Baseball Software Can't Score What Jean Segura Did Friday 223
JimboFBX writes "Interesting piece of baseball history happened on Friday. Jean Segura of the Milwaukee Brewers stole second, tried to steal third too early, but made it back to second before being tagged. The problem was that teammate Ryan Braun already made it to second on the steal attempt. After tags were applied to both baserunners, Segura started trotting to the dugout before realizing that he wasn't out, Braun was, and his only option was to make it back to first. He then of course proceeded to try to steal second base again. The software for keeping the box score? Doesn't (yet) support someone running backwards on the bases. Looks like that will have to change."
Here is video of the sequence.
Had this same problem with women (Score:5, Funny)
I've had this same problem with women. One day you can get to second or even third base, then suddenly you're sent scrambling for first again. Wasn't sure how to score that either, but as long as you're still in the game, it's a win, right? ;)
Re:Had this same problem with women (Score:5, Funny)
Ah, but there's truly no place like 'home'!
Re:Had this same problem with women (Score:5, Funny)
Go straight to fifth base. If you get there, you win, if not, you're saved the trouble of trying for the others.
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Or in some cases: Go straight to jail. Do not pass Go. Do not collect $200.
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We have six, you see. [youtube.com]
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We have six, you see. [youtube.com]
Thank you so much for that. No one does it like Flounder in space!
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It's not so much about what you are able to do one day vs the next... it's when you get caught trying to steal third base, and are sent scrambling back to second, only to find out that it's already occupied. Thinking you're done, you head back to the couch, only to realize that first base is still open... and there you go, safe!
Re:Had this same problem with women (Score:5, Funny)
I've had this same problem with women. One day you can get to second or even third base, then suddenly you're sent scrambling for first again.
At least you got back to 1st base! I was accused of playing short stop when I should have been tending home plate -- I know! Makes no sense, right? That's what I said. Anyway, I held up in the dugout for the rain delay and when I finally was able to step up to bat they had called in a pinch hitter from the bullpen!
That was a pretty foul play, but that's not even the worst of it. The guy turned out to be a catcher batting for the other team! He should have been disqualified so I rushed the mound, but thankfully a Ref was being a real friend and held me back. The managers got involved, and I found out this was more about contract politics than anything. Eventually everyone was ejected from the game for unsportsmanlike conduct.
Now I'm out in deep left, fielding balls all by myself, again...
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Hey we've all been there man. Welcome to Slashdot Sports.
Thanks too, I can't remember reading such an entertaining sports write-up since Jim Murray [wikipedia.org].
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Baseball is a nineteenth-century pastoral game. Football is a twentieth-century technological struggle.
Nice to see I'm not the only one who likes George Carlin!
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If you want to understand why Americans love their country so, go to a baseball game [telegraph.co.uk]
Delivery (Score:2)
If you haven't actually heard Carlin deliver this bit, it's merely interesting. I've heard him deliver it, and at least half the value is in his intonation. Dig up a link if you can find it. Left as an exercise to the reader.
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Does England not have the room for a proper field
Hilarious, because cricket grounds are *much* bigger than baseball grounds ;p
Okay here is a deal: Explain me baseball, and I will explain you Cricket, because frankly baseball is totally whacky for me (not that cricket is any simpler, mind you...)
Re:George Carlin: Baseball vs Football (Score:5, Informative)
Does England not have the room for a proper field
Hilarious, because cricket grounds are *much* bigger than baseball grounds ;p
Okay here is a deal: Explain me baseball, and I will explain you Cricket, because frankly baseball is totally whacky for me (not that cricket is any simpler, mind you...)
In baseball the object is to iterate as many tokens as you can through a 4 slotted dequeue FIFO (implemented internally as a self referencing doubly linked list); Iteration run time is earned by the batting team by causing the hardest to solve ball sorting problems possible for the other team (most entropic ball state). The opposing team manages a counter labeled "Outs" initialized to 0 each "inning". If the counter is incremented to 3 the teams switch objectives, and a the out counter is reset. Each full iteration of a player though the buffer increments a team's "run" variable. The team with the greatest runs wins (typically by earning the most loop execution time).
The team managing the out counter distributes themselves optimally around the field such that they'll be able to detect the ball's location within a short period of time -- AND -- so that they can sort the ball back to their prime ball holder, the "pitcher". To get a chance to increment the out counter (and thus eventually have their turn at bat, and increase their runs) the pitching team gives the batting team a chance to hit the ball (and cause the ball sorting problem). While the ball is being sorted player tokens can iterate through the FIFO buffer nodes (bases). Only one additional player can enter base queue per sorting problem created. The bases are allowed to be null (no players), and players can move in both directions around the loop.
A pitcher must give adequate chance for the ball sorting problem to be created by passing the ball through a volume called the "strike zone" which is created by clipping the prismatic space above home plate to the vertical interval between the batter's knees and the midpoint in their chest. The midpoint is a point half way between the shoulders and top of the pants. Note: Creating an impossible planar strike zone by pulling one's pants down to the knee and bending at the waste to bring the shoulders in line is considered extremely rude "unsportsmanlike conduct". If the batter does not swing at a valid pitch then it is counted against them as a "strike". If the bat is swung at the ball and no valid sorting problem is created it is considered a strike whether the ball passed through the strike zone or not. If a batter accumulates 3 strikes it is converted to an out and their iteration is preempted. The pitcher may throw outside the strike zone to trick the player into leaping at an unfair starting condition, but if the player does not swing at such invalid pitches then they are considered unfit "balls", four such balls allows the player to automatically reach 1st base safely, and if occupied the bases will increment, possibly causing a run to be scored. This is called Walking, since there is no danger of being interrupted. Walks in the park are quite nice, but do not make for good games.
A batter must cause a valid sorting problem with the ball within 3 attempts (swings) at valid pitches, or they lose their chance to enter the FIFO and the out counter is decremented. Valid sorting problems are those where the post-hit ball travel vector is within the area formed by rotating a ray extending from home through base 0 until it intersects base 3 (inclusive). If the valid ball is hit out of the park (or strikes the pole erected along the base lines to make the problem space visible, while above the fence) then the ball sorting problem is considered infinitely complex and the iteration queue can be emptied of all players actively in the FIFO buffer and they all count as runs -- This is called a home run. The ball sorting problem is considered too simple if the ball is caught from out of the air dir
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WHOA! That's a..lot...of explanation
(anybody got a tl;dr? ;p)
This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains.
Sure it can. Watch. * (Score:2)
Everybody knows what an asterisk is for.
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To indicate that a record is somehow tainted, right?
figgers it has to happen in a cubs game (Score:2)
figgers it has to happen in a cubs game when the cubs play odd stuff happens in the games.
they should add more video replay when updating th (Score:2)
they should add more video replay when updating the software.
Better summary title... in Spanish (Score:2)
Why is it a software problem or gap? (Score:2)
It was stupid officiating by the umpires why would somebody assume that the score keepers or software would need to account for this? They should have correctly called them both out because they were both tagged presumably. I've watched the video but this is one of those where the officials f*d up situations. It's kind of like George Brett and the whole Pine Tar shimozzle... [wikipedia.org] where they actually had to restart a game after the League office overruled the officials on the field. How do you score that on
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bases, trotting, dugout!? What IS this? Some sort of millitary or pig (of the oinking kind) reference? C'mon... just ONE clue would be nice!
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=baseball+trotting+dugout [lmgtfy.com]
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It's exactly like soccer.
Re:(YouTube) footage? (Score:4, Insightful)
It's exactly like soccer.
No, if it was like soccer, it would have taken at least 45 minutes to happen, five yellow cards would have been given out, and three fights would have broken out in the stands for no apparent reason.
Re:(YouTube) footage? (Score:5, Funny)
yea but the score would be the same. 2-0
Re:(YouTube) footage? (Score:5, Funny)
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I know you're being funny, but Valencia scored 4 goals in the first 8 minutes of a match earlier today.
Then they scored one goal in the remaining 82 minutes, but whatever. Football owns and you're wrong.
Re:(YouTube) footage? (Score:4, Funny)
Football owns and you're wrong.
Yes it does. Soccer, however, is kind of a funny sport.
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If they're playing against our national team, they can. Easily so.
Re:(YouTube) footage? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:(YouTube) footage? (Score:5, Funny)
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Besides the official warnings being referred to as "yellow cards", exactly how is that different than any random game at Yankee Stadium. ;-)
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No, exactly like football, the sport that actually involves the whole world when it uses the word world for the name of a competition.
Re:(YouTube) footage? (Score:5, Interesting)
Segura attempted to steal third base too early, before the pitcher delivered the ball. Thus when Braun and Segura both wound up on 2nd, only Braun was out - Segura's attempted steal wasn't legit (Segura should never have left the base) therefore Braun's position was invalid and he was tagged. I think had Segura waited he would have been tagged out, since if his steal attempt was legit then Braun's position was fine and Segura would have been invalid.
Anyway, while going back to the dugout he realized he wasn't out, and apparently there is an loophole in the rules which allowed his to then run to the closest available base to be safe, which happened to be first.
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Thanks. Not the AC, but was in the same situation.
Nomen est omen. Of course Segura finds a way to be safe.
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Re:(YouTube) footage? (Score:4, Informative)
No, it's just not a good idea to do from second base where a right-handed pitcher can easily see you leading off and stealing. That also depends on whether the pitcher is throwing from the wind-up or the stretch. Typically, a pitcher delivers from the stretch with runners on base, as the motion is quicker and he can more easily see runners on 1st attempting to steal.
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I hate replying to my own comment, but throwing from the wind-up allows for a delivery mechanic that is more powerful. More force = faster pitch = faster reaction time required to hit. That's why I like baseball - just the act of delivering a pitch has so much complexity that such slight changes can result in differentiation of game outcomes.
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You kinda sound like a friend of mine who tries hard to convince me that there are very sophisticated tactics in soccer. I can't help, it may be too subtle for me to notice. For me, soccer is 22 people who try to hit a funny colored guy by kicking a ball at him. Baseball is basically 10+ people standing around sprinkled on a field waiting for one of them finally deciding to end the suspense and throw a ball, with everyone hoping and praying that the other guy with the bat FINALLY manages to hit that ball se
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I can be. As long as you don't try to convince me sports that consist to 99% of standing around is actually fun.
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Yup. Though my boss actually didn't like it much when I asked him "Still having sex or already playing golf". Because... well, he did.
Re:(YouTube) footage? (Score:5, Informative)
It is not against the rules, and I saw it happen, when Willie Davis of the Dodgers stole second against the New York Mets while the pitcher held the ball the entire time. This was way back when the Mets played in the Polo Grounds. Even thought the Mets were bad, it was still not a nice thing to do. It was one of many incidents that has led to my current mantra:
"If the Dodgers lose, it was a good day in baseball"
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As a San Francisco fan, any day the LA Dodgers or the Dallas Cowboys lose, it's a good day, period.
Re:(YouTube) footage? (Score:5, Informative)
From what I understand of the link: Segura made multiple minor league baserunning mistakes in this play.
Segura was leading off second base and could have attempted to steal third base regardless if the pitcher threw the ball home or not, he just made his first baserunning mistake and went too early for third and saw that the pitcher could have easily thrown him out at third, so then Segura ran back to second before the pitcher could attempt to pick him off at second. Braun made it to second base, and in that situation Braun is automatically called out because two baserunners cannot occupy the same base at the same time. Segura's second baserunning mistake was when he thought he was tagged out on the play, so he started running back to the dugout. A runner more heads-up would know to just stay on second base. So Segura was still safely within the basepath when he was going back to the dugout (if he was outside of the basepath he'd be out) and was close enough to first base that the first base coach told him to get on first base and stay there. Segura possibly made a third mistake when he was never called out by an umpire, yet he still thought he was out on the play.
Segura later attempted to steal second again, but was caught stealing second base, after he had previously stole second base in the same inning without the team batting around. Very bizarre indeed.
Re:(YouTube) footage? (Score:4, Insightful)
Braun is automatically called out because two baserunners cannot occupy the same base at the same time.
Is that the Ball-y Exclusion Principle?
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Naturally [youtube.com]
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From what I understand of the link: Segura made multiple minor league baserunning mistakes in this play. Segura was leading off second base and could have attempted to steal third base regardless if the pitcher threw the ball home or not, he just made his first baserunning mistake and went too early for third and saw that the pitcher could have easily thrown him out at third, so then Segura ran back to second before the pitcher could attempt to pick him off at second. Braun made it to second base, and in that situation Braun is automatically called out because two baserunners cannot occupy the same base at the same time.
Braun should not be called out. Once you advance, the base is yours. The runner who was previously on the base (Segura) must advance to the next base before being tagged out. You are right about two runners not being allowed on the same base, however it is the lead runner who is to be called out when it happens. This is baseball 101, the sort of call little league umps like myself see all the time. I could give the major league umps some slack since pro players don't make such a rookie mistake hardly e
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Seems bizarre that Braun is standing on the bag... but he's considered "out". I mean, you can try steal any time the ball is in play, and presumably when the pitcher is getting ready to deliver the ball to the plate, it's considered "in play".
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Braun was out because he tried to steal an occupied base. It had nothing to do with the timing and everything to do with the fact that a base is considered occupied until:
1) The runner on it advances (which Segura failed to do)
2) The runner on it is declared out (which didn't happen with Segura)
3) The runner on it is forced to vacate it (e.g. a force play, which didn't happen here)
From a technical perspective those antics with the failed steal of third base had no impact on things, so what happened here is
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I'm not sure what you mean by "legit". Segura would have been safe on second because he was the lead runner. The only exception is that in a force situation, a runner cannot be safe on a base he is forced off of.
Interestingly, the ump atually called the play wrong. The whole "the software can't handle it" situation really shouldn't have happened. If you watch the replay closely (or listen to the commentators), you'll notice that Segura was actually tagged a second time right after he took his foot off s
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No. It's a lot simpler than that, since you've kinda mashed the force rule (which doesn't apply here) together with base stealing into something that's incorrect. And then you said that some things were illegitimate or invalid, none of which were. In fact, ironically, you missed commenting on the only invalid action that actually took place in all of this.
The reason Braun was out is simple: you can't steal an occupied base [mlb.com] (see 7.01 and 7.03). Because nothing was forcing Segura to leave second base and he f
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You're right, but the ump didn't see the second tag on Segura while he was calling Braun out. I suppose if the home-plate ump saw it, he could have over-ruled the call. The third baseman didn't need to tag Braun either because he would've been out anyways, the tagging was just for good measure.
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I'm not sure exactly why the umpire called Braun out. Even if Braun and Segura had both been on second in such a way that Braun hadn't passed Segura, Braun would have still been out because only the lead runner is safe when two runners are on a base (except if the lead has been forced off that base, in which case the trailing runner is safe) and Braun had been tagged.
I'd be interested to find out from an umpire whether Braun would have been considered to have passed Segura (as a hypothetical, I mean, where
Re:(YouTube) footage? (Score:5, Informative)
This link someone else posted has a video and a much more comprehensible account of what transpired: http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/mlb-big-league-stew/jean-segura-steals-second-then-steals-first-bizarre-103642855--mlb.html [yahoo.com]
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I know nothing about baseball either, but I think that's the main idea.
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One guy tried to run along three sides of a square and realized he wouldn't make it. He turned back to the second corner from where he started, but that was occupied by some other guy who had come running after him. It looked like both of them were out of the game, but due to an obscure ruling he had the option of moving to the first corner. I know nothing about baseball either, but I think that's the main idea.
Funny, but you're a little late. The naive bumpkin interpreting a sporting event shtick [youtube.com] is at least 60 years old.
Re:(YouTube) footage? (Score:4, Informative)
I think clip is available here: http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20130420&content_id=45278350&vkey=news_mlb&c_id=mlb [mlb.com] - you can clearly see the runner trotting off the field before he realizes that he's not out and safely reaches first.
Also, in this year's World Baseball Classic, Italy made it to the second round (top 8 of 16) and the Netherlands reached the semifinals (top 4). Not a bad showing for the Europeans....
Re:(YouTube) footage? (Score:5, Funny)
I think clip is available here: http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20130420&content_id=45278350&vkey=news_mlb&c_id=mlb [mlb.com] - you can clearly see the runner trotting off the field before he realizes that he's not out and safely reaches first.
Also, in this year's World Baseball Classic, Italy made it to the second round (top 8 of 16) and the Netherlands reached the semifinals (top 4). Not a bad showing for the Europeans....
Wow, so one day there might be a true international baseball competition. It should be called 'The World Series'.
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Segura's on first.
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Estás Segura?
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Of course, there's an updated version of it, starring Dubja and Condi [huji.ac.il].
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... Who's on first?
I don't know.
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No, that's the groupee.
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To quote professor Frink, "Baseball is a game played by the dextrous, but only understood by the pointdexterous."
Unfortunately, I couldn't find a Youtube clip to link to. The episode is "MoneyBart" (Season 22, Episode 3).
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...that JimboFBX needs to get a life. It's fucking Baseball.
The story is about the software used to score games. It appears to have a very difficult to surface bug.
Apart from that, you're an idiot. It's a game of physics, hundred plus mile an hour fastballs through palmballs. It's Mike Scioscia "smallball" vs. the New York Yankees payroll. It's Spring training vs. World Series vs. World Baseball Classic. It's dirt poor kids in sandlots in the Dominican Republic or Venezuela making it to The Show and becoming national heroes. It's seeing Fernando Valenzuela pl
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Huh? So when is a nipple supposed to slip out of something? After all, that's why people watch that crap!
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It's a game of physics, hundred plus mile an hour fastballs through palmballs. It's Mike Scioscia "smallball" vs. the New York Yankees payroll. It's Spring training vs. World Series vs. World Baseball Classic. It's dirt poor kids in sandlots in the Dominican Republic or Venezuela making it to The Show and becoming national heroes. It's seeing Fernando Valenzuela playing against the Calgary Cannons, fighting his way back into the majors (he made it).
Beats the crap out of shit like the NFL and NBA and there's no cheerleaders or glitzy half-time shows.
To all that I simply reply, "Zzzzzzzzz". I feel the same about football and basketball.
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Re:Reminds me of this book (Score:5, Interesting)
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Are you sure? Can I please get a source on that?
The following links says otherwise. (Though admittedly they are unreferenced and generally not trust-worthy).
1 [yahoo.com]
2 [yahoo.com]
3 [yahoo.com]
4 [yahoo.com]
5 [answers.com]
6 [straightdope.com]
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Re:Reminds me of this book (Score:5, Insightful)
It takes real courage to admit your own mistakes. You have my respects.
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Re:Reminds me of this book (Score:5, Interesting)
When they resumed the infamous "Pine Tar" game, several months later, Billy Martin appealed at each base, claiming that George Brett didn't touch all the bases.
However, the umpires were ready, and had affadavits from the original umpiring crew stating that he had.
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I remember reading about a different player doing that a million years ago in an old "Ripley's believe it or not" book that I had. I don't remember the player's name, but it wasn't anybody well-known like Ruth. The story there was that he missed second base so he ran around again to get it. A quick Google search doesn't turn up anything.
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So a sport that's based on doing as little physical activity as possible for it to still count as a sport suddenly requires you to do more running than strictly necessary?
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You have NO idea what you're talking about. Ask Robin Ventura, who hit a ball out of the park with the bases loaded, but was mobbed before he could round second base: he was officially credited with a single, known to Mets fans as "The Grand Slam Single." Game 5 1999 NLCS.
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All bases have to be touched, including home plate. If the hitter is unable to make it, a pinch-runner will have to do it for him, it's happened before.
I've also played in a game where the hitter who hit the homerun was so ecstatic that he missed first base during his homerun trot. On the next plate appearance the pitcher pitched out to first base and the previous batter was called out, so no homerun on that at-bat!
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What does a software package that scores a game have to do with record keeping.
If you we were talking about record keeping we would be talking about storage, not software.
Re:What is the Point of this Software? (Score:5, Informative)
This is the software that codes those records for storage. "Scoring" in baseball in this sense means compiling the records of what happened in the game, the kind of stuff you see printed in a newspaper box score and stored in game databases.
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Baseball scoring isn't just the two teams points at the end of the game. Take a look at a baseball scoresheet, it's not something that just records who got points when. Like football passing and rushing yards, receptions, completions, picks, sacks, etc, baseball records where each player ends up at the end of each play. It started simple, just tracking whether you hit a single, double, triple, home run, ground rule double, in field home run, and how many RBI for the batting team, and catches, outs, errors,
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Oh, so it's cricket. Hit ball; Run.
Dear god, wait. You didn't give any indication when to stop running. Do you just keep running until the game is called on account of exhaustion? Holy Hell. No wonder there's no fat guys.
Re:To write software that can score baseball (Score:5, Informative)
No, that's what retarded people think "understanding baseball" means. The rule book is actually littered with dozens of complications: ground rule double, infield fly rule, fourth-out rule, etc. The basics of the game are simple, but there are a lot of corner cases in unusual situations, including the one this article is talking about.
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This is actually a lesson also for people who feel the urge to install overly rigid procedures. Yes, you eliminate the "human factor" that way, but that human factor can work in your favor if you use it correctly. Of course you have to review every use of it thoroughly, but these are the "freak accident" exceptions. My security procedures actually provide for such decisions, and not only makes it the employees much happier to know that they have some "power of decision" at their disposal, it did already ser
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As someone else pointed out (and on the video), Segura stayed on the basepath.
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I know no one bothers to RTFA, but in this case if you WTFV you would have seen that Segura never was more than a foot or two off the base path at any time during this whole ordeal.
He stepped slight inside the infield grass running back to 2nd, but still easily within the acceptable limits of the imaginary basepath, and he stepped a few steps off of 1st as if he was going to the dugout but was stopped by the 1st base coach.
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