Jesse Jackson To Take On Silicon Valley's Lack of Diversity 397
New submitter wyattstorch516 writes "San Jose Mecury News reports that Jesse Jackson will lead a delegation to HP's next board meeting to discuss the hiring of technology companies in regard to African-Americans and Latinos. 'About one in 14 tech workers is black or Latino both in the Silicon Valley and nationally. Blacks and Hispanics make up 13.1 and 16.9 percent of the U.S. population, respectively, according to the most recent Census data.' Jackson sent a letter to HP, Apple, Google, Twitter, Facebook, and others about meeting to discuss diversity issues."
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Unjust (Score:5, Funny)
When you think of all the good people that suffered long, painful deaths from cancer this year, it is simply a travesty of justice that Jackson was not one of them.
Re:Fuck that guy. (Score:5, Interesting)
there is probably a more nuanced discussion to be had about affirmative action
but having been in the hiring seat, I can tell you that almost every single
applicant is white and male, and very few of those are actually qualified
so unless Jackson thinks HP should hire unqualified people just because
they are black or latino, he should probably focus his efforts earlier
in the pipeline
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Fuck that guy. (Score:5, Interesting)
Pretty much. I've had arguments with a lot of people over affirmative action, and 95% of the time they think it helps Asians get a job and education. Basically they think it helps everybody but whites, and they themselves are huge advocates of white guilt. They quickly shut up once I show them facts about how affirmative action actually fucks over Asians pretty bad, in fact it screws them much worse than white people, mainly because they have an even higher interest in higher education and the high tech career fields than whites do while being an even smaller portion of the population than blacks.
The problem with affirmative action is it assumes that a given percent of every race is interested in x career or y school, but that just doesn't reflect reality one bit. Take music for example; by far more black people are into rap, but there's nothing inherent about rap that makes them like it more or white people like it less. The underlying cause of this schism is a simple cultural difference. The same thing is likely to cause them to be less interested in IT careers, so they don't even apply for those jobs.
Re:Fuck that guy. (Score:5, Interesting)
"The problem with affirmative action is it assumes that a given percent of every race is interested in x career or y school, but that just doesn't reflect reality one bit. "
It's not just this. Even when black students are interested in STEM careers, affirmative action puts them in a position where their white and Asian classmates are much better prepared and capable to handle difficult STEM classes. As a result they get poor grades, feel demoralized, and transfer to easier majors. This is called the "mismatch problem."
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03... [nytimes.com]
and
http://blogs.sciencemag.org/sc... [sciencemag.org]
Re:Fuck that guy. (Score:5, Insightful)
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Prison population. Not that I'd want to give the police departments any tips on implementing affirmative action programs, but something other than the current confirmation bias program they have targeting the black community would be good.
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I don't think "affirmative action" means what you think it means. "Affirmative action" as applied is a system were underrepresented minorities are given a preference in admissions and hiring. Asians aren't an underrepresented minority in just about anything. In fact, they represent overwhelming majorities in many areas and are the most hurt by skin-color preference programs (aka "Affirmative Action").
We may hold different opinions on whether we should judge someone based on the color of their skin (I don't think we should), but we certainly can't argue fact, and how "affirmative action" is applied is fact.
Define "underrepresented".
If you just go by percentage of population, maybe you're right.
But what if, because of "affirmative action", a lower percentage of Asians who want to be doctors gets to be doctors than some other race? If 10 Asians want to be doctors, and 5 blacks, but because of "affirmative action" you admit all 5 blacks to medical school but only 3 Asians, who's "underrepresented"?
And no matter how you slice it, "affirmative action" is LITERALLY racist.
Never mind the fact "underrepresented" is
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That's a nice story but Asian Americans are all minorities and qualify for affirmative action just as well as any other minority.
All fine and dandy until the quota's been met and they need to let other, less deserving, people in because they need to make a racial quota.
.
Comment removed (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Fuck that guy. (Score:5, Informative)
Actually what he doesn't realize is that affirmative action is very much applying to Asians. A) It shits on them B) It is working as intended.
Don't believe me? Here you go:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/a... [thedailybeast.com]
There's a certain irony in the fact that white students usually bring these affirmative action lawsuits (and that defenses of affirmative action are often framed in terms of white privilege). The evidence seems to show that if completely race-neutral admissions policies were adopted at colleges and universities, the admissions rates for blacks and hispanic would fall dramatically . . . but the admissions rates for whites wouldn't change much. The primary beneficiaries would be Asian students, who would fill nearly four out of five of the extra admissions slots.
So in other words, the research shows that if affirmative action was removed, whites would be unaffected, but Asians would replace blacks and hispanics in big numbers.
So what is the end result of affirmative action? Asians get fucked, and a sizable number of hispanics and blacks who are given these position in their place really shouldn't be there. No matter how you slice it, everybody loses here, even if you believe in white guilt and that white people need to be punished (affirmative action doesn't currently appear to punish them.)
So I still stand by my statement that the claim that "95% of people think affirmative action is to help Asians" has got to be incorrect.
I didn't make that claim. What I said was 95% of the ones I argue with about it say that.
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First, I don't know what the daily beast is trying to say. I'm not a regular reader of that website, rather I just pulled the first thing I found to back my claim; if you actually read slashdot regularly you'll find multiple sources saying the same thing on a somewhat recurring basis, and they come from all kinds of different sources.
Is the daily beast biased? Who knows, but bias or not when you're right, you're right, and when you're wrong, you're wrong. If Hitler said night was black, I'm not going to arg
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And Jessie? If I were an American of African descent, I wouldn't vote for, er, ... never mind.
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there is probably a more nuanced discussion to be had about affirmative action
but having been in the hiring seat, I can tell you that almost every single
applicant is white and male, and very few of those are actually qualified
so unless Jackson thinks HP should hire unqualified people just because
they are black or latino, he should probably focus his efforts earlier
in the pipeline
What Jesse seems unaware of is there's a very small pool of qualified "diverse candidates" and they are generally snapped up pronto by employers who want to be able to compete for contracts where a stipulation favors an employer with diverse employees.
Mr. Jackson seems rooted in an age that has long since gone by. What he needs to do is tell the people he claims to represent, "pull up your damn pants, don't get ugly tattoos all over your body, learn to address people in respectful language and study your a
Re:Fuck that guy. (Score:4, Insightful)
"It's not because of racism, it's because black people sag their pants, get tattoos*, are disrespectful, and lazy."
Oh, okay.
*Side note, I work in a non-technical white collar job, and a surprising number of my colleagues have tattoos.
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"It's not because of racism, it's because black people sag their pants, get tattoos*, are disrespectful, and lazy."
Oh, okay.
*Side note, I work in a non-technical white collar job, and a surprising number of my colleagues have tattoos.
Tats aside, how many pull their pants up and speak clear and proper English when it comes to interviews? I don't think we'd feel much compulsion to grand our time to interview someone who can't make the effort.
If you must have tats, keep them clean or covered during work. Customers sometimes roam cubeville or the shop and may be offended - that's the word from the top.
Re:Fuck that guy. (Score:4, Insightful)
Maybe it's time that interviewers stopped judging people on irrelevancies like clothing style.
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That.
And generally there's more than one round of interviews. Whenever I've interviewed there's been a screening - "let's see what this guy's like" interview, which is generally followed by the "brass tacks" interview - "let's see what this guy knows and thinks he can do."
If you can't impress the screening interview you've already failed the brass-tacks one, where you'd have a chance to cinch the job on your skills merits.
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Well, that's what your anecdotes say. Mine suggest that the slickly dressed goons with the degrees are the ones who ask the one guy dressed in a tshirt or polo shirt for help. As my language suggests, I'm talking about what should be, not what is.
A focus on skills over highschool level clique behavior like fretting over fashion would benefit the business world in general.
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You can flip that first argument around very easily. Employers who enforce dress codes are thinking: "People who think clothing fashion trends and social conformity are more important than getting work done are insecure adolescents who still haven't graduated highschool."
An interview should model a typical day on the job. Pointless trick questions about 'goals' and personal life, along with passive-aggressive gamesmanship, are bullshit.
This status quo basically calls for one to lie, to project a false imag
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Sounds like you spend most of your time hiring and/or working for insecure adolescents who still haven't graduated highschool. What someone wears is of little consequence for a desk job. Why would you ask for commitments from 'third parties' who judge on such irrational means? I wouldn't trust them worth a damn on that basis alone.
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*Side note, I work in a non-technical white collar job, and a surprising number of my colleagues have tattoos.
It might be a generational thing. I personally think (thought) tattoos were very unprofessional, but the younger generation seems to have them -- a lot. One of the kids in the group (he's probably pushing 30) has tats nearly everywhere visible. I'm extremely glad they didn't discriminate against him when it came to hiring. He's change my mind on people with tats.
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Thing is, the tattoo trend is inevitably going to fade away, leaving all these dupes with their bodies covered in "art."
"Like, every single tat has a deep significance to me man. Like this Monster drink logo. That represents my susceptibility to advertisement and that my identity is tied up in what brands are cool or best. It's deep, man, you just don't get it. I'm going to get a yin yang on my forearm because, it's like, deep and I have no idea what cliche or trite means. I'm an individual, man. All
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That's the difference with Apple customers, who don't admit they're getting royally screwed over on price.
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A friend of mine who is Hispanic, as in emigrated from El Salvador, and both degreed and competent in IT almost can't not work.
In fact he works for HP currently.
Bill Cosby (Score:2)
The person that seems to have the most alignment with this message is Bill Cosby.
Sadly, many of the young'ns don't know much about him... Maybe his new show [rollingstone.com] can provide a platform for his message.
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hire unqualified people just because they are black or latino
If minority candidates aren't qualified then the problem is unfairly tough and racially biased requirements. Get your mind right.
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hire unqualified people just because they are black or latino
If minority candidates aren't qualified then the problem is unfairly tough and racially biased requirements. Get your mind right.
More H1Bs on the way - to people who don't have any problem whatsoever with learning to make it in a country thousands of miles from home.
It's a funny old world, isn't it?
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More H1Bs on the way - to people who don't have any problem whatsoever with taking advantage of racist, narcissistic, caste-based hiring practices to gain jobs they're in no way qualified for in a country thousands of miles from home.
FTFY.
Sounds like you are referring to people of one particular country. Dwell on that.
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Hmm... Iranian? Chinese? Slavic? Israeli? Strange, none of them seem to quite meet your description.
Sounds like you are referring to people of one particular country.
Hmm, yes. Yes, it does sound like you have one particular country in mind. Clearly, one of you has a race card in play, but you might want to check the instant replay before you stick your neck
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hire unqualified people just because they are black or latino
If minority candidates aren't qualified then the problem is unfairly tough and racially biased requirements. Get your mind right.
Or minorities aren't following the education or career paths to become qualified even under reasonable requirements. This could be because of cultural bias among the minority group or bias against the minority group in the education system.
I'm not even sure what "unfairly tough and racially biased requirements" means (aside from the obvious "you must be white to apply", which seems... well, unlikely): if some people are qualified (no matter their race), than it doesn't seem to be unfairly tough... unless y
Re:Fuck that guy. (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm not even sure what "unfairly tough and racially biased requirements" means
Unfairly tough and racially biased requirements are whatever is required of or tested for among people that are employed by some segment of the workforce that exhibits an incorrect ratio of racial participation.
For example, since New York fire department minority applicants tended to fail the entrance exam at a higher rate than white applicants the entrance examine is, by definition, racially biased [go.com]. When medical school requirements are found to impede racial quotas the solution is to create separate standards [aamc.org] by race that specify "adjusted" MCAT and GPA figures to correct for systemic bias. The fact that the scores required of black/latino students are significantly lower than those of white/asian students DOES NOT INDICATE A LOWERING OF STANDARDS. Oh no. Rather, the lower score reflect the degree of inherent racial bias in the education system.
Got it?
The IT industry has escaped the good graces of contemporary racial justice for too long, as illustrated by your naivety. We welcome the good Reverend Jackson to the den of racial iniquity that is Silicon Valley and we look forward to the application of racial fairness we know he'll provide, and we're certain you do as well.
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Working as a dev in finance for +10 years, now, diversity is not a problem. Whites may make up a significant portion of development staff (and they also make up over 80% of the population in the US), but they're almost equaled in numbers by Indians. Oriental Asians (as opposed to subcontinent) also make up for significant chunk (I've worked with people from China, Japan, Korea, Cambodia & Vietnam - and those are just the nationalities I know/remember). I've worked with a few blacks, fewer African-Ameri
Re:Fuck that guy. (Score:5, Informative)
so unless Jackson thinks HP should hire unqualified people just because they are black or latino, he should probably focus his efforts earlier in the pipeline
He does.
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Jessie Jackson doesn't care about affirmative action. He's a crook and a con-man. If there's anything that's holding African Americans back in this country (I mean besides racism), it's their seeming indifference to Jessie Jacksons and even worse, Al Sharptons (who should be in prison) complete charlatanry. Both of those men are clearly con men and bad ones at that. I don't think Obama's a very good president but at least there's finally a decent black leader that's also a good roll model. My son is black a
Re:Fuck that guy. (Score:4, Informative)
so unless Jackson thinks HP should hire unqualified people just because they are black or latino, he should probably focus his efforts earlier in the pipeline
I doubt that's what he thinks - he doesn't actually care about black or latino people. He just wants the publicity, and some sort of "fund for underprivileged nerds" to be set up, which he can then "administer" in a way that benefits him and his friends. Shakedown, plain and simple.
Re:Fuck that guy. (Score:5, Insightful)
I agree. If a person is qualified, ill hire him regardless of race. Just because you are black or latino you should not get any special treatment. If we do let unqualified people in, then it perpetuates the problem by highlighting their lack of skill.
Re:Fuck that guy. (Score:4, Insightful)
I agree. If a person is qualified, ill hire him regardless of race. Just because you are black or latino you should not get any special treatment. If we do let unqualified people in, then it perpetuates the problem by highlighting their lack of skill.
Great!
When I graduated from my university, it was almost entirely a blend of american white and asian males in the program. We had 3 white women, 2 black males, and no latinos, in a graduating class of about 70 people. One of the graduation speakers made special point of it in the commencement address when discussing issues in diversity in our field.
When I am in a position to interview people for our engineering jobs, over the past ten years I recall exactly one female applicant with the mandatory degrees and certifications. We see mostly white males, some Asian males (mostly from India and China) and a handful of others. That isn't because we are refusing to interview minorities, it is because those are the people who have the mandatory certifications. I cannot find any solid statistics on the racial distributions of people with engineering certifications, but I'd assume they are similarly skewed.
If he wants to address diversity in our field, he needs to look at those entering the program. If he wants more people in the job, help give them the proper educational background and other certifications required to enter the field.
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"If he wants to address diversity in our field, he needs to look at those entering the program. If he wants more people in the job, help give them the proper educational background and other certifications required to enter the field. "
The affirmative action policies Jackson supports actually reduces the number of blacks who end up with engineering degrees.
Even when black students are interested in STEM careers, affirmative action puts them in a position where their white and Asian classmates are much bette
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When I am in a position to interview people for our engineering jobs, over the past ten years I recall exactly one female applicant with the mandatory degrees and certifications. We see mostly white males, some Asian males (mostly from India and China) and a handful of others. That isn't because we are refusing to interview minorities, it is because those are the people who have the mandatory certifications. I cannot find any solid statistics on the racial distributions of people with engineering certifications, but I'd assume they are similarly skewed.
In 10 years of interviewing for development/testing positions, I have never once seen a resume for a female. Not once. I've seen pretty much every race under the sun (excepting those hiding out in the most inaccessible portions of the earth), and I've given them a fair shake. This is not my fault: I give broad technical requirements to the HR recruiters: knows languages x, y & z (z optional, but a bonus). bonus if they know database a.
I want someone that can do the job. Can they do my job when I'm out
Re:Fuck that guy. (Score:5, Insightful)
I agree. If a person is qualified, ill hire him regardless of race. Just because you are black or latino you should not get any special treatment. If we do let unqualified people in, then it perpetuates the problem by highlighting their lack of skill.
If you do bring in unqualified people, regardless of demographic, you'll find your qualified people frustrated with having to help them all the time and resenting they get paid the same as people who do half the work.
damned if you do... damned if you don't
Re:Stastaticians (Score:2)
Unfortunately, the diversity of the population does not equal diversification in job skills.
This is a repeat of Equal Oppertunity and job quota's from 2 decades ago. In the 70's I had a job with a TS clearance in a technical field and I noted the stark lack of some ethnic groups. I asked my employer about this ethnic bias toward White. He showed me the stack of applications. Minorities very rarely applied or even trained in the high tech trades.
Due to affirmative action in the 80's by t US Goverment, a
Re:Fuck that guy. (Score:4, Insightful)
It isn't a question of guilt. (Score:2)
Seriously, I was sick of his guilt-peddling bullshit decades ago.
It isn't a question of guilt. It is a question of demographics.
In the future the biggest demographic change in the U.S. is the rise of the majority-minority, an odd concept that shows that we still haven't gotten over the ides that white males are the norm and everyone else is a stranger.
To thrive domestically as well as globally, being multicultural is essential.
How Will Changing Demographics in the U.S, Influence Business In the Coming Decade? [wsj.com]
The geek would probably agree that the Republican Party is slowly losing ground as a national force because it is too white, male, inbred and insular. He probably knows that the conflict between the poor and middle class of San Francisco runs deeper than gentrification,
But he refuses to draw any larger conclusions from the evidence which surrounds him.
Re:Fuck that guy. (Score:5, Funny)
PS before the trolls chime in with their 'fuh fuh dur yer a racist fuh fuh" nonsense, I will have you know that I own not one, but three color TVs.
You mean: "TVs of color".
Why are there so few black engineers? (Score:5, Insightful)
Black culture doesn't reward or encourage intelligence.
Re: Why are there so few black engineers? (Score:4, Insightful)
"
To be honest, AMERICAN culture doesn't either. Is why celebrities, athletes, and entertainers are paid dump truck loads of cash while the really intelligent folks ( scientists, reaearchers, you know folks who actually create the world as we know it today ) are compensated at a much lower level.
Given that, if you're growing up in America are you going to strive to be a math whiz or a pro-athlete ? Which gives you the ideal " American " lifestyle ?
Here in the good ol US of A, we glorify a lot of things: War, wealth, and power to name but a few. Intelligence is way, Way, WAY down the list.
In fact, if you're TOO good at say, Math, in school, you become a target and an outcast because you don't fit in with the cool crowd folks now. Your life will become a living hell.
Re: Why are there so few black engineers? (Score:4, Insightful)
Black culture doesn't reward or encourage intelligence.
To be honest, AMERICAN culture doesn't either.
The first statement is racist and the second is incorrect. The correct statement is that "poor and lower-to-middle class culture doesn't reward or encourage intelligence."
I will bet you anything that the exact same premium on intelligence and achievement is shared among white, black and hispanic families in wealthy Orange County CA suburbs; while the same lack of interest is expressed among poor black families in Philadelphia, latino families in East LA and poor white families in Arkansas. I grew up solidly middle class but from my youngest years it was just understood that I *would* go to college, no excuses otherwise. I would like to think that I would have gone to college because of my intelligence and interests no matter what my upbringing ... but who knows?
Sadly, this is a self-perpetuating theme that increases the economic divide in the US over time. I am certainly no fan of affirmative action but the situation does imply that a lack of an initial "hand up" to reach the economic and educational status that will value intelligence is a strong barrier to making that part of the culture. You generally have to get your head above water before you can see that there is land there, and the value of education and upward mobility is usually hidden from those who have never glimpsed it because it's just alien to their experience.
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I can guarantee you that the average and top engineers makes more than the average and top celebrity/athlete/entertainer.
If we assume average to mean league minimum within the NFL then the salaries are...
Rookie : $420,000
1 Yr : $495,000
2 Yr : $570,000
3 Yr : $645,000
4-6 Yr : $730,000
7-9 Yr : $855,000
10+ Yr : $955,000
Whether that beats out the salary of an equivalent experience average engineer I don't know.
Re:Why are there so few black engineers? (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually, black culture penalizes anyone black who allows his/her intelligence to get them ahead. Any child who does so is beaten and bullied by the other black kids, so they learn to hide their abilities and blend in. Some emerge and excell, but sadly, too many are lost to the lifestyle.
As a retired teacher, I have seen this and it is hard to eliminate, and if you try, it is risky.
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Actually, black culture penalizes anyone black who allows his/her intelligence to get them ahead. Any child who does so is beaten and bullied by the other black kids, so they learn to hide their abilities and blend in. Some emerge and excell, but sadly, too many are lost to the lifestyle. As a retired teacher, I have seen this and it is hard to eliminate, and if you try, it is risky.
AC to preserve mods. I really, really don't want to agree with this. It seems like a topic better suited for the 1950's than the 2010's. But, I have seen it happen firsthand at a goddammed university. In grad school, one of the most brilliant people I knew was a blerd, his dad was an engineer and his mom was a nurse, the guy was doing calculus since age 8. I saw him get treated like garbage by his undergrads (he was teaching at the time) because he was a huge black guy who refused to conform to what the
Re:Why are there so few black engineers? (Score:5, Informative)
Actually, black culture penalizes anyone black who allows his/her intelligence to get them ahead. Any child who does so is beaten and bullied by the other black kids, so they learn to hide their abilities and blend in.
As an outwardly Caucasian male* who grew up in the rural backwoods of Missouri and went to school with a 99.9% Caucasian student body, I can assure you that being bullied for showing intelligence is far from being a "black problem."
* Being a solid 1/4 Blackfoot, I prefer to think of myself as a "mud race."
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So that .1% fellow blackfooted persecuted you? Or the white rednecks.
I was referring the the sad fact of black males persecuting other black males who show any ability to study, read etc.
In some areas there is enough teacher presence in halls, yards and stairwells to curtail this bullying in school. Many places have had wages taken so high that there is insufficient teacher presence in halls, yards and stairwells that bullying flourishes in these areas, and this bullying chills many black students into medi
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I think this is part of the problem in Africa, working hard, studying are seen as bad white traits.
You literally have no idea about Africa if you make that kind of statement.
It's a bit anecdotal, but I know several people (about 1/2 of them "white/mixed") who grew up in Kenya, South Africa, and Nigeria. According to them, most people in Africa don't even think about "whites". The biggest problems in Africa today are corruption and war. There are plenty of smart people in most countries there, but they have no access to good schools or jobs. Given the economic situation, many have to work very hard ju
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Yes, I agree. I was too general. The problems I spoke of are country specific, but there are several of them.
A friend of mine was a prof in Zimbabwe, prior to the advent of black corrupt rule. He told me stories and why he eventually became an expat.
That crooked ruler is one whereof I speak.
The breakdown of society by men with guns who want kids to project their power is also a big problem. Those kids get ruined for any normal life, unlimited booze, hookers and drugs while young with a gun tends to do that
Show us. (Score:5, Insightful)
Maybe Jesse should start his own company, hire strictly based on race, and compete.
Tech is full of minorities (Score:5, Insightful)
Just not his minorities, queue the shakedown parade.
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Just not his minorities, queue the shakedown parade.
Exactly. I went to a technical conference for one of my clients. There were a lot of very smart engineers and scientists there. Caucasian males were a decided minority. Most of them were Chinese or Indian, including many women. The Reverend Jesse Jackson needs to direct his white hate somewhere else.
Give old man a break... (Score:5, Funny)
He just wants Jessie Jr to find decent job after he's out of prison...
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His father is already a great role model: Become a preacher, knock up an intern, rinse and repeat.
Education... (Score:4, Insightful)
Seems like this would be an education issue not a hiring issue. e.g. are there really a lot of underemployed / unemployed black or hispanics with CS degrees?
I suspect the tech industry has a high percentage of minorities due to Indians and other Asians ethnicity.
Re:Education... (Score:5, Insightful)
I think it's more of a "Jesse Jackson found yet another way to use black people for his own selfish desires" kinda thing.
Not Our Fault (Score:5, Insightful)
I've been in the tech industry (software, circuit board design, chip design, and then back to software) for 24 years. I've worked with engineers with heritage from India, China, Korea, various eastern European countries, and probably a couple other countries in Asia. I've never had a black or latino co-worker. In all those years, I've only ever seen us interview a single black candidate, and he so inadequate that he got sent home after speaking with a single interviewer.
Hiring is not the problem. A lack of black and latino candidates worth hiring is.
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I have had a few black coworkers. Perfectly competent individuals who were good to work with. Their jobs were also practically guaranteed as they survived multiple waves of layoffs because the department managers like the boost they provide to their diversity numbers.
I would be really interested in seeing the number of unemployed black tech workers with BS degrees or better. I doubt there are many.
Re:Not Our Fault (Score:5, Interesting)
I've worked with talented black IT professionals, but, they were from South Africa, not the USA.
Americans have a "Thug Culture" that makes them stupid in general. It's not a racial thing at all. It's an attitude thing.
Some resist the culture and make something of themselves. In college I met an African-American man who was very sharp - He knew there were programs, more than for any other ethnic group, to help him get a leg up and he was taking advantage of these. He was confounded how few people of his racial group were aware or willing to make the effort. His elevator clearly hit the top floor, smart, motivated and with clear goals in mind - get the engineering degree and move on to a masters. He's probably pulling down the big bucks, wearing a suit and driving his choice of ludicrously expensive car.
Sadly, so many from the neighboring communities were only interested in doing the basic, whatever would get them a slip of paper saying they accomplished something - so could get a better job in a mall or something. No where near as much fire in them to gain knowledge and use it.
To be fair, whenever people try to counter these subcultures they simply become bores and are tuned out. These people need a proper scare put into them - you'll be gardeners for the immigrants who claw their way to a BSE or such. How do you feel about that?
Good. (Score:5, Insightful)
I think everyone should be subjected to this race baiting bullshit as consistently and aggressively as possible.
This is the solution to people like this... they exploit white guilt. And in exploiting it, they use it up.
Look at this very forum... look at all the people saying "f this guy"... exactly. Those are the people that are already tapped out of guilt.
I'm amongst them of course. But not everyone has gotten there yet. Let Al run rampant... Everyone he comes into contact with will be inoculated against his tactics.
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"Let the bigots speak their minds - they're a hell of a lot easier to avoid when you know who they are."
-- This guy
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Are you suggesting I am a bigot or that Al is one? Its not entirely clear and while you might think its self evident, I've had people answer both ways in this context.
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Al.
Calling someone out on their bigotry is not bigotry within itself; stay the course, bruddah.
Does Jeese do as he preaches? (Score:4, Insightful)
So do we know the diversity situation for Jesse's organization? Just curious, as I have no idea what the situation is.
Shakedown machine back in action! (Score:2, Insightful)
Cracker-Jackin Jackson is at it again, let no company fail to donate to the cause lest they be labelled racist and boycotted. Rainbow Push must need more money to pay off another staffer he knocked up.
"healing algorythm" not a dumb quota (Score:5, Interesting)
I dont have a problem with Jesse Jackson...
I **do** have a problem with this reductive, tone-deaf initiative of his...this program won't improve anything.
Just as with the lack of women in tech, the lack of racial diversity is a ***symptom of a greater problem*** and trying to hit some sort of abstract "number" is ridiculous.
The problem goes all the way back to middle school & all the way up through funding for graduate research. We don't know how to **teach technology**...partially because of misperceptions of how the industry works. Steve Jobs as "technology genius" is a perfect example. Jobs was a 'genius' at marketing & dealmaking. He applied innovation to opening new markets & had the vision to see potentials. These are great traits, but have ***nothing to do with actual computing***
The misperceptions influence organizaitonal decisions...which influences academia...which just reinforces the cycle of bad theory/practice.
Diversity is an evolutionary advantage, but it's **two steps** beyond fixing right now...tech's problems are systemic and hitting some artificial quota will not help fix things!!!
First step is to acknowledge we have a problem & start talking about refining + improving how we explain tech to non-techs and students...and integrating those improvements into our systems naturally.
It's sort of a "healing algorythm" that has to go throughout the whole system to optimize.
"tech training programs" are a bandaid (Score:2)
i'm not against the concept at all, but it's got to be at a larger scale in multiple areas
most of our "tech industry heroes" were ***alienated*** from both Academia & Corporate America. it was their alienation from the "tech industry" that drove them to create something that subverted the bad tendencies that caused their alienation.
we can all think of examples of this
my question: how is setting up
Re: "healing algorythm" not a dumb quota (Score:2)
Everyone seems to be focused on the dynamic between employers and employees. But there is another group of people in this equation: The customers.
First scenario: Affirmative action does not exist. You walk in the door, and a minority representative asks if they can help you. When you look at them, you know they must know their business to have earned that position. You know they must be a determined individual to have moved beyond their cultural norms to get there. You think "This person is going to do
should go after outsourcing and H-B1 they are (Score:2)
should go after outsourcing and H-B1 they are the real killers of work.
Color Blind (Score:2)
Stop affirmative action.
Dearth of Applicants (Score:3)
I've worked in tech for 15-20 years now. Since about 2005, I've sat on interview panels.
In all that time, I've interviewed maybe three black people (two of whom ended up getting hired). Same with women. It wasn't that we were intentionally ignoring resumes we thought were from black people or women, we just simply did not ever get them.
I went to college at a school that had a large black student body (although it wouldn't be classified under the "Historically Black College" scheme). Looking at their website, the college is 52% white, 27% black, 10% hispanic white, 3% Asian. However, in my CS101 class (~50 students), it was all white and Asian guys and one white girl (who ended up changing majors).
The high school I went to was roughly 50/50 black/white, but my AP Computer Science class in high school was 100% white. There was actually a pretty good split of girls and boys, though (it was the only "computer" class that offered honors credit, so there was an attraction to people who wanted high class-placement even if they weren't interested in CS).
So yeah. While I don't doubt some corporations are biased in their hiring practices, there also just aren't a lot of black of female applicants, and not a lot of black and/or female CS graduates. I don't know how to address that end of the problem.
Re:Dearth of Applicants (Score:4, Interesting)
It's the same here. I have interviewed a number of qualified women and work with several excellent female engineers but I have never interviewed an African American. I don't care what a person's background is, if they're qualified for the position then they'll be hired. The best candidate I ever interviewed was a transgendered Russian. Everyone who interviewed her recommended her and we made an offer. Sadly she didn't join.
Sadly most candidates I interview are not qualified. When I ask basic questions that anyone with a decent CS or CE degree should be able to answer they fall flat on their face regardless of race and these are for more senior positions.
Oh please (Score:2)
You're kidding me, right? If there is one industry that is by its very nature not racist it's IT. Xenophobia simply doesn't work out if half your coworkers are hailing from abroad. You have all sorts of people working together, the whole thing reeks of favoritism.
Or, in other words, Mr. Jackson trying to play the race card in an attempt to guilt-trip.
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Well, the main reason it's "color-blind" is simply that you often cooperate with people you never met. I've worked together with people for years and don't know to this day what they look like. So I can't even remotely be prejudiced to their "race", I simply don't know and frankly, I don't care. I care about the work they do.
That portions of society are disadvantaged for various reasons is true. No doubt about that. But you can't solve that problem by telling industry to hire people who lack the education,
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Baloney. The color-blindness of the IT industry is related to the hiring practices, which as many people here have pointed out repeatedly, is skewed white because many tech jobs rarely get black candidates. How, in any way shape or form, is that any fault of the IT industry in any way? If Craig's list has a job opening for a startup in San Francisco, and they interview 100 applicants, none of whom are white, are you seriously saying this is due to some cultural bias of the recruiters or interviewers?
Or i
Why does it remind me of this (Score:3)
awesome MADTv sketch?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
umm (Score:2)
Exclusionary zoning (Score:2, Interesting)
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What lack of diversity? Just because it's not diverse in the way he wants it (blacks and Latinos) doesn't mean it's not diverse. It's got plenty of racial diversity -- Indians, Chinese, Koreans, even South Americans and Eastern Europeans.
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That, or the fact that it is very expensive to live there.
And there are black enclaves in Silicon Valley...East Palo Alto has roughly the same amount of black folks as white folks...
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Hey, great idea, Jesse (Score:5, Funny)
But, before hitting Silicon Valley, why not make a stop by the NBA?
I mean, asians and whites are dramatically underrepresented there. I'm sure you see this as a big problem, too.
Right, Jesse?
Um, Jesse?
Re:Hey, great idea, Jesse (Score:4, Funny)
But, before hitting Silicon Valley, why not make a stop by the NBA?
I mean, asians and whites are dramatically underrepresented there. I'm sure you see this as a big problem, too.
Right, Jesse?
Um, Jesse?
Dude - I would pay to have someone ask him that question on national TV, and refuse to cut until he answered it.
That's Not a Spotlight, It's Stupidity (Score:4, Insightful)
This sounds like what my dad was telling me the other day. He used to work for the federal government and they had very detailed lists of minorities in each department. Every department was often under stress to get their numbers to match percentage of populations. But what population do you go by? National? Regional? Many of these departments were more focused on meeting these quotas than hiring the most qualified candidates, so overall these systems are counterproductive.
And if we're so focused on quotas of fairness, should we put a quota that only 13.9% of NFL players should be black? The fact is that Mr. Jackson did a lot of good when qualified black people couldn't find work due directly to discrimination. And while discrimination may not be completely gone, it is a lot better than it used to be and not every case of underrepresentation today is due to discrimination. So keep fighting the good fight against discrimination, but if you're going to complain about underrepresentation and completely fail to show that it is a result of discrimination rather than a lack of interest or qualification, then you can kindly STFU.
has racism been institutionalized? (Score:2)
PBS program last week about struggles of black people from 1960s through today. Near end of program it was mentioned about maybe reason why so many blacks are still living in poverty (inner cities) is because racism has been institutionalized. Also for many white people they don't see blacks except on TV where typically they are seen as sports stars, entertainers, or getting dragged off to jail. There is the President but lately his popularity is not that high. Couple months ago Charlie Bolden, NASA Adminis
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I honestly don't think silicon valley is that racist. They hire tons of chinese and indian people.
Black people tend to be poor. Poor people tend not to have good schools in their neighborhoods. Having a bad education makes you less qualified to do certain jobs. Rather than trying to get people to hire more black people, we should be trying to fix the massive gap in the quality of schools in rich and poor neighborhoods.
Rather than trying to implement quotas, we should be trying to eliminate the need for q
We can all rest now. (Score:2)
Now that Jesse Jackson is on the case, we can all rest knowing that, as long as there is any discrimination, he will never give up trying to exploit it for personal gain.
Are you being accused of being racist? Are you actually racist? It doesn't matter. All you need to do is give Jesse Jackson money, and he will promise not to make your problems worse than they already are.
The only thing stopping diversity... (Score:2)
The only thing stopping more diversity is the lack of candidates with the right skill set. My company has made offers to a wide range of people and we don't care what their background is as long as they have the skills needed. One of the best candidates I interviewed was transgendered and we made her an offer but sadly she didn't join. Everyone who interviewed her recommended her. I have never seen discrimination with any of the tech companies I have worked for. I just have never seen any Latino or Black ca
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Or the NBA. They have the same philosophy as silicon valley ... it's all about results.