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The Internet

As Big As Net Neutrality? FCC Kills State-Imposed Internet Monopolies 234

tedlistens writes: On Thursday, before it voted in favor of "net neutrality," the Federal Communications Commission voted 3-2 to override state laws in Tennessee and North Carolina that have barred local governments and public utilities from offering broadband outside the areas where they have traditionally sold electricity. Christopher Mitchell of the Institute for Local Self-Reliance said the move was as important for internet competition as net neutrality: "Preventing big Internet Service Providers from unfairly discriminating against content online is a victory, but allowing communities to be the owners and stewards of their own broadband networks is a watershed moment that will serve as a check against the worst abuses of the cable monopoly for decades to come." The laws, like those in over a dozen other states, are often created under pressure from large private Internet providers like Comcast and Verizon, who consequently control monopolies or duopolies over high-speed internet in these places.
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As Big As Net Neutrality? FCC Kills State-Imposed Internet Monopolies

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  • Well done FCC (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 28, 2015 @06:35PM (#49156045)

    Good on you FCC!

    • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

      by penix1 ( 722987 )

      I absolutely agree.

      This might just be coincidence but since the net neutrality decision, my night time speed has gotten way better. Ever since I started the service at about 6:00 PM until midnight the service would slow to a crawl making it almost totally unusable. This has been going on now for the 5 years I have been on Suddenlink. Now, I am getting the 20 MB/s all day long. Granted, 20 MB isn't blazingly fast but it beats the drop to roughly 1 MB/s I was getting between those times.

    • by Darinbob ( 1142669 ) on Saturday February 28, 2015 @10:43PM (#49156943)

      It's a slippery slope, soon the railroad barons will have to allow anyone to transport on their tracks!

      • Re:Well done FCC (Score:4, Insightful)

        by bjwest ( 14070 ) on Sunday March 01, 2015 @12:49AM (#49157277)

        If we can get the content providers and ISPs separated, like it should be, maybe we'll see competition like we had in the days of dial-in. Oh to have the option to choose my ISP based on MY needs and desires, rather than either DSL or Cable, or only one of them and no other choice.

        That should be our next goal. Split the content providers and ISPs into two separate entities.

        • I agree - all the tax money put those lines in and the baby bells are a government mandated monopoly. A level playing field would be amazing. When the FCC rolled back many of the '96 telco reform act the small ISP could no longer compete. Wholesale rates were higher than the telco was offering retail rates to the end user.

          For a good first step how about the telco's having to live up to their $400 billion in broken contracts. One agreement had every house in NJ to be on fiber by mid 2000s. http://newnetwor [newnetworks.com]

          • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

            by Gr8Apes ( 679165 )
            This is a point that's been stated over and over, we finally got part one: net neutrality. Part 2 is partially here, with the banning of those exclusive monopoly cabling deals. Now if the tax payer paid for cabling can be turned over to the municipalities, we can finally get to a point where your cable is essentially locally owned, and the services you may desire, email, web hosting, TV stations, etc, can be provided by whom ever you choose.
  • by anagama ( 611277 ) <obamaisaneocon@nothingchanged.org> on Saturday February 28, 2015 @06:37PM (#49156049) Homepage

    Finally!

    (actually, one word is impossible due to the lameness filter, and honestly some other words would be good, like: hahaha, die bastards die, suck it, etc. etc.)

    • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

      by Black Parrot ( 19622 )

      actually, one word is impossible due to the lameness filter

      Maybe we can get the FCC to take that on next!

    • Re:One Word ... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by NoNonAlphaCharsHere ( 2201864 ) on Saturday February 28, 2015 @06:56PM (#49156151)
      The irony of your post vs your sig is delicious. Meanwhile, I can't help wondering how long it will take some future Republican administration to unroll this, so the big ISPs can go back to rent-seeking.
      • Re:One Word ... (Score:5, Insightful)

        by ShanghaiBill ( 739463 ) on Saturday February 28, 2015 @08:07PM (#49156411)

        I can't help wondering how long it will take some future Republican administration to unroll this, so the big ISPs can go back to rent-seeking.

        That is unlikely. There is rarely a ground swell of support for anti-monopoly actions, such as NN and this ban on bans, because the public is not aware of how much they are harmed by rigged markets. But once the monopoly is broken, people will be much more opposed to reinstating it.

        • Re:One Word ... (Score:4, Insightful)

          by NoNonAlphaCharsHere ( 2201864 ) on Saturday February 28, 2015 @09:03PM (#49156657)
          Nah. Lots of corporate campaign contributions, a few Federal lawsuits, and then there'll be a lot of sound bites about "getting the government off our backs" and "deregulation" and "states rights" and hey presto! we'll be back to monopolistic rent-seeking before you know it.
          • Actually, the FCC basically wrote the lawsuit with all it's work on the internet being an information service or an enhanced service prior to 96. I doubt the FCC will have to wait until republicans get in power before having to toss the title 2 regulation over the internet.

            It is important to note, the FCC has never until recently held any position that the internet was anything other than a title 1 enhanced or information service. Even the brief period of time in the 90's when it became a title 2 classifica

          • It's hard to say though. There's enough of a libertarian leading in the party now that I don't think the pro-corporate faction could get away with it. They're essentially a minority in the party, with enough clout to stop or delay bureaucrats but not enough to add their own regulations (ie, barring municipal utilities is adding regulation, while allowing them is more hands-off, and the hypocrisy would be obvious even to factions who normally only care about social issues).

          • Or, we could just send it to SCOTUS and let them fuck us over like what happened when they said businesses and unions were people.

          • Not as long as John Oliver is on the job keeping them honest. Hard to believe he's accomplished so much so far with only 15 minutes a week dedicated to examining one issue in depth.

      • by anagama ( 611277 )

        Yeah -- Obama being basically a GOP posterchild in every other policy -- how ironic. After 8 years, fucking finally he does something a liberal could be proud of.

    • Re:One Word ... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Luckyo ( 1726890 ) on Saturday February 28, 2015 @08:08PM (#49156417)

      One sentence: Now you actually have a chance to have a decent internet service without massively overpaying for it in US.

      It's going to be interesting to see how quickly municipal internet in US can actually challenge incumbent monopolies and force them to compete on quality and price.

      • by Adriax ( 746043 )

        Now begins the stall tactics. "Grass roots" opposition on the basis of the project would be a huge waste. Officials who support the projects finding themselves target by cookie cutter *insert politician name here* attack ads on cable.
        All so their lobby drones have more time to rewrite the laws and make it illegal again.

        • Re:One Word ... (Score:5, Informative)

          by SEE ( 7681 ) on Sunday March 01, 2015 @12:27AM (#49157235) Homepage

          Given the 8-1 decision in Nixon v. Missouri Municipal League in 2004, it's essentially certain that this FCC action will be overturned by the courts. The FCC doesn't have a legal leg to stand on.

          In that case, the Supreme Court ruled that federal law did not and could not preempt a Missouri state law that prohibited municipalities from providing Internet service. Of the eight-member majority in that case, five (Kennedy, Ginsburg, Breyer, Scalia, and Thomas) are still on the court.

          • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

            by Anonymous Coward

            That was before Title II. Now they actually have the authority.

            • by thaylin ( 555395 )

              And they are not preempting the ban. They can still ban it, but if they dont they cannot restrict it to imaginary boundaries.

      • Re:One Word ... (Score:5, Interesting)

        by Darinbob ( 1142669 ) on Saturday February 28, 2015 @10:51PM (#49156969)

        Municipal electric utilities have sprung up for some time, but they're still relatively uncommon despite the benefits. I suspect it will be similar for internet utilities.

        And of course, if Comcast charges $75/month and the city charges only $25, some people will still whine about it because it's the evil government charging the $25.

        • Don't you understand this decision? It's not about 'self-control' of the Internet backbone, it's about allowing municipalities or utility companies to offer services outside their service area, the locals don't want to run their own Internet backbone, they want someone else to come into their territory and offer service.

  • cant lie (Score:5, Insightful)

    by ganjadude ( 952775 ) on Saturday February 28, 2015 @06:40PM (#49156057) Homepage
    when we all found out who was taking over the FCC, I was terrified. Former cable lobbyist, now in charge of the group intended to regulate the same people. But it really looks like wheeler may be the right man for the job
    • Re:cant lie (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Luthair ( 847766 ) on Saturday February 28, 2015 @07:13PM (#49156219)
      Oddly parts of his background were overlooked by everyone. He was CEO of a small ISP at one point and was involved in tech startups until the 90s.
    • Now we can go back to worrying about the bankers in charge of banking regulations.

    • by Andrio ( 2580551 )

      John Oliver once said having a former telecom lobbyist be the chairman of the FCC was like having a dingo babysit your baby. Wheeler responded to this by saying "I am not a dingo"

      I always wondered if that had like a double meaning.

  • Yay! (Score:4, Funny)

    by Black Parrot ( 19622 ) on Saturday February 28, 2015 @06:50PM (#49156107)

    Up with service! Down with monopolies! Up with net neutrality! Down with regulation! Up with Pluto! Down with Kim Dotcom!

    Wait a minute - Today's stories leave me feeling edgy and confused.

    • Up with service! Down with monopolies! Up with net neutrality! Down with regulation! Up with Pluto! Down with Kim Dotcom!

      Wait a minute - Today's stories leave me feeling edgy and confused.

      Things tend to equal out; read Slashdot again on Monday to set things right.

  • Great News (Score:5, Interesting)

    by SuperKendall ( 25149 ) on Saturday February 28, 2015 @06:51PM (#49156123)

    I'm still dubious about the end effect of net neutrality regulations being passed (remember that none of us have seen the actual regulations to take effect, and none will until they are finalized).

    That said, the real road to true Net Neutrality is and always will be in allowing real competition for your ISP provider, and that's the kind of thing that this allows for. If a community cannot be well served by a "real" networking company it makes no sense to block them from taking matters into their own hands.

    So I applaud this action, I just wish they would be open in other regards rather than limiting.

    • I, for one, am concerned over the constant use of the words "legal content" without defining what is and what isn't "legal content" and under what jurisdictions that falls. My pet theory is that bullying and "hate speech" will become unlawful and then blocked, and you know how the government is when it has a new hammer; everything starts to look like our thumbs.
  • Even bigger.... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Dega704 ( 1454673 ) on Saturday February 28, 2015 @08:10PM (#49156427)
    The net neutrality vote gets a lot more attention, but this is even more important IMHO. Net neutrality wouldn't even need to be enforced by the FCC if there were sufficient competiton.
  • They have these duopolies everywhere. They have it in New York city and Los Angeles and Miami and Seattle.

    I'm reserving judgment until they break the monopolies that are CITY and county imposed as well. They're not any better.

    A monopoly is a monopoly. I don't care who imposed it.

  • by Lumpy ( 12016 ) on Saturday February 28, 2015 @08:20PM (#49156471) Homepage

    The government is acting with sense and doing so in a honest way that fair to citizens.

    This is not right, so I firmly believe that the world is coming to an end.

  • Here's Karl Denninger's take on this. I don't agree or disagree. I just want to see what the reaction is: http://market-ticker.org/akcs-... [market-ticker.org]

    • That's bullshit, because the ISPs sold "all you can use" plans, then failed to deliver. The only reason the so-called "cost shifting" went on is because the ISPs outright lied about what they were selling to consumers. To imply that Netflix allowing customers to use what they've paid for is somehow wrong is just plain wrong-headded.

      You're basically blaming Netflix for the ISPs mis-selling a service.

      • That's bullshit, because the ISPs sold "all you can use" plans, then failed to deliver. The only reason the so-called "cost shifting" went on is because the ISPs outright lied about what they were selling to consumers. To imply that Netflix allowing customers to use what they've paid for is somehow wrong is just plain wrong-headded.

        You're basically blaming Netflix for the ISPs mis-selling a service.

        It is actually worse. The product they sell is the Internet and specifically all the content on the internet and netflix is a major provider of internet content. Their argument is blaming Netflix for giving them business... Think about that.

  • by Applehu Akbar ( 2968043 ) on Saturday February 28, 2015 @08:35PM (#49156535)

    And I speak as a Republican. Unless there's some outrageous hidden agenda yet to emerge, net neutrality just means that Internet service over cable, because it is in many places a natural monopoly, is henceforth to be treated as a utility, like your electrical service. How you use the watt-hours you buy for your home is your own business, and we are all more free if the same applies to your Internet feed. Regulation of business is something we by instinct would rather not have, but if you live in an area where Comcast is the only game in town, treating it as a utility is more palatable than giving a single company full control of your access to the Internet.

    Whether to build municipal broadband is a decision that any locality should be allowed to make for itself. Because wired Internet service so often is a natural monopoly, there are all kinds of situations in which towns or villages or even small neighborhoods find themselves cut off from any service by a company that simply does not feel it worthwhile to extend service to that market. Value decisions like this should be the company's right, but has no business standing in the way of any group of users who wish to band together to organize service of their own.

    • Because wired Internet service so often is a natural monopoly, there are all kinds of situations in which towns or villages or even small neighborhoods find themselves cut off from any service by a company that simply does not feel it worthwhile to extend service to that market.

      Really, because the "company simply does not feel it worthwhile to extend service to that market"?

      They decline to extend services to areas that they don't think will be profitable, see they are a profit-driven enterprise in most case

      • So long as localities get to vote on this sort of situation, I see a much smaller problem than if the cable companies are able to lobby a state legislature into getting government to give them a lock on the entire state. That is the situation the FCC just ruled against.

  • Disbarring the government from offering Internet service is not a state imposed monopoly. They are onyl baring one single entity from becoming an ISP.
  • by wisnoskij ( 1206448 ) on Saturday February 28, 2015 @09:03PM (#49156653) Homepage
    While it would be great if the government offered Internet and gave many an option other than Comcast, I could see it going pretty Orwellian pretty quickly. The government offering its own service pretty much guarantees that they will subsidize the service more than they already subsidize ISPs. Making it impossible to compete. And the government would not have to pass any data retention laws if they already handled everyone's internet data. There is a point to not allowing the government to compete with businesses, and there are benefits to keeping the lawmakers and enforcers one degree of separation away from citizens.
    • I don't know what's Orwellian about it, but that's the general idea. A private company can only charge customers, a government can charge/tax everyone. So certain projects (ie ones that require infrastructure) may be to expensive for a private company to undertake if they get too few customers. But a group of citizens can get together and say "It would benefit the whole town if everyone/most had blah (water, electricity, sewage, postal service, internet, etc)". So once a certain majority agrees, a law is pa

    • by swb ( 14022 )

      The most sensible government broadband propsals seem to only involve the government in the layer 1/2 aspect of the network and any layer 3+ services are simply using the municipal network as a transport layer and are actually provided by third parties. Even management of the layer 2 side could be outsourced to a third party on some kind of basis where they just make it work for some kind of fixed margin for a period of time.

      The metaphor that makes the most sense to me are municipal roads. The government i

  • by SEE ( 7681 ) on Saturday February 28, 2015 @10:39PM (#49156927) Homepage

    As a constitutional matter, municipalities do not have any independent existence; they are organs of the state governments. Municipal governments only have whatever powers states choose to give them, and the federal government may not commandeer a state government. So if a state chooses to deny its municipalities the authority to sell Internet access (or sell it below a certain price), then no declaration from the FCC can give the municipality that power, nor require the state to give a municipality that power.

    So, all this vote means is the FCC majority has decided to waste a bunch of taxpayer dollars losing a lawsuit.

  • I can't quite reconcile this:

    On Thursday, before it voted in favor of "net neutrality," the Federal Communications Commission voted 3-2 to override state laws in Tennessee and North Carolina that have barred local governments and public utilities from offering broadband outside the areas where they have traditionally sold electricity.

    With this:

    "allowing communities to be the owners and stewards of their own broadband networks is a watershed moment that will serve as a check against the worst abuses of the c

    • by thaylin ( 555395 )

      Communities and public utilities can already offer service in thief own areas, this change would allow them to offer service in other communities, exchanging their old provider for another, neither owned or controlled by them.

      this is not true in these states. Wilson and Chattanooga got grandfathered in because they already built their network before the laws took effect.

      If I live in a community that is served electricity by power company A, and power company B in the neighboring community offers internet access that I want, allowing power company B to sell Internet access in the territory served by Power company A isn't 'self-ownership'... If the county next to me offers Internet access and now they can offer Internet service in my county, does my county now control the Internet backbone in our county or does the neighboring community?

      You are using a rather limited definition for the work community. I live in NC, near Wilson but outside of any area they will probably service, however I can give you a perfect example of how terribly limited your definition is. I live in an area with the City designation of Garner NC, however I dont live in Garner, because I live across the Wake (Garner's county

  • by Brett Glass ( 98525 ) on Sunday March 01, 2015 @01:58PM (#49159277) Homepage

    Actually, the FCC's action will have exactly the opposite effect. I own and operate a small, competitive ISP, and am quite willing to (and capable of) going up against any competitor on a level playing field. But I simply wouldn't enter any market where the city was providing service. Why? Because the city would engage in all of the following anticompetitive and predatory practices:

    * The city would completely control my access to rights of way and pole attachments, and would be motivated to keep me from getting that access or make it expensive;

    * I would be taxed and the taxes would be used to subsidize my competitor;

    * The city would engage in horizontal monopoly leverage from its other monopoly businesses (trash, water, sewer, and in many places energy) and would enjoy cross-subsidies from them; for example, it wouldn't have to build a new billing system but could use its existing one;

    * The city could also use its ability to tax, and bonding authority, to obtain capital for the buildout at bargain rates;

    * The city, with its deep pockets and by expending some of that capital, could engage in predatory pricing, offering its service below cost due to taxpayer subsidies. It could do this at the outset, to take customers away, or possibly permanently;

    * The city, because it provided those other services, would GET PAID more easily than I would because users wouldn't want their water, etc. cut off if they didn't pay the bill;

    * The city would know when both owner-occupied and rental real estate was turning over (because of changes in the party being billed) and so could always sell to people as they moved into a new home before they would have a chance to consider my service;

    * The city ISP would get the lucrative business of the city itself (eliminating one of the largest potential customers), as well as that of other government entities such as the county government and state government offices; and

    * The city, under the FCC's new Title II regime, could demand franchise fees from me that it would not have to pay itself.

    So, if you put yourself in the shoes of a hard working local ISP (which I am), or of a customer who wants choice, this no longer seems like such a good idea. Any ISP entering the market would have to fight an uphill battle against City Hall. So, new ISPs will not enter the market and existing broadband providers will have a strong incentive to pull out, leaving a monopoly. What is needed is FAIR, PRIVATE competition, not the unfair competition that turning unaccountable city bureaucrats loose would bring.

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