IRS Misses XP Deadline, Pays Microsoft Millions For Patches 322
An anonymous reader writes "When Microsoft terminated official support for Windows XP on April 8th, many organizations had taken the six years of warnings to heart and migrated to another operating system. But not the U.S. Internal Revenue Service. Only 52,000 of their 110,000 Windows-powered computers have been upgraded to Windows 7. They'll now be forced to pay Microsoft for Custom Support. How much? Using Microsoft's standard rate of $200 per PC, it'll be $11.6 million for one year. That leaves $18.4 million of their $30 million budget to finish the upgrades themselves, which works out to $317 per computer."
see where your taxes go (Score:5, Insightful)
right into the pocket of microsoft thanks to mismanagement
Re:see where your taxes go (Score:5, Insightful)
Yep. It's a total waste of money.
Those machines aren't going to implode because they don't get updates.
Keep running them, keep on replacing them. Block all external web sites to employees (which they should be anyway).
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Yeah, because it's totally inconceivable that an employee might need access to information that's not stored on the internal network.
Re:see where your taxes go (Score:4, Insightful)
So disconnect those XP boxes from any external access. Any information they need for their job can come from internal sites only, or they have special computers they can visit for the strange reason of needing to check the internet (this should be extremely rare). If they need to access the internet too much, then they put in a request for a better computer (this should be a tiny fraction of the staff). Remember, we've gone millenia without the internet.
Cavity searches for the IRS (Score:3)
Re:see where your taxes go (Score:5, Insightful)
But the IRS doesn't care. It just asks for more money from Congress to go after more citizens for more money. The IRS doesn't care about how inefficient it is. That is inherently what is wrong with a massively complex government system which is specifically designed to be complex.
There are solutions for this, but it means dismantling the IRS and firing a lot of people, so how do you think we are going to do this. Similar to the quasi-governmental Post Office.
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Re:see where your taxes go (Score:4, Interesting)
Nice fairy tale. The IRS had their budget cut and the chances of being audited is the lowest it has been in years, http://www.huffingtonpost.com/... [huffingtonpost.com].
Now, you probably think this is a good thing, except that the sainted American people will do anything to cheat on their taxes. Whether you like it or not, much of higher and lower education rely on taxes, as does most fundamental research. But Congress has been cutting that as well because research grows on trees, right.
And the problem isn't with the IRS, it is with the tax code. Congresses and Presidents have written that. The last simplification happened because Tip O'Neill and Ronald Reagan agreed to simplify it and rammed it through Congress, although it took them several years. The current crop of congresscritters cannot agree on where the sun rises, good luck in simplification.
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Yep. It's a total waste of money.
Those machines aren't going to implode because they don't get updates.
Keep running them, keep on replacing them. Block all external web sites to employees (which they should be anyway).
Do you really want your personal information on a vulnerable system where a Russian hacker can make a killing selling your identity? Do you still back that up in such a case?
Re:see where your taxes go (Score:4, Insightful)
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Yeah confidential data is never compromised in the private sector because companies are careful not to use XP, except Target. That includes Experian. Or Adobe. Or Sony. Or Apple. (etc.)
Re:see where your taxes go (Score:5, Funny)
Re:see where your taxes go (Score:5, Funny)
Sure it's not going to be called Red Tape Linux?
Re:see where your taxes go (Score:4, Funny)
'cause it's not Year of the LIRSux Desktop
You got me there, I spent 5 minutes trying to research the word LIRSUX. Then it hit me! You must be referring to LIR6. Which is a fairly confusing, yet true statement. A leukocyte immunoglobulin-like receptor 6 desktop doesn't exist yet. I'm not sure why anyone would want to base a interface on a chemical, but I'm sure with enough work and determination, you will achieve this goal.
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The sensible thing, of course, would be to run Linux, so in the event of another amazing display of incompetence like that (which is probably already in the pipeline), they could support an older version in-house for a tiny, tiny fraction of that cost.
This is the Federal Government we're talking about. Not only is "sensible" a negative thing, but the costs of internal maintenance of any IT project would most likely be multiples of just paying someone else for a proprietary solution. Consider the IRS is "only" paying $12 million for a year's support for its computers; doing that in-house would undoubtedly cost 4-5 times that amount and result in slower service as all requests need to be filed in triplicate with 3 different agencies, and cross-referenced
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Judging by news about a similar failure to timely update by Dutch government branches MS will have included a little gem in this contract, you get it so 'cheap' because a forced upgrade to Win7/8 is part of the deal.
They (MS) won't allow you to cancel the contracts and go with a non-lock in provider.
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Virtually no computer than came installed with Windows XP can be upgraded to Windows 8 because Windows 8 has additional hardware requirements.
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Vista is still supported by security and bug fix patches until sometime in 2017, so to say it was not supported as long as XP is simply false.
Paid for with the public's money (Score:5, Insightful)
Shouldn't that result in the patches being released for anyone to use?
AHAHAHAHA, sorry. Had to make the joke.
Windows XP did not instantly become unsafe April 8 (Score:5, Informative)
Governments and big corporations are often influenced by people with no technical knowledge. Because of their ignorance, governments have already paid Microsoft probably more than it costs to fix the few security defects found each year. However, the taxpayers of those governments will not be allowed to have the fixes. "End of life" is a way for Microsoft to make more money.
It's like Toyota told all owners of older Toyota vehicles that the vehicles are unsafe now and owners must buy new vehicles or pay millions of dollars to keep them. Except its worse: Software doesn't have mechanical wear.
This article contains tips about how to use any version of Microsoft Windows safely that can be shared with people you want to help. Unnecessary computer maintenance is an ugly way to make money.
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It's like Toyota told all owners of older Toyota vehicles that the vehicles are unsafe now and owners must buy new vehicles or pay millions of dollars to keep them. Except its worse: Software doesn't have mechanical wear. [futurepower.net]
A better analogy would be for Toyota to stop manufacturing parts for very old cars, and most car manufacturers do just that. Aftermarket is more able to fill the void in that case, but it's the same concept. And let's be real, $200 scaled up to a car would be thousands, not millions. Software doesn't have "mechanical" wear, but it has ongoing discovery of security vulnerabilities that require maintenance from the vendor. Delivering that maintenance costs money.
Even the newest systems that shipped with XP ar
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Such vulnerabilities can also be introduced by "maintenance". Also they can't be easily related to some metric of usage or time, unlike mechanical "wear".
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True on both points. However, It doesn't change the fact that software still "ages" in a way, and that software that works acceptably at one point in time may become unsafe to continue using at a later date. GP seems to think that the intangible nature of software means that its utility can't diminish over time.
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Software never ages. It can run forever.
However, yes updates do come into play depending on use. Citigroup has a 45 year old mainframe app to do its processing. There is no need to upgrade and the punchcards will lost many decades ago so it can never be updated.
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Let me flip this?
What can you do on a nice shiny new i5core Dell box that your XP system can not?
Can you type faster? Can you think faster? Do webpages load up faster? Do pie charts in excel pop up quicker?
Where are the productivity enhancements to pay for this investment?? ... I am waiting. That's right there is none. So it is not an asset. It is a cost center and an expense. This is why XP is still around.
It works and the cost is already set. Instead of blowing millions like my employer is upgrading how a
Re:Windows XP did not instantly become unsafe Apri (Score:5, Informative)
All software has defects, it's the nature of the beast. If vendors were liable for every last bug in their software, the commercial software industry would not exist. (I'm sure there are freetards who feel that would be a good thing, but let's not go there.)
It's not like Microsoft deliberately released XP with 2,722 flaws with the intent to fix them gradually over the next ~12.5 years. That's the problem with security vulnerabilities- they need to be discovered. Odds are, there are plenty more in Windows XP that have yet to be found. XP EOL isn't going to make your XP machine explode and kill your family. Before long, though, unpatched XP systems will be rife with exposed vulerabilities. Browser updates will drop support for XP. It will become unsafe to use any XP machine in any capacity that involves internet connectivity. Advising your clients to continue using XP is irresponsible at best.
Really, since you're so convinced that MS is outright evil, I'm surprised you're not trying to push some linux-based XP replacement. Though, for what it's worth, even free operating systems often have an end of support life, absent any profit motive.
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Please
Yes I was for people keeping XP too if there was no reason to upgrade.
However software does need updating. Look at the openssl heartbeat bug? Linux and apache have many that Slashdot mysteriously never report and lazy unix admins never upgrade which are constantly hacked! Java has issues. .NET has issues. Windows has issues. Solaris has issues. Nuclear reactor software written in freaking cobol for Digital's pre-VMS OS is still being updated today and run on PDP-11's in Europe.
Sometimes things change
I agree: If it works, nothing more is necessary. (Score:2)
You said this, and I agree: "Nuclear reactor software written in freaking cobol for Digital's pre-VMS OS is still being updated today and run on PDP-11's in Europe."
There is no reason for hundreds of millions of customers of Microsoft Windows XP to buy new hardware. If XP is working for them, good, nothing new is necessary.
If the U.S. government pays for Microsoft to fix the defects in its software, then the taxpayers must be given those fixes wit
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Correction, it wasn't ignorance that caused Governments and other organisations to end up running late on project with a fixed delivery date at least five years in advance.
It was incompetence.
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Windows XP did not instantly become unsafe on April 8, 2014, the date Microsoft calls the "end of life" for Windows XP.
No, it has been unsafe for at least a few years already. Windows XP does not support any encryption that's still considered secure.
Microsoft encryption has been EXTREMELY buggy. (Score:2)
Not only is it not secure, it has been EXTREMELY buggy. People have lost their files to Microsoft's encryption bugs. Also, the U.S. government believes it can force executives to do anything it says, and keep that secret from taxpayers.
It is best to use only GPG [gnupg.org] and TrueCrypt [truecrypt.org] for encryption, or other open source software. Open source software is much more difficult to manipulate.
Taxpayers now will now pay support + Microsoft. (Score:2)
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Do you have any idea how many security patches have been issued since the release of Linux Kernel 2.4? Because 2.4 came out right about when XP did.
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Plenty of places have laws that require goods to be of "reasonable quality".
In the case of a manufacturing defect these can be applicable for considerably longer than 3 years. (Possibly with seller, rather than maker, having to pay.)
A problem with software is t
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Yes, GM does... for 10 years generally...
Also keep in mind that GM will pay for SAFETY DEFECTS, not just ANY defects...
That is an important point, no one is going to die because Windows XP Home stops working (and no, you can't use it for your nuclear power station, the EULA specifically forbids its use in any critical situations like that) Windows XP Embedded is for that and has different licencing.
Windows XP is 13 years old this year, I think the timeframe they are required to provide updates has passed,
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That's what we are discussing, the defects in Windows XP that cause safety vulnerabilities.
I said this in my article [futurepower.net]: When Windows XP was first released, it was extremely sloppy. It seems to me that it is reasonable to say that Service Pack 3 for Windows XP finally made the OS a somewhat finished product. Service Pack 3 of Windows XP was released on May 6, 2008. By that measure, Windows XP is 6 years old.
Audit time (Score:5, Funny)
So the IRS missed a deadline they knew was coming... I wonder what they would do to any of us in a similar but different situation?
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So the IRS missed a deadline they knew was coming... I wonder what they would do to any of us in a similar but different situation?
he IRS isn't the only SNAFU out there by any stretch of the imagination. They are in good company along with many members of the much vaunted and ever efficient private sector when it comes to missing this particular deadline.
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Indeed. The IRS has its priorities.
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Get an account, takes about a minute. Use a fake name if you would like.
The goal is providing service (Score:2, Insightful)
I work at a large public organization that runs multiple large hospitals and a throng of clinics. We have not completed the XP -> 7 transition in time and are paying Microsoft for this extended support. Upgrading tens of thousands of systems with a myriad of specialized software isn't as easy as upgrading your home computer.
We must wait for vendors to upgrade their applications, ensure the updates work, and train users; this delayed us deploying new systems. Since medical applications aren't sexy nor che
Sounds like Microsoft is making a pretty penny. (Score:5, Insightful)
Every corporation and agency is independently paying millions and millions to have them continue to patch their computers. I would not wager a guess at how much it costs to continue producing patches, but I cannot imagine it is more than a handful of full time devs.
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I think the parent was referring to the IRS paying to make ReactOS a replacement for Windows and not Microsoft doing it.
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You appear to have overlooked a testing team in your planning! The regression testing on the various h/w, s/w and language variants won't be small either.
Unfortunately on large scale projects, it's not good enough to fix the bug, check if it seem
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And you would expect hundreds of QA engineers to be employed for this task? (lets not forget they already have everything in place to continue patching and testing)
At this point (Score:2)
What does it matter?
Done on purpose (Score:2)
It's cheaper for the IRS to pay the dime to continue to make patches so that they will be available to countless others who are caught with their pants down, costing far more in the economy and thus ultimately reducing revenue headed to the IRS.
They might actually make a profit off from doing this.
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It's cheaper for the IRS to pay the dime to continue to make patches so that they will be available to countless others who are caught with their pants down, [...]
What makes you think these patches will be made available for these countless others? Microsoft will bill very single entity out there for the very same patches, that's quite certain.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
XP limited users cannot install software. (Score:2)
I have never seen an XP limited user be able to install software. The problem is that the default user has administrator privileges, as I explain [futurepower.net] in the section One of Microsoft's methods of making money: Provide safety methods only professionals are likely to know. I regard that as intentional abuse by Microsoft.
Re:About XP . . . (Score:5, Insightful)
Windows XP is the best Win OS ever made.
It works. It has the best gui. Windows explorer isn't crippled. Apps just work. Websites render just right. Updates do not break it unlike 7 or 8. It works well with 512 megs of ram.
If it aint broke DON"T FIX IT!
The reason they like XP is they had win98 and WinME and remember the crapola experiences, crashes, re-installing the OS, etc. XP was the first OS which just worked. Why change?
People become conservative as a result. Our grandparents who grew up during World War II and the Great depression became conservative and AMERICA IS GREAT during the 1950's when good times hit. Same is true with XP. It came from an era of bad apples preceeding it. Now look at Windows 8 and Vista which came later?
Can you blame them of being afraid of change?
XP works just fine and they do not want a cell phone os and risk nightmares of getting things to work and performance problems. It finally works so leave it and they need a reason to change. There is no reason to change what works right?
I am in the wrong godamn business! (Score:2)
How many hospitals aren't HIPAA compliant? (Score:2)
Oh boy, a deluge of misrepresentation (Score:3)
From the assumption that IRS will pay standard joe off the street rate to Microsoft, to impossibility of running XP without support, not much in this article passes the muster of common sense. Chrome and Thunderbird are still well supported and secure, and that's all IRS employees should need in terms of accessing Internet. Everything else would be in-house applications which can be secured on server side, so it should be Ok even if they still have run IE6.
As for employees that don't follow instructions, there is nothing to keep them from installing freepr0n.exe on Win7.
Funding (Score:3)
So how could the IRS fund their Microsoft Custom Support? By seizing tax refunds. [hotair.com]
Bad math and assumptions (Score:5, Insightful)
Fantasyland (Score:5, Insightful)
If the IRS does decide to pay Microsoft for continued support of XP, the chances of it paying the standard $200 per PC rate is effectively zero.
The numbers in the summary are total fantasy.
Anybody wish to wager with me (Score:2)
It makes perfect sense (Score:5, Informative)
Hypothetical situation. I am an IT director. I track trillions in revenues and hundreds of billions in taxes. Do I 1)
switch to a new system with unknown security risks and associated costs in upgrading in house systems and applications?
or
2) Do I stick with a true and tried system for a few tens of millions more?
No brainer. Stick with the devil you know. This is not some happy little mobile app like the "Annoyed Nematode" you are dealing with the financial futures of both the US government and each and every person who must file taxes.
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"...switch to a new system with unknown security risks..."
Yeah, that Windows 7 has only been out since 2009 and practically nobody uses it.
Guess who's due for an audit! (Score:2)
Purely chosen randomly, of course.
XP as bad IT test (Score:5, Interesting)
What I have seen before is that some minor OS upgrade comes along and the various parties say, "Hey we need a minor upgrade to our software to keep up." this is then refused so after the next OS update they say, "He we pretty desperately need a medium sized upgrade to catch up." this is refused. This goes on and on until basically they are screaming, "We MUST upgrade now and the upgrade is a major overhaul of how everything works." then the worst thing in the world happens, they agree. The problem being that some sleazy mega-sized consulting company comes in and starts throwing around "best-practices" and $50 million later a completely useless system that is actually far worse than the 12 year old pile of crap they have is born. Then another $50 million is spent getting it to barely work.
The probable cost to have had a continuous stream of upgrades in the first place? Maybe $500,000 per year.
IRS...late? (Score:2)
Microsoft should charge them triple, and propose confiscating all assets for such a mistake. After all, that's what the IRS would do.
Windows 7 will no longer be sold at end of 2014. (Score:2)
By the end of the year, Microsoft will have already stopped selling Windows 7. [futurepower.net]
Microsoft: Windows 7 is already out of date. (Score:2)
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"Out of date" is meaningess marketing blather. "End of life/support" is what counts, and for that, Windows 7 falls out of extended support in January 2020, nearly six years from now.
Yes, but don't you agree there is abuse? (Score:2)
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If you buy a product, find out the EOL date. If it is too soon for your liking, don't buy it.
U.S. taxpayers pay, but don't get the fixes? (Score:2)
U.S. taxpayers should pay Microsoft to make fixes for the U.S. government, but not get those fixes themselves?
We must recognize and counteract abuse.
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Find me another OS vendor that provides support for longer than 13 years. RedHat JUST started doing it; Apple is 1/3 that long.
If "industry leading product support timeline" counts as abusive in your book, then I guess Im not clear what you mean by abusive.
Old versions of Linux were stable and finished. (Score:2)
When Windows XP was first released, it was extremely sloppy. It seems to me that it is reasonable to say that Service Pack 3 for Windows XP finally made the OS a somewhat finished product. Service Pack 3 of Windows XP was released on May 6, 2008. By that measure, Windows XP is 6 years old.
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As much as I am a proponent of it aint broke do not fix it I have to bring up the costs it takes for Microsoft to man up a support command and control center, os kernel hackers, teams of security experts, and developers who know ancient code bases to keep the updates going year after year after year.
This aint free.
Ms should charge something for support and if only a slim number are willing to pay for it the associated costs is going to be high. If they charge $30 a pc (example) the neophytes and Grandma wou
Taxpayers pay. They should get the fixes. (Score:3)
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Well things cost money. Yes we pay for them. That is life as you would be pissed of one person paid you for something and I took it for free and gave your work away to others right?
That amount wont cover the cost for a whole year. It is the combined total.
A widely fixed OS is more secure than an new OS? (Score:2)
Several governments are paying, not just the U.S. government. I give links in my article. [futurepower.net]
Others have said, and I agree, the amount the U.S. government is paying should be far more than enough to provide fixes for the few vulnerabilities that are found in the next year.
Remember, there have already been 2,722 fixes in Windows XP. It seems that eventually, no matter how sloppy the coding was in the beginning, Windows XP will have very few additional v
Re:Yes, but don't you agree there is abuse? (Score:5, Insightful)
Thats how RHEL does it-- RHEL 5 (released in 2007) goes out of support in 2020. Apple doesnt provide support nearly that long for OSX-- they EOL'd Snow Leopard (2009) in 2013, so they have approximately 1/3 the product lifespan that MS or RH does.
Based on your other comments, though, you really just have a personal axe to grind against anything Microsoft for no real (that I can discern) reason.
Microsoft has a virtual monopoly. Linux, no. (Score:2)
That is VERY different from the situation with Microsoft. Microsoft has a virtual monopoly. There is no monopoly involving Linux.
I wonder why it is so difficult for people to recognize and deal with abuse.
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Youre using the term obsolete ambiguously. What exactly do you mean? Linux 2.4 and RHEL 3 are both very much "obsolete".
Old versions of Linux: Still stable and safe. (Score:2)
The reason the U.S. government is paying Microsoft to continue to fix defects in Windows XP is that somehow people have come to accept that Microsoft products will always have vulnerabilities.
It is my understanding that the "obsolete" version of Linux are still working very, very well, with few vulnerabilities, almost all of which could be fixed without changing versions, and all of which could be fixed without payment.
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Five years and 9 months from now, Windows 7 users should pay more? Again?
If you expect them to keep servicing it then of course you should pay, and if you don't understand why then I'm assuming you have never been tasked with maintaining an active source tree in a commercial setting.
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Well, they call Win7 an out of date product, but Win8 was one from the beginning. What now?
Re:Avoided, Not Missed (Score:5, Insightful)
XP Works. Vista, 7, and 8 really don't
Wow, this has got to be one of the most opinionated and/or misinformed things I've read in quite a while. XP was the last consumer Windows that was more or less designed for the "isn't everybody an admin?" mindset. Part of Vista's bad reputation was due to it being the messenger that got shot while delivering the "hey guys, the party's over. We really need to stop assuming every user can write to system locations. This time for real." message to developers and users. Naturally the ultra-paranoid UAC settings didn't help with that. In 7 and 8 the new security model was fine-tuned to actually work instead of bombarding users with multiple confirmations for the same operation and as a result the modern versions of Windows are reasonably secure, especially when compared to the security nightmare that XP was prior to SP2.
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You mean install the really good edition? [deanliou.com]
There is even a flash demo if you want to check it out. Just don't use that combo they made a few years ago which took what they thought was the best parts of Windows CE, Windows ME and Windows NT and created Windows CEMeNT (as hard as a rock and dumber than a brick).
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If we're making fun of 14 year old operating systems, is it OK if I start on about how screwed up Linux 2.2 and OSX 10.1 are?
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If your funny bone is that screwed up, sure. But this story is about using an old outdated operating system still being used and having to pay extra for support because it is so old. So please relax before your panties get knotted so tight you have to buy new ones. It's just a joke- a joke about windows the good versions.
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5 PCs is no kind of "enterprise" setup. There's also no way to directly upgrade from XP to 7. The only way is a reinstall then finding out which applications still work with 7. Worst case senario being applications which install without any obvious issues, start up apparently
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If they prematurely (i.e. before they said they were going to) EOL their products, yet continue to have any meaningful funds, a lawsuit would almost certainly follow. Not a great way to make money.
Re:Wow! If this is the way things work (Score:4, Insightful)
Presumably you won't be boarding a bus, train or commercial flight then
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There isn't really a viable alternative is why.
Sure linux and OSS is great on your home computer or web-server but it doesn't have the applications like windows does. Sometimes there are comparable applications available but for the most part, off the shelf programs with support is what is needed for most all government agencies larger then a city government.
I'm not saying that cannot change, open software can become just as polished and available but until it does or until the windows software has cross p
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Several governments around the world have moved to free software, or are in the process of doing so. If they think free software is viable...
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I have not heard of any that have completely moved off though. I know a couple are trying and failing at the moment.
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Even if in a particular application the total cost of using the proprietary software is lower because it makes workers more productive? Remember that the cost of the person using a computer is far higher than the cost of the computer and software installed on it. A full time person costs ~$100K. A 10% efficiency change dwarfs most software costs.
To what power is. (Score:2)
Hoho! I can see it before me. The tech guys entering the meeting, thinking they're so clever. And one of the managers saying that. And a short pause and then the techies going "Eh, what? But... But... That's not right. That's not even wrong. Your words does not... mean... anything..."
And on that day, the tech guys were enlightened.
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Did you have a real business reason for wanting linux, or are you just pushing an agenda for ideological reasons?
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Theyre doing what everyone else does with EOL'd products. The only reason this is newsworthy is because the submitter knows that slashdot loves to harp on microsoft on anything, real or imaginary.