. Depending on the situation, you may need to wait until the interior of the car fills up with water to equalize the pressure before you can open your door, it would rather suck to be cooked to death first wouldn't it?
Electric windows and submersion (Score:3)
I've seen testing - the electronics system will work for at least a few minutes, long enough to get the window down even when fully submerged. Your mileage may vary depending on details of the accident that results in submersion as well as age and make of the car and battery.
But unconscious AND the windows up is a bad way. I carry a spring punch - a hammer won't work as well under water. Useful not only for me, but if I have to be a rescuer.
Re:Why does this matter? (Score:5, Informative)
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That happens to regular cars as well in flood. It is more rare though.
Years ago my grandfather had a car burn down in the driveway. It had been driven home and a few hours later it went up in flames for no apparent reason.
Re:Why does this matter? (Score:5, Funny)
Hey, large swaths of New York City are without power. That means no heat either, and it's pretty cold - so a nice car fire might be welcomed!
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It matters a whole lot if you're in the car when it submerges and catches fire. It also matters a whole lot if it's parked in your garage. Try calling your insurance agent and explaining how your house burned down because of the flood.
Anyone remember high-school chemistry, where the teacher put some sodium in a bowl of water? Lithium is similar - although the reaction is nowhere near as intense, I still don't want to be sitting right on top of a huge stack of lithium batteries when they get submerged.
Re:Why does this matter? (Score:5, Informative)
Actually lots of houses burn down due to floods. A gas line ruptures or electric power issues light the house up and then the fire Dept can't make it there due to the water.
Re:Why does this matter? (Score:4, Informative)
Actually lots of houses burn down due to floods. A gas line ruptures or electric power issues light the house up and then the fire Dept can't make it there due to the water.
Exactly. The houses in Breezy Point are a good example of this.
Re:Why does this matter? (Score:5, Interesting)
I'd be less worried about the lithium-water reaction(Li-ion batteries tend to be sealed, if only so the internals don't degrade even faster than usual, they are touchy things) and more worried about a short circuit anywhere near a battery pack punchy enough to run a car. At 330 volts, you don't need an ultra-low resistance path to get some serious current flowing, and serious current is something that large battery packs are more than happy to supply.
Now, once the electrical heating breaches the seals and touches off a merry metal fire, you have additional problems...
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Try calling your insurance agent and explaining how your house burned down because of the flood.
Did you miss the story about the 6-alarm fire in Queens that burned down 80+ houses? Another newscaster in Jersey saw at least 26 individual fires during a helicopter flyover of the coast. Water is great for putting out fires, sure, but when it ruptures gas lines and creates electrical shorts it turns out that things burn down. There's also a video of a certain Con-Edison substation in lower Manhattan that had a less-than-optimal reaction to being submerged in water.
What if you drove into a flooded area? (Score:2)
Something that happens in flooded streets are people driving in a foot or two of water (which the car can handle) suddenly entering a much deeper area because they cannot see the road lowering with the water above it.
With a normal car, you then sputter to a halt, get out and or wait there for help.
Or an alternate case, less likely but it does happen, is that an accident throws your car into a lake. It sucks, but you make your way out.
Now enter a car that catches fire as soon as it's in deep water. Now you
Re:What if you drove into a flooded area? (Score:5, Informative)
DO NOT DRIVE in a foot of water.
A single foot of water moving sideways is more than enough to take your car off the road. If you cannot see the bottom do not drive through it.
Many cars can handle a foot, SUV's more (Score:3)
What kind of car can handle a foot of water?
Any Jeep or equivalent. Your estimates are way too conservative. [yotatech.com]
But even a MINI Countryman can handle a foot of water... it's in the manual. It's not exactly a high-clearance vehicle.
A lot of modern cars can handle much deeper water than you would think, the tire height alone is not a good indication.
All of the things you mention have to be pretty well sealed anyway to keep various fluids within from getting out... It's all about keeping water out of any air in
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Re:Why does this matter? (Score:4, Insightful)
How about building burns down because water main break cased water to pour into the underground parking garage and onto an electric car that burst into flames?
Or how about Man burns to death as firefighters point out there isn't much point putting water on a car which is on fire because it slid into a pond, became submerged and is burning.
Or maybe, Two first responders were injured after a car erupted in fire because it started raining while they were tending to an accident.
I know a parked car without anyone around doesn't pose much of a threat. But I think in reality, that situation happens as much as or less then when it could be a threat to human life or property. So finding out why is somewhat of a concern I would think.
Re:Why does this matter? (Score:5, Insightful)
why does that matter?
There is an important difference between "totalled" and "erupt into a 1350 deg. C toxic lithium fire." Traditional gas/diesel cars don't usually do that when flooded, so a new and dramatic failure mode has been revealed. Something to note if you live in New Orleans or parts of Texas that see frequent flash floods and perhaps not the best thing to park in your integral garage.
You didn't really fail to understand this did you? You'd just rather people not discuss concerns that emerge with the things you prefer.
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Or something else all together could have started the fire. Like say a hoodlum with a some gasoline.
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Totaled does not mean not working. It means worthless.
That Hilux was rendered worthless. I would not want to drive it nor would Toyota suggest anyone drive it after that treatment.
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"Totaled does not mean not working. It means worthless."
No.
"Totalled" means "beyond what the insurance company considers a cost-effective repair". It is possible to "total" many vehicles with damage which is EASY to repair if you have access to parts.
For example, you can have a car with fired airbags, cracked windshield, and enough damage to easily-removed front end parts such as hood, fenders, bumper cover, etc that the company cuts the owner a check for its value. That car goes to auction, and a buyer wit
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And what exactly is the fire department going to do? Get out the hoses and put more water on it possibly causing it to ignite in more areas?
As for getting into high water, imagine someone going left of center, you swerve to avoid a head on collision but end up in the drainage ditch alongside the road. It's raining and your car starts to damn it up. Or debris and sediment end up blocking the storm drains on a road causing water to back up instead of entering the drain and flowing away. It's not all that diff
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That's a feature: quick self-drying.
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Comparing apples to chimps again are we? You can take a shower and live, but what happens if we submerge you under water for 5-10 minutes? These cars were not made wet, they were drowned. See the difference? If not, don't bother to reply.. you are intentionally not looking.
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Lithium + Water = Fire (Score:5, Informative)
Pretty basic chemistry going on here....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxhW7TtXIAM [youtube.com]
Misleading? (Score:5, Insightful)
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Building the cars' frames out of phosphorus didn't exactly help matters...
Re:Misleading? (Score:4, Funny)
And using a Thermite lining for the battery compartment was just nuts.
Huge problem in Texas - flash floods on the road (Score:5, Interesting)
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Yes I know flash floods happen, but the vast bulk of cars submerged aren't being driven at the time.
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1. Idiots
2. Since the water is usually not as clear as a swimming pool, it may not be obvious how deep the water actually is.
MIX 1 and 2! Result: car driven into flood waters.
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Why did you write Idiots twice?
Driving through water is dumb, driving through water that you do not know the depth of is suicidal.
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As I said there would be instances where it's unavoidable but the VAST VAST majority are.
Re:Huge problem in Texas - flash floods on the roa (Score:5, Interesting)
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If you are driving your car during a flash flood you are none too bright. Lots of ways to die in a conventional car that way.
Most cars that ingest water don't just stall. They also manage to ruin the engine.
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The point of "flash" in flash flood is that it happens extremely rapidly - one doesn't exactly plan ahead for it.
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If you are driving your car during a flash flood you are none too bright. Lots of ways to die in a conventional car that way.
I'm going to assume that where you live, flash flooding is rather uncommon.
One cannot predict when or where a flash flood will occur - hence the 'flash' in the name. So, to say that people who drive "during a flash flood" are "none to bright" only serves to prove your ignorance on the topic.
Were we discussing regular, predictable flooding, I would wholeheartedly agree.
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water...causes fire? (Score:5, Funny)
It's a witch!
Re:water...causes fire? (Score:5, Funny)
It's a witch!
Karma's a witch? Nasty lisp you have there.
Somewhat Expected (Score:2)
Wouldn't be the first government stimulus project to go up in flames. Hopefully it'll be the last.
CO2? (Score:2)
Fisker? (Score:2)
I hardly know her!
Fisker Karma has always been Second Rate (Score:3)
Salt water vs fresh water (Score:2)
Does it make a difference whether they are inundated with any kind of water, or salt water?
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Because they caught on fire?
Re:Why pick on EVs? (Score:5, Insightful)
Because most cars don't burst into flame when submerged.
Re:Why pick on EVs? (Score:5, Insightful)
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Because no other car is going to burst into flames as a result of this.
Being wrecked beyond repaid, sure, but catching fire is a whole different animal.
Anybody who lives in places which get any significant amount of rain is eventually going to drive through a puddle .. if that leads to a smoking lithium flame, well, that's a horrible design flaw.
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Actually regular cars do occasionally catch fire from flooding. Plastic dashboards and damaged wiring are a bad mix.
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Why are we spending tax dollars making scissors?
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So you want to kill people who have a different viewpoint than you. Dude you need help.
Re:Come on (Score:4, Informative)
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Because it had higher storm surge than most category 5 hurricanes do. It also covered a much wider area than any normal hurricane does. The problem was that it was really 3 storms and some very strange weather conditions including the placement of the jet stream and some cold air moving into the area.
You can't rate this just on a simple hurricane scale just like not all magnitude X earthquakes do the same damage. You could have a 6 that does almost no damage and a x that does staggering damage just based on
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Because it's not just the windspeed, it's the size of the storm and the size and intensity of storm surge. Far and away more damage is done from flooding than from the wind.
Re:Superstorm? (Score:5, Insightful)
As someone who also lives in Florida, I can explain.
1. Very little preparation for the type of weather that a hurricane can cause. In Florida, we have storm drains that take away most of the water that a hurricane causes. Add in building codes that require buildings to be designed for hurricanes (typically category 3) and utilities that are designed specifically for hurricanes, and you'll find that down here, things are pretty robust by design. New Jersey and New York didn't have that type of preparation and you had buildings collapse.
2. Record storm surges. In some places, the storm surge was over 13 feet where the harbor was only designed to handle the (then historic record) 12 feet, causing massive flooding.
3. Fires. Gas lines caught fire, causing over 100 homes to burn to the ground.
4. In New Jersey specifically, they had a berm go under water due to the storm surges, causing even more damage.
Ultimately, take a look at the damage predictions and you'll see why its called a superstorm. Wind was only part of the issue.
Re:Seawater + battery = Not Good (Score:5, Informative)
The batteries used in the Tesla don't suffer from this problem. Each individual battery has independent internal circuitry to disconnect the battery if a short is detected or if the voltage goes too high or too low. Additionally, the battery carrier is designed to direct the gases safely away from the car in the event that runaway battery failure does occur to protect the vehicle and any occupants.