Tesla Adds Used Models To Its Inventory, For Online Purchase 65
Jalopnik reports that Tesla Motors Inc. has very quietly started to sell used cars online, following in the footsteps of larger car companies. Its new certified vehicle program brings down the staggering costs of one of their electric cars while still ensuring manufacturer maintenance and repairs.
Most of the cars that are on Tesla’s website were previously owned by people who have since traded up to the AWD Model S. Soon, this stockpile will also include leased Teslas.
Engadget adds You're limited to shopping in a handful of cities in the U.S. and Canada, but the cars come with a 4-year, 50,000-mile warranty to assuage fears that you've bought a lemon. No, the move doesn't make the company's luxury EVs much more attainable -- the best offer we've seen so far is for a $59,000 'entry' model.
Far too expensive for a used car (Score:5, Insightful)
Washington, used P85, 19,000 miles, $79,000.
New P85D, $87,500.
Why would I bother with the used one?
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Unlike internal combustion engines, electric brushless motors can last pretty much forever. Drivetrain wear is probably the #1 reason cars depreciate in value. If there's no wear, there's no depreciation.
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Maybe you have never owned a notebook or a cellphone, so let me note: batteries deteriorate.
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While all batteries deteriorate, the battery in the car is not the same type as in your notebook, and will last longer.
Re:Far too expensive for a used car (Score:5, Informative)
Actually, they are about the same type. Tesla's packs use a modified (PTC fuse and CID removed) version of the bog standard 18650 Li-ion cell, which is commonly used in laptop batteries.
It's the battery management system and the cooling system that would make the difference in longevity.
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It's the battery management system and the cooling system that would make the difference in longevity.
Usage patterns also matter. Plenty of people, like my wife and kids, regularly run down their phones and laptops to 0%, even when there is a charger three feet away. Most people commute 30 miles or less in a day, which is only about 15% of a Tesla's range.
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You think your wife and kids won't regularly run a Tesla down to 0% (for various values of "0"), even when there is a charger three feet away from where it is parked?
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It's the battery management system and the cooling system that would make the difference in longevity.
Sure, if you mean over provisioned batteries that you never have access to the full capacity of, then sure.
Tesla has nothing special, they just sell you 20kw/H batteries, and call them 5kw/H batteries, now they last 4 times as long. No those numbers are not exact matches for Tesla packs, but the point is the same.
My point is simply that they don't have anything special other than a different usage pattern to prevent stupid users from destroying the batteries.
Re:Far too expensive for a used car (Score:4, Informative)
From owner's estimations, ~90% of the battery's stated capacity is actually available for use. The 10% is not so much "fail-over" capacity as it is a buffer to keep the battery away from the extremes of charge/discharge states, where most of the degradation occurs.
Your cell phone battery has no problems charging to 100%, since you want to get as much energy (and therefore use time) in there as possible for the weight. However, charging to 100% harms the chemistry, and after a few years the battery no longer lasts as long. That's fine for a cell phone - part of it is planned obsolescence, part of it is the reality that a lot of people won't keep their phone more than a few years.
In an EV you have the luxury of maintaining a charge buffer, since the added weight and cost is fairly minimal and people have a much higher expectation of long-term performance.
So usage pattern + design (thermal management) + energy management which does prevent the user from destroying it = significantly different performance degradation profile.
=Smidge=
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Sure, but the cells Tesla uses are the same ones Panasonic sells to anyone else. Panasonic may have some special sauce electrolyte that makes them better than Energizer, but that still doesn't make Tesla's anything special compared to anything else that uses Panasonic sells.
Re: Far too expensive for a used car (Score:1)
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Yes, they are great cars. But why would I pay $60-70K for a used one, when a new one isn't that much more?
A BMW, $50k new. A few years old, $25k. That works. If that used BMW were $45k...that would NOT work.
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I expect that Teslas will depreciate but it'll just be less than with an ICE powered car. I'll be looking for a 30-40% depreciation before I could dream of talking the spouse into buying one.
Re:Far too expensive for a used car (Score:5, Insightful)
The used Tesla prices will respond to demand. If there's not enough demand at those prices, they lower the prices. If there's a glut of used cars to sell (like the ex-leased ones that will come along before long), then the price will be lowered. The initial high prices probably reflect the fact that there aren't many used Teslas as yet.
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There's also a waitlist for new Teslas, since demand is currently higher than the rate the Tesla can produce them.
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They are super expensive, and I have yet to see any battery tech that lasts over 4 years, and normally it is performing far worse than optimal at a fraction of that time.
Actual tests on actual used cars (by Consumer Reports) demonstrate that what you say is unequivocally wrong for the batteries used in EVs and hybrids. No, the ones in our notebooks and phones don't last so long, because size and weight are more important than lasting 10 years. Cars are designed differently, for different longevity/size/weight tradeoffs than are portable electronics.
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My 6 year old netbook battery hasn't declined noticeably yet, thanks to not being used a lot. So yes, fewer charging cycles can mean much longer life.
Tesla DOES use laptop batteries (Score:3)
No, the ones in our notebooks and phones don't last so long, because size and weight are more important than lasting 10 years. Cars are designed differently, for different longevity/size/weight tradeoffs than are portable electronics.
Except that Tesla (and Smarts, and the few other cars which use batteries manufactured by Tesla) use *the exact same kind* of battery cells as regular laptops (on purpose, because they are cheap and easy to source due to the economy of the scale at which they are produced).
The difference isn't the battery it self (it the exact same cell), it's the battery management software, and the usage pattern.
- Lithium batteries age with the number of cycle they go through. It happens really often that a laptop is drai
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Except that Tesla (and Smarts, and the few other cars which use batteries manufactured by Tesla) use *the exact same kind* of battery cells as regular laptops (on purpose, because they are cheap and easy to source due to the economy of the scale at which they are produced).
No, they purchase custom cells. Being Lithium-ion, they are certainly similar, and Tesla does not publicly reveal what is custom, but they are not the exact same.
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They mostly remove the safety equipment that's redundant in a Tesla battery pack. Normally they pack a thermal fuse that kills the battery if it overheats or experiences sufficient current overflow.
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They mostly remove the safety equipment that's redundant in a Tesla battery pack. Normally they pack a thermal fuse that kills the battery if it overheats or experiences sufficient current overflow.
They have revealed that. (They didn't really have a choice, since they wanted to patent parts of the process, to stop others from duplicating it by tearing apart their battery packs and figuring it out.)
There is no information, none whatsoever, which would confirm that's the only difference in the customized cells they buy from Panasonic.
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The point here is that just because some batteries are made from carbon and lithium does not make them equal.
And Tesla's are made from nickel and lithium. They haven't really revealed much else publicly except for 3 things: nickel, removal of safety systems from individual cells, and how they pack them together.
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If you've failed to see, then you haven't looked.
Prius batteries are warrantied for 10 years. Full parts and labour if they fail. Most last longer than that.
Priuses used as taxies tend to be replaced after 300,000 miles, and they don't need a battery replacement in that time.
Basically, car batteries have roughly the lifespan of an internal combustion engine.
Re: Far too expensive for a used car (Score:1)
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I'd be shocked if you also got the federal tax credit. For one thing, it could lead to fun games: Imagine if every purchaser of the car gets the $7500 tax credit.
I buy it from the factory, I get $7500 (but pay about $100K).
I sell it to you for $7500. You get $7500 back. It's free to you.
You sell it to me for $7500. I get $7500 back. I keep my car, and you just made $7500.
Repeat as necessary.
Re:Far too expensive for a used car (Score:4, Informative)
No, you do not.
If you look at the federal tax credits at fueleconony.gov, the tax credit only applies to the first owner of the vehicle, only for new vehicles, and only in certain years.
If you lease a new EV, the dealership keeps the federal tax credit as well. If you look at the forms at fueleconomy.gov, it's pretty specific.
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https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/taxevb.shtml
In short. No.
The original use of the vehicle commences with the taxpayer—it must be a new vehicle.
The vehicle is acquired for use or lease by the taxpayer, and not for resale. (The credit is only available to the original purchaser of a new, qualifying vehicle. If a qualifying vehicle is leased to a consumer, the leasing company may claim the credit.)
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Motors should be more reliable than engines and transmissions but I have changed more wheel bearings than engine and transmission bearings. I have little doubt that Tesla makes a well designed and reliable electronic drivetrain but I expect companies like GMC to build carefully crafted junk when they get around to it.
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Unlike internal combustion engines, electric brushless motors can last pretty much forever. Drivetrain wear is probably the #1 reason cars depreciate in value. If there's no wear, there's no depreciation.
ahem, about that [dailytech.com].
Three drive train replacements in 30k in an ICE vehicle would qualify it under probably every states lemon laws.
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> If I could afford $70k for a used one, I could afford a new one.
People don't get rich by indiscriminately buying new for an extra $8500 when used would be good enough. For some people, the way they came to be able to afford a $70k car (and also a new one) is by choosing used when it is good enough.
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Because it's just like new for a tidy little discount. Why pay full price when you don't have to?
The $79k car you picked out had a couple options that put it to $91k new, so you're getting a one year old car for 15% off. I think that's about right.
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Perhaps the main purpose of that pricing is to convince would-be buyers of new ones that their car will hold its value.
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There is a difference between being 'able to afford' something and being frugal. If you are wise with your money and you really wanted a Tesla, you would buy the used one and invest the $10k difference. It's backed by the same warranty and you're effectively getting the same thing.
It may be anecdotal, but without exception all of my comfortable/wealthy friends buy used cars while the ones living paycheck to paycheck buy or lease brand new ones. One of my friends cleared over $6 million after taxes last year
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It's actually a reflection on the odd fact that a brand new Tesla is often *cheaper* than a used one.
Yes, you heard that right - you can pick up a new Tesla cheaper - Tesla's got a continual backlog of at least 3 months or more...
Where's the link? (Score:3)
I went to http://www.teslamotors.com/ [teslamotors.com] and I didn't see any reference to used cars. The stories say they "quietly" started selling used cars, but "quiet" appears to be an understatement when you can't find it even if you're looking.
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http://www.teslamotors.com/models/preowned
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Comms Section. He's conjuring up a co-ordinated crapflood of said ASCII art and press releases in an article defined in the encrypted message you see. ;-0
Nice, missing new features, limited filtering (Score:4, Informative)
Thanks to the person who posted the link:
http://www.teslamotors.com/mod... [teslamotors.com]
Some of these cars are great deals.
You won't find the dual-motor versions, so they're all rear-wheel drive.
I don't think you'll find the autopilot feature on any of them.
And the real frustrating part of the experience is that the filters are very limited. You can't filter on particular features, such as panoramic roof, subzero package, or rear-facing seats.
I expect they'll improve the filtering when they have more than 20 cars to look at.
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http://logmysc.com/cpo-reports... [logmysc.com] will let you filter quite nicely
VIN
Locale
Trim
Auto Pilot
Dual Motors
Color
Roof
Wheels
Interior
Year
Miles
Price
Date Added
You are correct that none have CPOd with autopilot or dual motors yet. The consolidator also lets you see the sold cars (or at least ones removed). Presumably some could be removed without selling.
Cheapest so far was $53,000 S60 Grey Metallic 2013 26,569 miles
Cheapest 85kWh so far was $55,850 S85 Black 2012 18,633 miles
Cheapest P85 so far was $63,400 Black
$59k isn't bad (Score:4, Interesting)
Maybe just the newer models (Score:3)
They've had a link to pre-owned roadsters [teslamotors.com] for awhile. Of course, it's rare to actually find one, dammit...