Will Robot Cars Need Windows? 435
An anonymous reader writes: The Atlantic has an article asking whether autonomous cars need windows. If there's no driver, will the passengers want to look outside? In the summer, will anyone want to endure the relentless heat from the sun? The robot cars offer us a great opportunity to rethink the platform which is largely devoted to supporting the driver. But if a computer is in charge and it sees with dozens of cameras ringing the car, what else can we change? What else don't we need? What can improve?
carsickness (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:carsickness (Score:5, Funny)
Yes, but since there will be no drivers, we could just drug passengers into unconsciousness for the duration of their trip! RETHINK THE PLATFORM, MAN!
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You aren't re-thinking it enough. Cryofreeze your passengers.
Re:carsickness (Score:5, Insightful)
Also claustrophobia.
There is a reason why trains, even underground trains, have windows.
Re:carsickness (Score:4, Insightful)
Are they also going to throw out convertible and targa roofs on autos?
Geez, more and more I hope this driverless car thing doesn't take over and become *mandatory* my driving lifetime.
I've never owned anything but 2-seater sports cars, I don't think of driving as just a drudge, I actually have an adventure every time I fire up the engine and go for a drive!!!
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As I recall, the original iteration of subway cars were windowless.
It didn't end well...
Even if there is nothing to see outside, people still need that visual connection to the outside world.
Drive-throughs (Score:5, Insightful)
There are plenty of reasons (beyond merely operating the vehicle) to need windows:
Re:Drive-throughs (Score:5, Funny)
OT: Dogs (Score:2)
Serious question.
Re:OT: Dogs (Score:4, Funny)
Because dogs love it, and because there is nothing funnier than a dog with its face and ears flapping in the wind, drool splashing on the windshield of the car behind.
Honestly, picture Dug from Up ... in full gloriously happy tongue wagging happiness.
A dog with his head out the car windows is such an unbridled expression of glee+goofy it makes me smile just thinking of it.
Let's see a damned cat do that. You can't, because cats are stupid pets.
Of course at the time I had an onion on my belt, because that was the style back then ... wait? What?
Get off my damned lawn you darned cat lover!!
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And those of us with any sense in how we manage our pets put them in a crate whenever we are taking them somewhere in a vehicle.
It is safest practice for all concerned.
Re:OT: Dogs (Score:4, Insightful)
So is not going anywhere at all. Bet you don't let your kid make an airfoil with their hand on the hiway either. Curmudgeon.
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Does anyone here on the list still remember when as a kid, you didn't also have to be *bolted* into a seat? I remember crawling up in the space under the rear windshield on top of the seats and watching the world go by or even going to sleep.
I also was free to lay around and read or play toys in the whole back seat area.
I kinda feel sad for all the freedom to enjoy life a bit more has been lost in the era of fear and forced safety.
As
Re:OT: Dogs (Score:5, Insightful)
It is safest practice for all concerned.
Never take your dog out. That's safest of all! Just lock it in a cage and it won't ever come to harm, although it will probably die of desperation.
Seriously while I don't agree with the labrador bouncing around in the back of the pickup truck, and while I do realize that the airbag can easily kill my 5lb poodle if it deploys, I don't spend my entire life worrying about every possible little thing that can go wrong. She's in my wife's lap with her leash on, and she loves to smell outside the window. I'd rather let her enjoy the ride with a small chance of serious injury if the worst should happen, than make sure she was miserable every trip getting car sick in a "safe" crate somewhere in the back of my car.
Life has risks. It's up to everyone to figure out the trade off they are willing to accept for themselves.
Won't know any better (Score:5, Insightful)
Your dog is deprived of a simple pleasure. Hooray for you.
My dog arrives safely at his destination and won't become a 50lb projectile that could kill both of us in an accident. He also won't get any debris in his eyes that I'll have to have a vet remove later. My dog has plenty of joy in his life and I promise you will not know he missed anything by keeping his head inside the window.
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Nose candy. Dogs smell things we don't. When I visit friends and drive through the forest, the dogs damn near hang out the windows.
Oh, and it's fun.
Re:OT: Dogs (Score:5, Informative)
If your sense of smell was strong enough to let you smell something at the bottom of a lake [latimes.com], and if as a beloved pet your entire life was spent mostly in the same restricted area - a particular home, yard and neighborhood, you would also jump at the chance to get as much new, fresh and undiscovered air drift past your nostrils as you could. If ever you observe a dog with its head out the window in a car, it will have the "smiling" pose known by dog owners (relaxed jaw, ears back, tongue out) but also those nostrils will be working furiously the entire time. The dog is smelling everything it can, as much as it can.
Dogs are curious creatures (which is why wolves were first drawn to human habitations). Wild dogs and wolves in packs usually roam over large territories. Modern dogs have adapted to living a human lifestyle more or less, provided they get plenty of exercise and toys and social stimulation to keep them from being bored. But when they get the chance to add new smells to their experience, they love that most of all.
Re:OT: Dogs (Score:5, Funny)
this is why the best option is to strap the safety crate to the roof of the vehicle, and let the dog fear-poop itself while getting its fill of the 60mph scent-hurricane of highway travel.
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this is why the best option is to strap the safety crate to the roof of the vehicle, and let the dog fear-poop itself while getting its fill of the 60mph scent-hurricane of highway travel.
Mitt, is that you?
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I considered that a subset of "carrying stuff that sticks out a little," but probably should have mentioned it explicitly.
Re:Drive-throughs (Score:5, Insightful)
In aircraft, windows for passengers add a lot of expense and structural weakness. Yet aircraft still have them. Passengers don't want to feel boxed in, and just want to enjoy the view. For SDCs, windows will be necessary for quite a while in case the driver needs/wants to take over.
Re:Drive-throughs (Score:4, Insightful)
Window blinds have to be raised for safety reasons during take-off/landing because sometimes a passenger will be able to see something important or dangerous. Windows do provide some safety as well.
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William Shatner's greatest role.
Re:Drive-throughs (Score:5, Funny)
Re:carsickness (Score:5, Insightful)
People who get car sick need windows. Nuff said.
Pretty much. Did passenger cars in trains need windows? Do airplanes need windows? Do houses need windows?
Obviously the windows in today's cars need to provide a LOT of visibility so the driver can see as much as possible. But taking away a driver's need to see doesn't take a way the need for windows.
I honestly can't believe this is even a question.
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Houses don't need as many windows as they currently have so that people can see stuff outside. The reason houses have so many windows is so that people have an escape route in the event of a fire. If it weren't for that requirement, you could make houses much more energy-efficient by reducing their number. Do you really need a window in a bathroom, for instance? Heck no.
But yes, the reason planes and trains have windows is mostly so people can see outside, especially for planes.
For cars, however, they s
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That explains basement windows.
Maybe, but my recent experience in a 1930 house in the northeast was that those shitty old basement windows also allowed *too much* ventilation during the winter, and as a result a pipe froze.
Windows that can't accept blinds on bathrooms due to being in the shower are probably just an example of shitty architecture. My neighbor's house is like that and they installed frosted glass, but it still doesn't cut it. That's just bad design.
Two things: 1) I see this bad design all the
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Oh, shit .. my first thought wast they meant Microsoft Windows.
What idiot thinks people are going to want to spend any time in a friggin car (self driving or not) without any damned windows?
Congratulations, Peter Wayner ... that's one of the dumbest things I've heard in weeks.
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I would find it detrimental to not have windows for one reason alone, being able to see THRU cars. Think about driving behind a large truck/van/other large vehicle that you cant see past. Thing of how hard it is to know whats directly in front of you beyond that other car. Then, think about when youre pulling out a parking lot where you need to see past the car next to you to gauge the traffic coming from that direction. If youre in a smaller car, you need to inch up to see over their hood, with windowl
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No windows is a stupid idea, but just to be clear - the best you can hope for is crash resistant.
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No windows is a stupid idea, but just to be clear - the best you can hope for is crash resistant.
"Stupid" is an understatement.
"Just to be clear" is a pun.
Re:carsickness (Score:5, Insightful)
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Trying to use that to compensate for motion sickness is a terrible idea. Unless the video is perfectly in sync with the passengers' inner ear (i.e., unless there is zero processing delay) it'll actually make their motion sickness worse instead of better.
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There will be monitors that can display what's passing by the vehicle outside. The point is, without windows, the structural integrity of the car is increased a whole order of magnitude. We could make crash proof boxes for the passengers.
I don't think it's window failure that kills people in a crash, it's the delta-V of being slowed so suddenly -- the windshield is probably stronger than the lightweight sheet metal that would replace it. Replacing lass with metal might help make a car maginally safer, but I wouldn't expect it to dramatically increase survivability of a crash -- turning the seats around to face backwards would probably contribute far more to survivability (though I doubt that will happen, people don't like to travel backward
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I'll tell you what. We'll lock you in a box with no *real* outside view, but a camera view.
We may or may not make the monitors fail. We may or may not put you into a car crash.
You tell us how you feel about the experience.
I simply think people will flat out refuse to get into the damned things. I know for a fact I would.
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Wow, that just reminded me of a needed use for windows...when driving drunks home, you often need a way for them to barf OUT of the car while on the road.
Gun ports (Score:5, Funny)
I don't need windows - just gun ports.
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Why? just a nice big automated turret.
Belt fed twin 40mm high rate of fire grenade launchers that are computer controlled so that all you do it highlight the target and press fire and it does the rest.
Although I prefer this .... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C... [wikipedia.org]
Set to automatic and forget about tailgaters or idiots trying to brake check.
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Okay, wait a second!
Here we have all these people saying that they wouldn't trust an automated car but they're fine with automated turrets? What happens when that asshole in the left lane takes out your turret? Then you got nothin'!
I agree. You need gunports--at least a backup.
Linux would be better (Score:5, Funny)
I would say that linux would be a superior choice to windows for a car. Less re-starting.
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I don't know. I think I'd like to be able to watch a DVD while I'm in the car.
Re:Linux would be better (Score:5, Funny)
If we're resurrecting dead jokes, it should be noted that the Linux cars never had any good drivers in the first place.
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'but but but i drive better with wine!!!'
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..... Less re-starting.
And less crashing as well.
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In all seriousness, do you ask those questions when you board a plane?
No... (Score:2)
Windows is something no car should have. What happens if there's a critical system update while you're driving or else a blue screen of death? And do I need 3 more tires to upgrade between versions? ...but I'm not sure everyone will understand. Is there a good car analogy?
Yes. (Score:5, Insightful)
Passengers in cars will want the option of looking out. One can even argue that scenic drives with an autonomous car would be much safer because there's no driver to split his attention between the view and the act of operating the vehicle.
Re:Yes. (Score:4, Informative)
The passengers in a plane do not need windows but clearly because planes have windows at considerable cost to design properly (remember the Dehavilland Comet?) there's clearly a want for them to be there.
Windowless planes [mshcdn.com] are coming. And they will be awesome.
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The passengers in a plane do not need windows but clearly because planes have windows at considerable cost to design properly (remember the Dehavilland Comet?) there's clearly a want for them to be there.
That was my thought. Just install windows with shades that the occupants can pull down if needed. Cars seems to get by well structurally with windows already anyway, why bother redesigning them? With shades if they want to sleep they can sleep, look out the windows if they want to, or have some privacy for any, uh, "other activities" the occupants may want to partake in. Plus, windows are good escape routes if there is an accident that is preventing the doors from opening.
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Cars seems to get by well structurally with windows already anyway, why bother redesigning them?
Really? [nytimes.com] Imagine how much safer a car with a windowless unibody passenger compartment would be.
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Cars seems to get by well structurally with windows already anyway, why bother redesigning them?
Really? [nytimes.com] Imagine how much safer a car with a windowless unibody passenger compartment would be.
And in an accident like that where the doors are jammed shut due to damage, how exactly are the passengers supposed to extricate themselves from the wrecked vehicle?
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And in an accident like that where the doors are jammed shut due to damage, how exactly are the passengers supposed to extricate themselves from the wrecked vehicle?
Or how would the ones who witness the accident know whether there are passengers to rescue or not?
Would you break open the boot of a car on the off-chance that there's someone lying in there?
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The passengers in a plane do not need windows but clearly because planes have windows at considerable cost to design properly (remember the Dehavilland Comet?) there's clearly a want for them to be there.
If I remember correctly, the Comet windows were designed properly (though they turned out to have less safety margin than intended), but they weren't installed properly. And I believe the window that failed was the one used for navigation fixes, which would have been hard to live without in the days before GPS.
Re:Yes. (Score:5, Informative)
The passengers in a plane do not need windows but clearly because planes have windows at considerable cost to design properly (remember the Dehavilland Comet?) there's clearly a want for them to be there.
If I remember correctly, the Comet windows were designed properly (though they turned out to have less safety margin than intended), but they weren't installed properly. And I believe the window that failed was the one used for navigation fixes, which would have been hard to live without in the days before GPS.
The DH-106 Comet had square windows. The resulting point at each corner was a stress concentrator, and as the skin expanded and contracted during normal flights metal fatigue started. A year into service, the metal fatigue reached a point where the skin failed catastrophically and the aircraft came apart in mid-flight.
Installation of the windows was a factor, true, but the square windows was the primary point of failure.
Re:Yes. (Score:4, Informative)
Installation of the windows was a factor, true, but the square windows was the primary point of failure.
The corners had higher stress than expected, which is why they were redesigned once they discovered the problem. But the cracks started from rivet holes, where the windows were incorrectly installed; AFAIR the design specified different rivets, and glue as a backup, and would probably have at least survived long enough for an engineer to notice any cracks during normal inspections, if they'd been installed that way.
Re:Yes. (Score:4, Informative)
It wasn't the passenger windows that were the issue, it was a radio antenna window, and the failure was because the window was supposed to be glued in but they used rivets instead, and the fractures started at the rivet holes.
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because planes have windows at considerable cost to design properly
It didn't occur to me until I read your comment, but at this point wouldn't a an LCD screen be better than an actual window? No window means structurally more sound. And 1080p would be better than the fogged/scratched up windows that planes have now. Quick, to the patent office.
Back seats have windows in the door (Score:2)
But we still have them there.
Conclusion: cars will continue to have windows.
Real question - will the cameras in a driver-less car store their images and will those images be retrievable
Re:Back seats have windows in the door (Score:5, Insightful)
Technically, the driver of a car never uses the windows in the door of the back seats.
I really don't want to be on the same road as you when you change lanes on the non-driving side...
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Technically, the driver of a car never uses the windows in the door of the back seats.
I don't know about you, but I look through them when checking my blind spots during lane changes.
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Technically, the driver of a car never uses the windows in the door of the back seats.
You might need to take a driver safety refresher course.
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If your side view mirrors are adjusted correctly, you don't have blind spots.
Home from home (Score:2)
Don't be silly (Score:2)
A for effort, but no (Score:3)
Simple answer (Score:2)
Don't we have windows for passengers? I am sure autonomous cars will have passengers, right? Many magazines have filler articles to fill the space for publication and this seems like one. Even airplanes have windows where there is only thin air outside.
flat screen monitors (Score:2)
High performance flat screen monitors with inertial sync'd real-time videos flying at light speed through the cosmos being chased by Vulture Droids... I will be looking forward to my compute.
Why are we asking this... (Score:4, Insightful)
...when we are not ready to mitigate every single scenario in which a human driver would need to take over and drive in an emergency?
I mean seriously, we're not even close to answering that. Therefore, humans will still need things like windows and mirrors.
Accidents (Score:2)
Consider airplanes and buses (Score:2)
Yes, the pilot/driver needs to see outside but none of the passengers need to see outside. And yet they always have windows because people like to look outside.
Why would a driverless car be any different?
Next issue.
airplanes have windows (Score:5, Insightful)
Airliners only need one set of windows at the front, for the pilots. But there's a row of windows on either side, and the seats next to those windows are the second-most-popular (after those on the aisle) despite the fact that they're the most difficult to get in and out of, have no access to the overhead bins, and offer less head/foot room. See also: trains, buses, passenger ferries. So I think the answer is yes: robot cars will still have windows.
Spectrum Pursuit Vehicle (Score:3)
Captain Scarlet had it right .. not only did the Spectrum Pursuit Vehicle [wikipedia.org] not have any windows, the occupants had rearward facing seats to better protect them in the case of a crash, and they used video monitors to view where they were driving.
Dumbest question I'll see all day. (Score:2)
If there's no driver, will the passengers want to look outside?
What an asinine question. You don't need windows on buildings but they have them because PEOPLE WANT TO SEE OUTSIDE!!! And buildings don't even move. They added a window to the freaking Mercury capsules to get a better view. Yes there will be windows on automated vehicles.
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
No, no, the purpose of advancing technology is total isolation from the natural world. The natural world is icky and uncomfortable. Glass just isn't enough of a barrier.
Quick Answer (Score:3)
Yes. Next question.
The windows need to stay (Score:2)
A self-driving car will still need windows in case the human driver ever needs to take over. But the windows could certainly have privacy shades. Other things we'd no longer need for robot cars are street signs, stop lights, and lane markers. You might argue that we'd need to keep those things for the people choosing to drive themselves but my question would be how long should the rest of us finance billions in infrastructure for a diminishing number of holdouts?
That's why I think self-driving cars are go
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A self-driving car will still need windows in case the human driver ever needs to take over. But the windows could certainly have privacy shades. Other things we'd no longer need for robot cars are street signs, stop lights, and lane markers. You might argue that we'd need to keep those things for the people choosing to drive themselves but my question would be how long should the rest of us finance billions in infrastructure for a diminishing number of holdouts?
Either the infrastructure will need to allow for fallback to human control or not, but it can't be both ways -- you can't expect a human who has let his car drive him around for years to find his way home without street signs, or drive safely without traffic control devices. So if you want to allow for human control, you'll need to provide street signs and traffic signals.
Seating arrangements (Score:4, Insightful)
I like the seats on the cross-country trains (VIA up here in Canada). They have pairs of seats that can swivel, to make them face another pair of seats. A fold out table creates a nice surface for a nice game of cards, or whatever you fancy. You could even have meetings while driving to a destination. So many possibilities when you don't have to stare at the back of someone's head!
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I would love to see this in a self-driving car for long family road-trips. Three hour car ride? Set your destination, turn your seats around, grab a tabletop game (Pandemic, Munchkin, Catan, etc) and play a few games while the car drives you to your destination. Of course, some games might need travel versions to keep the pieces on the playing board. For example, Catan might be difficult if every bump the car hit caused your pieces to go flying. Still, this could make long road trips more fun for the e
Airplanes and ships have them (Score:2)
Airplanes and cruise ships don't *need* windows, yet they are installed at great expense. It'd be a lot easier to build an airliner without having to cut a hundred holes in the fuselage then cover and seal the holes with windows.... yet no one wants to fly in a windowless tube, just like no one will want to ride in a windowless car -- LCD panels and cameras aren't quite the same as a live view through a window.
I am from the future. They do not have windows. (Score:2)
.
Yes (Score:3)
Yes, they do.
An early example of getting it wrong was the City & South London Railway, the first deep-level underground rail line in London. The designers of the rolling stock didn't bother with windows because there was, supposedly, nothing to see. Passengers hated the "padded cells". Even if all you see is tunnel walls rushing by, people need to see outside.
I could see the utility of an airliner with no windows but cameras and viewing screens - it would solve some engineering problems - but for a car, the simplest is still the best. Windows.
...laura
Really? (Score:4, Insightful)
The Atlantic has an article asking whether autonomous cars need windows....
There are windows on space capsules.
There are windows on railroad passenger cars.
There are windows in houses.
.
My guess is that people, in general, like to look outside.
What is the purpose? (Score:2)
Passengerless vehicles? (Score:2)
Presets exchange for Windows? (Score:2)
If we get rid of the windows, can I get 2 more FM presets and 8 more XM presets? Maybe I don't need radio at all if I am not driving. I can just watch Cinemax if there are no windows.
I am pretty sure they will run on Linux (Score:2)
But you can always install windows on them if that is what you want.
Emergency Exit (Score:2)
Does your house need them? (Score:2)
No, but who would want to live in it. Why would you want to drive around in a coffin.
Privacy (Score:3)
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I've heard of a Windows OS that can block 90% of usefulness of hardware ;-)
Re: Fewer Windows (Score:2, Interesting)
In an ideal system, robotic cars will not break traffic laws and fewer traffic stops will be needed. And if falsely accused, the vehicle's logs should provide a staunch defense.
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Anyone else sick of driving a REAL car and NOT being able to see around super-oversized SUVs at a safe following distance?
I'm sick of driving a REAL car and NOT being able to see around your Corolla.
REAL cars have the engine in the middle, where Newton intended, and are as low as possible to reduce drag.