Google Announces a Router: OnHub 278
An anonymous reader writes: Google has announced they're working with TP-LINK to build a new router they call OnHub. They say it's designed for the way we tend to use Wi-Fi in 2015, optimizing for streaming and sharing in a way that older routers don't. The router has a cylindrical design and comes with a simple, user-friendly mobile app. They say, "OnHub searches the airwaves and selects the best channel for the fastest connection. A unique antenna design and smart software keep working in the background, automatically adjusting OnHub to avoid interference and keep your network at peak performance. You can even prioritize a device, so that your most important activity — like streaming your favorite show — gets the fastest speed." The device will cost $200, it supports Bluetooth Smart Ready, Weave, and 802.15.4, and it will automatically apply firmware updates.
automatically install firmware updates (Score:5, Funny)
I guess nothing would go wrong with "automatically installing firmware updates".
Re:automatically install firmware updates (Score:5, Insightful)
Like with most things, there are pros and cons for this sort of thing. If you leave the automatic updates "OFF" by default, majority or users will not bother with updates on routers and when a vulnerability is discovered, crackers have a field day. By leaving them "ON" by default, but allowing concerned users to turn them off, perhaps you get to a reasonable medium.
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No, it is not uncommon, but in the USA our penises are extremely large, which increases the probability of contact with the zipper.
Your sweat pants have zippers?
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If you look at Chromecast, the vast majority of silent upgrades went smoothly.
Re:automatically install firmware updates (Score:5, Insightful)
If you look at Chromecast, the vast majority of silent upgrades went smoothly.
If you look at Windows, the vast majority of automatic updates went smoothly. But "vast majority" for a very large user base still leaves a significant amount of users with problems. As has been discussed here many times.
Re: automatically install firmware updates (Score:2, Insightful)
Neither Chromecast nor a specific router needs to deal with infinite combinations of hardware (and drivers) of varying quality.
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They also escape having to deal with any Microsoft authored code which is a bonus.
It's almost like cheating. If I was on the dev team I'd probably introduce a little bit of Microsoft code just to give myself a challenge so the automatic upgrading script isn't too simple to write. :P
Re:automatically install firmware updates (Score:4, Insightful)
If you look at Chromecast, the vast majority of silent upgrades went smoothly.
This is small consolation to those who have their PC or router hammered by an update that doesn't work.
If they had some mechanism for a fail-safe recovery then I'd be much more inclined to agree with the "turn upgrades on by default" scenario, but it doesn't appear they have anything like that in place.
Re:automatically install firmware updates (Score:5, Insightful)
What would be different from auto updating vs. everyone manually updating? You would most likely get the exact same outcome. Vast majority will go smooth but some would fail.
Re:automatically install firmware updates (Score:5, Interesting)
Probably not considering they do it already with phones, nexus players, chomecasts, etc.. Though I do hope they have a fallback partition / auto-recovery in the case of things going south. I probably won't be buying one as I have a good setup already, but depending on how its implemented, I could see recommending this to the aunt betsy's of the world.
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One of the biggest issues with today's technology is the difficulty non-technical users have in getting it running. I just purchased a new truck, and learning how to run all the different systems is anything but trivial.
Turning routers into automated appliances is precisely what needs to happen. Google isn't the first to understand it. But they are the biggest, so perhaps they can be successful at it.
Give me something I can plug into my network and will auto-configure everything. An app
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The closest I've seen to this is probably Apple's AirPort Extreme/Time Capsule. Drop it in, use an iOS or Mac app to find and configure it, and it does a decent job of routing, allowing for external HDDs to work, and so on.
Of course, it doesn't have the more advanced features like manual ACLs, but for an average user, it does the job without issue.
Re: automatically install firmware updates (Score:2, Insightful)
Sure. Need to run now. Must fix my car's automated injection system after spending all day creating special tools on the lathe. Stupid lazy people out there!
Mom needs to use the thermostat and Youtube (Score:5, Insightful)
> The instructions for performing maintainence of my heat pump assume foundational HVAC knowledge, too. ...
> But for some reason, computer/network gear, despite being many times more complex pieces of machinery, carry this expectation that a retard like your mom who can't even understand/remember/figure out clicking File and then Open should be able to fully understand them.
The expectation is that mom can adjust the thermostat, without needing to know the differences between various types of refrigerants. Similarly, the goal is that she should be able to look at pictures of the grandkids without configuring ipv6.
Because consumer routers are directly connected to the internet, with no firewall between the router and the net, regular updates are required these days. Mom should be able to use YouTube, and do so safely she needs regular updates on the router.
Nerds like you and I can turn off those updates, install open-wrt, or whatever we want. Just like you CAN install a hotrod intake manifold, but doing so shouldn't be required in order to drive.
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No my grandmother is exactly like the OP. She is incredibly intelligent, witty, excellent problem solver, etc. But for some reason when it comes to tech her brain just turns off. She just doesn't want to be bothered. Even though she has used a computer pretty much daily for the past 20 years (she is an editor) even simple tasks like trying to figure out where she saved a document, how to add an attachment to email, or even how to turn on a computer, is difficult.
I think she just thinks it is too difficult
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Right, because they've never bricked any of those devices with an automatic update before ... Right?
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What could possibly go wrong with updates automatically installing themselves?
Least ways on a device "owned" by the benevolent Google that is also the choke point where all / most of your home or business' network traffic passes through? Doesn't sound nefarious to me whatsoever.
Now pricing it at $200 considering the value of the data they'll be able to mine from it, that's just pure greed. Shamey shame Google.
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I guess nothing would go wrong with "automatically installing firmware updates".
Well we know the folly of letting customers update firmware and pass words.
I almost dislike this but the more I learn about flaws and blunders hidden in
routers and other devices the more I lean to the update me camp.
I would like a hardware gate that gives me absolute control
but a handful of security folk at Google do have a clue and
do take security seriously.
One might ask why Google security gets the attention and the budget they have -- well
they have a lot of value in the data they collect and own. That
Will it be open? Ported to OpenWRT etc.? (Score:2)
I guess nothing would go wrong with "automatically installing firmware updates".
Will the code be open (or its algorithms unpatented)? Will any other aspect of this be proprietary?
If not, and it does work better and "play well with others", it can be ported into open router projects such as OpenWRT. With those you can have control of the updates (if any), rather than accepting Google's choices.
You can also avoid any "Phone Home" and other malware inclusions - at least in the official releases. B-)
Can it self restart? (Score:2)
The only thing I want to know about it is
can it self restart when it locks up?
Or is that something that no router co is ever going to fix?
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The only thing I want to know about it is can it self restart when it locks up? Or is that something that no router co is ever going to fix?
Maybe you need to replace your router? I'm pretty sure I haven't had to reboot mine ever except when I was setting it up.
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My rb192 started dying regularly so I hooked up a WRT54g I had lying around and that died for the first time in over a month just a few hours ago. You could still connect to the wireless but it wasn't passing any traffic. I'm running OpenWRT so it's tempting to blame that, except back when I was running the stock firmware I had to power-cycle it at least weekly for the same thing...
Lots of routers are poop.
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An average 4-person household was likely to have 1 computer 10 years, 4 devices 5 years ago, and maybe as many as 8-12 today. In a few years, this could grow to 20-50 devices. While not average, my two-person household has over 26 active DHCP leases today, which will grow with a security camera upgrade. Granted, some of the devices are vlan'd off from the public internet, but needs change over time.
Not that paying $200 for this device would make much sense, but it is cheaper than having a proper dedicate
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Re:Can it self restart? (Score:5, Insightful)
Go buy a Cisco router and the WIFI HWIC modules for it. Granted, you'll spend 10x what that consumer-grade POS costs and you'll have to spend a considerable amount of time learning how to properly configure and secure it, but it will be reliable. And 802.11g.
I think the more relevant point the parent was trying to make here is the rest of that "consumer-grade POS" network hardware does not need to be rebooted on a regular basis, nor does it require a CCNA to set it up properly.
And with the usage profile of the average 4-person household, one should not have to spend 10x the cost to procure hardware rated for 24/7 use and load rated for hundreds of users in order to gain a modicum of reliability.
Re: Can it self restart? (Score:2)
My solution was to buy an Apple Airport Extreme base station. That's given me rock solid reliability, and it auti-updates.
Now I dislike Apple stuff in general. Will never have an iPhone. Only grudgingly bought a MacBook because I wanted to learn the Swift programming language. Used a Buffalo router with Tomato firmware.
Nevertheless, the Airport Extreme base station has never once failed. My old Tomato would sometimes crap out when too many people were doing Skype or RemoteDesktop or VPN or torrent or someth
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Good point. I think one problem is that most consumer grade wifi is assuming 4-8 devices tops in a home. I realize I'm a programmer, but with all the smart devices these days, I've got Nest products, light bulbs, game consoles, chromecast, apple tv, tablets, smart phones and computers that all use the wifi. They're not all using it at the same time but i'm probably approaching 20 wifi enabled devices. A lot of the lowend crap will fall over with that many connections. As it is, my apple airport extreme
Cheapo TP link (35 Euro) here with DD WRT cfw. (Score:2)
Cheapo TP link (35 Euro) here with DD WRT cfw.
Runs and runs and, cough. runs.
The only thing I restart once in several month is, ironically, a Cisco cable modem.
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I never reboot my router since I had it hooked up to a UPS. Coincidence? Maybe.
Fact is that just as the product is starting to have very good software, the next generation H/W comes and they completely drop dev for it. I used to work for D-Link and I was there when the first routers were released in North America. They've come a long way but as long as they drop dev between generations you'll never has a solid consumer grade router.
bufferbloat? (Score:2)
"optimizing for streaming and sharing" == bufferbloat [wikipedia.org] ?
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You're not going to be buffering anything inbound and proper prioritization outbound means your voip packets go to the front of the line. Buffer bloat is more an issue in the public internet net the end points. Intelligent QoS can make big buffers useful but that's too easy to game both by the bad users/applications and the ISP's themselves (let there own and partners packets cut the line). It's also why gear in the default free zone tends not to have deep buffers.
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Or even RED.
Counterintuitively: dropping an occasional packet when the queue is getting long enough that delay is becoming a problem, rather than letting the queue grow to a limit and then dropping them because there's no more storage, doesn't actually increase the average number of packets dropped when the channel is oversubscribed. It just drops DIFFERENT packets, resulting in shortening the queue (and fairly signalling the sende
Interesting, from someone other than Google. (Score:5, Insightful)
It's an interesting concept, but I don't think I want to turn my router over to a company like Google or Facebook that makes their money Hoovering up every last bit of data they can get about me.
Re:Interesting, from someone other than Google. (Score:5, Insightful)
I had the same initial reaction, but realistically I spend so much time on Android/Chrome/Google Docs/GMail/etc. already that avoiding OnHub will do nothing to stop Google knowing far too much about me. In many ways my phone is more sensitive than my router.
My bigger worry is that Google will add whatever features it wants whenever it wants, and who knows how much control we'll have over any of it. Maybe they'll even start sharing your bandwidth to support things like Google Fi. What I've noticed through Android and all the supporting apps is Google just does whatever shit they want to. They don't even particularly seem to care if you like it, even if you're stuck with it for a long time, so long as it supports some long term goal they have, that they might not have even disclosed.
So, if you're willing to spend $200 - the price of a high-end consumer router - to get some nice tech but be at the whim of Google, then maybe this is for you.
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If you click and click and click some more, you eventually arrive at this page:
https://support.google.com/onhub/answer/6279845?hl=en&ref_topic=6246512&vid=1-635755226297891176-9820215056587978885
Which claims they don't hoover up the most important bits of data about your browsing habits. They do keep some stuff about the devices you connect, but it's not bad, IMO.
Mostly, it boils down to whether or not you already trust and use Google services. If you do, this isn't going to change much, if at all,
Re:Interesting, from someone other than Google. (Score:4, Interesting)
It's an interesting concept, but I don't think I want to turn my router over to a company like Google or Facebook that makes their money Hoovering up every last bit of data they can get about me.
From https://support.google.com/onh... [google.com]: "the Google On app and your OnHub do not track the websites you visit or collect the content of any traffic on your network".
As an aside, I suspect this sort of issue is part of the reason for the Alphabet reorganization. Too often, assumptions that Google's only business model is driven by data collection interfere with the launch of products which do not do any data collection. Alphabet may provide more flexibility to move those products out of Google, Inc. when it's helpful.
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Towards the bottom of the link you shared:
While OnHub doesn't track the websites you visit, your DNS provider can associate your web traffic with your public IP address. OnHub sets your default DNS provider to Google Public DNS. (This can be changed in the Advanced Networking settings of the Google On app.)
What could possibly go wrong?
Google DNS vs. Comcast DNS (Score:3)
Towards the bottom of the link you shared:
While OnHub doesn't track the websites you visit, your DNS provider can associate your web traffic with your public IP address. OnHub sets your default DNS provider to Google Public DNS. (This can be changed in the Advanced Networking settings of the Google On app.)
What could possibly go wrong?
Compare contrast with Comcast's DNS - Comcast owns NBC now so they have a vested interest in hunting down sharing of pirated content. I'd bet every single /.er is a legitimate target for them.
So do you trust Google or Comcast more here? Unless we're all running OpenDNS, and even then are you sure they're not selling your info too?
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You make Google sound like a bad guy but how is this REALLY any different than AT&T or Comcast supplying a router and using information gleaned from it? Because both of them supply routers right now for their respective internet services, although you can choose to use your own in both cases.
Whatever you do, your connection eventually gets to their network where they monitor it anyway. Short of an encrypted tunnel (assuming it hasn't been cracked) they're going to know what you are doing.
For Google f
Oh hell no ... (Score:5, Insightful)
Right, like I trust Google to be my router/firewall ... no way in hell I'd let Google be the gatekeeper for the internet in my house.
Because you can bet your ass they're going to get a lot more visibility into everything you do, and use it for their own purpose.
And I'm sure it will be remotely accessibly when law enforcement demands it and introduce several new security holes as it tries to be so easy to use it fails utterly. Mark my words, this will cause a lot of new problems.
I don't trust Google to do that at all. I use their services from a browser, but letting them be directly in charge of my network? No bloody way in hell.
Their "do no evil" pledge means less with every passing year.
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Because you can bet your ass they're going to get a lot more visibility into everything you do, and use it for their own purpose.
From https://support.google.com/onh... [google.com]: "the Google On app and your OnHub do not track the websites you visit or collect the content of any traffic on your network".
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the Google On app and your OnHub do not track the websites you visit or collect the content of any traffic on your network
Well, that's two Alphabets down...
Also (from your link),
OnHub gathers information about your wireless environment. Your OnHub scans for other routers in the area and collects their MAC addresses and network names.
The real point is that all of this data goes somewhere, making it discoverable by... well, I'll leave it to your imagination.
Of all the whining.... (Score:5, Insightful)
I know this is the dumbest complaint about this device, but why circular? Why do these people design devices as if they'll be the only thing on our desks, shelves, whatever? There should be a new standard "desktop rack" that these devices can fit in.
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Please mod this guy up. I really hate my router for that exact reason but I deal with it because it does the job.
Re:Of all the whining.... (Score:4, Insightful)
The circular was designed so you wouldn't stack other gear on top of it and block the signal.
Re:Of all the whining.... (Score:4, Insightful)
And I gather it's intended to be attractive enough that you wouldn't mind making it visible. It's kind of a subtle clue to users who won't read the manual that it's a device that needs to "see", and thus will be seen.
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Its been a very long time since I have bought a router, and I have bought several, that I could stack things on top of. Many want to stand up vertical. Others will let you lay them down flat, but do not have a flat surface on top. The few that do, heat up so much that you really should not be putting anything on top of them, if you want them to work reliably for any length of time.
At this point, they can make them circular and I could care less. If they could make them suck a little less, be a little mo
Re:Of all the whining.... (Score:4, Insightful)
Wait, I'm confused. It sounds like you're trying to say you don't care, but then you say that care at least a little bit anyhow. Why do you care about that?
This post brought to you courtesy of the word "not" (or contraction suffix "n't"): the three-character strings that literally completely reverse what you mean.
Read the specs. (Score:5, Informative)
The router has 12 sectored antennas, 6 per frequency. The 6 antennas are arranged in pairs around a circle. This provides excellent "cell" isolation and better beam forming enhancement.
It is an excellent design concept, even if it does make stacking and hiding less convenient. It is a design previously used only on VERY expensive WiFi gear targeted at VERY dense environments like conference halls and stadiums.
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So you can't sit things on top of it and mess up heat disappation...
What you want to do is EXACTLY why they made it round, so you couldn't sit crap on top of it and cause over heating.
A desktop rack is a stupid idea unless you live in a wind tunnel.
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Prioritize? (Score:2, Funny)
"You can even prioritize a device, so that your most important activity — like streaming your favorite show — gets the fastest speed."
What if I'm watching my favorite show on a different device and someone else is using the main device? Huh? WHAT THEN??? WHAT HAPPENS THEN???
Funny. QoS has been around for a looooong time.
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Automatic updates are better than no updates (Score:4, Insightful)
I get that technically-oriented people like those on Slashdot are opposed to automatic updates, but this product isn't targeting you. Most people are going to get their wifi router either from their ISP (where the ISP will manage updates) or something they bought at BestBuy and never touched again after they got it working. Most people will never go out of their way to update anything unless it's either done for them automatically or they're prompted to do so.
Wifi routers are absolutely a place where, for most people, security updates should happen automatically, because for most people, the alternative is for wifi routers to spend their entire lifetime running the same version they shipped with, whatever security updates that may entail.
Can we really be shocked by this? (Score:2)
Google is getting some heat from search engines like DuckDuckGo, so you can't be shocked that they are changing tactics to allow them to keep the revenue flowing in by continuing to find new and creative ways to use your surfing habits for profit.
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Oh yeah, they're really feeling the heat there. Can't even tell you how many times in a given week I hear "Let me just DuckDuckGo that!".
For reference, DDG's search volume is somewhere around 0.2% that of Google's.
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DuckDuckGo = NSA
Routers do this (Score:2)
Routers have offered traffic priority features for a while now. Unfortunately it's still not perfect and it's difficult to allocate the right amount of resources to each service especially if they aren't known. For those managing large corporation or enterprise bandwidth, they understand the challenges in controlling traffic. Netflix per example is really difficult to block because there are many sources from which it can come and the resolved name isn't consistent either.
Encrypted (HTTPS) services can appe
No web interface? (Score:2)
How are you supposed to configure it from a PC? And only 1 LAN port? Really? On a $200 router?
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windows only?
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Please, this is Google we're talking about.
You'll only be able to configure it via a Chrome OS app.
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> And only 1 LAN port?
It's an access point, not a router.
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For $200 ?!?!? (Score:2)
Gezus that better be one amazing wi-fi router, My last Wi-N router (which is plenty fast) only cost me $14.
So basically we're talking $180 for 'better firmware'? I think I'll pass.
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$14 does not buy you a remotely decent 5ghz N router, even in China. Cheap, reliable, fast, secure. Chose MAYBE two.
Mobile app? (Score:2)
So you can't configure your router if you don't have a mobile device?
Will it play nice with BLE? (Score:2)
Will it play nice with BLE (and other users of the unlicensed ISM bands?)
The Internet of Things (IoT) is deploying now.
A big enabler is the Bluetooth Low Energy (BLE) technology, as specfied in the 4.0, 4.2, (and presumably beyond) Bluetooth spec. This prov
Bandwidth sharing for project fi? (Score:2)
Uncertain about Google (Score:2)
Given that a lot of their revenue is generated via data collection and advertisements, can we really trust Google to build a router that won't mine your data at the source?
In tomorrows news... (Score:2)
3.2 million Google OnHub routers have ceased to function due to a buggy firmware update that was automatically installed. The 116.7 million OnHub routers that are part of the BlastField Botnet were not affected.
Speaker up top? Microphone too? Echo competitor (Score:2)
I wonder how much of this move is designed to position Google more firmly in your house. Maybe they saw that Amazon Echo was getting traction and is moving to compete in this space as well?
Does it have a microphone...?
Why no USB or local storage & offline apps? (Score:3)
Opps, just checked specs does have USB3 (Score:2)
What information is it sending back to Father Goog (Score:2)
WiFi has the Fi in Project Fi (Score:2)
Google has a strong interest in having a large number of Google derived WiFi out in the market.
Project Fi handsoff between different carriers and WiFi. With WiFi they don't have carrier charges.
I wouldn't be too surprised if Google somehow ties Project Fi into the "OnHub" effort. I'd also expect google making lots of loss-leader agreements with companies to offer lots of Google managed WiFi that will make the backhaul for Project Fi free.
802.15.4 (Score:2)
You have got to wonder what they have up their sleeve to add support for 802.15.4. This is the stuff that Zigbee runs, meaning all of a sudden, there is a gateway between (relatively) expensive (relatively) high-speed wifi devices and a whole lot of (relatively) inexpensive (relatively) low-speed internet-of-things devices, like SCADA of light switches, HVAC controls, home entertainment, etc.
Very interesting, indeed. What is behind door #2?
I need wires (Score:2)
My NAS is also on the wire. Never instrumented it, but seems to me that if I'm transferring data to/from my NAS then it's better for half the traffic to be over the air, the other
Re:Inject adds in my pron? (Score:4, Insightful)
Well, they know your entire browsing history, regardless of cookies or adblock or anything else.
Put a proxy in & they can even MITM your https connections.
Now their data of you is worth a lot more to the advertisers. CPMs go way up. Google gets more $$.
Alphabet gets to show why they're good at running companies.
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How does Google have your entire browsing history?
They know what you search for, and they know what sites you visit if you're stupid enough to let things like google-analytics not be blocked.
With this device they will, but right now Google sure as hell doesn't know your entire browsing history. The internet doesn't work that way.
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Sorry I forgot to add *would* when talking about this technology.
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> Put a proxy in & they can even MITM your https connections.
Paranoia is strong with you today. Explain to me how a Google router will MITM attack my HTTPS connection to Amazon.com when I am entering my credit card #?
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1.Have browser profiles for detecting your browser from it's behavior: connection handling, tcp packet timing, parallel connection count, cookie handling, request interval, dns caching behavor, resource refetching, caching settings, even favicon fetching interval and a lot more, it's called browser fingerprinting, they could use javascript injection too but that wouldn't be passive.
2.Determining if it will react to certificate authority changes. and proceed to next step if it doesn't.
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By using a proxy?
They've implemented zscalar at work. Now it intercepts https to your bank if you do banking at work.
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Paranoia is strong with you today. Explain to me how a Google router will MITM attack my HTTPS connection to Amazon.com when I am entering my credit card #?
In the case we're discussing, you've actually placed a hardware device on your network, with them in complete control of the firmware, that all of your traffic gets routed through. It is child's play, since your browser (regardless of which browser you use) already trusts their certificates, for them to proxy whatever the hell they want to. Unless you're religious about looking at certificates (or happen to notice that a site you would expect an EV cert from doesn't indicate such in your browser (green add
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Easy. Google has a trusted CA. If they get between any connection, they can MITM it.
Right, because no one would ever notice if Google's CA signed a certificate for amazon.com.
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How often do you check the entire signing chain of a certificate?
HPKP (HTTP Public Key Pinning) would solve this - and indeed, Google already does key pinning for its own properties in Chrome - but otherwise... it might eventually be noticed, but it would take a long time. That ignores the opportunities for targeted surveillance, too; if most peoples' traffic doesn't get intercepted, that doesn't mean *your* traffic doesn't get intercepted; you just have to check it yourself.
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You know, to keep you safe!
Yeah, because you know, before Google invented a consumer router, the NSA had obviously no way of getting in...
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Is the extra spying that comes with it included in the Cost?
Yes, that is free with all alphabet products.
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I live in a subdivision like many other people. There are 20+ wifi networks all around me. They are building more houses nearby.
5Ghz works well but 2.4Ghz is flooded with other networks.