Windows 10's Automatic Updates For NVidia Drivers Causing Trouble 317
Mark Wilson writes: One of the features that has been removed from Windows 10 — at least for home users — is the ability to pick and choose when updates are installed. Microsoft has taken Windows Update out of the hands of users so the process is, for the most part, completely automated. In theory, this sounds great — no more worrying about having the latest patches installed, no more concerns that a machine that hasn't been updated will cause problems for others — but an issue with NVidia drivers shows that there is potential for things to go wrong. Irate owners of NVidia graphics cards have taken to support forums to complain that automatically-installed drivers installed have broken their computers.
I've had issues with the Win10 NVIDIA drivers... (Score:4, Insightful)
Usually the problem is something like, "it isn't giving me the newest driver" or simply the poor quality of the drivers in the first place. (For awhile there, if I clicked on the start button, it would cause my screen to reset!) And a lot of "your driver stopped responding so we turned it off, then back on again."
In some ways, I like that the drivers are being pushed to me automatically, but at the same time, if I'm doing multiple reinstalls in a single day, I've already downloaded the drivers... I don't need them to be downloaded YET AGAIN, every install...
Re:I've had issues with the Win10 NVIDIA drivers.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Always going to the most recent Nvidia drivers has been a risky proposition for years, on Win 7, Vista, XP etc.
Nvidia put out a lot of driver updates tied specifically to newly released high-profile games. In some cases, performance in those games will be pretty shocking if you don't move straight to the latest drivers. The PC release of GTA5 (in most respects a solid release) is one example. Sometimes, the drivers are fine. More often, they cause issues with a range of older applications and games. One recent driver update caused massive issues with .mkv playback, for instance (though a workaround was discovered fairly quickly).
The sensible thing to do is to upgrade your drivers only every few months and only move to versions that are generally recognized as stable and whose known issues have well-tested workarounds. Automatically moving to the latest version is a mug's game.
Sometimes the whole thing goes amusingly wrong. When id Software released Rage, it had horrible texture pop-in issues on most PCs with Nvidia cards. Why? Because id had expected Nvidia to put out a particular driver update in time for launch and Nvidia had gone with a different one instead.
Re:I've had issues with the Win10 NVIDIA drivers.. (Score:4, Informative)
I have a GTX 560 ti, and a couple of years ago, Nvideo released a driver that hosed that particular card with occasional lockups and general meltdowns. Hardware acceleration in Firefox, for instance, would cause the driver to glitch badly enough to require a reboot. Although Nvidia eventually did track it down and fix it, it took quite a few months to do so. I had to monitor their user forums to wait for a fix, and only then could I safely patch once it was confirmed by testers.
My computer would have been near unusable had the latest updates been forced on me. Microsoft really needs to rethink this. Patching automatically works fine as a default for home users, but there HAS to be a way to defer, roll-back, or opt-out of specific patches - especially anything that isn't security-related, like drivers. Patching an entire OS is not as simple as patching a browser. You know they're looking at the Chrome model here, which was actually somewhat controversial when it launched. This is a "we know what's best for you, so you don't have a choice anymore" model, and while it will be fine for *most* people, we've already seen that it can cause problems for *some*.
Re:I've had issues with the Win10 NVIDIA drivers.. (Score:4, Informative)
Note: I saw an AC mention you could turn off automatic downloading of drivers, so I checked it out. Keep in mind my Windows 10 version is out of date, though. so the RTM may be different.
Go to Control Panel -> System, then click on "Change Settings"
Under the Hardware tab, you can click on a button called "Device Installation Settings"
You're then asked "Do you want Windows to download driver software and realistic icons for your devices?
* Yes (recommended)
* No
Unless this changes for launch, it looks like people will have a way to opt out of automatic driver updates, so that's a good thing. Still, damn... they really buried that setting deep.
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Yeah, it's usually been a bad idea to let Windows update it's own drivers. They have a bad habit of downgrading things like Video drivers with older "Microsoft Certified" versions, and break/remove a bunch of features in the process.
Almost every other Windows version treats driver downloads as "optional" so they aren't automatically installed even if Automatic updates are on. Has this changed with Windows 10?
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It appears there's no notion of "optional" updates anymore, at least for the consumer version of Windows. Instead, as I mentioned, there's a checkbox buried deep in system settings to prevent drivers from getting upgraded. Also, there's a separate checkbox on the Windows Update settings page to determine if you'd like Microsoft applications to automatically be updated. I'd guess this would control whether things like Office are updated automatically as well.
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It appears there's no notion of "optional" updates anymore
there's a checkbox buried deep in system settings to prevent drivers from getting upgraded
?
Re:I've had issues with the Win10 NVIDIA drivers.. (Score:4, Informative)
Not sure why the question mark. What don't you understand?
The category of "optional" updates has gone away, and is instead replaced with the ability to disable driver or application downloads. This is roughly the same in practice, but is slightly less flexible.
The disadvantage with the new mechanism is that you can't pick and choose among the "optional" updates. Say you wanted to update your audio and mouse drivers, but not your video drivers (since you prefer to update them using Nvidia's app to do so).
The advantage of the new system is that you can choose to automatically update what used to be an optional update, and those had to be manually applied, if I remember correctly. Some people may also prefer to have both their drivers and applications automatically updated. It's a bit friendlier for typical users at the expense of the power-users.
I'd like to see that "driver downloads" setting moved to the main Windows Update settings page, where people are more likely to find it.
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Well, whatever they want to label it as now it's still optional.
The reason it's probably buried is to keep your average person poking around and messing with things that they don't understand. I think the automatic update changes will be a good thing for most people while those of us who know how will still be able to stop them.
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Re:I've had issues with the Win10 NVIDIA drivers.. (Score:5, Informative)
Well, shit. Someone else informed me that the option to disable updating of drivers is ONLY when you insert new hardware. So, you typically wouldn't want to disable this.
It looks like this may still be an issue then. Damn, that's a really misleading setting name. Sorry for the misinformation.
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Drivers can be related to security; even graphics ones. Usual bullshit like sending specially crafted/malformed data to then execute something arbitrary can possibly happen.
A better answer would be "LTS drivers" that receive security updates (and some compatibility updates) and that does exist, but it's the legacy drivers. e.g. 30x.xx for geforce 6/7 hardware.
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I turned off automatically updating of NVIDIA drivers after I found out it broke either DDC or EDID. Whichever it broke it caused Windows to default to a screen resolution / refresh / something much larger than the screen was capable of. Took a while to diagnose boot into safe mode and roll back the driver. Trying to figure out what's wrong with a computer when the screen doesn't come always results in a bad day.
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Before people come after me, No, I don't use Linux at home or in the work place. I work as a Windows SA.
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And a lot of "your driver stopped responding so we turned it off, then back on again."
That's the infamous nvidia TDR problem, and has been plaguing their drivers and cards since the very early R.208.xx series drivers. Said TDR problem has been so bad that ~4 years ago they were paying to ship PC's to California [bluesnews.com] for testing to determine the cause of it. It's been on-going since 2008 [geforce.com] and they haven't fixed it, or have been working on 'trying to fix it' since then.
The last time nvidia fixed it in mid 2011, it was due to the cards throttling the core voltage down to control the amount of heat
Potential, or likelihood? (Score:5, Insightful)
...but an issue with NVidia drivers shows that there is potential for things to go wrong....
Given Microsoft's history of buggy Windows Update patches these past few months, I'd proffer that there is more than just a potential for things to go wrong. There is a likelihood that things will go wrong.
.
Microsoft really needs to up its game regarding the quality of the patches it is foisting upon the world.
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I surely don't know what you mean!
/glances at KB3079904, which was installed the other day to replace a different update that they got wrong just days earlier, and notes that this is what happened even with patching a serious security vulnerability
Root Cause Analysis report - Greed, Evil (Score:2)
Question: Who owns the device drivers for hardware?
In the Linux world, the h/w vendor publishes specs, or conforms to standards, so the kernel guys write drivers and merge it. The distributors like RedHat keep sending updated drivers.
In the Windows World, Microsoft seems to have deep distrust of h/w vendors, despite not making any hardware by themselves. MS does not enjoy any h/w vendor having control of the OS internals, but such control is essential for the h/w to work.
If MS published interface or device
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Weren't most (all?) of those layoffs done at Nokia?
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I don't know about anybody else, but that came for me over eight years ago. This is strictly a Linux household, and the only time I ever run under Windows is at a private social club I belong to where they have some Windows boxes for gaming. I used to be a Windows-internals geek back when I did tech support. Now, if one of those gaming boxes has problems I ask somebody else for help because I've happily forgotten all of that.
Ahead of the curve (Score:5, Interesting)
This is exactly the sort of thing everyone predicted would happen with enforced automatic updating. It is exactly the sort of reason people argued against taking control out of users hands. I just didn't expect we'd see an example of it before Windows 10 was actually released though. For once Microsoft has proven itself to be ahead of the curve. Yay?
While Microsoft Update has generally been something good for Windows (and the Internet) by reducing the number of vulnerable machines, it has not been without its share of programs. There are countless stories of Update pushing bad patches and drivers, and quality-control at Microsoft has apparently taken a turn for the worse in the last couple of years. Nobody is arguing that Microsoft should stop pushing patches or even that the default - especially for home users - should be to automatically download and install the patches. But by removing the user's ability to ultimately accept or decline these patches benefits nobody.
But I guess Microsoft wasn't satisfied with just having a reputation for producing shoddy products that don't work as intended; now they seem to be working towards earning the reputation for creating a product that intentionally goes out of its way to break itself.
Re:Ahead of the curve (Score:4, Insightful)
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It actually is an option (buried deep in system settings) to disable driver auto-updates. I was beta-testing Windows 10 and I didn't even realize this was possible until someone mentioned it in this discussion today.
Changing this setting to OFF is going to be the very first thing that power-users do with Windows 10. See my post above for details.
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If you're talking about the comment the AC made above:
"Control Panel -> System -> Hardware tab -> Device Installation Settings -> Never install driver software from Windows Update"
That controls action for when you insert new hardware. Precisely the opposite action of what you want to happen.
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Ah, I see. Well, that makes a little more sense as to why it's buried in the options down there. Then Microsoft needs to add a checkbox to disable automatic driver updates then, similar to the way you can opt out of automatic application updates.
Doh. At times like these I wish I could edit my posts (or at least append new info to them), when I'm flat out incorrect.
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That didn't take long (Score:2)
This is why the forced automatic updates are a horrible idea: one bad update adversely affects many machines automatically.
I wonder how many times this will happen before MS once again allows home users to choose how and when to update.
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Not having updates is suicide if you check your bank account or pay bills online! Damned if you do damned if you don't. I only had one problem luckily since Vista with an update.
MS needs to rehire their QA team they fired back before they certify a WHQL for update.
That's the usual BS going on these days (Score:5, Insightful)
disenfranchising users and using them as exploitable cannon fodder to be sucked on!
Who owns and controls my computer?
Some dork in a far away country living out his/her power trips or is it the insatiable, money greedy, total out of touch, higher-upper robot-C?O acting in delusion what needs to be done.
For chrissake, if you want to do anything on the hardware and software I paid for, kindly ask me and give me a choice.
Run fiddler on startup and see who has his dirty fingers in the box in your room.
Is this just a bad dream and when will it be over?
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Is this just a bad dream and when will it be over?
When you buy software designed for IT professionals rather than Mom and Pop "Home" users.
Both nvida and ATI suck (Score:2, Informative)
And FYI they install automatically too on 7 and 8.1.
I only use the drivers from Windows update as the ones from ATI or NVidia are always buggy. Sounds like a bad time to fire the QA team and only focus on usage scenarios and feedback.
I personally will avoid 10 until redstone or the update after comes out ..,. and will use the professional edition.
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Hell, I'm still having problems in 8 (Score:2)
I disabled the update that nags me to install Windows 10. No way, I have a laptop that is certified to run under 8, and I'll be damned if I'm going to spend even one minute in driver hell. I uninstalled the update, and I think I told Windows Update not to install it again. I hid it, or something...I don't really remember. I applied some kind of solution I found from a message board. But whoops, there it is again after a recent reboot. It also demanded I activate Windows again after boot, which I've al
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Windows 10? (Score:2)
Wasn't Win10 the system where you can't turn off updates? Now, how does that work out for you?
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Wasn't Win10 the system where you can't turn off updates?
Err, yes. As the first line of the summary points out.
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These directions have nothing to do with controlling updating of device drivers through Windows Update. It clearly says "Device installation" as in it only controls as to what to do when a new device is detected and software needs to be installed in order for new devices to function.
As of right now there is no known way for regular Windows users, even on Professional edition, to pick and choose which new software/driver updates to install or ignore. This greatly concerns me as Microsoft is known to distribu
Not Just Win10.. (Score:5, Informative)
I normally spend my time on my computers in the company of a Linux distribution, but since I'm a retired "Windows Janitor", I get bugged a lot to "take a look" at friends/neighbors machines. Since the last version of Windows I spent any great amount of time with was XP, I figured I'd better see what all the hoopla was about Windows 8/8.1. I came into a retail copy of 8.1 instead of $$$ for some work I did on a neighbors system, so I figured I'd grab a spare laptop drive and install it so I could get familiar with it, so as not to come off as derpy when the inevitable calls on 8.1/10 start hitting my phone. The install was as smooth as silk, and the system looked/worked fine, after installing the MANDATORY ClassicShell. The inevitable WU notification came and told me I had 100+ updates, so I turned it loose to do its thing.. Once the updates installed, and a reboot, I logged into the system and KABLOOOIE.. right after login, one of the new-style BSOD's telling me there was a video_tdr_failure in one of the pieces of the Nvidia driver that WU forced down my systems throat.. After some googling to find that MS, in its infinite wisdom, had changed the old "F8" to get to safemode, I managed to figure it out and installed the latest/greatest from the Nvidia website, which made the Quadro FX770M in my system happy... Now I hear that MS, once again, in its infinite wisdom, is gonna take away the capability of permanently skipping crap updates in Windows 10, I'm getting close to the point of heading back to Linux, and telling friends that "if you want my help, you get rid of Windows and use Linux"....
How does it "sound great in theory"? (Score:3)
It sounds awful. Automatic updates sounds great, because it's a default. And you can turn it off. Windows 10 moves heaven and earth to remove the parts that let you turn it off. How does that sound great to anyone, at any point, ever?
Drivers have always been iffy on windows update (Score:2)
Drivers have always been iffy on windows update.
Some times they try to install older ones on top of newer ones / try to install basic ones that lack CCC for AMD or the NVIDIA tools.
Try to install non working ones for some Intel nic cards.
Why make drivers forced ones? In the past some where auto picked and others where not.
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store credit for what games not on steam? games that have to have mod's and other stuff turned off due to MS store rules?
updates PITA (Score:2)
OS X and iOS constantly nag users to update system software and user apps. Sometimes an app is really improved, but far more often the update includes adware and other crap. There's no way to know because those 'enhancements' are not mentioned when you are asked to update. It's best to look around for other users who updated and reported on the result--if you have lots of time on your hands...
Update Clashes (Score:5, Informative)
Irate owners of NVidia graphics cards have taken to support forums to complain that automatically-installed drivers installed have broken their computers.
That would be 17 posters on the NVIDA GeForce drivers forum. Windows 10 Display Driver Feedback Thread [geforce.com]
Interestingly the problem has also been experienced by Forbes contributor Paul Monckton who has done some digging and explained to me that the fault lies in a conflict between Windows Update and Nvidia's own driver and software management tool the 'Nvidia GeForce Experience'.
Many PC components and peripherals come with bundled software that automatically manages driver updates already. PC makers also often bolt on driver update management software onto their PCs (Lenovo is a notable example) which then has the potential to conflict with driver updates delivered by Windows Update.
''It looks like driver version 353.54 [the latest at time of writing] is available only via Window Update,'' Monckton told me. ''The problem is the Nvidia GeForce Experience then tried to downgrade that to the previous version while claiming the previous version was actually newer.''
The problem is compounded by the fact that Windows Update doesn't actually reveal driver version numbers prior to install or warn the user in advance so pinpointing something that has suddenly caused problems can be hard to identify.
Given Windows 10 updates cannot be stopped the most obvious solution is to uninstall third party driver management and hand it all over to Windows Update to avoid clashes. This potentially simplifies matters by providing an all-in-one update service, but it does mean taking away control from specialist companies over their own products.
Windows 10 Automatic Updates Start Causing Problems [forbes.com]
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the most obvious solution is to uninstall third party driver management and hand it all over to Windows Update to avoid clashes.
This is neither obvious nor desirable, never a solution. Windows is an OS written by Microsoft. Generally, Microsoft makes no hardware, yet, the OS runs on hardware.
So the obvious solution is for MS to publish and adhere to standards for device drivers interfacing and integrating with the OS, and keep shut. Otherwise, Microsoft should be the sole mfr. of all hardware that is sup
Linus was right? (Score:2)
Mesa/nouveau are released under an MIT license. Any time MS want to hire their core developers, the option is there.
Fuck that ... (Score:2)
Look, I simply do not trust Microsoft to force updates on their timetable and without user consent.
They've had far too many incidents of demonstrating they absolutely suck at doing it, and there's far too many configurations of machines for this to work without leaving a wake of crap behind it.
Sorry, but this is just more Microsoft thinking they know what is best, being assholes about, and being fucking wrong about it.
If Microsoft is going with a model of "it's our computer and we'll break it if we want to"
Hang on to your hats folks (Score:2)
Also, remember - sharing your wireless connection with the world is awesome
"NO" to Any Automatic Updates (Score:3)
Currently running Windows 7, I allow Microsoft to notify me about updates; but I block them from downloading or installing. But that is how I handle all software. The only automatic updates that I allow are virus definitions for my anti-virus application, and updates to that application itself are also blocked until I am ready to download and install them.
For Microsoft updates, I wait at least a week after they are released. I read news reports and the alt.windows7.general newsgroup to see what others have experienced with those updates. I try to read Microsoft's "details" about its updates, but those are generally so vague that I cannot tell whether an update benefits me or benefits Microsoft. I reject any Microsoft updates for applications that I never use (e.g., Outlook, Silverlight) and any updates that facilitate installing Windows 10. I also reject Microsoft updates for non-Microsoft products. (Because I bought Acronis True Image, I get notices about updates directly from Acronis. I rejected Microsoft's recently released Acronis updates.)
In all cases, I want to delay any updates to any software on my PC until I know the process will not interfere with other tasks to which I have assigned a higher priority. Microsoft might release its updates on its own schedule, but I will install them on my own schedule.
All this means I certainly will not be updating Windows 7 to Windows 10. Another reason is that I have applications that run on Windows 7 -- some that I originally ran with Windows 95 -- that (1) are no longer being developed or even available but still serve my purposes and (2) Microsoft admits will not run with Windows 10.
Windows 10 (or even a later Windows) might be in my future only when I need a new application that will not run on any earlier version of Windows. Given that I am already 74 years old, my Windows 7 configuration might last longer than I will.
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By the way, Microsoft does own the Windows and Office software on my PC. Thus, Microsoft might have the right to alter that software. But Acronis owns the Acronis True Image application; I am not sure what permissions Microsoft has from Acronis for altering that application. Did Microsoft have permission to alter NVida's driver?
In any case, I own my PC. It did not come from Microsoft. And I have the right to control what signals enter it, including electronic transmissions of software updates. I will
Is this why I don't get the Windows 10 update icon (Score:2)
Like many who have posted above, I have disabled auto updates on both these Win 7 computers and wait for a week to find out if ther
I'm glad this is happening. (Score:3)
Seeing users having issues with broken drivers may cause Microsoft to reconsider and allow more control over updates.
More KB2956128 than you can handle (Score:4, Interesting)
Microsoft has had some really bad track records with patches as of late. They've trashed Outlook 2010 no less than four times this year, it's gotten so bad we've had to disable updates company wide. I actually had one use request a downgrade to Office 2007 since Microsoft didn't seem to break that one. After the third mass break this year it's gotten to the point that I outright ban any patch labeled Outlook when I update a system with 2010 on it.
Come on Microsoft, I didn't have a huge amount of trust in you to begin with. Publicly address this chain of fail and promise you'll cut it out to restore some faith.
Updates (Score:3)
Automatic updates are fine in principle.
But every update breaks 1% of the things it hits. It's as simple as that.
For home users, that wasn't a problem, because they have one machine so might survive hundreds of updates before anything goes wrong.
On networks, it's a damn nightmare. Even with homogenous environments, you're looking at one thing broken every update, or thereabouts.
The problem with forcing auto-updates is that it doesn't solve the reasons people turn auto-updates off. The main reason? People have suffered breakage like this of previously perfectly working systems. And to the point they get BSODs or complete failures to boot, not just "oh, something's slightly slower or they moved an icon around".
To a professional environment, it's a 10-minute re-image. To a home user, it's days without the machine while they pay someone to look at it, who does two seconds work and charges a fortune, for something that they aren't likely to understand (and if they tried it themselves, might well end up breaking more than they fix).
It's the wrong way round.
I get that you want to keep thing secure, but breaking graphics drivers for EVERYONE isn't the solution there. In fact, more of a risk is some virus getting on the machine and crippling auto-update anyway. I see that as the only way for the virus to survive any length of time - if it allows random patching then it's entry method will fix itself.
So, auto-patching by default doesn't solve the problem there - malware will still stop them happening and so persist security risks. But users who are following all the guidelines are getting BSOD's and crashes and unbootable computers because of the quality of the updates, not to mention the junk shoved into them (malware scanners, adverts for the next version of Windows, etc.). That's just backwards.
The one thing that annoys me about any software is lack of choice. Why CAN'T I have the old start menu back if I want? It's really not that difficult to supply it as an option. I will go out of my way to reintroduce those options if necessary. I don't care what you want as the default, I care about being able to select MY CHOICE.
And that's what they are planning with Windows 10 updates - removing the choice such that you can't stop a known-bad update propagating to your machine unless you spend lots more money on enterprise-level versions of the OS and dedicate a server to the task. Given the number of bad updates pushed out in just the last year, it's a disaster waiting to happen.
I can, and will, find the option to disable it, just because you MADE me do so. If you'd just put the option as default (like it's always been) but allowed me to disable, I could at least say "Woah, there's a dodgy update for Windows 10 making the news - I will stop it until I'm sure MS has fixed the problem". The alternative is really VM'ing it and rolling back - and if I'm going to have to do that, fuck Windows, basically.
It's a nice sentiment, but MS has proved that it can't be trusted to not put tons of junk into "critical security updates" which it doesn't label properly (and puts in adverts for Windows 10 that you then struggle to rid yourself of into such updates). As such, I can't leave them to make the decision as to what's critical for security and should be forced to my machine, and what's not.
And if an nVidia driver - whether or not it can be fixed by a clean install - might just one day get forcibly updated and cock up a machine, that's not something I want to have on a games machine which has only the barest of connections to the net behind a firewall. It really doesn't need all the latest Windows Updates if all it is is a games machine with, say, Steam, and doesn't download third-party shit and just plays games and goes out on a handful of high-numbered gaming ports. Especially if the risk is some random nVidia driver being shoved onto the machine and breaking it (hell, some drivers for nVidia will ramp up the temperatures etc. on you
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uhh, MICROSOFT is the one that is vetting the windows update-released drivers through WHQL program, so THEY are just as much 'at fault' as nvidia is.
the problem IS the forced automatic updates. until that is reverted back to previous scheme (automatic/download-then-notify/notify-then-download/off) this problem WILL REMAIN, and not just for nvidia drivers, but ANY driver, and ANY update for windows itself.
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Re:NVidea's problem, not Microsoft's (Score:5, Insightful)
Um no, Windows should roll back to the working driver when the new one breaks, especially after 25 years of working on this kind of stuff! Anything that brings down the OS is the OS's fault.
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If Windows won't roll back to a working install, it kind of moots the point of taking recovery snapshots before installing updates, doesn't it?
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Why should someone pay uo to $160 to make their computer run as advertised? A system today is only worth $450 new and $160 premium for a non AD joined computer is STUPID.
We use phones and they do not have these problems. No wonder people are switching to tablets. They just work. Sorry MS needs to rehire their QA they laid off (that is right no QA team just usage scenarios from the agile developers with stories)and need to make their product work as advertised. I thought a WHQL certified driver needed testin
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For those in the IT field we are used to leaving our systemd vulnerable due to a patch breaking production many many times as sad as that sentence is.
My coworker refuses to run update at all saying HP knows their shit more than MS so do not trust them etc. He had a virus of course and I laughed. But it makes us resistant to change.
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Whoops - "systemd" ?
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"If you're unhappy that NVidea didn't do it right the first time, complain to them..."
Complaints aren't retroactive; the point is to prevent it from happening in the first place. I'm sure you would agree that *no one* should be expected to have the time, resources and knowledge to fix their own car, if the company that made it came by in the middle of the night and made it undriveable.
"...or get a different video card."
Not everyone has those kinds of resources.
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If you're a pro, get a pro version and run your own WSUS server on a VM.
Or stick with an OS that works without needing to develop a whole new set of sysadmins skills, like... any previous version of Windows, say.
If you're unhappy that NVidea didn't do it right the first time, complain to them or get a different video card.
And what shall we do when AMD drivers have a problem at the same time?
Perhaps you'd like businesses that paying their staff thousands per week to do CAD work or design game assets to just shut down for a few days until the drivers get sorted out? As far as I'm aware, no-one has yet developed a business model where complaining at a big business that screwed up is an effe
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Perhaps you'd like businesses that paying their staff thousands per week to do CAD work or design game assets to just shut down for a few days until the drivers get sorted out?
Actually I would fire the IT staff in that business for installing Windows Home rather than Windows Pro which has the facilities you need to manage these updates.
There is no reason what so ever that this should affect any business user other than IT incompetence.
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Do you understand that at many small businesses there aren't any dedicated IT staff at all? And that even with Windows 10 Pro you can only defer updates for a while by effectively tracking a different branch, not actually block them if they interfere with your work and you don't want them? This isn't just a concern with the Home edition.
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I feel your pain. :-)
Actually, the most recent system-crippling screw-up I had was installing the latest AMD drivers for a FirePro series card on one of our older machines. You know, the ones where you pay a fortune to have roughly the same hardware as a much cheaper gaming card, because of the quality and capabilities of the drivers? Except that this completely routine update, which we were hoping might finally fix the frequency glitches that have plagued the card from day one, took out the whole machine a
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(a) No-one is talking about just Home. This affects Pro as well, which is what most power users and small businesses have.
(b) You choose your OS because of the software you need to run. Across my various businesses, the number of areas where the software available on Windows is significantly better than the alternatives available on other platforms is quite large.
The most promising alternative platform would be OS X, which has the same kinds of server and development platforms available as Linux or BSD but
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how is it you haven't switched to Linux or BSD or OSX yet?
I have, with the exception of games and other programs that don't have Linux equivalents.
And if you are supporting family members then how come in the last 15 or so years you haven't switched them to Linux or BSD or OSX or Android or iOS for their personal computing?
Because they want to do things that they can't on non-Windows OSes, the problems I have with Windows don't bother them, and because I respect my family enough to not change their computers to suit me better while making them suit their purposes more poorly.
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No, they're probably using Pro, which has exactly the same fundamental problem just deferrable by a few months.
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In reality? No. However, it looks like we would have under the conditions we're talking about.
I've got glitching driver issues that have never been fixed on multiple machines I deal with, for example. Usually we just roll them back to whatever was installed initially, so it's not actually causing a critical problem today, but of course that's exactly the option we're concerned about losing.
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Where do all the people replying to me keep finding all these IT staff? A small CAD studio or indie game development shop of the kind I mentioned doesn't have a dedicated IT staff. It doesn't run a corporate network on Windows Enterprise managed by full-time professional sysadmins. A small business like that has a few people doing the creative work, a few people doing sales, and a couple of admin/accounts people. Probably one or two of those people double as the "IT dept" when it comes to setting up the off
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No sympathy eh? I think you and Windows 10 are gonna have an amusing and tempestuous relationship.
Re:Windows 10 isn't Out Yet (Score:4, Insightful)
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Good thing AMD never has such issues...
http://www.tomshardware.com/an... [tomshardware.com]
As a note: I don't even use the onboard AHCI/SATA controller, as I have a dedicated PCI-E SSD, and this still prevented Windows from booting.
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To be fair, it's out in three days. You'd kind of hope that these things would be nailed by now!
That's adorable. You must be new - to everything. :-)
It's RTM / Inevitable Disaster (Score:5, Interesting)
Yup. The current "preview" build, 10240, is the RTM build. For all intents and purposes, Windows 10 is in its final release form.
In any case, given the history of these things, it's inevitable that Microsoft is going to push out an automatic update that massively screws up millions of machines. At the point, the very next update they're going to push out is an update that disables automatic updates.
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If you want to defer your updates, get the Pro version.
But defer is the word, and they're still forced on you within a few months if you want to keep security updates, even if they are potentially hostile, non-security updates.
I'm not going to say I told everyone so. Oh, no, wait, I did [slashdot.org]. And so did a lot of other people. Shifting to Windows 10 is a one-way trip to losing control of your own computer, possibly unless you're on Enterprise, because presumably the people with real money won't let Microsoft get away with this.
Re: Windows 10 isn't Out Yet (Score:4, Insightful)
Yep. Your comment speaks to a typo in the story. It says the driver update broke their computers. When it should have said the update broke Microsoft's computers.
You don't own what you don't control.
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Even if:
(a) that is true in the final RTM, which we haven't seen yet,
(b) it remains true in light of future updates, which of course you'll be required to install, and
(c) the user is aware of the risk and turns it off, which apparently plenty of people clued up enough to be trying Win10 early weren't,
presumably that will still only protects you if it's a driver update that goes wrong, as opposed to say, a kernel patch, or a security update.
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game developers don't compile the good games for Linux, just buy them on PS4. PS4 *is* BSD just as Mac OSX *is* BSD.
Right, because Sony is a really great answer to Microsoft. Fuck Sony.
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If you have a PS4 you can live without Windows games too.
When any console supports KB/M for FPS, we can talk about not using a Windows system for gaming. Until that time, I'll be on my PC.
Also, the 3x MSDN keys I'm using for my system (gotten from an IT Teacher) are all getting upgraded to Win10 Pro N. Zero money give to M$.
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These people are complaining that their BETA software broke their drivers. Yes. Because it's BETA SOFTWARE.
Read TFM, what's out there now is RTM (so BYOG and FOAD).
In any case complaining about brain-dead behaviour in new Windows releases needs to start years in advance, with significant press coverage, for Microsoft to do anything. Look at their handling of WiFi connection administration, which was removed in Win8 nearly three years ago and still hasn't been reinstated. The WiFi issue seems a bit like the "we'll update your drivers for your automatically and you'll sit there and like it even if it bricks your
CSC (Score:2)
CSC manages our company's computers. They update just about every week, removing features, adding security, and breaking our software.
Automatic updates are stupid, ill advised and can bring down entire production systems.
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Switching to Windows 10 now from Windows 7 Ultimate seems like a downgrade rather than an upgrade. Features and customization options have been removed and stability and usability are still iffy. I will wait for service pack 1 and read the reviews over the next year. But unless they give me as much functionality and customization (including setting drivers and updates to be installed when I say so) as I have in Windows 7, I am not going to go for their "free app-oriented mobile device OS that also sort of w
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Re:NVidia is for cows. (Score:4, Funny)
Windows 10, the best Windows ever:
http://i.imgur.com/5F3zkCC.jpg
Re:NVidia is for cows. (Score:4, Informative)
Re:NVidia is for cows. (Score:5, Informative)
Control Panel -> System -> Hardware tab -> Device Installation Settings
Then just set it to "Never install driver software from Windows Update."
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I want to know how 'manual update' will save you from this?
Unless you just never install updates, ever, or something like that. Which is probably worse.
Re:Best solution (Score:5, Insightful)
With the diversity of systems running Windows, no realistic amount of testing will ever completely guarantee security updates are good. You still need a mechanism to decline known-flawed ones, and a mechanism for recovery and uninstallation the first time you get hit without warning.
In any case, the way Microsoft is going under Nadella, sadly it seems very unlikely they would do as you suggest. They are literally giving Windows 10 away free to huge numbers of people, and presumably they're going it because they want to be more like an Apple or a Google, picking up the revenues on the surrounding ecosystem, not just whatever they can find from the platform itself.
Those automatic updates would be the perfect way to show unavoidable nag messages to sign up for other Microsoft software and services, or those of their selected partners who they believe may be of interest to you, or to install spyware to feed back extra data, or to disable existing Windows feature that used to be free because some commercial interest makes getting you to pay for it a more promising option for them.
Not that I'm suggesting they'd ever do that sort of thing deliberately, of course. Maybe the Windows 7 update that has been nagging users about updating to Windows 10 itself was just an oversight.
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Not that I'm suggesting they'd ever do that sort of thing deliberately, of course. Maybe the Windows 7 update that has been nagging users about updating to Windows 10 itself was just an oversight.
KB3035583 is love. KB3035583 is life.
The first KB# I ended up memorizing after having to rip it off dozens of friends and families PCs (and yes the first time each and every last one requested I do so)
About a quarter of those on Pro versions. So much for controlling updates there either.
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Today "intensive testing" means "Bill in accounts receivable installed it yesterday and his computer seems fine.".
Look at Oracle, Adobe, MS, Google, Apple, etc. They're all HUGE fucking companies who absolutely have the resources to test things thousands of times over. Their QC track record is abysmal. The "standard" now is to have the users be the testers.
Google does this by rolling out updates slowly to unsuspecting users.
MS does it by dumping a load of shit on everyone at once and hoping the blogs sor
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We had instant on computers in the 1980's. Hell, it was even booting directly into the Basic language, too!
10 PRINT "MICROSOFT STILL SUCKS IN 2015"
20 GOTO 10
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That damn Shuttleworth forcing broken software updates onto the hardware you paid perfectly good money for! String him up!
FTFY
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does /. really need M$ stories every fucking day?
We could save them up and post them all on a designated day. Like Tuesday, for example.
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Fixed that for you.
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It's not limited to software but is the whole idea of an economy built on disposable products: since nothing lasts, you are effectively renting everything and since you're renting