Forgot your password?
typodupeerror
Government United States Technology Politics

If Immigration Reform Is Dead, So Is Raising the H-1B Cap 341

Posted by Soulskill
from the congress-members-shouting-at-one-another dept.
dcblogs writes: In a speech Wednesday on the floor of the U.S. House of Representatives, Rep. Luis Gutierrez (D-Ill.) declared immigration reform dead. He chastised and baited Republicans in Congress for blocking reform, and declared that winning the White House without the support of a growing Hispanic population will become mathematically impossible. "The Republican Presidential nominee, whoever he or she may be, will enter the race with an electoral college deficit they cannot make up," said Gutierrez. If he's right, and comprehensive immigration reform is indeed dead, then so too is the tech industry's effort to raise the cap on H-1B visas. Immigration reform advocates have successfully blocked any effort to take up the immigration issue in piecemeal fashion, lest business support for comprehensive reform peel away. Next year may create an entirely new set of problems for tech. If the Republicans take control of the Senate, the tech industry will face this obstacle: Sen. Chuck Grassley (R-Iowa). Grassley, the ranking Republican on the Judiciary Committee could become its next chairman. He has been a consistent critic of the H-1B program through the years. "The H-1B program is so popular that it's now replacing the U.S. labor force," said Grassley, at one point.
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

If Immigration Reform Is Dead, So Is Raising the H-1B Cap

Comments Filter:
  • by i kan reed (749298) on Friday June 27, 2014 @04:19PM (#47335887) Homepage Journal

    H1B is merging with the us labor force, not replacing. The overwhelming H1B workers I know have either become citizens or are eager to do so.

    • by ulatekh (775985) on Friday June 27, 2014 @04:29PM (#47335981) Homepage Journal

      H1B is merging with the us labor force, not replacing. The overwhelming H1B workers I know have either become citizens or are eager to do so.

      No, immigrants are replacing native workers. The Center For Immigration Studies just released a report [nationalreview.com] showing that all employment growth since 2000 has gone to immigrants, legal and illegal. There is no general labor shortage.

      • by i kan reed (749298) on Friday June 27, 2014 @04:36PM (#47336041) Homepage Journal

        You say "no", but even if we accept the study by a hyper-partisan group with a specific objective of removing immigrants as valid, what you posted doesn't actually contradict what I said.

        Now, we can argue to hell and back what constitutes "taking jobs", but the fact that they're trying as hard as possible to be Americans is an important one.

        • Okay, and after review of the actual publication [nrostatic.com](not the editorial you linked) there is some highly suspect data point selection, picking just before a minor recession, a major recession, and right now as primary data points for employment information can lead to some skewed numbers.

          I won't say I don't accept what's published there. The analysis isn't bad aside from that major point. But it does give me some concern that it wasn't compiled with an intellectually honest intent.

      • by ShanghaiBill (739463) on Friday June 27, 2014 @04:58PM (#47336229)

        No, immigrants are replacing native workers.

        This is the Lump of Labor Fallacy [wikipedia.org]. There is not a fixed number of jobs in an economy. The number of jobs tends to expand when more workers are available. Liberal immigration policies are correlated with lower unemployment. When Poland joined the EU, most current members blocked immigration. The exceptions were Britain and Sweden, which subsequently had the lowest unemployment rates in Europe as Poles moved in, set up households, paid rent, bought furniture, and created plenty of secondary jobs.

        The Center For Immigration Studies just released a report showing that all employment growth since 2000 has gone to immigrants

        Just because A=B does not mean that A caused B. The number of jobs created would have almost certainly been even lower without immigration.

        There is no general labor shortage.

        Who said there was? But there are shortages in many areas. For instance, there is a big shortage of non-immigrant farm labor. Do you really believe that an unemployed white guy is going to pick lettuce?

        • by LetterRip (30937) on Friday June 27, 2014 @05:22PM (#47336533)

          "There is not a fixed number of jobs in an economy."

          There is demand elasticity for labor, but it is not related to availability of labor it is related to demand for goods and services, not availability of labor. The demand for labor is essentially fixed or decreasing without some sort of driver for demand. Immigration can be a source of demand, but it isn't necessarily a source of demand. Since most immigrants send much of their income to their home country they tend to be a net reduction in demand.

          The reason unemployment is correlated to immigration is that countries relax immigration requirements when there is a shortage of labor.

          • There is demand elasticity for labor, but it is not related to availability of labor it is related to demand for goods and services, not availability of labor.

            Not true. A factory is not built where the demand is, but where the labor is available. The goods can be shipped. When those factory workers spend their wages, plenty of secondary jobs are produced as well.

            The reason unemployment is correlated to immigration is that countries relax immigration requirements when there is a shortage of labor.

            Except that, historically, the fall in unemployment follows rather than precedes the liberalization of immigration. Polish immigration to Britain was an obvious example of that.

        • by melchoir55 (218842) on Friday June 27, 2014 @05:27PM (#47336585)

          But there are shortages in many areas. For instance, there is a big shortage of non-immigrant farm labor. Do you really believe that an unemployed white guy is going to pick lettuce?

          If the wages available to him weren't un-livably low because he would compete with people who don't pay taxes while taking advantages of social programs...? Yes. The unemployed white guy would pick lettuce. A similar effect is strongly depressing wages in the tech sector.

          Being white has nothing to do with willingness to work. Economic realities do, though.

        • Re: (Score:2, Flamebait)

          by aardvarkjoe (156801)

          Do you really believe that an unemployed white guy is going to pick lettuce?

          If the price is right, of course they will. Just because you're a lazy bastard doesn't mean everyone is.

        • if there wasn't so much Automation and off shoring going on. More importantly, those studies look at _total_ # of jobs, not Job quality. The reason there's a shortage of non-immigrant farm labor is that they pay them less than minimum wage and rely on their illegal status to keep them quiet. Also nearly all of the job growth in America is in low paying service sector jobs like fast food and customer service while the middle class manufacturing, tech and office jobs have been going off shore and to H1-Bs

          B
        • You'll notice that Wikipedia article only discusses the Lump of Labor Fallacy in terms of Europe.

          In the United States, things are a little different than the eurozone. You don't just get handed citizenship, you have to wait for years. Around 1/3rd of our immigrants are illegal, unskilled, and uneducated bumpkins with no meaningful English proficiency. Those folks have no chance of obtaining a loan, business license, or necessary permits, ever. And when you're not a citizen, you're paid in dirt and peanut
        • by riverat1 (1048260) on Saturday June 28, 2014 @01:08AM (#47338933)

          What you say is largely true. If somehow you could deport all of the people in the country illegally tomorrow it would plunge us into a massive depression from the drop in economic activity.

      • The Center For Immigration Studies just released a report showing that all employment growth since 2000 has gone to immigrants, legal and illegal.

        It should be noted that population growth is pretty much identical to immigration these days. Absent immigration, population growth in the USA (as in Western Europe) is negative.

        Which means that, at best, the overwhelming majority of job growth should be taken by immigrants since they're the overwhelming majority of population growth.

      • by shutdown -p now (807394) on Friday June 27, 2014 @07:02PM (#47337383) Journal

        Most immigrants are not H1B.

    • ...what sibling said; all you need do is to step inside an R&D or dev department of any Fortune 1000 tech company... it's like the UN in there, and good luck getting your foot in the door w/o an impressive resume or skills that they cannot otherwise import.

    • by Kagato (116051) on Friday June 27, 2014 @06:11PM (#47337001)

      What it's done is placed a carrot out there to bring on H1-B programmers instead of college hires.

      With an H1-B the employer has a lot of power over the employee. They can't move jobs with out sponsorship. It's very easy to knock them out of the country. You can easily classify them in a lower pay band because they have very little recourse. These employees usually get little to know employee development (i.e. money).

      With a college hire the employee can change jobs at will. You as the employer are expected to put money into employee development. And in the end they are likely to leave after a couple years to seek greener pastures.

      So yes, the H1-B program has done tremendous harm to our country. I consult with many large companies and I haven't seen a intern in a programming department in half a decade. College hires are few and far between. It's a radical change from how things were when I started in the 90s. Simply put business have put their money into short term H1-B and Offshore workers. They stopped putting money into college hires. Now they whine they can't find qualifies workers because they stopped investing in Junior programmers a decade ago.

      • by bADlOGIN (133391) on Friday June 27, 2014 @06:48PM (#47337277) Homepage

        Familiar with the Dreyfus model of skills acquisition?

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D... [wikipedia.org]

        Sure you are. It goes like this: Want to be an expert? First you need to to be proficient. Want to be proficient? First you need to have been competent. Want to be competent? First you need to have been an advanced beginner? Want to be an advanced beginner? First you'll need to be a novice. Want to be a novice? Great! Just get started learning by following the rules and doing what people around you do. Experience will let you unwind the stack.

        Every profession maps to this. It's a type of career ladder. And what do H1-B's do? They seriously knock out the chances of getting a position on the lower rungs of the ladder. H1-B aren't taking me and other Gen-Xers jobs, they're taking the millennial's jobs. And the Baby Boomers who pissed & shit in the punch bowl that used to hold the American dream don't care enough to do anything about it. They started setting the tone for all this bullshit over 10 years ago and just like everything else, now we're left holding the bag.

        Fuck class warfare. I think there's some serious generational knuckle dusting that needs to be applied to those in power in BOTH political parties regarding what's happened on their watch to whole notion of careers they've been selling to the rest of us.

      • by Bartles (1198017)
        Why should I go to college for CS, if I know I will have to compete with some low-paid dude from China? I can't pay back my $80K in student loans that way.
      • by techhead79 (1517299) on Saturday June 28, 2014 @04:46AM (#47339359)

        Simply put business have put their money into short term H1-B and Offshore workers.

        Which is a symptom of a problem that started many years before 2000. The race to the bottom line really has no limits.

        With a college hire the employee can change jobs at will. You as the employer are expected to put money into employee development.

        What I've found impressive with the H1-B visa holders I've worked with is the network they have to train them. Some of their resumes are fluff, but you'd never know it because what they don't know they don't just have google there for them but a network of other H1-B visa holders to answer questions and basically provide that "on the job" training they supposedly don't need. That's what college kids also have to compete with, not just low pay and the inability to hop jobs...but a training network.

        In order for CS college grads to compete with H1-B visa holders they would need an additional year or so training just for language and technologies they will be using in one specific job (a few java classes on basics doesn't train you in j2ee, php doesn't teach you about phar files or frameworks, a few JavaScript classes doesn't teach you anything close to the insanity business users request front ends to do with it)...then they would need to sign a contract with the employer that states they will not change jobs again for at least X number of years....or get a raise for that long either....or have any benefits....then they would be on par with H1-B visa holders.

        They can't compete so they will not get hired. The only way to win this (yes, I have a side because I too used to be a fresh out of college kid and it took me a decade doing odd free jobs to gain the experience you need to get a job now. Today I spend my days teaching H1-B visa holders how to write clean code and solve basically everything they can't figure out.) is to give H1-B visa holders more rights just as any employee would have. Give them the right to play the market just as US employees can. It might seem ass backwards, but fighting change that large corporations profit from almost never works in an oligarchy owned by them. I'll give them that I've yet to meet one that isn't a hard worker (granted they got here for a reason), but in terms of technical ability they are no better or worse than a college grad...and I think we can at least agree there are plenty of them without a job?

        Of the college interns I've worked with I was very impressed and they were far far more independent than any H1-B visa holder I've ever met. Granted the interns at my company would have already been at the top of their class though.

        • by Kagato (116051)

          I have a different tact. I typically am brought in with a Coterie of other senior developers at mid-cap companies. Ten of us will usually replace a mix of 30+ onshore H1-B and offshore developers. Basically on-shoring work for companies that have gotten sick of sub-par code that can't perform under load. At my current contract 18 months ago their problem was a back log of issues and enhancements with a 2 year wait time and a web site that crashed under peek loads. Performance is radically better, bugs

  • by mcolgin (818580) on Friday June 27, 2014 @04:23PM (#47335921) Homepage
    It's surprising to be that the R's support lower H1B caps. I've never really heard a position from the Dem's on this. I'm not exactly educated on this issue, but it seems that H1B directly compete with my ability to be a programmer; and large companies are the ones mostly vying for the talent H1B brings in. With barriers to competition being as low as a cost of a computer, why would we want increased H1B? I know they say there's not enough US workers for the tech industry.. but do they really mean, there's not enough CHEAP tech workers? What's the Dem's position on this?
    • by lawnboy5-O (772026) on Friday June 27, 2014 @04:26PM (#47335949)
      Exactly - there are plenty of workers here in America that can fill that void - employers are just reluctant to pay the proper price for it.
      • Those of you who believe that an H-1B worker is paid less than a domestic worker don't know anything about the requirements of the program. In order to be H-1B eligible a position has to pay at least the prevailing wage for the job title in the region that the job is located. .

        add to that the filing costs, legal fees, and costs associated with other compliance requirements and it's MORE expensive to hire H1B workers.

        The real difference is that corporations can treat them like crap and and most of them

        • by Grishnakh (216268) on Friday June 27, 2014 @04:51PM (#47336179)

          > In order to be H-1B eligible a position has to pay at least the prevailing wage for the job title in the region that the job is located. .

          That's not really enforced.

          The big problem with H1Bs is that they're basically indentured servants (as you note), and it's very difficult for them to change jobs. So the companies can pressure them for more work, via unpaid overtime.

          They need to change the system so that H1Bs can switch jobs at any time, with no penalty. If companies are really THAT desperate for workers, they'll pay the filing costs and legal fees anyway, even if there's a chance the employee will leave. If they don't want to, then they're really not that desperate for workers are they?

          • you make a good point and I agree with your solution ... I will point out that in a severely depressed economy (such as we've "enjoyed" in recent years) that sort of indenture isn't materially different from the economic indenture that every worker is stuck with.
        • by NotDrWho (3543773) on Friday June 27, 2014 @04:56PM (#47336211)

          Those of you who believe that an H-1B worker is paid less than a domestic worker don't know anything about the requirements of the program. In order to be H-1B eligible a position has to pay at least the prevailing wage for the job title in the region that the job is located.

          Not if the "prevailing wage" has already been artificially lowered by the presence of so many H1-B workers. An a regular American work can also do things like quit if the job sucks and ask for raises.

          • and the prevailing wage has nothing to do with economic collapse ... or is that the fault of H!B workers too ?
          • by Trepidity (597)

            This is why it seems it'd be much less prone to gaming if it just had a minimum threshold, e.g. companies can sponsor an H1B for salary offers above $100k, but not for offers below that. That would automatically allocate them to areas of the economy that are actually in such high demand that salaries have been driven to high levels.

            • While i see your point it's a hard one to sell... people at that level in their chosen profession are going to be so well established that emigrating to the US just isn't going to be that attractive resulting in very small numbers of H1B's ... so you lose the benefits of having the program (i.e. having a worker pool where you need a lot of people that you haven't got) . . This article http://www.motherjones.com/pol... [motherjones.com] illustrates the real abuses of the H1B system. Using it to bring offshore workers onsho
              • Maybe we can quibble over the amount but Trepidity's solution seems solid. How about the rate being something on the order of 30% above the prevailing market wage? See with 30% above prevailing market rate, the price keeps going up... Probably should add something to the effect of max hours allowed to work and salary must always remain 30% above prevailing market rate.

              • by Trepidity (597)

                Well my point is that the justification for the program is that there are areas of the U.S. economy where domestic workers just don't exist: you put out a call, it's alleged, and you get no qualified resumes. One response to that claim is to ask, "well, what are you offering?" If you're offering $60k, my first reaction is to be, well have you tried offering more? If no, then try that first, then if you still can't find anyone, come back and we can talk. A threshold is just a way of codifying that.

        • by Darinbob (1142669) on Friday June 27, 2014 @05:18PM (#47336487)

          There may be legal requirements but that does not mean it is being followed in practice or that the spirit of the law is being blatantly broken.

          So just hire a senior H-1B worker for an entry level job title. Job titles are meaningless and not standardized.

          The real fiction is when companies lie and say that they can not find local qualified workers in order to justify hiring H-1B workers.

        • I have first hand experience with it - and it's clear, as the message came from the top to drive down wages... look for foreign workers. Laws be dammed, particularly in right to work states. It's a sad but real truth to this situation of immigration. Is it everywhere - of course not - but I'd wager mostly everywhere.
          • I have first hand experience with it - and it's clear, as the message came from the top to drive down wages... look for foreign workers. Laws be dammed, particularly in right to work states. It's a sad but real truth to this situation of immigration. Is it everywhere - of course not - but I'd wager mostly everywhere.

            While not exactly the same, my companies policy is the same. Huge multi-national firm everyone knows. You cannot hire Americans. New hires can only be from low cost countries, not H1B - they work in that country remotely. Being a multi-national company it's not that bad but companies don't want to pay American wages and benefits.

        • by sribe (304414)

          Those of you who believe that an H-1B worker is paid less than a domestic worker don't know anything about the requirements of the program.

          And you, apparently, know nothing about the ways employers game the system wrt advertised job titles vs actual duties. If you had friends who are program managers in large tech companies (I do), you'd know that the reason they are forced by upper management to hire H-1B's is most often explicitly to pay a lower wage. As in being told by the big boss "use H-1B's on this contract because we can't afford Americans."

          • And have you reported these abuses to ICE/BCIS ? Because that's illegal ... and if you don't report abuses of the system then you're part of the problem.
        • by sumdumass (711423)

          Supply and demand. If there are 10 unemployed programers, you can pay them all less than if there are only 2 unemployed programmers.

          But yes, working them to the bone and being able to better deal with their off shored counter parts are the main reasons.

      • by hibiki_r (649814)

        So is this theoretical programmer at home, playing poker, because he doesn't like the current wages? Because if he is at a different programming job, and he switches jobs because wages went up in a different employer, there's still an opening, just in a different company.

        I for one do not think there are many people refusing to get a programming job because of low wages, but your local market might be very different from mine,

        • I can't speak for everyone, but I most certainly have turned down jobs when the salary wasn't adequate, and I know plenty of others than have as well.
      • by jopsen (885607)

        Exactly - there are plenty of workers here in America that can fill that void - employers are just reluctant to pay the proper price for it.

        I'm an H1B worker here... and I get paid enough - just don't tell my manager :)
        But a fact is that without H1B I would be working from Toronto, London or home somewhere else in Europe... For the same company, doing the same thing.


        All you're going to change is the location of the worlds largest tech cluster... without immigration silicon valley is nothing.

    • by TechyImmigrant (175943) on Friday June 27, 2014 @04:39PM (#47336057) Journal

      You interest in having employment opportunities as a programmer is served by having a large programming industry in your locality.

      Anything that makes it easy for people to move to where the programming jobs are entrenches that place as being where the programmers and the programming jobs will be.

      If you aren't competing with immigrants, you aren't going to be competing for any jobs, because they'll be elsewhere.

      • by DarkOx (621550)

        Anything that makes it easy for people to move to where the programming jobs are entrenches that place as being where the programmers and the programming jobs will be.

        I don't buy it. Possibly for other industries sure but not for software developers. It isn't as if software development has huge capital requirements. You don't need a bunch of software firms around you to get a job developing software. The vast vast majority of developers work in firms outside the software industry. Every large retail corporation for example is going to have developers on staff, but exactly none of them will have their own aluminum smelting team. Anyone who needs software can stand u

        • by NormalVisual (565491) on Friday June 27, 2014 @06:41PM (#47337233)
          If we were talking about metallurgists you'd have a point but most programmers I don't think size of local industry is their main obstacle to employment nor do I think the availability of workers is a driver for the size of the industry.

          It isn't always, but depending on the kind of skills/work needed it can be. For instance, if you're primarily an embedded or industial automation developer, you're going to have an easier time finding work in an area that already does a lot of similar work, if for no other reason than there are non-trivial costs to running an embedded shop beyond just the software tools.
    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward

      Let me spell this out for you since you still don't seem to understand Left-Right politics thing:
      The oligarchy in charge introduces a bill that does 2 things:
      - raise legal immigration
      - pathway for citizenship for illegal immigrants.

      Then R's complain the that the D's want to import new voters from people who came here illegally (and continuing to screw people who follow your ridiculous legal immigration procedures).
      The D's then argue that the R's are xenophobic, hate immigrants, are heartless

  • by TheNastyInThePasty (2382648) on Friday June 27, 2014 @04:23PM (#47335927)

    Next year may create an entirely new set of problems for tech.

    Problems like how to treat their employees like human beings rather than disposable trash?

  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 27, 2014 @04:24PM (#47335937)

    Now maybe the IT jobs will pay a little better and people over 40 can get a IT job.

    Just say no to a cheaper, but less productive H-B1 visa holder

  • Immigration reform (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward

    So a Democrat is so concerned about the possibility that the Republicans won't take over the Senate, or won't get into the White House; that he, out of the goodness of his heart, tells the Republicans what they need to do to win.

    Reminds me of the phrase, "Beware of Greeks bearing gifts".

    To have someone in the Senate that sees the H1B program as replacing the American workers, would be a refreshing change from the current leadership that looks for every opportunity to raise the H1B cap, for their K street

  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 27, 2014 @04:31PM (#47335999)

    google cognizant. Lots of forum posts by their employees complaining that the company won't sponsor for a greencard. When you don't sponsor they have to leave. Company I work for refused to spend money on an h1b to continue sponsoring him , but brought in contractors who were L-2 visa holders at an india company instead. they don't want greencard holders. sponsorship costs a little money and once they get a greencard they can get market wages and will quit.

    look if companies have been h1b dependent for this long its because the ones they sponsor are not getting converted to greencard and/or quitting when they do because the job sucked. they just want lower wages with worse terms. its so obvious.

    rather odd that a guy from Iowa is the one guy seeing it. But go Grassley. If you just give them all greencards to start with.. then you will see the real demand for immigrant workers. cause they can quit.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 27, 2014 @04:34PM (#47336023)

    My personal problem with all this talk of immigration reform has been the consistent desire by both parties to making the expansion of E-Verify [wikipedia.org] a requirement of any bill. To sum it up, E-Verify is a way for the executive branch to block the employment of anyone that the database flags. Or more colloquially, you have to get permission from the president in order to feed and house your family.

    One of the biggest problems with e-verify is the false negative rate. Even if you assume absolutely no malice, [washingtonpost.com] you can easily end up on the "no work list" by accident. [cato.org] Note, that's not a false positive - giving people permission to work when they aren't permitted, it is stopping people who have done nothing wrong in the slightest.

    Requiring government permission to work is absolutely unacceptable policy in a free society. E-verify is a case where the cure is worse than the disease.

  • by gurps_npc (621217) on Friday June 27, 2014 @04:35PM (#47336037) Homepage
    Basically the argument is thus:

    Employers: There is a shortage of good tech qorkers. Give us more H1 visas so we can get the work done.

    Employees: These darn foreigners are taking our jobs! They work for much less than us people born in Amerika! (studys show about $13,000 less http://www.workpermit.com/news... [workpermit.com] )

    The simplest solution is of course to offer unlimited H1 Visas - at the cost of $15,000, paid by the corporation, before the employee is hired.. (with inflation adjustments so this doesn't become abused).

    This solves all real claims of not enough tech workers, it reduces the US budget, and gets rid of the financial incentive to refuse to hire perfectly good American tech workers.

    • Is the $15,000 fee paid yearly?

      If its not, your outlined plan would seem to give even more incentive to not hire Americans. Just pay the fee once, and then for the next N years keep the immigrant non-citizen workers at a lower wage.

      • by Grishnakh (216268)

        No, if you make it so that the H1 visa holder change jobs and at any time after the initial $15k fee, then it would be utterly stupid for the initial company to underpay him.

    • also forced OT pay for H1's As getting 60-80 hours an week work out them of with the idea if they get fired they get kicked out of the USA makes them better / cheaper then us workers.

      or what about cost of $15,000 + they must be payed at least 100K + inflation / cost of living adjustments an year.

  • by bhlowe (1803290) on Friday June 27, 2014 @04:52PM (#47336191)
    Dianne Feinstein should be charged with criminal negligence for writing the law that has been encouraging unaccompanied minors to travel to the US to cut in front of people who are in line for H1B's.
  • Republicans don't actually need to win a presidential election. They just need to control enough of congress to block or hinder any kind of meaningful social progression. The Tea Party knows this, which is why they really don't care about fielding an "electable" candidate.
    • Republicans don't actually need to win a presidential election. They just need to control enough of congress to block or hinder any kind of meaningful social progression.

      It doesn't really work in long term, because it then happens on state level anyway. Just takes longer.

      • by asmkm22 (1902712)
        I never said it was a good idea, just that it's what's happening. I also don't believe these people give a shit about the long term. They keep framing every "battle" like the nation will die tomorrow if we don't kick the Mexicans out, or allow abortions, or whatever. It's all about *now* for them.

Memory fault -- brain fried

Working...