Porsche Is Building a Tesla Competitor (bloomberg.com) 254
An anonymous reader writes: Back in September, Porsche unveiled a prototype for an electric vehicle. They were trying to gauge interest and figure out if they have the technical know-how to build one. Now, they've made the decision: Porsche's "Mission E" project will put an all-electric vehicle on showrooms by the end of the decade. Wolfgang Porsche said, "With Mission E, we are making a clear statement about the future of the brand." This is a reference, of course, to Porsche's parent company, Volkswagen, which has been in trouble for tampering with emissions standards recently.
VW Product (Score:2, Insightful)
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BMW's already beat them to it.
Et tu, REX?
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And we have a woosh!
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I think that was a joke referencing VW's dieselgate.
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And the fact that Porsche and VW beetles have always had their engines in the back.
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Yeah, we had a Beetle from the late 60s to the mid 70s. The engine looked like it should have been in a lawnmower or go-kart compared to the V8s our friends drove.
'bout time they got off their porsche (Score:2)
Playing catch-up (Score:2)
It's a pretty car. Unfortunately, the projected specifications of the Mission E indicate lower performance than the cars Tesla are making today. The only real advantage promised is faster charging -- from a network of high-voltage charging stations that don't exist yet.
Good luck with that.
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That's one thing I like about Tesla: they make electric cars that actually look good unlike the horrible abortion that is the Prius (sure sure, that's a hybrid). They showed that electric cars can be sexy rather than boring. This Porsche? I am sure it'll be an impressive car to drive, b
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Re: Playing catch-up (Score:2)
Re: Playing catch-up (Score:2)
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FTFY
Seriously, I drove a Porsche once. It was amazing. I don't know if they will be able to recreate the handling experience I had, but if they do then that will be a major advantage unless Tesla manages to pull a similar rabbit out of their ass.
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The Tesla Roadster was largely built by Lotus, and Tesla apparently poached all their "handling" expertise from Lotus. So. . . I don't really see Porsche (or anybody else) holding much advantage over that. They just need to build another sports car to really demonstrate it.
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The roadster was a heavy pig that cornered as well as a Lincoln town car. I'm sure putting the weight in that chassis made the Lotus guys cry.
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It's a pretty car. Unfortunately, the projected specifications of the Mission E indicate lower performance than the cars Tesla are making today.
So are almost all of the vehicles running Petrofuel. It probably isn't even a good idea to put that much performance in the hands of some drivers.
The only real advantage promised is faster charging -- from a network of high-voltage charging stations that don't exist yet.
Good luck with that.
Do you really think it is some sort of impossibility to put relatively simple Electrical charging systems in at a lot of places? and impossible to do it quickly? The infrastructure argument is possibly the worst argument against EV's.
It totally discounts the huge infrastructure needed to simply drill, pump, pipeline, refine, ship to storage, repump to trucks,
Re:Playing catch-up (Score:5, Interesting)
Tesla have shown what's possible in terms of building out a fast-charge network quickly. No other car make seems interested. When you ask them, they all say the same thing: "We don't want to get into the fueling business."
Even Nissan. . . Nissan's "charging network" consists of Nissan dealerships, which is not exactly convenient for travel. And just to make your trip even more of an adventure, each dealership has its own charging policies -- including, in some cases, only allowing charging by cars sold from that dealer! If you ask Nissan about building more charging stations, they repeat the same mantra: "We don't want to get into the fueling business."
Even Toyota. . . They're pushing hydrogen cars, and they admit that fueling infrastructure will be crucial. They're lobbying governments to fund it. Are they going to build any hydrogen fuel stations themselves? Nope. "We don't want to get into the fueling business."
Toyota. . . Nissan. . . Porsche. . . Prepare to have your lunch eaten by a car maker that wants to get into the fueling business.
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Palm, Inc.
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Palm, Inc.
Did anyone actually get fired or did they just run the business into the ground?
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Damn straight. "We're not in the fuelling / finance / IT / transport / insurance / refining business". Words uttered by MBAs who are afraid to be held accountable for taking a risky (but calculated) step into unknown territory. Just as no one "ever got fired for hiring IBM", no one gets fired these days for sticking to the company's core business. Never mind the fact that the stuff that isn't your core business can still give you a competitive advantage, but that obtaining such from external service providers will likely never yield that advantage. A few companies like Tesla get this. And that's the kind of company and management I'd like to work for. I'm still looking...
For Tesla it's a matter of survival. While some people buy a Tesla to own one, a lot of potential customers want a car that they can take on extended trips. The only way for Tesla to do that is develop their own charging network. Th eaten manufacturers, right now, view EVs as a sideshow demanded by regulations and a market theta may grow so it's worth starting to learn about it. They also realize the best way to address the range issue is to have a lot of charging locations, just like with gas vehicles, and
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What are you talking about? Tesla's can charge at all charging points.
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Hydrogen is just a stopgap measure, though. You have to use electricity to make the hydrogen, so in ten years when a car battery has 600+ miles range on a 20 minute charge, why bother?
Who wants to build out tens of thousands of hydrogen filling stations only to have them go obsolete within a decade? I can't see a big hydrogen network being built by anybody with any sense, and without that hydrogen cars won't make any headway.
One of the big advantages with battery powered cars is you already *have* electrici
Re: Playing catch-up (Score:2)
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"600+ miles on a 20 minute charge" - won't be easy to accomplish. The average EV gets ~3 miles per kWh so 600 miles is roughly 180kWh. Charging that from near-empty in 20 min means delivering an average power of 540 kW, not accounting for charging losses or heat buildup.
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Oops, that should have been 200 kWh, not 180, which make the rapid-charging case somewhat more difficult.
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In the UK Nissan (and to some extent Renault) built a charging network, in partnership with Ecotricity who provide almost all the energy from renewable sources. Unlike Tesla's chargers any car can use the Electric Highway with just an RFID card (which costs a nominal 5 quid).
As well as lack of sharing between some manufacturers, the lack of an agreed standard is annoying too. In Japan it's almost all CHAdeMO, in Europe it's a mix of CHAdeMO and CCS, and in the US I think it's a mix too. Then you have Tesla'
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As the batteries get better, they will mostly get smaller.
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Tesla have shown what's possible in terms of building out a fast-charge network quickly. No other car make seems interested. When you ask them, they all say the same thing: "We don't want to get into the fueling business."
Toyota. . . Nissan. . . Porsche. . . Prepare to have your lunch eaten by a car maker that wants to get into the fueling business.
They don't want to because, unlike Tesla, they don't have to. Tesla needs to convince buyers that they can take long trips without having to worry about a dead battery, if they want to grow sales beyond the novelty buyer. EV's are a rounding error for the other manufacturers so they don't really care if you can't drive it beyond the end of your street. So, Tesla chargers buyers $2K for access to their network and is building it out. Tesla also apparently has some issues with people using the stations as loc
They should name it "The Edison" (Score:2)
That is a STUPID headline (Score:2)
Porsche intends to build an ALL-ELECTRIC SPORTS car, not a "Tesla competitor". They're not even calling this "Mission E" a sedan. And you can be quite sure, it'll be hella more expensive than a Model S.
All electric sports car (Score:2)
Sounds like they're more building a competitor for the Tesla Roadster, which isn't even in production(right now).
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OK, a few points worth making. . .
The projected performance specs of the Mission E sports car are less than those of the current Tesla sedan. Tesla got their start making sports cars. Tesla have plans to produce sports cars again in the near-ish future.
So, even though you are correct to point out that these vehicles are in two different categories, it's not necessarily STUPID (in capital letters!) to compare them.
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Tesla made ONE model of sporty car but it was never intended to be their main business. And that was a small 2-seater that's really no match for the cars that made Porsche famous.
I expect Tesla to continue making & improving the Model S but they're not really competing in Porsche's space, except (possibly) against the Panamera and if the Model X catches on, the Cayenne. And it not likely that Porsche will deliver its 1st all-electric car at a competitive price point to even the top-end Model S.
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More expensive and less performance than the Tesla. That will win over absolutely no one. But not surprising given the disdain the Porsche management has shown for Tesla and electric cars in general.
Only after losing significant market share to Tesla has Porsche decided to build a car and they will screw it up big time because their leadership doesn't want to build electric cars. It's as simple as that.
Oh sure, they SAY it's all-electric... (Score:2, Insightful)
...but once it's off the test track, it turns out there's a hidden coal-powered steam engine in it.
Beginning of the end (Score:2)
So? (Score:2)
If they wait until "the end of the decade", they may be the only car manufacturer without an all EV model well before that time.
The reason for this is pretty simple (Score:2)
Don't think this solves anything (Score:2)
While I can admire any company that takes on an engineering challenge to make a product that can make them a profit the potential market for electric vehicles tend to largely be those that believe this is how we are going to combat global warming, which it will not.
Electric vehicles are coal powered vehicles. People may be able to convince me that powering an electric car from a coal fired plant would reduce the carbon emissions from the driver this is still only a very small part of the global warming pro
Reasons for Porsche (Score:2)
It's mainly because Porsche is subject to the EU's absurd CO2 emissions limitations, which hit every company alike - no matter if they produce small, lightweight cars that drive a lot in city traffic and don't last as long (like french cars), or if they produce expensive luxury cars. Electric cars don't produce CO2 (directly :-)), and therefore are counted as "not producing CO2". In the end, each company's "fleet average" is calculated.
Also, Porsche is planning ahead for a scenario where E-cars are more tha
Fixed that headline for you... (Score:2)
Fixed that headline for you...
"Porsche Is Building a car which it hopes will be a Tesla Competitor"
Battery material renewability and pollution issues (Score:2)
Electric cars are supposedly an environmentally friendly technology. Has anyone looked at the *long term* sustainability and renewability of the battery technology and materials that are being used in the manufacture of the batteries. The toxicity profile is another issue, toxicity becomes much more of the problem when you are dealing with huge quantities and volumes of material as in a battery.
I know people talk about hydrogen. I once read a science fiction story about a planet that drained its oceans and
Great just what the world needs. (Score:2)
Great just what the world needs.....Another toy that only rich people can afford.
I'lll start taking this seriously when the come out with an electric F150 that costs less than $30k.
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I'lll start taking this seriously when the come out with an electric F150 that costs less than $30k.
Why would you needlessly hamstring the electric pickup when the average F-150 sale price is over $38,000 and the high end trim packages cost over $45,000? Especially considering the likelihood that a Tesla pickup will out perform an F-150 in all relevant categories, including range. By rights, you should be willing to pay around $50,000 for a Tesla pickup.
No they're not (Score:2)
Just like when you buy and Apple iPhone or Apple Watch, the devices aren't particularly anything real special. It takes a few weeks before 50 other companies ship a damn near clone and often even better devices than that for half the price. And yet, iPhone and Apple Watch still sell like there's no tomorrow.
To make a Tesla compet
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In the US, families become famous and wealthy, for, well, little other than staying in the spotlight. Let's refer to it as the car-Ian effect, and not in a derogatory way.
I would clarify that in the case of Porsche, there is plausibly a damage-control scheme in place.
License Frame: "I wanna be a Tesla when I grow up" (Score:5, Insightful)
Why are so many trying to compete with a company that is barely profitable, ...
Tesla has only explored the very top of the "willingness to pay" (WTP) curve, they have proven their design and engineering skills, they are at an early stage and still figuring out how to scale manufacturing and their supply chain, they have a brand name that is incredibly "aspirational", they can't build them fast enough to satisfy demand, ... Now imagine getting the logistics/manufacturing sorted out and moving down the WTP curve.
FWIW, the license plate frame on a friend's Chevy Volt: "I wanna be a Tesla when I grow up". When she posted a picture of the frame to a Chevy Volt owner Facebook page she got a ton of thumbs up. A second friend drives a Chevy Volt and also wants a Tesla, he has a university alumni license plate frame though. The only thing keeping these two friends from a Tesla is affordability and Tesla is working on that.
So as far as promising business ventures go, I think Tesla may qualify.
especially since oil has dropped?
Did declining hay prices interfere with Ford?
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So as far as promising business ventures go, I think Tesla may qualify.
Possibly they qualify, but operating a business venture as complicated as becoming an automobile manufacturer is far more difficult than hiring a bunch of extremely talented idealistic engineers. Business is much more than design and engineering, sad to say (because we here on Slashdot usually refer to the other parts of a business as the beancounters and the marketing-fucks), and Tesla has yet to prove they can sell to a mass market an
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automobile manufacturer is far more difficult. . .
You do realize that EVs are orders of magnitude less complicated than ICE cars, right? Reading your post is like reading the post of a telecom exec about landlines, just as smartphones are starting to take off. More nostalgic than enlightening. . .
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All while the supercharger network is growing: http://supercharge.info/ [supercharge.info] It's already dense enough to travel to most of the interesting places in the US and it's only going to get better.
And yes, I own a Tesla.
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Tesla has only to maintain current sales of the Model S and deliver the Model X reservations up to the launch date to achieve 75000 cars for 2016 and then their annual revenue would be $7 billion. They're NOT "losing 4k per vehicle"; they're making costly investments to grow. In the car biz, that's what it takes.
Porsche is making a billion euro play for their "Mission E", and they already have most of the necessary facilities. This is for a low-volume car that won't be on sale for 3-5 years.
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"PC guys are not going to just figure this out. They're not going to just walk in,"
-- Ed Colligan, Palm CEO, 2006 on the prospect of Apple making a smartphone.
The time for skepticism on Tesla was 10 years ago. Now you just like a dinosaur who can't figure out why the sun isn't shining any more.
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Don't feed the oil troll. He's just acting as an agent, sensibly or insensibly, of the PR firm that came up with his talking points. Seriously, I'm starting to believe that the majority of "discourse" on comment boards is deliberate propaganda for one vested interest or another. And don't shrug your shoulders at this. These bastards are literally sabotaging democracy. They want you to apathetically shrug your shoulders and feel hopeless. When too many of us shrug our shoulders, democracy will die.
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Bullshit. That's like saying that Amazon used to lose money on every book they sold. In reality Amazon were building their business for future profitability, just as Tesla are.
"Symbolism"? Ha ha. You hate Tesla because you see their success as somehow attacking your anti-science climate denialism. What a loser you are.
All electric for performance (Score:3, Insightful)
Why are so many trying to compete with a company that is barely profitable, especially since oil has dropped?
Because a Tesla all electric 4 door luxury sedan that seats 5 is equaling a Porche 2 seater sports car with 580 horsepower at zero to 60mph.
Porche 2017 911 Turbo S: 2.8 seconds.
Tesla’s Model S P85D: 2.8 seconds.
http://www.digitaltrends.com/c... [digitaltrends.com]
http://techcrunch.com/2015/07/... [techcrunch.com]
Re: All electric for performance (Score:2)
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Okay, so once you've flipped over the sack of groceries in the back seat with g-force and your kid in his car seat is crying because you jarred him. Has the novelty worn off? You also just used a couple miles of your battery's energy. Hope it was 'cool' for you.
Hint: the grocery store is close to home and its charger. :-)
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There are charging spots at a LOT of groceries where people the people who own Teslas shop.
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There are only so many 'whole foods' chumps in the world. Tesla will have to sell to normal people some day.
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Even the guys who drive hundreds of cars, like the MotorTrend or Car & Driver reviewers, say that instant torque smile never fades.
If you floor the accelerator in any vehicle, you're wasting energy. At least you get some of that back in an EV through regen.
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Now you know why buying a Tesla is on my list of "must do" when they release their 500 mile range capacity vehicles. I'm a true car aficionado. I own way too many and love each and every one of them for a different reason. I push them all in one way or another and get maximum enjoyment from each and every one of them. None of them are trailer queens, they're all drivable and are driven. I also love the raw mechanics of an automobile and the engine itself.
But, I very much want to have an EV because I am an a
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Without a breakthrough in energy storage density, I don't think the 500-mile battery is practical unless one drives that distance on a very regular basis.
It just adds too much weight to already-heavy vehicles. You would also need the chemistry to be capable of much quicker charging. When we get to millions of EVs on the roads, having to stop for 30+ min to get a 1/2 - 3/4 charge is going to create traffic bottlenecks in a great many places.
I see 2 possible solutions to that - battery swap, which so far has
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Another solution that is sometimes proposed is inductance charging from the road, whilst actually in motion on a highway. Of course even if practical that's a long way off.
I think shorter term, that hybrids with small ICE engines are the answer to people who have range anxiety. Use battery most of the time, but have the ability to extend range with gasoline. I think for a lot of people it wouldn't matter if performance was reduced with gas - it's more about reducing the anxiety of range issues than actually
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Okay, so once you've flipped over the sack of groceries in the back seat with g-force and your kid in his car seat is crying because you jarred him. Has the novelty worn off?
For the most part, the car's price tag will keep it out of the hands of adolescent jerks*. One remarkable aspect of electric cars is that the torque is much more easily controlled than with an ICE. The car can be a pussycat with the accelerator at halfway and an amphetamine crazed tiger at full power. Also, Tesla has a button that selects between "Sport" or "Ludicrous" (or is it "Insane") acceleration modes. Hint: Use sport mode when driving kids home from the grocery.
You also just used a couple miles of your battery's energy. Hope it was 'cool' for you.
Get with the times -- we are not t
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BMW should have both an EV and a hybrid out shortly. When I bought mine, a 650i Coupe, of course - and yes, that one and yes it's "bespoke" - I was even invited to go to the factory and watch it being born and thought about it but declined, I was reading some of the paperwork at the dealership. Also, the low throaty-growl is awesome. It still makes me happy but I don't generally drive dangerously.
In fact, one of the reasons I like it most is that you'd never know there are 450 ponies under the hood and that
Re: All electric for performance (Score:2)
The Tesla grin never wears off.
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Buyers of Porsche SUVs are not thinking...period.
If someone drives out of a Porsche dealership with their heaviest car, they are a blithering moron.
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Now try following a gentle curve at that speed.
Porsche: didn't blink Tesla: embedded in concrete barrier.
No, the Tesla's autopilot will keep you in your lane. :-)
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"At 115 in a 35" - holy *bleep*
Was that on a public road? Whereabouts? Where I live you'd go directly to jail with your hands up & your pants down if caught doing that.
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There are some settings you can alter to improve the Tesla's track performance but they do seem to be too conservative with the battery power.
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Why are so many trying to compete with a company that is barely profitable, especially since oil has dropped?
Good thing they didn't stop building gasoline vehicles when some of the early companies were unprofitable, eh?
And the second part is silly. You figure that oil prices aren't going to head back up when they get the chance?
A combination of technology advances, useability advances, infrastructure coming on line - and a lot of people simply want EVs
As more companies produce them, it's probably just a sign they've figured out there is money in it. And the speed with which auto companies learn tends towar
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Why are so many trying to compete with a company that is barely profitable, especially since oil has dropped?
Because in 5-10 years oil is back up, the tech is more advanced, consumers are more environmentally conscious, and there's a big market.
The company who knows how to make the electric car that people want to buy will make a lot of money, Porsche wants to be that company.
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Why are so many trying to compete with a company that is barely profitable, especially since oil has dropped?
There is a difference between barely profitable versus investing all of your profits into future production capacity. One route leads to stagnation, while the other leads to future growth.
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I am reminded of a conversation that I had with a guy who was a comp sci grad who was with me when I started my business. This was quite some years ago but I think it's still salient.
I was going to invest in having some research done by a local university. He was adamant that it was a waste of time and money. I explained that we needed to stay ahead of the competition and he pointed out that we had no real competition. I agreed that we had none but said, "True. But we will."
Re: Doesn't make sense (Score:2)
Gas would have to be 50 cents a gallon to compete with the cost to charge a Tesla.
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Porsche is aware that electric cars can do performance as well as economy.
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Because the writing's on the wall. Electric cars are the future, and that future is coming quick.
I don't share your optimism. There are very real limits on how much energy density that can be obtained in a battery, and still make it robust enough to handle being bumped around in a vehicle. There are also very real limits on charging and discharging rates before a battery will be damaged.
We might see an end to fossil fuels but that does not mean the end of the ICE powered vehicle. A lot of research has gone into the synthesis of hydrocarbons lately. The US Navy is big on funding this. They have air
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There are very real limits on how much energy density that can be obtained in a battery, and still make it robust enough to handle being bumped around in a vehicle.
Oh really? Where do you suppose that is?
https://qph.is.quoracdn.net/ma... [quoracdn.net]
The oil industry would like us to believe we're into diminishing returns on battery improvements. The reverse is true.
As to being "bumped around" if gasoline were being proposed as a new fuel these days it would never be allowed. You forget what a dangerous substance cars are already using, without actually having too many incidents.
As for you're other comments, they are pie-in-the-sky. EVs are real and actual products. They're not jus
Re: Doesn't make sense (Score:5, Insightful)
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I've always wondered what the long-term AC method to follow discussions is. Registered users get notified when there is a reply. Do you make a bunch of bookmarks and keep manually checking or something?
Re: Doesn't make sense (Score:2, Funny)
You post something and hit refresh until you see it go to +5 funny and then move on to the next thing... That's what I do. (different long-term AC)
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Static == Sanity
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Yes, it does.
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What does being AC have to do with it?
I've been on ./ since pre-Y2K and have never bothered with an account: does that make the conviction of my beliefs any less authentic?
Yes it does. I normally don't engage with AC's since it's impossible to follow a conversation.
The value of a forum is being able to post your opinion, have others challenge those, then having to justify your position in a logocal and reasonable matter. Simply firing off ad-hoc comments anonymously doens't really acheive much, which is why AC's generally get ignored.
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Tesla won't exist in 4 years. Mark this post.
What a bizarre notion. Even if Tesla doesn't sell a single electric car 4 years from now, they will still exist, and they'll be substantially profitable too. Selling batteries to Walmart and data center operators around the world. Anywhere there is a daily swing in electricity prices, Tesla will make money. And they won't have to deal with any icky, sticky, picky consumers, either. That's all B2B sales, with lovely B2B profit margins. Tesla will still be around in 40 years. Tesla is likely to be arou
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For non moving applications lead-acid still rules.
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I invested quite a bit in Tesla but I'll be unloading that investment in the upcoming year - probably. I bought 2000 shares back when they were about $24 each. Let's just say, I'm happy with that investment - thank you for hyping it for me Slashdot. I'll probably wait for the increase we'll likely see with their next battery release and next model release and then unload them - I've made more than enough on my investment. Someone else can have a turn.
I did similarly with Yahoo! which I sold about a year ago
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During that same period? I don't specifically recall any losing dollar value exactly. At least not significantly so. However, some did not gain enough to be worth it due to the increase being less than inflation. At least not that I'm able to recall. Keep in mind, I don't just sell when it starts to decline but wait it out - it has been a good policy and treated me well so far. I ran the numbers about six months ago and, keeping the first year (slightly more) numbers in there, I'm averaging about a 17% incr
Re:Electric Porsche (Score:5, Funny)
I never get my Tesla Roadster out of first gear.
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Zero to 60 ... 4 door Sedan equals Porche (Score:2)
Porche 2017 911 Turbo S: 2.8 seconds.
Tesla’s Model S P85D: 2.8 seconds.
http://www.digitaltrends.com/c... [digitaltrends.com]
http://techcrunch.com/2015/07/... [techcrunch.com]
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Are you going to have more fun driving to work in a Tesla or a 911 Turbo?
As someone who's done both. The Tesla wins hands down for me. Now there's a car with the gonads to keep an explosion powered piece of crap in the dust which is also an absolute dream to drive when stuck in traffic.
There's absolutely NOTHING nice, NOTHING AT ALL nice about driving a sports car anywhere other than a racetrack. Which is also the same reason the Lotus Europa spent most of it's life in the garage while I drove a crappy little automatic Mazda to work. The Telsa is a wonderful change in comparison
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I derive enjoyment from shifting a 6-speed on a hair-pin turn and the roar of an overpowered engine.
And people on the wrong side of the previous technology shift derived enjoyment from the clip clop of hooves and the crack of the whip.
People who have actually tried Tesla's prefer them.
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Might be true some day, when the get the weight of the batteries way down.
For now, electric cars are pigs in corners.
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I enjoy shifting into turns, and I promise you, my car doesn't "fake" any type of "engine vroom" though speakers.
No, it fakes the cabin audio the old fashioned way, mechanically.
"Electronically synthesized noise is not a Porsche solution, so the engineers developed a new Sound Symposer that is standard on both versions of the car (911). An acoustic channel picks up intake vibrations between the throttle valve and air filter and a membrane incorporated in the channel reinforces the vibrations and transmits them as an engine sound into the cabin. The system is driver activated or deactivated via a “Sport”
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I suppose because it was their best selling car in China.
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Excuse me, but if I were to buy a Porsche, I want a bitchin turbo-charged 6-speed with the awesome suspension and braking they're known for.
If you haven't bought one, as your "If" comment tells us, it merely tells Porsche they don't have a customer.