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Transportation

How Uber Is Changing Life For Women In Saudi Arabia 168

An anonymous reader writes: Being unable to legally drive is hard for many women in Saudi Arabia, especially working women. With notoriously poor mass transit options, and the stigma attached to women riding the bus alone, Uber has changed the life of many Saudi women by giving them greater mobility and independence. While there are no official statistics on how many women use the service, anecdotal evidence suggest that 70% to 90% of Saudi riders are women. "A lot of them, I would say, are young women," says Saudi Arabia general manager Majed Abukhater. "We have some data to show that these women are starting to rely on Uber a lot more for their daily commutes; the proportion of trips that we see in Saudi during the weekday is actually very high relative to other locations. That's just kind of one indicator to tell us that women are really starting to rely on Uber for their daily commutes to work, or to school, or to university."
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How Uber Is Changing Life For Women In Saudi Arabia

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  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 10, 2015 @01:26PM (#50286561)

    Eradicating blatant sexism is.

    • by plopez ( 54068 )

      That would be bad as it would reduce private sector profitability.

      (of course I am being sarcastic)

      • That would be bad as it would reduce private sector profitability.

        Not true. Using a significant percentage of the workforce to shuttle around women that are perfectly capable of driving themselves, is a big economic inefficiency. Furthermore, most of the drivers are foreign nationals, so the much of their income is repatriated to their home countries rather than circulating in the Saudi economy. From an economic/business perspective, this is insane.

        • Using a significant percentage of the workforce to shuttle around women that are perfectly capable of driving themselves, is a big economic inefficiency.

          Wait, what?!

          I thought that owning your own vehicle was one of those evil things that only Americans did, certainly not something we wanted to encourage in another country. Mass Transit is GOOD, personal autos are EVIL.

          Suggesting that encouraging Saudi women to own their own cars can't be a good thing, can it?

          • by tepples ( 727027 )

            Mass Transit is GOOD, personal autos are EVIL.

            Uber service resembles taxi service more than it does fixed-route bus service. So even under a mindset that mass transit is GOOD, I imagine Uber isn't quite as GOOD as mass transit. Right now, it's just filling a gap.

        • Furthermore, most of the drivers are foreign nationals, so the much of their income is repatriated to their home countries rather than circulating in the Saudi economy. From an economic/business perspective, this is insane.

          So rich Saudis, busy following a particular ideological mania, are sending money they have plenty of to much poorer countries where it's desperately needed? Sounds like a win/win situation to me.

    • by sims 2 ( 994794 ) on Monday August 10, 2015 @01:32PM (#50286629)

      Yeah but I am sure the next step will be to ban uber in Saudi Arabia.

      • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

        by Anonymous Coward

        They will simply require that women riding in Uber be escorted by a male family member.

        • They will simply require that women riding in Uber be escorted by a male family member.

          That is already a legal requirement, that is (apparently) not being enforced.

          • by Anonymous Coward

            They will simply require that women riding in Uber be escorted by a male family member.

            That is already a legal requirement, that is (apparently) not being enforced.

            Don't worry, I'm certain they will get around to fixing that, and all it will probably take is 1 rich asshole + 1 wife/daughter riding unescorted complaining about it.

        • They will simply require that women riding in Uber be escorted by a male family member.

          Or enter into mut'ah marriages for the duration of the journey. So the woman gets into the Uber, enters into a mut'ah marriage, the dowry paid is the amount of the Uber fare, and when she exits the marriage is dissolved.

          Having said that, I'm not sure if wahhabism allows mut'ah marriages...

    • by mykepredko ( 40154 ) on Monday August 10, 2015 @01:33PM (#50286639) Homepage

      Maybe it's the beginning of the answer.

      If Uber allows women to move more freely and work at jobs and go to school, something they weren't allowed before then I would think this is a first step.

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by Anonymous Coward

        If Uber allows women to move more freely and work at jobs and go to school, something they weren't allowed before then I would think this is a first step.

        A technology which facilitates women in Saudi Arabia to be in the presence of men who are not relatives.

        What could possibly go wrong?

        Sorry, but for the same reasons they aren't allowed to drive (Sharia law), or travel without the permission of their husband/father ... it will only lead to cracking down on women using the service.

        Saudi Arabia has no interes

      • by Jason Levine ( 196982 ) on Monday August 10, 2015 @01:55PM (#50286857) Homepage

        Unfortunately, this first step will likely be followed by the (easier to implement) second step of "Uber is violating Islam by letting women go outside without a male escort! Shut it down!!!!" instead of the (better, but harder to implement) second step of "Hey, maybe we should treat women like they are actual people instead of things that we own."

      • by tompaulco ( 629533 ) on Monday August 10, 2015 @03:21PM (#50287603) Homepage Journal

        Maybe it's the beginning of the answer.

        If Uber allows women to move more freely and work at jobs and go to school, something they weren't allowed before then I would think this is a first step.

        Uber is not doing it. Taxis are doing it. Uber does not contract drivers in SA, they just use existing taxi services. Uber has nothing to do with liberation of women in SA other than making a claim to be responsible.

      • by Lennie ( 16154 )

        They were already allowed these freedoms.

        Travel/transport was just very unreliable.

      • If Uber allows women to move more freely and work at jobs and go to school, something they weren't allowed before then I would think this is a first step.

        No it's not. It's a 3rd-party kludgy band-aid on a problem that only makes it even easier for the Saudi government to put off ever addressing it.

        Consider the possibility of this headline from Montgomery, AL in 1954:

        "Frustrated at Riding in Back of the Bus, Negroes Establish Their Own (Possibly Illegal) Bus Service"

        Would you consider that a "first step" to fixing the underlying problem of racism?

    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward

      Eradicating blatant sexism is.

      Why was this modded down ? It's the truth. Saudi Arabia is still in the 15th century when it comes to woman's rights.
      Want to improve woman's condition in that shitty hellhole of a country ? How about let woman legally drive instead of this "religious" nonsense. Man knows better, females know jack shit said good ol' mohamed.

    • by Zeio ( 325157 ) on Monday August 10, 2015 @01:53PM (#50286819)

      Agree here. Why is the headline stated like this ~ Uber makes things great for Saudi women. It should be ~ Women suffering under Islamic misogyny codified into a Islamofascist totalitarian state find respite and have a slight increase in quality of life with Uber.

      Nobody calls a spade a spade anymore.

      • +1 Uncomfortable truth.

      • by smooth wombat ( 796938 ) on Monday August 10, 2015 @02:27PM (#50287109) Journal
        Nobody calls a spade a spade anymore.

        Uber is a taxi service but is trying to claim it's not a taxi service even though people use them as a taxi to go from one place to another which is not along the route of the driver. The reason they claim they're not a taxi service, even though they are, is because they would have to abide by the rules all the other taxi services have to abide by, including additional insurance for their drivers and associated fees.

        Calling a spade a spade.
        • by GlennC ( 96879 )

          Uber is a taxi service...

          +1, Informative.

          And in the case of Saudi Arabia, you can add another law they're breaking...that of not allowing women to travel without a male relative.

          If I were an Uber executive, I'd stay well clear of Saudi Arabia....I understand that they don't mess around with punishing those who violate the law there.

          • by KGIII ( 973947 )

            I can not fathom wanting to open a business, of any kind, in Saudi Arabia. I just can not think of a reason why I would expose myself or my employees to the region. Even if my business was selling veils and women-whips (I am only assuming that they whip them) I still would not want to open a business there. I might not even want to ship anything there from a mail order catalog. I have no idea if the regular citizens are online, it seems unlikely but they might have access. Other than the history of the Saud

            • by Anonymous Coward

              You cannot open a business anyway. You need a Saudi sponsor who will take their percentage for being a sleeping partner. The large multi-nationals get round this often by using local agents who are invariably well-known local businesses. For example, IBM are represented by Juffali [juffali.com] who also represent brands like Mercedes-Benz and Siemens. Even though it's a local agent these are serious companies so the backup, whilst not up to European standards for example and a bit slower, is good and with globalisation i

        • Your forgot the part where sometimes it *does* claim to be a taxi service, when it wants to gain a benefit that is given to taxis.

        • In Saudi Arabia they are claiming to be a taxi calling service, not a ride share service. They rely on existing licensed taxis. It is just their rating system and ease of use, that puts them at an advantage. They complete on a level playground with every other taxi service.

          I dont think you know what a spade is.

    • That is like saying social media isn't a useful tool to combat abuse by authority because the real solution is for those in authority not to abuse anyone.. I don't find "the real solution is for the problem to not exist" a compelling argument.
    • by LWATCDR ( 28044 )

      Get back to me when you have that worked out.
      No it is not the answer but if it improves the lives of the women than it is a good thing.

    • Eradicating blatant sexism is.

      That's like saying that "encryption isn't the answer, eradicating computer misuse is."

      Please tell us how you plan to eradicate blatant sexism in Saudi Arabia. I'm really interested in how you think the culture there can be changed, and why women should sit at home and never travel until sexism has been eradicated, rather than just using Uber.

    • Eradicating blatant sexism is.

      More precisely, eradicating Islam is

    • by gweihir ( 88907 )

      Sexism, racism, nationalism, ageism, etc. cannot be eradicated, as it is a mechanism by which people that are not very smart and not very capable try to elevate themselves above others. Unless that problem can be fixed, sexism, racism, etc. will remain with the human race.

  • You know what would change women's lives more? Letting them drive.

    • Many years ago, I worked with some Saudis who had brought their wives and kids over. They would be going to back when the work was done, but rather than spend a couple years away from the family, they brought them with them.

      At one point, I was talking to one of the wives and mentioned how they must be enjoying being able to drive themselves around. She replied that she was looking forward to having a driver (the husband could afford to hire a driver for his wife when in Saudi Arabia). LA Traffic is not a

      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        I can only imagine that the autonomous cars will be a hit, but the driving there is truly frighteningly-atrocious. I was very glad to have ex-military drivers with special training and armor-plated SUVs, not for fear of some attack (honestly, they like us more than you might imagine), but because going out on those roads is taking your life into your hands.
      • She can still hire a driver if she wants to when she has the right to drive.

        Drivers are cheap in Saudi Arabia because they are practically slaves.

  • by jbengt ( 874751 ) on Monday August 10, 2015 @01:35PM (#50286657)
    From TFA: "for regulatory reasons, Uber in Saudi Arabia does not work with contracted drivers using their own cars—all Uber rides go through existing companies"

    So Uber can follow local laws when they're forced to. Who would've guessed?
    • The penalty for not following local laws in most countries would be a petty fine. In Saudi Arabia . . . it would be a couple hundred lashes with the whip.

      If the offense was considered to be an insult to Islam . . . say bye-bye to your head.

      Oh, and being left-handed is considered to be an insult to Islam. You don't need to try very hard to insult Islam.

      That is why Über folks decided to abide by Saudi Arabian laws.

      • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

        by Anonymous Coward

        Not to be defending Saudi Arabia, Islam or anything in between, but let's be clear here...Saudi Arabia is a totalitarian feudalistic system. They use Wahabism, which is one of the strictest sects of puritan Islam, which gave us among other things: Al-Qaeda, Taliban, ISIS, etc. When you have a totalitarian system, you always need some sort of bullshit ideology to legitimize your total control. This has/is being used in many countries: Soviet Union, N-Koera, Nazi Germany, etc.

        The founder of the Saudi dynasty

      • by myowntrueself ( 607117 ) on Monday August 10, 2015 @03:24PM (#50287625)

        The penalty for not following local laws in most countries would be a petty fine. In Saudi Arabia . . . it would be a couple hundred lashes with the whip.

        If the offense was considered to be an insult to Islam . . . say bye-bye to your head.

        Oh, and being left-handed is considered to be an insult to Islam. You don't need to try very hard to insult Islam.

        That is why Über folks decided to abide by Saudi Arabian laws.

        My experience in life has been that people who are easily offended are usually insecure and have low self esteem.

        So this would probably apply to MOST of the worlds Muslims...

        Fuckin sad bunch.

        • My experience in life has been that people who are easily offended are usually insecure and have low self esteem.

          So this would probably apply to MOST of the worlds Muslims...

          Fuckin sad bunch.

          On the bright side, if you steal a bike, you can show off your "riding with no hands".

    • by bsolar ( 1176767 )
      Uber knows that it has very little chance to push for changes in legislations in Saudi Arabia, but it has actually chances in western countries. On top of that the consequences of losing such a battle are pretty different. It makes perfectly sense for them not to fight battles they are very unlikely to lose but still fight battles they believe they can win in the long term.
    • So Uber can follow local laws when they're forced to. Who would've guessed?

      How the fuck do you think UberBlack works? Oh, wait; you wouldn't know, as you haven't actually researched what you're running off at the mouth about. Imagine that. :p

  • by Anonymous Coward

    We must repress this immediately. Women with freedom. Think of the Islam.

  • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

    Comment removed based on user account deletion
    • Taxis, offer all the benefits of Uber with the convenience of government controls like licensing, inspection, background checks, and safety standards for vehicles as well as passengers.

      And in spite of all that, people can still get killed, raped, and robbed by taxi drivers in much of the world, including the USA. Perhaps those safety checks aren't all that safe?

      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        Government Licensing does one thing, and one thing only. It increases barrier to entry by raising the cost of doing business.

        • by Anonymous Coward

          Government Licensing does one thing, and one thing only. It increases barrier to entry by raising the cost of doing business.

          Not to mention the increased opportunity for graft and corruption by government officials.

      • Re:s/uber/taxi. (Score:5, Insightful)

        by gstoddart ( 321705 ) on Monday August 10, 2015 @02:23PM (#50287083) Homepage

        Where I live, they mandated that taxis have an on-board camera with a circular buffer of 24 hours. It had been done in response to allegations a cab driver had assaulted a women ... they later found other evidence for it from another source.

        They pushed through the law requiring this, against the objections of the cab drivers who though they were being spied on.

        When a cab driver was subsequently robbed, and the suspect caught on camera, the cab drivers were all in praise of it.

        It turns out, the mandated cameras made it safer for everybody.

        Imposing regulations on cab drivers can work, and despite claims to the contrary, isn't always about protecting the interests of cab drivers.

        The licensing, inspection, background checks and safety inspections aren't the only benefits to be had.

        Stop listening to Uber who keeps saying the lie that regulations the cab drivers have to follow are something the Uber drivers shouldn't be subjected to ... claims that cities are defending the interests of cab companies in enforcing their laws are complete bullshit.

        Uber never has been, and never will be the underdogs ... and this never has been, and never will be, about protecting entrenched players.

        It's about cities being able to regulate industry players to a minimum standard.

        So, if in my city Uber drivers are willing to get commercial licenses, hold the proper insurance and drivers license, and have the same video devices installed for the safety of everybody (you know, like an actual legal cab company) ... I'm sure people would say they're welcome. But Uber claiming they shouldn't have to is bullshit.

        As long as Uber insists that they aren't subject to laws, they continue to be lying bastards in my book. They're just a company whose business model is in trying to insist laws regarding taxi companies don't apply to them.

        • Re:s/uber/taxi. (Score:4, Insightful)

          by Burz ( 138833 ) on Monday August 10, 2015 @02:57PM (#50287405) Homepage Journal

          Uber was supposed to be a way to do IGT (intelligent grouping transportation) where the trips of different customers are automatically combined to save money/resources.

          Instead, it turned into another war over cheap labor and skirting regulation with no actual ride sharing. Uber are liars and cheats who conduct 99% of their business on public streets.

        • Is it necessary to use the same cameras to make you happy, or would an equivalent device satisfy you?

    • If they enjoy Uber then perhaps theyd really enjoy a taxi service. Taxis, offer all the benefits of Uber with the convenience of government controls like licensing, inspection, background checks, and safety standards for vehicles as well as passengers.

      From TFA; Before Uber came to the countryâ"it currently operates in Jeddah and Dammam, in addition to Riyadhâ"women relied on private drivers (if they could afford them) or the limo companies that Uber now works with (for regulatory reasons, Uber in

      • by Nidi62 ( 1525137 )

        So that's exactly what they are getting - existing taxi services, only with Uber acting as a middleman and skimming of their cut.

        So, basically Uber has completely changed their business model in Saudi Arabia to something that would be perfectly legal in other countries (a scheduling app for existing taxi/limo services). Wonder why that can't just do that in the rest of world?

        • Profit. Their basic business model depends on an endless supply of drivers that will work cheap and who can be replaced at will, local exceptions don't change that.

          • by KGIII ( 973947 )

            I pick up my car on Thursday. It is a new BMW, of course, and is the 640Li. I paid cash for it, it is "bespoke." I did not finance it as financing is a waste of money in many cases. Now, my car was around $135,000 with all the applicable fees, add-ons, sales tax, etc... I typically buy a new car every two years and sell the used car instead of trading it in.

            Could I ever, realistically, pay for my car by driving for Uber? I do not mean my time, maintaining it is free though they might be angry when they find

            • by KGIII ( 973947 )

              I found stats that indicate that it was $19/hr in Boston a couple of years ago. I'd have to drive for something like 6750 hours just to pay for my car. I could get a cheaper car.

    • by Anonymous Coward

      with the convenience of government controls

      You actually said that. Amazing. You must be way over on the left to think that government controls are such a good thing.

      Yes, please, tell us how to live our lives, it's all so convenient.

    • Maybe in a first world country? I live in Xalapa, Veracruz (Mexico) and the quality (and hence safety) between cars differ hugely. As for security, in some places security writes down the taxi number and the destination because of how dangerous taking a taxi has become. Or: maybe a taxi service in Saudi Arabia doesn't add that much (if at all).
  • Sometimes 'unintended consequences' are beneficial.
  • by 140Mandak262Jamuna ( 970587 ) on Monday August 10, 2015 @02:03PM (#50286907) Journal
    The shari-ah holds that women are not allowed to travel alone without a proper male relative acting as chaperone. [missionislam.com] It is known as maharam or honor law. Women caught in Saudi Arabia without a proper male relative in the company of an unrelated male can be prosecuted. Since all uber drivers are male, (women can't drive in Saudi Arabia) and likely to be unrelated, unless these women have a constant supply of "proper" male relatives, they would not have freedom of movement, uber or no uber. I am no islamic scholar, so not very sure of this: The relatives who can act as chaperones are husbands, brothers, fathers, sons. Not very sure who among the in-laws are allowed to be chaperones as per mahram.
    • by Tailhook ( 98486 )

      I am no islamic scholar, so not very sure of this

      Well if you were an Islamic scholar you'd just bend your answer to suit you audience, downplaying your attivist misogyny in this case. But then again maybe not. Which ranks higher on the list of unacceptable things? Sexism or criticizing Islam? I can't remember.

      • If I am trying to sugar coat Islam, you think I would even bring up the concept of mahram? And give a link to an Islamic site to back it up? Think before you shoot buddy.
        • You misunderstood. The entire comment was predicated on "if you were an Islamic scholar." The antagonism is directed at Islam, not at you.

    • by Anonymous Coward

      Most of my knowledge of women and driving in Saudi comes from watching the movie Wadjda, so I may be totally wrong. But I think that it's common for women to be driven by an employee of the family (maybe that counts as a male relative?). The problem is that these drivers see their employers (the women) as beneath them, and realize that the women have no alternative, so are often late and rude. So, if Uber offers a viable alternative, it's an improvement.

    • FTFA:

      Because Uber drivers are working through established transportation companies, Abukhater says that the company's presence in the country hasn't raised any new concerns about women traveling alone with male drivers, which has been an issue in other regions (including the U.S.), where new ride sharing services, including Uber, rely on car owners who aren't licensed as transport providers.

      So I guess they found a way to fudge around the chaperone law. Families already hire personal drivers as part of their household servant staff. So maybe an Über driver is considered as part of the staff . . . ?

    • by bsolar ( 1176767 )
      The very article you cite is a dissertation about how Islamic law actually *doesn't* require such an escort in all cases.
    • Eh, why not have a dog accompany her! That would be very injurious to say that to a muslim or arab, though.
      In 20th/21st century Western countries, we wouldn't give a shit about that - dogs are "educated" and well fed, and a companion, rather than wandering hungry beasts lookedat with a mix of fear, contempt and whatever feelings you would get for something impure, not unlike excrements.

      Islam seems to micromanage everything. If this woman thing is about safety from rape, abduction and "seduction" etc. and

  • Isn't this illegal? (Score:3, Informative)

    by undefinedreference ( 2677063 ) on Monday August 10, 2015 @02:03PM (#50286909)

    I haven't been in The Kingdom (KSA) in about 7 years, but back then women couldn't go anywhere without an adult male relative (father, brother, or husband) to protect them unless there were no men there. They had massive malls that were staffed and accessible only to women, where they could freely walk and talk with other women wearing western-style clothing if they so wished.

    Since only men can legally drive on public roads, how does this work?! Wouldn't they still need to bring an adult male guardian along?

    • by cdrudge ( 68377 )

      It's largely unenforced. How does a Uber driver driving a woman in the back seat look different than a guardian brother/husband/father driving the same woman?

      It's like speeding 5 MPH over the speed limit. Everyone does it. Everyone gets away with it. And sometimes you have to lest you get run over by all the other traffic. But it's still illegal. And if a police officer wanted to pull you over he could and there's not much you could do if they really wanted to enforce the speed limit strictly.

  • How is there a social stigma that applies to riding the bus alone where there are dozens of witnesses to your behavior that wouldn't apply to riding alone in a strangers car?
  • by tekrat ( 242117 ) on Monday August 10, 2015 @02:34PM (#50287193) Homepage Journal

    19 of the hijackers on 9/11 were Saudi. Osama Bin Laden was Saudi. We claimed to have "liberated" Iraq because Saddam's people were oppressed (after the WMD argument fell apart); so, why have we never "exported freedom" to Saudi Arabia?

    Exactly what stranglehold do they they have on us (other than having gobs of oil)? And not like that's never stopped us before... I assume they must have Child-Porn pictures with Bush and Cheney. I can't quite understand the thinking of Dubya, assuming he was thinking at all....

  • Half measures allow you to paper over the intolerance and sexism endemic to that society.

  • Even Uber lets women are who are not allowed to drive transportation, women not in the company of a husband, male relative or other man assumed to be such, are subject to prejudice and rude behavior from males. In other words, if you are a woman walking around with out a male protector you are considered to be a prostitute or someone who does not mind men thinking you are a prostitute.

    I don't think Uber is a cure-all for the oppression women suffer in Saudi Arabia.

  • "Saudi Arabia general manager Majed Abukhater says that while his office doesn’t keep precise gender data, observation and anecdotal evidence suggest that 70% to 90% of Saudi Uber riders are women."

    This article is a pro-Uber bunch of marketing bullshit. Uber isn't changing anything for women in Saudi.

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