Is Bamboo the Next Carbon Fibre? 198
An anonymous reader writes with this excerpt from the BBC about one very cool building material: "Real carbon fibre, mind, is still just as wondrous as it was in the last century, even if a bit more commonplace in road cars. But it's still very expensive to make in large pieces and quantities, it requires copious energy to manufacture, can be very brittle if made poorly, is not recyclable and can impose a detrimental impact of the environment when being produced. In other words, it is ripe for disruption. Technology stands still for no one. But could nature provide carbon fibre's replacement? So argues Gary Young, a renowned manufacturer of surfboards who has spent his life pioneering alternative materials use for that industry. 'With the right approach, bamboo can be used in many applications in the automotive world where its performance qualities can better carbon fibre's,' Young says. 'Plus, it does not have a negative effect on the environment.''"
bamboo car (Score:5, Interesting)
i can see it now. cars made out of bamboo instead of plastic and metal. http://www.cartell.ie/car_chec... [cartell.ie]
Re:bamboo car (Score:4, Interesting)
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What about splinters? I can imagine those are nasty in a crash, so how is that minimized?
Re:bamboo car (Score:4, Insightful)
It can be hard to guarantee the homogeneity and consistency in wood that auto manufacturers are used to having in their raw materials. A manufacturer can specify and source sheet steel for a car body, and be reasonably confident that the material properties will vary by, at most, 5% from lot to lot. Wood is much more highly variable, meaning that you need to build a larger margin of safety into the design.
I'm not saying this prevents wood and other natural materials from being used in automobiles, it just requires different design and manufacturing processes.
Re:bamboo car (Score:4, Insightful)
It's not just "a stigma," there are many real problems with using wood in cars. It needs coatings to prevent it from absorbing water and rotting, which it will still happily do as soon as that coating is breached. It's an equal-opportunity absorber which will pick up other smelly and flammable chemicals from the car just as well - when using woods and fabrics you always have to be careful to avoid setting up something that could become a torch waiting for an ignition source. On that topic, without special treatments it will burn quite nicely. Without other treatments- or again if the treatment is compromised, it will biodegrade at a speed which will become a problem within the lifetime of the car. And finally as a material there is almost nowhere you could use wood where a metal, plastic or modern composite wouldn't do a much better job.
So remind me again why the hell you'd want to use this stuff in a car? Even when I see racers building underbody aero parts from wood it makes me cringe...
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This has been done before [pinimg.com].
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Re:bamboo car (Score:5, Funny)
The Indian truck manufactuer Tata has been using wood as a construction material for quite some time now.
Other materials used include chewing gum, rubber bands, old newspapers, and spit.
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When did MacGyver move to India?!
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I remember well when Honda was the butt of similar jokes in the Late 70's and/or early 80s. Nobody makes these jokes anymore.
Most times, market disruptions occur when previously expensive or inaccessible technology is provided at low cost. Sometimes, this happens when a high-end provider streamlines their processes and deliver their wares at new, lower cost. Far more often, however, it happens when a profitable, low-end provider moves upscale and discovers that they can deliver higher end wares at lower cos
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Negative Effects... (Score:5, Interesting)
Well, that depends on a few things?
1. What you plant.
2. Where you plant it.
3. Who your neighbors are, and your current relationship with them.
Plant the wrong kind, or plant it without a 3' deep root barrier, and you will quickly have a neighborhood war on your hands. Expand this to commercial levels of production, and you could make a lot of people very angry with you.
One thing is certain, though? Once you plant it, it is THERE for 15 years, at the very least. And you'll be exceptionally busy for every bit of those 15 years.
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well like other "negative impact" stuff like that the usual course of business would be just cut a piece of jungle and plant it there.
that being said, bamboo is already used and cultivated for lots of stuff.. however, I would imagine negative impact from either carbon fibre or bamboo fibre would come from the binder resins and not the actual fibre so much.....
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"Just cut a piece of jungle and plant it there" is an example of how to create an environmental disaster.
Many types of bamboo are incredibly resilient and incredibly invasive. Start planting it in very fertile soil - such as, say, a jungle - and in a couple of decades, there'll be a mile or so radius around your plantation where the native undergrowth has been pretty much completely supplanted by bamboo. In a couple of generations, the whole ecosystem will be FUBAR.
Cultivate it properly, put in a solid (and
Re:Negative Effects... (Score:4, Insightful)
That looks sensationalist. Why then earth is not covered with bamboo?
It think it depends on the species of bamboo, and the species they're competing against.
I frequently visit a place with tropical forest near Rio since 1992, and there are some bamboo here and there, some of different species, and they stay pretty much the same size. They will only spread around if you make room for it by cutting nearby trees.
There is a smaller species that do spread around quickly, but still can't penetrate the established forest.
Re:Negative Effects... (Score:5, Informative)
Bamboo, the spreading kind like yellow groove, starts to spread three years after planting. It never stops! Bamboo is a long lived plant, around 99 years. We have cut all our culms (stalks) and now the plant has reverted to a grass-like growth habit. But, no doubt, if it is not constantly mowed, it will revert to its normal habits, reaching up to 35 feet in height. Underground, about five inches, it is one interconnected mass. It spreads via rhizomes about five feet a year or more, in all directions. My advice is to plant the clumping types, far easier to manage. It is a beautiful plant.
or... (Score:2)
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In fact, you know what's usually around the carbon fiber layers in cars?
If the "carbon" is visible it's quite possibly just glass or aramid fiber died black before the resin is added, though I think fake carbon fiber is less prevalent now than it used to be.
Or you'd read up about composite materials first.. (Score:2)
Carbon, kevlar, fiberglass and other fiber materials are used for tensile strength but as fibers, aren't much use by themselves in cars. The trick is to make composites with a weave or other pattern with the fibers and use a resin/epoxy to give structural strength to the fibers.
Glass fiber has some nasty properties compared to carbon and kevlar when used in such a composite. It's heavier in application, it tends to draw in water once the fibers are exposed to the open air and it breaks easier than especial
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Re:or... (Score:4, Informative)
Lets not forget directional strength based on the weaves used. This has ALWAYS been and still is a distinguishing factor between (long) fiber based composites and their homogeneous counterparts.
A good designer can take this into account to a make a part that is stronger, cheaper and lighter.
A poor designer can add "Carbon Fiber Roof" to the list of specifications and increase the price.
Bamboo Bicycle (Score:5, Interesting)
Bamboo is already making its way into bicycle frame design.
http://calfeedesign.com/products/bamboo/ [calfeedesign.com]
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I've seen bamboo used in China for scaffolding in the construction of steel and concrete buildings 20+ storeys tall.
Re:Bamboo Bicycle (Score:5, Informative)
I've seen bamboo used in China for scaffolding in the construction of steel and concrete buildings 20+ storeys tall.
Bamboo is safer than steel for scaffolding. It you fall into a bamboo scaffold, it will flex, absorbing much of the impact energy. When steel scaffolding was first used in China, there were several fatalities that would not have happened with bamboo. So the construction workers refused to return to work until the steel was taken down and replaced with bamboo.
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Bamboo is safer than steel for scaffolding.
Perceived as safer by the group of workers familiar with its use, but actually no.
According to HK accident statistics, the real probability of a fatal fall from a bamboo scaffold is close to double that of metal scaffolds.
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According to HK accident statistics, the real probability of a fatal fall from a bamboo scaffold is close to double that of metal scaffolds.
A Google search brings up nothing that backs up this assertion. This article [scmp.com] says that only 3 of 24 annual fatal construction accidents in Hong Kong involved a fall from bamboo scaffolding. Can you provide a link to these "HK accident statistics"?
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Can you provide a link to these "HK accident statistics"?
I remembered the statistic from presentation at a trade conference, and don't have a direct reference.
Googling "fatal fall from a bamboo scaffold" brings up the most relevant links, and FANG1 titled link closest to my memory of the presentation,
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Have you been to Hong Kong?
The accidents that occur on bamboo scaffold in HK are nothing to do with its inherent safety.
Almost all scaffold in HK is bamboo, even up to 40 storeys. And the HK scaffolders who put it up are, to put it mildly, quite reckless. In fact, recklessness (fearlessness) is almost seen as a positive attribute by HK scaffolders.
The steel scaffolds are usually put up by foreign building firms who use lanyards and other correct safety equipment and procedures.
Re:Bamboo Bicycle (Score:5, Interesting)
Having seen the bamboo scaffolding in both Hong Kong and China first-hand, the bigger issue (from my point of view) is not the energy absorption, but rather the assembly / erection. Unlike steel scaffolding the has a defined assembly, bamboo tends to be assembled by lashing together the various bits with inconsistent amounts of rope, twine or those plastic packing strips.
The problem here is that you are at the mercy (moreso) of he who assembled the scaffolding. If they were cheap or in a hurry things may fall apart. I was in Hong Kong during a severe wind storm around 5 years ago. It was bad enough that on the news they were advising ALL residents of all of Hong Kong to stay inside unless urgent.
Several sets of scaffolding fell down during that storm.
Re:Bamboo Bicycle (Score:4, Interesting)
I used it for some awesomely light bow limbs [waywardgeek.net] for their energy storage.
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True, and they are far superior in terms of making the best use of the bamboo fibers. For example, they can steam flatten the crown so that the fibers on the outermost part of the crown (which are far denser than in the interior) are not over-stressed, and the load can be shared by more of the outer fibers. I didn't do that, and the efficiency of my bow is far less than is possible with such technology. However, even the yumi bows fail to make use of beneficial lamination stresses. I got higher energy d
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Making it's way? Historically was used in bicycles, I have pics from a bicycle museum along the Rhine River with bamboo framed bikes. Looking at a pic now, even the rim was wood (or at least matching color).
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Off the hook prices as well...
Recycleable? (Score:5, Interesting)
Carbon fiber itself is just as recycleable as bamboo fiber. However bamboo, once combined with epoxy, it's just as unrecycleable and toxic as carbon fiber. I've got several ASUS bamboo laptops, where bamboo was used instead of plastic for a portion of the case. It was marketed as better for the environment, but to me it was just more esthetically pleasing than plastic. The bamboo components held up better than the hinges and the electronics.
Re:Recycleable? (Score:5, Informative)
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And the epoxy used to bond the bamboo weave?
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And the epoxy used to bond the bamboo weave?
Can in fact be made from plant sources (e.g. sugar -> sugar alcohol -> artificial resin). No doubt early versions of the process won't yield much, if any reduction in environmental impact, but at least in principle the process could be made sustainable.
I wouldn't be surprised if plant based epoxies started in appearing soon in eco-chic products along with bamboo. I mean, hemp-and-bamboo composite -- among a certain crowd that would sell like hotcakes.
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You can make carbon fiber from bamboo too.
Re:Recycleable? (Score:5, Interesting)
Alright, I've been working in the materials industries for years, so I can see there is a lot of strange info here.
There are many ways to use composites, of every type. In some cases not having to replace the product may be more environmentally sound than making it out of something semi-biodegradable like bamboo and epoxy. I'm just saying, that there are ups and downs to everything. It takes years and much useage to define the criteria, for environmentally sound, with any product. Wasn't to long ago I remember ethonal and biodesel were going to save the planet, and now we realize it's really not much better after all.
From the UK Readers (Score:2)
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That depends on where "over here" is. They are viewable in my part of the USA.
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without a proxy/VPN.
You don't have to go to that extreme with any BBC property. Just use a header-spoofer addon with your browser. The BBC doesn't go out of its way to detect such methods. I use Modify Header for Firefox, but there's a bunch of others (some of which are stupidly easy to use.) I'm in Australia and this allows me to read/watch BBC's UK-only content. (And a fair bit of blocked US-only content.)
[That said, it's weird that the BBC would block news articles for UK readers.]
Clothing (Score:2)
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If you felt the product's price was excessive compared to the value delivered, why did you buy the product?
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(*) They typically are, but "cheaper" on the branded stuff *they* sell still isn't that cheap, the
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Sometimes you have to give it a try before you determine if it delivers a good enough value.
Remember just because something isn't worth its price doesn't mean that the price is prohibitive.
Example: a local place might start serving a $30 hamburger (and I'm sure some places do have burgers higher than that). $30 is a lot for a hamburger, but in and of itself it's not really that much money. I might be willing to try one and see how it is. Afterwards I might decide that it really wasn't worth the price. T
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I have a couple of bamboo shirts. They're pretty much similar to a cotton/rayon blend (and they were no more expensive than such).
Bamboo Rayon socks are awesome (Score:5, Interesting)
My feet would always be cold and clammy after a day at work. Tried a bunch of different sock types... cotton, wool, Merino wool, synthetics, etc. Nothing helped.
Then I tried Rayon from Bamboo socks (these guys [macys.com]), and my god what a difference. Feet are dry and warm all day. They're the only kind I wear now.
Oh...I dunno... (Score:5, Funny)
Hey guys, guys?! Someone tell me, are cats the next thing in vermin control?
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It's true, and the next thing in computing is cellular automation!
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Awesome! I'm waiting for my nanite inject... WE ARE BORG, RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.
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One word answer: (Score:5, Insightful)
No.
Longer answer: No and it's not as eco-friendly as people would like you to believe.
1. You need to farm it. Farms in general are never eco-friendly as they eliminate habitat.
2. You still need to use epoxy to bond the strands together. This epoxy is nearly identical to the epoxy used in carbon fiber and fiberglass and is just as nasty.
3. The claim that it would break down in landfills is bogus. Material decomposition in landfills is slow due to the anaerobic nature of landfills. Also, bamboo encased in epoxy isn't going to decompose like typical un-worked bamboo.
And since bamboo is weaker than carbon fiber, but more expensive than fiberglass, I expect it to never take the place of either, except in decorative modes.
Yes, I know, you can build a bamboo frame bicycle that performs well, but it's expensive and a novelty. When it's not done well....recoil in horror: http://www.instructables.com/i... [instructables.com]
Yeah, I'll take a steel frame, plox.
--
BMO
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Yes, I know, you can build a bamboo frame bicycle that performs well, but it's expensive and a novelty. When it's not done well....recoil in horror: http://www.instructables.com/i [instructables.com]...
You know, that looks amazingly ugly, but bicycles built that way are within a few percentage points of the weight of bicycles built "properly", and just as strong. I've been to Calfee and that's how bicycles are actually prototyped, basically. They use carbon fiber tubes and carbon fiber ribbon, but it's the same process. Cut and scallop the tubes, stick them together with epoxy putty, once that sets you wrap it in the ribbon while applying epoxy with a brush. Done and done.
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I like the idea of Bamboo bikes, don't get me wrong here, but they are not "within a few percentage points" of a modern bike frame.
I'm only talking about the difference between just wrapping the joints, and an actual finished bicycle.
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Efficiency in this case is not measured in the composite product because that can be what ever you want it to be and doesn't necessarily need to be an epoxy. This is all about the efficiency of the fibre reinforcement, how much energy is required to produce it, how much water is required and how long it takes to produce.
So is it better than plantation forest and should it replace them? Is it more energy efficient that glass fibre production and should it replace it? Does it use less water than current pl
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Thanks -- said what I came here to say. Well, except you said it better.
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It's almost a rule that titles that are questions can only be answered no. If the answer was yes then the question wouldn't be asked.
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Were those "other factors" you waking up from your dream?
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I tried to build a bamboo bicycle, but it didn't go well.
Turns out I shouldn't have used chopsticks in place of a fork.
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makes good bongs, though.
How do they compare with carbon fiber bongs?
Don't you mean... (Score:4, Insightful)
Expect the unexpected (Score:5, Interesting)
expect the unexpected unintended side effects.
I'm always glad to see new developments in materials science, but one of the potential issues that jumped out at me when I see them looking at plant based materials for cars is whether it will be tasty.
Not that I envision a horde of Panda's attacking our new bamboo cars, but insects and rodents might well. There was a change made to the plastic sheath in automotive wiring some years ago to use a soy based coating, for example, and it turns out mice liked to eat it; dramatically increasing rodent damage to vehicle wiring -- I seem to recall an article where at least one manufacturer combated the issue by adding 'spices' to the coating to make it less appetizing.
No idea if that's a concern with bamboo; but its something to consider; along with any number of other things maybe nobody has thought about. Only way to find out is to try, right :)
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You would think there would be something they could add to it that would repel this taste or something. I mean I used to put cayenne pepper dust in my bird feeders to discourage squirrels and other rodents (birds can't taste it). Now I have a squirrel proof feeder but don't feed as much as I used to (just late in the season for stragglers and very early spring). But you would think that they could add something that would repel rodents or insects or whatever without changing the properties of the material t
Introducing your next performance car (Score:2)
The BamBaoni 5000 [carmodification.org]
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The headline rule (Score:2, Insightful)
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Just saying it is good for the environment doesn't really make it so.
Is it really so? From what I can tell, not any more than what it wants to replace once you figure everything in from the final product.
does that automagically make me a Republican or denier or something?
Have they already forgotten the Trabant? (Score:2)
The pinnacle of East German automotive technology, a car made out of wood.
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It's lazy stereotyping to mock the Trabant without actually looking at how it was made. Sure, the design was dated and yes, the engines were terrible, but they were reliable and cheap, and actually
Cold makes thngs brittle ... (Score:2)
Wrong. The body was made from waste cotton fibre bonded with phenol resin. It's a great material - light, strong, reasonably eco-friendly, non-corrosive. It's not a million miles from carbon fibre or even what this article is talking about. The rest of the Trabant was a conventional spot-welded steel monocoque.
It's lazy stereotyping to mock the Trabant without actually looking at how it was made. Sure, the design was dated and yes, the engines were terrible, but they were reliable and cheap, and actually a much more efficient car than most of the gas-guzzlers made in the west.
My main gripe about the Trabant's build quality was the poor panel fit, but that's not an inherent drawback of the materials it was made from, just a side-effect of somewhat old-fashioned tooling.
The problem with the Trabant's resin body was cold. I saw a Trabant collide with a Volvo once, it was about -10 degrees C and the Trabant's front end just shattered like glass. The Trabi was also very light, I remember walking past a Range Rover stuck in a big pile of snow many years ago. Somehow the driver had gotten himself stuck and was busy with a shovel trying to get himself out of. All of a sudden this Trabant with chained up wheels comes buzzing along, crawls over the snow drift like a snowmobile and
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This article ... (Score:2)
Properties? (Score:2)
Any list of the relative properties of carbon reinforced epoxy and epoxy impregnated bamboo? Density, strength, elastic modulus, impact strength etc?
People use carbon fiber where its high strength / weight and stiffness / weight improve the overall performance and efficiency of a vehicle. Is bamboo as good?
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PHYSICAL, CHEMICAL, AND ME CHANICAL PROPERTIES OF BAMBOO AND ITS UTILIZATION POTENTIAL FOR FIBERBOARD MANUFACTURING [telenet.be]
That was the first result of about 299,000 for the simple Google query "physical properties of bamboo." Have a nice day.
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Thank you. That is for standard bamboo which is about 30X weaker than graphite reinforced epoxy. I hope that isn't what they are thinking of using as a replacement.....
If it is, then they are being silly if they are considering it for anything other than decorative or special purpose (like damping) applications.
Nobody uses CF anymore (Score:2, Funny)
It's all about SD and microSD these days.
Prior art (Score:2)
Bamboo car from Gilligan's Island [therpf.com]
Hemp (Score:5, Interesting)
Henry Ford specified hemp fiber-based panels for his cars a hundred years ago, but a psychopathic government leveraged its corruption [cato.org] to benefit the tree pulp and synthetic fibers bosses, while claiming it was about social values.
IIRC you'd need a blunt 4' long and 18" across to get a buzz from hemp, and you'd die from smoke inhalation first. It's a great cash crop for farmers, can grow in less fertile soil (while improving it), produces Omega-3 "on the vine" and is far more productive per-acre than trees. So, a clear economic threat to those friends of the powerful.
It also makes fantastic long, strong fibers, once considered essential to national security [youtube.com].
Re:Hemp (Score:5, Informative)
IIRC you'd need a blunt 4' long and 18" across to get a buzz from hemp, and you'd die from smoke inhalation first.
All depends on the variety with modern hemp strains bred for low psycho-activity to make it more acceptable. That along with allowing the males to flourish and fertilize the females produces hemp that won't get you high.
Hemp is a wonder plant, the fiber is very useful, the plast left over from extracting the fiber also has numerous uses including plastic like. The seeds have a high oil content, a very high grade oil useful for industrial uses, as well as for food containing all the essential oils and the seeds are one of the few sources of complete proteins, much like soybeans. Basically you could live a long time on nothing but hemp.
Then there are the recreational and medicinal uses of the psycho-active strains.
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Actually, composite materials built with hemp fiber as almost as strong as carbon fiber composites and definitely way more biodegradable. I would not be surprised that the major auto manufacturers are looking at going with hemp fiber composites for body panels within the next ten years in an effort to lower the weight of an automobile without the expense of making the lightweight body panels out of carbon fiber.
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a blunt 4' long and 18" across
I am intrigued by your ideas and would like to subscribe to you newsletter.
Carbon and Fiber (Score:2)
Well bamboo is primarily made of carbon, and it is fiberous... so now we can apply the term "carbon fiber" to anything made out of wood, I guess.
Dang! (Score:2)
I should have taken that basket weaving class!
Natural materials used to be common in cars. (Score:2)
At least up until the late 60's it was common to have natural material in cars, coconut fibers in carpets and seats etc.
Environment (Score:2)
Plus, it does not have a negative effect on the environment.
Of course, that depends on how it is used. If the bamboo can be separated from the other materials, it will decompose nicely. It's another matter if you take bamboo fibers and mix them with epoxy.
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Why are foods being diverted to fuels or construction material - first corn, now bamboo....
In the first case it's because of the corn lobby. Bamboo, on the other hand, is actually good.
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You should probably ask the BBC about that. Cheers!
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Amen.
In my previous house, bamboo was all over the back garden. You couldn't get rid of it. Every summer we'd cut it all down and burn it, and every winter it would come back. Sometimes even in the same summer. You could walk over the grass and suddenly impale yourself upon an 2-inch-tall bamboo shoot that was taking root - no kidding.
It grew so fast that you had to get every bit or a few weeks later you'd have a stem that you need a hacksaw to cut through. And it could easily grow 6-8 feet tall and be