Google and Microsoft Both Want To Stop Dual-Boot Windows/Android Device 153
An anonymous reader writes "The laptop has undergone many changes over the past decade. At various times, netbooks, ultrabooks, and Chromebooks have been en vogue. Over the past several months, we've seen signs of the next step in the laptop's evolution: Android/Windows dual-boot laptops. Several companies have built these machines already, including Asus and its upcoming Transformer Book Duet TD300. However, neither Google nor Microsoft seem to want such an unholy marriage of operating systems, and they've both pressured Asus to kill off the dual-boot product lines. Asus has now complied. 'Google has little incentive to approve dual-OS models, since that could help Microsoft move into mobile devices where Android is dominant. ... Microsoft has its own reasons for not wanting to share space on computers with Google, particularly on business-oriented desktop and laptop PCs that could give the Internet giant an entry point into a Microsoft stronghold. Computer makers that make dual-OS machines risk jeopardizing a flow of marketing funds from Microsoft that are an important economic force in the low-margin PC business.'"
Forget the customer (Score:5, Insightful)
So neither perspective or any reason has the customers interests in mind.
Re:Forget the customer (Score:5, Insightful)
Quite the contrary, if the customer didn't want this, they wouldn't care about it.
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Let's remember who Google's customers are (hint: it's not the users). I think Google is specifically thinking of their customers in this move. It's the opposition from MS that baffles me.
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Both are working to target the same concept, tying the operating system to the device. They both hate the idea of the consumer believing the operating system that came with the device is disposable and can be readily replaced with the OS of your choice, say a flavour of Linux. Two OS's on a device, hmm why not three or more specifically why not replace those two with a third alternate OS. So basically both companies are using the size and predatory power to try to keep other Operating systems out of the ma
Re:Forget the customer (Score:5, Insightful)
Whether it's a niche market or not makes no difference. Many of us dual boot systems because our jobs require us to have knowledge of numerous operating systems, and to stay abreast dual booting has been a cheap way of using hardware I purchased to learn and grow in knowledge. I know many people who use dual boot for the same reason. Whether it's a phone or a PC makes no difference. It's "my" hardware that "I" purchased with "my" money. In my case, my company also purchases hardware and dual boots for the same reason that I do.
Neither Google or Microsoft give away the hardware, so they should not be able to force customers to use their operating system. Obviously they should not be at risk of a device gets bricked by someone setting up dual boot or a 2nd OS, but that's not the same thing.
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But customers can still dual boot if they install it themselves, right?
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MS has a history of breaking dual booting systems. I had OS/2 which included the IBM Bootmanager to allow dual booting. Installed Win95 (and same with Win98, never tried ME) and at the end of the install it informed the user that the OS/2 partition was no more. No warning to back up your data or anything. I was knowledgeable enough to use fdisk to set the active partition to the Bootmanager partition and was back in business as the OS/2 partition was still there. How many people didn't know the fix and lost
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Of course it overwrites the boot sector - how else would it enable the boot loader to run? Complaining that it installs the boot loader is just stupid. And expecting them to add Windows to grub's conf file is a bit rich, considering I don't believe I've ever seen a Linux install suggest "Do you want to install the boot loader, or add Linux to the Windows BCD?"
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The boot loader can boot Linux. Edit boot.ini/BCD to add vmlinuz (or a physical disk specification with a Linux boot loader) to it, and Linux becomes another option on NTLDR's boot menu. You can even make it default if you want.
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nobody is saying that you can't dual boot your own hardware, they are just saying they aren't going to sell it like that out of the box, which is their prerogative.
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It undermines the whole point of having a locked in operating system on the system and all the security features. Now you can poke and prod at one OS from the other. I like the idea - if one OS gets bricked by some update you received the minute you got off the plane, you can flip to the other one.
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How is it "an otherwise legal use of the product"? The Windows operating system and the Google Play Store application are copyrighted.
So is nearly every book in my little home library**, but I'll be damned if any publisher or author will tell me what shelf those books go on, or what books I can set any given book next to. Put it this way: If I want to set my Isaac Asimov novels next to my Robert Heinlein novels, I will. Any publisher who objects? Screw 'em; no court will enforce such a demand on me by either party.
For relevance, I can safely say that no software house will be able to successfully litigate against someone who successfully
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Having books on a shelf in your own home, is like taking any laptop and making it dual boot yourself. Nothing stops you from doing that.
I believe the issue here is if you sold a book that was a bastard marriage of Tolkiens Lord of the Rings and Kings Dark Tower all in one.
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It would be like packaging Lord of the Rings along with the Dark Tower and Huckleberry Finn. As long as the Tolkien and King books were purchased legally and the packaging didn't use artwork and such, what would be the problem?
.
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And next we'll read of publishers suing Amazon to the their "Customers Who Bought This Item Also Bought ..." lists. This is just encouraging customers to ask for a package that contains books from different authors or different publishers. (But they do also use it to suggest other works by the same author.)
The most rational response to such perversions might be to simply eliminate the copyright laws. The primary function of such laws is for blocking useful things like we're discussing here.
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Totally eliminating copyright seems a bit extreme though it really needs to be massively shortened and simplified.
Be a good starting point in negotiations though. Unluckily elected governments always seem more interested in supporting business then the people. As much as people don't like the idea of an unelected house such as the House of Lords, it was them who originally forced the original copyright terms to be reasonable (14+14yrs) with works then entering the public domain for "The Advancement of Learn
Re: Forget the customer (Score:2)
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So. I have numerous books on one shelf and pick which ever I want to read. I have numerous partitions on my computers hard drive and pick which ever I want to use. Just like the books are partitioned by their covers, the operating systems on my computer are separated by logical partitions.
Just like someone could sell me a pre-populated bookshelf or box of books, they should be able to sell me a pre-populated computer.
One copy of two works (Score:2)
Re:Forget the customer (Score:5, Insightful)
How is it "an otherwise legal use of the product"? The Windows operating system and the Google Play Store application are copyrighted.
ASUS wasn't installing illegal copies of the product, they had licenses for both. As such, unless the license states you can't install on a system with any other OS, which it does not, then how was it illegal? I can buy an ASUS with Windows 8 and I can buy one with Android. Evidently, I can't buy one that lets me choose Windows 8 or Android at boot time.
ASUS conceded, not because of legality, but because of business relationships with the two software giants. If they were dual booting debian and fedora and were told to stop, they would have flipped them a bird because debian and fedora don't heavily influence their bottom line. Microsoft and Google, however, do, and used their vast market power to force ASUS into submission or face the consequences. It's bad enough for one company too big to fail to do it, but for two of them to gang up and do it, seems like the US Justice department should be investigating what happened. Oh, wait, Microsoft and Google already control the USJ department.
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unless the license states you can't install on a system with any other OS, which it does not
As I understand this article and others like it, the license of the OEM version of Windows and the license of Google Play Store probably have exactly such a provision.
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They are merely copyrighted. Once I have the license to use it, I can use it in any fashion that I choose. Car analogy? I purchase a brand new Rolls Royce, and drive it straight to a body shop to have it altered to my tastes. Chop the top off, extend the frame. install a suana and a bar, and go cruising around like some Hollywood mogul. Or, instead, I install a collapsible deer stand so that I can go hunting with my hunting club. Rolls certainly didn't envision my use of their brand new car, did they
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If these guys had customers in mind, they wouldn't make a half baked half assed hybrid between windows and android.
Not that I'm slamming either, but, this makes about as much sense as a toaster refrigerator combo.
Re:Forget the customer (Score:5, Funny)
I dunno, I see it as a toaster meatloaf peeler combo. In an environment where your job required a meatloaf peeler (although you don't see the use) and what you personally really need is to toast some bread.
Ok, that sounded better in my head.
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Actually, that made perfect sense. AND I thought it was funny. I have mod points, but wanted to let you know beyond +1 Funny or +1 Insightful
Thanks
Re:Forget the customer (Score:4, Informative)
What kind of job do you do that requires a meatloaf peeler?
Among others, Oracle ASM disk management.
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When you burn it in the oven, it needs to be peeled first.
Some people do this repeatedly so I imagine there is a market for a meatloaf peeler.
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What kind of job do you do that requires a meatloaf peeler? ... I've eaten a lot of meatloaf in my day and I've never had to peel it first.
You obviously don't work for the company that I do. The meatloaf-peeler vendors have persuaded our management that meatloaf peeling is an important capability these days, and any company that hasn't adopted this new approach to meatloaf consumption is doomed to quick obsolescence. So, whether our jobs need it or not, we are all being supplied with the top-selling meatloaf peeler, and other brands are banned from our desks.
But don't worry, your bosses will see the light soon, and a new MS meatloaf peele
Re:Forget the customer (Score:5, Funny)
If these guys had customers in mind, they wouldn't make a half baked half assed hybrid between windows and android.
Androws!
no no no, wait...
Windroid!
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http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0551912/ [imdb.com]
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It's more like having a refrigerator with a freezer.
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I'm thinking more of a dish washer with a built in spin dryer.
Re:Forget the customer (Score:5, Insightful)
I really don't care about dual booting - in my experience the machine spends most of its time in one environment, and the one time you do switch its got a months worth of patches to install.
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Not a problem here. If you spend all your time in Windows that is, because you can bet the Android side won't get a lick of patches!
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To be honest, dual-boot has traditionally been a very bad user experience as each OS has different ideas about where user files should go, how permissions on the filesystem should work, etc. Each OS is so isolated from each other that getting your files across OSes is a total pain. Not to mention the fact that reboots are incredibly destructive to user state anyway - I have three or four OS installs on my desktop and I only bother using the Ubuntu install because it's the most balanced for my needs. I don't
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As long as you dont have alternatives, the customer's interests come last. There is a line you dont want to cross when you start to lose customers, but that point hasn't been reached.
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I think I have my next project, then? (Score:1)
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Compile the open part of the OS for x64, and use dynamic recompilation to run the closed Google services parts and apps.
But how would your emulator obtain a lawfully made copy of "the closed Google services parts" and any applications that happen not to be available through Amazon Appstore, through F-Droid, or as a loose .apk?
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Actually, that would be really cool. Run Android under a hypervisor (Hyper-V maybe? It's a Type 1 so runs on the bare metal) and allow it to just open up in a window and communicate over the VMbus with the management OS (under Hyper-V, there is no host OS - the OS you see is actually just another VM but with access to more information about the metal it's running on). Possibly even snap it to the side somewhat like the Xbox One (actually, why can't Hyper-V be snapped?). Be awesome for devs.
Okay, now I can say it. And be happy. (Score:2, Insightful)
Fuck Google AND Microsoft.
Re:Okay, now I can say it. And be happy. (Score:5, Funny)
Always TWO Sith there are...
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Where do Zuckerberg and Ellison fit into this Lucasian demonology?
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Where do Zuckerberg and Ellison fit into this Lucasian demonology?
One is from Naboo and the other from the forest moon of Endor. I'll let you decide which is which...
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nothing new... (Score:1)
why not just spend the hour that it takes to set up your own linux/windows dual boot?
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If you're going to spend the time, why not configure your own virtual environment, where you can run both simultaneously?
Finally, a valid use for the Windows key: to switch your machine in and out of Windows!
All at your expense (Score:2, Insightful)
Don't make any mistake about it anymore. Google has been falling into the old footsteps of 1990s Microsoft for some time. They're moving to close source anything of value, they're moving to prevent anyone who isn't on board with Google from making decent Android devices, and they're moving to prevent multi-boot.
Welcome to 1999. Google is evil.
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And in the meantime, Apple had Boot Camp since early versions of OS X and are also providing the Windows drivers for their own computers.
Welcome to 2014. Apple are the good guys.
Eh..... (Score:4, Informative)
* Apple has Boot Camp because they have to allow Dual Booting in order to lure in the majority of computer users—Windows users. They sure as hell aren't helping Linux users out.
* Apple introduced Boot Camp when they were still user-friendly—before they started constructing their walled guarden (located at 1984 Infinite Loop).
* Of course Apple provides the Windows drivers for Apple's own machines; every vendor that supports Windows has always had to do so.
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Can't you use Boot Camp for Linux or any other operating system?
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Just because you can does not mean it's supported.
Guess what? It's not supported.
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Re:Eh..... (Score:4, Interesting)
* Apple has Boot Camp because they have to allow Dual Booting in order to lure in the majority of computer users
Most users who want to use Windows software on a Mac will use some virtual solution like Parallels; then they can run Windows and MacOSX software at the same time, without waiting 5 minutes for a reboot.
Really, I think someone deep inside Apple did it as a prank. It is great fun to hang out at Starbucks, and watch the reaction of all the other MacBook users when they suddenly realize that you are running Windows.... on a MacBook.... heads have been known to explode.
* Of course Apple provides the Windows drivers for Apple's own machines; every vendor that supports Windows has always had to do so.
There are enough drivers built in to a standard Windows distribution to allow most common hardware to just run, no special vendor drivers needed.
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It's really time to move to an honestly open computing model, so we can rely on long term supported systems that aren't being screwed with on a whim by people wearing business hats.
Re:All at your expense (Score:4, Informative)
And having installed Macs using Boot Camp, it's one of the slickest ways to install Windows. The tool basically creates a boot (DVD/USB/etc) with the drivers slipstreamed in and everything, so you install Windows and everything just works.
Previous versions of Boot Camp did require you to install the drivers after Windows, but modern versions slipstream them in, so after installing, everything is loaded. No need to hunt through Windows Update and websites downloading and installing drivers.
And no crapware, either. Only Apple can make installing Windows easy.
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Maybe I'm missing out on something here, but I find installing Windows to be extremely easy all around. It's been years since I've had to hunt down drivers after an install.
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Some people think still using 12-year-old OSes is a good idea.
"And having used Apple's AutoEngineStarterCrank, it's one of the slickest ways to start your car. Sure, early Apple cars required you to turn the crank by hand, but these days you just get out, plug the AutoEngineStartCrank into the front of the car, and it does the work for you!"
As "no crapware", somebody hasn't looked very closely at the Apple drivers... Feature-crippled and riddled with security vulnerabilities compared to the standard ones th
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My personal experience is that installing Windows often runs into snags.
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Except Apples drivers for Windows are really bad, not fully featured and they regularly deprecate versions of Windows on their kit for no reasons - for instance Windows 8 on 2006 Quad Core Mac Pros with 16GB ram, or indeed any 64bit install of Windows on that hardware will cause Bootcamp to say "nope", despite it working perfectly well.
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Seriously crappy drivers, mind you (I've found trivial EoP-to-kernel-from standard-user bugs in them), but at least they exist...
Confederacy of Dunces (Score:3)
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." —Jonathan Swift
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good quote, crappy book.
What does the consumer want? (Score:2)
Personally I don't care what OS I use as long as I can accomplish the task at hand. I find all OS's missing some functionality. Some do it deliberately and others are missing the developers and/or resources. Android is my preferred mobile platform and OSX is my referred desktop platform. As it stands now both will lose from this choice since I may go for the Air instead of a combo.
NeXTSTEP? (Score:1)
we've seen signs of the next step in the laptop's evolution
Who would want a dual boot a laptop with an OS that has been dead for almost 20 years?
NeXTstep Mavericks (Score:2)
But... but... but... (Score:3)
Open! Right? [twitter.com]
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I think they shouldn't forbid vendors from going this route. But it seems like a major waste of money. Its always going to be more expensive than either a Chromebook or a Windows netbook.
The major problem it has is it needs to pay the Microsoft tax to exist. That is no way to displace Microsoft from the market.
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More like "but who will get paid for the patent licensing if it's both a Windows and Android device?"
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A pox on... (Score:2)
Well, you know.
I can't freely switch between Android and Windows? (Score:1)
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All sounds good, until you need to lug around either a heavy bulky laptop or spend a lot of money for a light one, with the enough battery so you can go around with a full work station for real work. When you are web browsing and running simple apps most of the time. You are better of getting a cheap tablet or chromebook with a Data Plan and have your Linux running on a server where you can access for nearly anywhere.
So if you are going to access your server from a low end thin client. What should your co
Price of a data plan (Score:2)
until you need to lug around either a heavy bulky laptop or spend a lot of money for a light one
I learned on Scroogled.com a couple weeks ago that 10" Windows laptops are back in production.
You are better of getting a cheap tablet or chromebook with a Data Plan and have your Linux running on a server where you can access for nearly anywhere.
If you're going to just use a Chromebook as an X11 or VNC terminal for a GNU/Linux VPS, how much does a data plan for that cost over the 48-month expected service life of a laptop? And how well does 3D graphics (e.g. Blender) tunnel over such a connection?
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Why are you trying to sync your mobile toy with my LAMP!?!?
Like Linux? Get an HP printer and scanner. (Score:2)
Do let us all know when you have solved basic issues like drivers for printers, scanners
The printer and scanner on my HP OfficeJet 4500 work well with Ubuntu, and any PC running Chrome can act as a proxy for printing from an Android device.
sync with mobile devices
True, GNU/Linux has had trouble communicating with Android over MTP. But Android Debug Bridge works, as does setting up a Samba share on your GNU/Linux PC and accessing it with Rhythm Software File Manager for Android.
WinDroid: Guaranteed to be a shitty experience (Score:2)
If you think it's a bad experience when you have a single OS (plus first-party apps) vendor, and a separate manufacturer (e.g.: my Lenovo and it's bevy of task-tray items), try it now with two fully supported OSs out of the box.
While I agree that it sucks that Google and Microsoft both are trying to defeat this initiative, I can also say with a 95% certainty that even if the both condoned it, it would still be a really bad experience.
Google's hypocrisy with android being "Open" is what's really exposed here
Note to OEMs, ODMs: (Score:2)
.
Rreferring to complementary goods in general? (Score:2)
If your product relies on a 3rd-party to actually attract customers (and/or make a profit), your business model is flawed and you're doomed.
Are petrol stations doomed because they rely on automakers to bring in customers? Are game console makers* doomed because they rely on third-party developers to attract customers, and vice versa?
* Other than Nintendo, whose consoles rely heavily on the first-party lineup.
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If your product relies on a 3rd-party to actually attract customers (and/or make a profit), your business model is flawed and you're doomed.
Are petrol stations doomed because they rely on automakers to bring in customers?
Petrol works for all cars.
Software and OSs doesn't work on all hardware. Esp. mobile.
In addition, petrol stations usually don't get kickbacks from car-manufacturers.
AFAIK, though, a couple of years ago, independent petrol-stations in the UK went bust when supermarket-chains started selling gas below cost for a couple of months...
But hey, if you think that ASUS, Acer et.al. have a viable, future-proof business model: go ahead, their stock is publicly traded ;-)
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Dual boot is stupid (Score:1)
android-x86.org? (Score:1)
Information just wants to *SIGNAL DROP* (Score:1)
Information just wants to be free.
Or at least 1/20th the cost we get overcharged for substandard service in the US while real First World nations get real Internet, real dual boot, and real security.
You can always dual boot the other way and not "tell" the Win side about the removable 2 TB SDD you have.
Less competition (Score:2)
Seems like neither Google nor Microsoft wants to compete with the other, so they partitioned the PC market with Google getting the mobile part and Microsoft the desktop. Business as usual.
The road to irrelevance (Score:2)
Begins with fucking over your customers for selfish reasons.
Think of all the names (Score:1)
We could have given their bastard children..
Metroid
Winroids
Andows
A good enough reason (Score:2)
for people, consumer organisations and politicians to promote dual (or more) boot devices...
Model name: Blivet (Score:2)
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Silly rabbit, the US hasn't used anti-trust law enforcement since Reagan.
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I own a PC I built myself that is running Windows 7, and I have a Samsung Galaxy S4 running an Android 4.2 custom ROM, and I think the market is already competitive enough.
Yea and my oven dispenses delicious chocolate chip cookies if you put the right ingredients inside of it and open the door at just the right time.
I think it is unfair to say "Now we want you to design your hardware to be able to run your competitor's OS." That is going too far.
As a consumer I am sick of the silos, walled gardens and license to fuck over the customer that comes with each vendors try at "ecosystem lockin"
Reality is there is too much value bottled up for the current state of affairs to be sustainable over the long haul. Both hardware and software will become more modular like PCs in the future. Prior technical excuses of
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Huh? What does that have to do with my first sentence? I was simply stating that I own devices from both markets, therefore I speak from experience, that's all. Not sure what the confusing reply is all about...
What does building PC and owning an S4 have to do with your assertion of an already competitive enough market? Makes no sense hence the cookies.
Fuck over the customer? Nobody is twisting your arm, forcing you to buy a phone or computer
I am forced to use computers and mobile phones just as I am forced to drive a car. It is not possible to elect not to do these things without suffering unacceptable consequences. Hence my desire for viable solutions free of vendor bullshit.
Sorry, but I call bullshit. Who exactly is creating that value? Not you, not me, and it doesn't magically appear out of thin air.
App vendors. They have every interest in the world in maximizing their customer base which means tearing down those silos.
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@ s.petry who was talking about dual booting saving them money in their job. You know why your job exists in the first place? Because there are different companies that have created separate, yet popular ways of doing things.
Why my job exists is because I'm awesome (in addition to being modest)! I started working IT before Windows existed, but I have not been locked into Windows, Redhat, Solaris, AIX, HP-UX, IRIX, SCO OpenServer, TRUE, OS-400 or MVS. I have surely worked on all of those things at some point, but absolutely none of my career has relied on a specific company or "popular" product. I'm adaptive, I can deduce and solve problems, I can look at large environments and implement my own software when no product exists
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But they aren't the same device. Windows phones are made by Microsoft, and Android phones are made by Google, Samsung, etc..
First things you should do is some homework to see how wrong you are. Phones use the same basic hardware to function no matter what the OS running on them. This is intentionally done to make the cost lower and not something a consumer has any control over.
I have a WebOS tablet that runs Android, and I have PCs that run Debian, Redhat, Backtrack, and Windows. There are people at work running several versions of Android on the same phone, as well as a Windows phone that can also run Android. So they are t
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Because Linux devs still haven't made an REALLY good default GUI to this day *holds up Unity as an example*
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Elop.